Why are Kiritsugu and Archer so popular despite the point being to not idealize them?

>>279591781 (OP)
they wanted to be heroes, despite everything they sacrificed they ended alone and betrayed by the world they tried to protect.

>>279591781 (OP)
They are powerful people with strong and righteous convictions. Kiritsugu's whole thing is the edgy "for the greater good" mindset. Him fully dedicating himself to that is respectable. Archer is just a cooler and wiser Shirou. Thus since Shirou is a noble person, albeit due to a huge amount of survivor's guilt, Archer being a more extreme version of that makes him interesting.

>>279591781 (OP)
did you miss the entire point that archer is plagued by self-doubt that shatters once he remembers how he used to be?

it is one of the greatest scenes nasu has ever written

>>279592250
>Archer is cooler and wiser
Lmao
His entire character is the opposite of wise.

>>279591781 (OP)
It's really that simple.

>>279591781 (OP)
Because people relate to them

>>279592532
>he's not wise even though he lived shirou's ideas to the fullest until he got executed for it then was forced to be a slave to them in the afterlife and realized maybe it was a mistake

>>279592532
Wiser doesn't mean wise. With that said, I would call doing a pointless paradoxically suicide more wise than, "I will save everyone because I my body still gud". UBW arc is all about Shirou directly being confronted by his suicidal "hero" qualities and learning to surpass them.

>it's another thread of retards not getting the shirou and archer angle
Every fucking time.

>>279591781 (OP)
I hate Kiritsugu, frankly. But the story honestly doesn't do enough to really discredit Archer's argument and his life largely speaks for itself. Shirou's dream is not beautiful, it's fucking retarded. Just imagine some random Japanese weirdo going to the middle east and somehow thinking he can unfuck that situation by being heroic. No shit it ended with him being hanged, if anything he's lucky he lasted as long as he did.

>>279594100
What IS the angle then?

>>279593846
Experience isn't wisdom. In cases like this, it can actually cloud one's better judgment.

>>279594101
I agree about Archer not being discredited, but just to qualify, that was never the point of Shirou's dream. While Kiritsugu admires salvation, Shirou admires the savior. As Kotomine suggested at the very beginning, wanting to save people is preceded by them requiring salvation from some suffering, i.e. wanting them to suffer. In this sense, truly ending suffering would be self-defeating. The inevitable selfishness of it all is why the story ultimately leads to HF and LE, but with UBW of course Nasu wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

>>279594982
I get that. I just find it hard to sympathize with. Mind you, I get that Shirou is fucked in the head and probably beyond saving and this is pretty much him copping. But I can't really see that as beautiful as much as just kind of pathetic.

>The inevitable selfishness of it all is why the story ultimately leads to HF and LE, but with UBW of course Nasu wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
Honestly why I'm just kind of down on the UBW route as a whole.

>>279594982
Ending suffering is not wanting people to suffer in the first place.
A baby not suffering dying of malnutrition is one

>>279594982
>>279595797
>"You should know. Your wish will not come true unless there is a clear evil. Even if it is not something you approve of, a superhero requires a villain to defeat."
>"No, you do not have to gloss over it. Your worries are right for a human being."
>“You have no reason to fight, huh? Why do you say that now? You had no reason to fight from the very beginning.

What did Kirei mean by this?

>>279594982
All of that's just semantics. People will suffer no matter what. It's not as if Shirou is actively wishing for people to suffer, nor is he creating circumstances that cause suffering. To claim that the desire to save others is actually a sin is the most fedorafag nonsense ever.

All Kirei is truly doing is taking logic to its most extreme conclusion. He doesn't twist the truth, but he recontextualizes it to create turmoil. If Kirei were the end-all be-all to all truths, then there is not a single action you could take that isn't fundamentally evil.

For me it's Daijuuji Kurou, the greatest Seigi no Mikata

Read
The
Fucking
VN

Archer didn't really regret his life. What he regretted was his death. Archer thoughtlessly threw away his afterlife hoping he could use it to help people forever. But what he got was an eternity of killing people over and over and over. While people are inevitably saved by his actions as a Counter Guardian, Archer would never be able to see that salvation for himself. All he could ever see was pain, suffering and death, forever. This is what he meant when he said that he was betrayed by his ideal.

Archer is a Shirou who never really thought about the consequences. He mindlessly, mechanically performed his role as a hero to the end, thoughtlessly made a deal with the planet to become a Counter Guardian, and only after it was too late did he learn his mistake. But he doesn't regret his life. He only regrets his death. His afterlife is an eternal hell.

Something a lot of people fail to catch is that so long as Shirou doesn't become a Guardian, he can lead a more or less satisfying life by his own standards.

>>279596506
That's what I said.

>>279596737
>All of that's just semantics
It isn't, just like the process of dying isn't the same as being dead and you can't kill something that was never alive. You're taking a narrow-minded consequentialist perspective. It's an ontological problem of desires, not a practical one of actions.
>To claim that the desire to save others is actually a sin
No one claimed that, retard.

>>279596998
None of that actually matters in the grand scheme of things. There is nothing wrong with wanting to help others. Sure, it would be better if people didn't need to be saved at all, but that's not reality. To wish to help others isn't actually the same as wishing for them to suffer. The wish to save others wouldn't exist to begin with if people didn't suffer.

>>279597079
>None of that actually matters in the grand scheme of things
It absolutely matters when being able to tell the difference is both how Shirou justifies his efforts as not being meaningless (as the other anon said, people will suffer no matter what) and how he ultimately guides himself to a healthier, more satisfying way of pursuing his dreams.
>There is nothing wrong with wanting to help others
Again, no one said there was.
>Sure, it would be better if people didn't need to be saved at all, but that's not reality.
Yes, that's what sets apart Kiritsugu and Shirou.
>To wish to help others isn't actually the same as wishing for them to suffer.
Correct, the former entails the latter, so it includes it among other, better things.
>The wish to save others wouldn't exist to begin with if people didn't suffer.
Correct. Again, Kiritsugu wishes for the latter, which is what sets apart him and Shirou.

If this is supposed to be an argument, there's pretty clearly a failure to communicate going on.

The difference between Kiritsugu and Shirou can easily be defined by their opposing attitudes towards the Holy Grail. To Kiritsugu, the Grail was his final hope at salvation, whereas Shirou didn't really care for it. Kerry struggled with reality. He couldn't accept the world for what it was. That's why, despite having been retired for a couple years now, when the Einzberns approached him with a chance at the Grail, he leapt at it like a starving dog. In spite of his dream being to save others, he grew to hate the world and humanity.

Kiritsugu's mindset is very similar to that of Makiri Zolgen, Amakusa Shirou, Charles the Great and Kirschtaria Wodime, with Goetia taking it to its logical conclusion. It's rooted in a deep-seated dissatisfaction or disgust towards how the world is, and a desire to change it into something more palatable. The irony of their whole-hearted desire for salvation is that it's ultimately rooted in misanthropy.

>>279596882
VNs are even worse honestly.

>>279591781 (OP)
Gunna be honest, every person I've spoken to with a kiritsugu pfp is about comparable to a chimpanzee in intelligence, but that's pretty much fate fans in general I guess. Every fate fan is either
>a jump tard who takes dragon ball and one piece extreme seriously (this is your kiritsugu/archer types)
>weighs 600 lbs (Saber types)
>a discord groomer (rin/sakura types)
>a guy with actual illicit content on his hard drive (Illya types)
>a transexual (ryougi types)
Please note, someone does not become a "type" unless I have at least 10 personal examples of encountering this.

>>279591781 (OP)
Because Kiritsugu did nothing wrong.

Why is Fate so popular despite being complete trite?
The formula is just this over and over again
>explain why power is good and guy is totally badass
>other guy has super special power that just happens to negate it
All in service of boring characters and a boring plot.

>>279600061
>Why is Fate so popular despite being complete trite
It's jumpshit for troubled teenagers. People ultimately get wrapped up in the gacha and just become mentally warped for life.

>>279591781 (OP)
Teenagers just like seeing "cool" character doing "cool" things. They don't understand or care to comprehend the philosophy behind them.

>>279600061
You left out cooking scenes and ichthyic metaphors.

>>279600061
Because it has characters bouncing off one another and conflicting ideals and thoughts that actually matter.
It is just a well written franchise.

>>279600908
Why would you go on the internet to tell not just one, but two lies?

>>279600937
>my favorite anime? mushishi, I am so smart!
Average FATE hater.

>>279600061
>explain why power is good and guy is totally badass
>other guy has super special power that just happens to negate it
Uninitiated. Fate is good because it shits on powerlevelfags like you.

What part of "Because the wish of saving someone was beautiful" don't you understand. Archer spells it out for you.
Kerry and Archer are just hiding their pure child-like dreams behind 9001 layers of hot topic edge because they have seen some shit. And lots of people can relate to such a feeling watching your child like wonder get crushed by the real world.

>>279591781 (OP)
>Liking a character means you idolize them
People who truly like Archer know exactly what sort of person he is.

>>279594982
>Just imagine some random Japanese weirdo going to the middle east and somehow thinking he can unfuck that situation by being heroic
>saying this like it's not set in an urban fantasy world with magecraft and that said Japanese weirdo isn't himself an inhuman mage with magic circuits and combat training his whole life by that point
it's not like in Nasuverse it's where outside of Japan the rest of the world is literally just our real world and also even if it was, Emiya would be dropping terrorists/soldiers/whoever left and right with his abilities by that point. The middle east is also obviously not even the only warzone setting Emiya travelled to, he went everywhere saving people.
>>279596610
>>279596737
something that a lot of people don't seem to get about Kirei's character is that everything he says and does is to try to maximize suffering in others around him even in really minute ways since this is just fundamentally his nature. For example, even the fact that he drones on and on with exposition is something he actually does intentionally because he knows it frustrates and bores people, the infamous mapo tofu scene where he's obnoxiously eating in front of Shirou and winding him up offering him the painfully spicy food is another example of this. Nasu also once said that Kirei deliberately holds really depressing masses/sermons in his church at the end of the year so that people's memories of both the end of the year and new year's are simultaneously ruined.

Basically, Kirei makes this point to Shirou about how he secretly needs evil to exist to be a hero to subvert and twist Shirou's heroism and mentally fuck with him (it's also Kirei subtly justifying why he himself necessarily must exist since questioning why he was born evil is also part of his character).

>>279600908
>conflicting ideals and thoughts that actually matter
"Hurrdur when you want to help people you're actually wishing that people get in trouble!!11!"
"Oh god I'm such a terrible person and not someone trying to do the best they can in a world where people will inevitably get in trouble. Time to have a moral crisis for 60 hours and decide that the best solution to this false paradox it is to become a simp for some dumb whore!"
Nasu is a hack.

>>279600061
>>279603667

>>279596945
the fact that Archer will just return to the Throne of Heroes after the events of stay/night and won't even remember his character development and will just be reset back into his eternal hell again like nothing changed still makes me really sad to think about
Archer is legitimately one of the most tragic characters in fiction