Why did Fate/Zero's nihilistic brutal realism themes about society filter so Stay Night fans?

it was dumb that kirei died to this guy and got grail-revived

>>280745688 (OP)
Zero reaches the same conclusion as Stay Night, just from the opposite angle.

Ehh whatever they both suck, just to different degrees
Kuso gacha franchise

Urobutcher himself said that his shtick is writing gloomy and edgy stuff, especially in comparison to Nasu who rejects nihilism and pointless agony whenever he can.
Zero is also meant to serve as a complimentary piece to Stay Night. You read Zero, get angry at everything being dark and Saber being lame, tear the books to pieces, and boot up Stay Night to re-read it right after. That's what he said, not me. FZ falls apart when you view it as its own standalone story

>>280745688 (OP)
Saber ntr'd him.

>>280746270
In Zero, all of the combatants are older and seem to have more realization that it is actually a life or death fight with a lot on the line.

In Stay night, nobody takes the war seriously.

>>280745688 (OP)
And with a wicked sense of humor.

>>280745688 (OP)
it's just a gacha game lol

>>280745688 (OP)
Cannot take Zero seriously when Tokiomi sacrificed all the Assassins to reveal Rider's NP when he could have saved some for his plans. It was incredibly retarded.

>>280745688 (OP)
>Fate/Zero
>nihilistic brutal realism
hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>280747880
>In Stay night, nobody takes the war seriously.
This is probably the single dumbest talking point people use to try and argue about Zero's superiority. You had Ryuunosuke and Waver faffing around for most of the story while the "serious" Masters still floundered their chances due to emotional reasons or ego clouding their decision-making. And that's without mentioning all the Servants being even dumber than their Masters.
The 5th war was the way it was because
>it happened only 10 years after the 4th
>Matous and Tohsakas were ill-prepared
>Illya was designed entirely to be a catalyst and not a combatant
>Zouken had (self-admittedly) gone insane centuries ago
and most important of all,
>Bazett and Atram were taken care of before the war began
Kirei personally made sure that the most dangerous adversaries were either mindbroken or dead before they had a chance of fighting him. He died in Fate and UBW from being overconfident about his position as a Master. People complain about the cast being full of dumb kids as if Rin and Shirou turning the tables on Kirei's schemes isn't a crucial part of the plot in each and every route

>>280745688 (OP)
>nihilistic brutal realism
Did you somehow miss that Kiritsugu wasn't in fact a "nihilistic brutal realist"

>>280747880
>>280748919
His strengths are in character building, and in nihilistic realism (what some might call edginess)

The Holy Grail War was always a tragedy, Urobuchi depicted it realistically.

But Shirou is the definition of self-insert. He's suicidal, has survivors guilt, he gets magic powers and fucks harem of girls, hero mentality where he thinks that he can "save the world". Every manchild otaku and teenage retard thinks that "he's literally me", or at least relates to him.

HF is the only realistic route.

>>280745688 (OP)
Is it really nihilistic brutal realism? Nearly everyone in the series is an idealist. You don't have anyone who is literally a soulless mercenary.

QRD on the Three Families and the 1st Grail War?

>>280749190
>His strengths are in character building
yer joking
Nasu is on a completely another level in terms of writing characters, just compare Kirei in Zero and Stay Night
I haven't seen the doll show but even in Madoka the only character that's really developed is Homura and that's it.

>>280749313
The Einzberns specialize in homunculi as vessels and have been chasing the Grail for a millennia. The Matous specialize in worm stuff and dark arts and have been chasing the Grail for 5 centuries. The Tohsakas use jewels as containers and tools for their elemental magic and collaborated with the other two families 200 years ago in search for what's basically Heaven. Einzberns made the grails, Matous made the Servant contracts and seals, and the Tohsakas provided Fuyuki and turned it into the ideal grounds for the ritual called Heaven's Feel/HGW.
The first war was basically a nothingburger and ended very quickly with no results. Afterwards, they bumped the participant count to 7 with the use of outsider magi and the promise of the Grail granting wishes, and managed to make a somewhat normal second war work. Though things only started getting juicy in the 3rd war, with Avenger and families like the Edelfelts and Yggdmillennias being contenders

>>280747880
They're both based on battle royale, the difference is that it has a darker tone
>>280748050
He's pampered, he thought that he had it in the bag because of the priest + gilgamesh and was never stabbed in the back before. Gilgamesh is an overpowered servant.

>>280746689
Native isekai franchise

>>280747880
If Kirei hadn't messed with the war, Bazzett and Sétanta would've killed everyone before they could react.

>>280751571
>Sétanta
Who?

>>280745688 (OP)
He kinda sucks in FGO

>>280747403
I wonder what the original art for this template is.

>>280751652
The dog

>>280749190

The way Shirou came around to his ideals was fucked up yes, but plenty of mature, well adjusted people maintain some kind of moral framework more broad than “I do not give a single fuck about anyone outside my most immediate circle”. Is every altruistic lawyer, firefighter, or aid worker an otaku manchild because they have a moral circle which extends outside of a single person?

>>280752583
>Is every altruistic lawyer, firefighter, or aid worker an otaku manchild
If they are suicidal, has survivors guilt, he gets magic powers and fucks harem of girls, hero mentality where he thinks that he can "save the world", then yes.

>>280752583
>“I do not give a single fuck about anyone outside my most immediate circle”

What's wrong with this

>>280752583
Those are either showing off for personal gain or have some sort of mental problem.

>>280747338
>especially in comparison to Nasu who rejects nihilism and pointless agony whenever he can
Tsukihime is right there

>>280755311
That was among his first works and he himself admits he moved away from things like it and DDD to pursue more lighthearted stories. No wonder FGO reads like a shitpost at times

>>280747880
>In Zero, all of the combatants are older and seem to have more realization that it is actually a life or death fight with a lot on the line.
Hot Wheels was literally treating it like a showmatch where two guys slap fight each other with magic rather than a life or death match. That's why Kerry fucked him up so easily.

>>280745688 (OP)
I don't get why people go so ballistic over choosing a lane and calling the other worthless garbage. I enjoyed both works for what they were, with their different styles, and while I do notice the inconsistencies between them when it comes to some characters, I'm not married to them enough to actively get upset over it and condemn the whole product. I just don't care that much about Saber. She's just ok. Crucify me.

All that aside, the different tones make enough sense to me. in Zero nearly all the contestants were either deranged or neck deep in the shit of the magecraft world, where people actively try to be as awful as possible to each other for their own goals. Even the original VN states that the 4th wall was just the latest in a series of pointless tragedies due to mages being shit, and the backstories of the different mage families presented in Stay Night are just as bleak and pointlessly cruel. It's no surprise that Waver is the only character who gets out of it better than when he entered, going back home with some trauma but also a new appreciation for the small things in life. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Urobutcher's goal for the character was precisely to show that it's not ALL edgy shit, and that future mages can change.

It follows then that Stay Night has a much more positive message, because nearly half the characters are either unfamiliar with the wretched morality of the magic world or young enough to be convinced to reject it. The ones that aren't happen to be edgelords themselves and are treated as the villains for it. Easy to see how it can achieve brighter, more hopeful endings for the majority of the cast through the power of friendship and underage sex.

>>280754490
If everyone cares about everyone, everythings easier for everyone. Its a non-reachable ideal, but sure wouldn't hurt to try and be a bit more empathetic towards other people.

>>280754490
Good for you, not good for others and vice versa. A conservative would like it in regards to kicking people out from the border, but wouldn't like it if he saw an immigrant sending cash back to their country.

It's been 14 years since Zero anime but there's still Zero kids thinking edgy = mature and taking Kiritsugu's character at face value, what the hell. Why am I still in this argument?

>>280745688 (OP)
it's always zerofags who are filtered by stay night, though

>>280745688 (OP)
Because Fate Zero is pretentious nonsense half the time. King Arthur Gilgamesh and Iskandar having a moralfag argument encapsulates this entire shows hack writing.

>>280749190
Shirou should be fucking dead. He is plot armor man.

>>280745688 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7rZDAojXNY

>>280745688 (OP)
>nihilism in a world with supernatural elements