>final boss doesn't take the protagonist seriously

Why is UBW considered best route again?

>>280052203 (OP)
>final boss doesn't take the protagonist seriously
Why would he exactly? Shirou is a third-rate magus without his servant, and he also makes shitty copies of Gilgamesh's treasure for extra insult. The idea that Gil would treat him as an equal would damage his pride.

Also, one thing people don't really bring up is that Gilgamesh fights without his armor a lot more frequently than just this fight, even against other servants in the HGW. The only person he even remotely takes seriously is Saber. You could argue that he takes Lancer "seriously" as well, since we see him armored up for the fight in the Church crypt. But Gilgamesh was already confronting Saber before Lancer showed up as a distraction, so it's not like he's going to disable his armor while it's already active. The only other instance we see him armored is when he kills Caster in Emiya's courtyard, but again, he doesn't actually care about Caster in this instance, she's collateral in his quest to confront Saber.

People who claim that UBW's final fight is a lazy contrivance were clearly speed-reading the Fate and UBW routes.

>>280052203 (OP)
everything nasu writes features one or multiple impossibly overpowered antagonists that the main character has zero chance of winning against, but then when it's time for a final confrontation said antagonist is incredibly incompetent.

>>280052203 (OP)
It's a porn game. Don't take it too seriously. Good guys are good and win, bad guys are bad and lose. Simple as

>>280054410
Kind of stupid to call it a porn game when H-scenes are around 1 percent of the game.

>>280052472
It's not lazy but it's certainly contrived.

>>280052203 (OP)
Because majority of UBWfags are shounentards?

>>280052472
>Shirou is a third-rate magus without his servant
Shirou was able to keep up 1on1 against Archer near the end of UBW, so no matter how you twist it, Shirou with projections in late UBW was servant-tier. He could have beaten pretty much any other master other than maybe Caster-reinforced Kuzuki who was also servant-tier. At that point he was stronger than the likes of Kotomine or any so-called "first-rate magus" like Kayneth.
Of course, Shirou's power got considerably weaker after UBW due to a lot of the power gained from resonating with Archer fading away, but at the peak of his resonance Shirou really was Archer with somewhat weakened attributes.

>take him seriously
>gets squished

Gil could have won that fight since UBW runs out of mana with Shirou bailed out by redman at the end.

>>280052203 (OP)
>UBW Shirou got lucky because Gilgamesh didn't wear his armor
>fucking Fate Shirou, the weakest Shirou, had to deal with an armored Gilgamesh after getting most of his bones broken

>>280052784

Evil and arrogance have been happily married for centuries.

>>280052203 (OP)
HF has been considered the best route by most people for at least a decade at this point.

>>280057323
held down by Shitkura unfortunately

>>280056331
Gil exists to job, like wow this guy is stronger than Gil we really have to take them seriously now

Reminder

>>280057323
HF just benefits from holding all the important lore reveals and fleshing out the only good villain in the entire VN, but storytelling wise it is the absolute worst. UBW at least picks up the slack massively in the latter half even if the writing itself is balls to the walls shounen.

>>280057509
>but storytelling wise it is the absolute worst

Explain

>>280057577
After a third of the way through its structure goes to complete shit, it becomes a repetitive drag with a completely nonsensical spreading out of plot beats and characterization. The period between Sakura falling ill and heading to the forest with Kirei is really fucking bad in this regard. And after that shit feels like it happens because they made such poor use of what came before, and also are kinda hitting all the barrels mindlessly to just unload everything left. The finale ends up feeling like a wet fart too as a result, despite the content having the potential to be great.

>>280057731
>My sin can't never be forgiven and I will be punished by it
>magically off-screen his atonement for his sin
You rike?

this is why stay night is the best route. shirou being completely retarded gets saber killed.

>>280057509
Each Route has cool reveals.

>>280057509
>storytelling wise it is the absolute worst
That's easily Fate. The story just kind of dies after Berserker gets defeated and makes up new villains out of nowhere because it was saving the other servants for UBW. Kirei and Gilgamesh get fleshed out later on, but the way they're presented in Fate makes them feel like placeholder villains. HF is more like a Hisui route-style slow burn that sets up a grand finale (and the movies do away with the slow burn for those who couldn't handle it).

>>280052784
This happens with suprising frequency in japanese slop. They love making the big bad overwhelmingly powerful to the point of seeming unbeatable to the audience, but they forget to think of a way for the MC to plausibly defeat him, so they make the big bad act retarded or the MC pull a huge new power out of his ass at the 11th hour (i.e. "So it's the same type of stand as Star Platinum").

>>280052203 (OP)
it's less embarrassing

>>280058044
What's wrong with Kirei and Gil in Fate route? They're totally fine.

It's crazy to think the Fate route had the best final fight, all things considered. Two 1v1s, with Kirei getting Azoth'd and Gil screaming Seiba's name out as he jobs for the first time in the story.
UBW is okay depending on the medium, but all it really amounted to was Archer somehow coming back at the last second to save teh dae. If anything the Assassin battle felt more climactic and well-written
HF is in some ways better but worse in most. Kirei boxing match was cool and so was Sakura's breakdown and Zouken's revelation, but the Zelretch scene was the most blatant example of powerscaling beamu BS in the entire VN. Seiba v. Ridah was also undercooked
In reality the biggest problem in the VN is that the action peaked halfway through, ie. when the route-centric reveal had just happened. Seiba v. Basakah, Shirou v. Archa, and the Medusa reveal. Dark Sakura happens so late in HF that I'd hardly call it a peak.

>>280058119
How would you rate Seiba vs Shirou in Sparks Liner High?

>>280058115
Kirei seems like a generic "evil for the sake of being evil" villain until HF explains how it's literally pathological and something he genuinely struggled with, and Gilgamesh is just a typical NTR dudebro (his personality suddenly shifting to being a genocidal roadblock for Shirou to show off against in UBW isn't much better, though).

>>280058115
Fate Kirei problem is that we don't know much about him at the time.
Rereading Fate Route is more enjoyable than reading it for the first time because you understand why certain characters act certain ways. Like how Kirei tried to kill Shirou with the mud that slowly killed Kiritsugu. Kirei did mention it, but you didn't know the full detail about Kirei and Kiritsugu relationship at the time.

Fake thread
Fake posts
>30 / 4 / 2 / 1

>>280058119
>Seiba v. Basakah
o muh caliburn.
I swear Fate Shirou could have caught Archer off-guard with that shit.

>>280058044
The crux of the Fate route is Shirou and Saber's relationship, and the structure around it is solid despite the villains being whatever. There's a push and pull that dies and heats up in a way that keeps things tense but also hits and blindsides you when it's right. HF's structure isn't a slowburn, it's hollow meandering until they remember their time is almost up.

>>280058269
I'd call it just about perfect. FSN is all about the relationship between Servant and Master. Even if it's the most evident in the Fate route, UBW and HF also emphasize it. Sparks Liner High is essentially the final bit of payoff for Shirou and Seiba's bond (if you want to exclude Last Episode, which I don't).
It's all one massive callback to start of the VN: instead of Shirou holding back his vow to protect Saber from danger, he's holding back his emotions that come from him having to take her down.
It's a bit hard to articulate it, but Dark Saber (or Alter if you're inclined) being defeated by his hands is the ironic answer to the drama that existed in the Fate route regarding Shirou not wanting to let his little qt3.14 sword girl fight for him. He proved to her that he'd protect a person like her from even the strongest of foes if he put his mind and soul to it, but also inadvertently confirmed that they'd be nothing in the HGW without eachother. Shirou's spirit, aspirations, and body had already been destroyed in the time between him losing Saber and confronting her for the last time, but his mind managed to break only when he said his final goodbye to the Servant he cherished dearly.
Hell, he even proved that they were equals in strength by using a "special move" that Seiba had specifically told him not to attempt until he was as strong as his opponent. If there's one thing Nasu's really good at, it's making setup that you didn't even realize was setup 50 hours in hit you like a truck the moment it gets utilized.
>>280058551
That's a question mark, dummy
>>280058609
>I swear Fate Shirou could have caught Archer off-guard with that shit.
Archer's amazing at jobbing to Shirou's unconventional, stubborn tactics. Railgun Seiba from FHA is the greatest example of that

>>280058858
>being defeated by his hands is the ironic answer to the drama that existed in the Fate route regarding Shirou not wanting to let his little qt3.14 sword girl fight for him.
Don't forget her shitting on him for suggesting a special move to defeat a strong opponent, only for her to lose to one by him.

>>280058858
I am surprised this scene didn't cause many salt among Rin/Archer shippers.

>>280058946
Considering Archer's just Shirou with even more bluffing and trauma, I don't think it was that severe. FHA makes him out to be an anti-hero loner anyway, especially with how he treats Shirou and disregards Rin as his Master.
Besides, I find the pairing strange. If Rin knows Shirou will grow an extra 20cm and lose his suicidal tendencies anyway, why go for his disheveled self?

>>280058858
>Hell, he even proved that they were equals in strength by using a "special move" that Seiba had specifically told him not to attempt until he was as strong as his opponent. If there's one thing Nasu's really good at, it's making setup that you didn't even realize was setup 50 hours in hit you like a truck the moment it gets utilized.
I'm so fucking glad somebody else noticed this.

>>280056331
>Gil could have won that fight since UBW runs out of mana with Shirou bailed out by redman at the end.
You say, that but if you actually think about it it's all Gilgamesh's own fault for not "double tapping" Archer when he "killed" him. He would have won or at the very least taken down Shirou with him, but no, he just had to be a careless fool.

>his best scene is filler

>>280056002
>keep up with Archer near the end of UBW
Are you retarded? Archer could have killed Shirou anytime. He just wants to break him.
>>280056331
Technically Gil would've won if Archer didn't use Rho Aias to protect Shirou during his chant.
Like seriously, is he the only one who has to chant to activate his RM? Which moron wouldn't kill him right away?

>>280059764
>Archer could have killed Shirou anytime
Wasn't the entire point about Archer causing a time paradox big enough to end his life? Sure, he toyed with him, but he wanted to kill him off the get-go. Whether or not Shirou broke wasn't part of his goal

>>280052203 (OP)
>Nasu

>>280056002
>Shirou was able to keep up 1on1 against Archer near the end of UBW, so no matter how you twist it
Archer wasn't even fighting back during that fight. He's pretty much just on the defensive while Shirou is struggling to even land a hit, it's pretty clearly written in the VN. In the end, the fight is purely ideological. Even Rin points out how pointless the actual fight is.

>>280060783
>Wasn't the entire point about Archer causing a time paradox big enough to end his life?
It was cope, and he knew it. He existed outside of time, so his fate was eternally doomed. He didn't want to see another hypocrite like him.

>>280052203 (OP)
>best route again?

u wot, mate? best route is loli isekai.

>>280060847
That's Takeuchi.

New Saber-face

>>280056331
>almost loses to Shirou and has to pull Ea
>gets instagibbed by Shirou and Kuro
This bitch isn't much better

Gilgamesh doesn't take anybody seriously. It's his fatal flaw. He's an arrogant ass who stands so far above everyone else he doesn't register any of them as threats. Shirou was able to win because Gilgamesh kept fucking around up until the last minute when he realized MAYBE he should stop fucking around and whip out Ea.

He would beat full power Gilgamesh

>>280061975
>traceu onu
yeah no shit he'd beat anyone he's the protag

>>280061786
The Forehead of Promised Victory

>>280060783
Nope. Archer is locked as Alaya's janny no matter what he does. It doesn't matter if Shirou breaks. He was basically throwing a temper tantrum in UBW.
It's funny but I like him more in HF and during Miyuverse when he was geniunely happy and smug to see Shirou not being his retard self.