Thread 281176694

>demons look and act like humans only in order to deceive them!
>except that they also act like humans when interacting among themselves, with no human in sight

>demons don't feel or understand human emotions, they merely simulate them in order to deceive them!
>except they also emote by themselves when doing so would bring no advance whatsoever

Everyone strawmans people who don't like the demons as "People who don't like entirely evil races" when the reality is that they're poorly written.

bump

>>281176694 (OP)
>demons look and act like humans only in order to deceive them!
demons evolved to look and act(...)*
>except that they also act like humans when interacting among themselves, with no human in sight
they evolved to act as such, leaving no alternative. Same applies to the other point. Stop speedwatching.

>>281176694 (OP)
anon, I'm gonna share a secret: it's a shonen. they're unambiguously evil so the good characters can murder them and still be morally righteous, and they act like people because it would be boring if they were just rabid animals. everything else is just fluff.

>>281176694 (OP)
>Let's go on a journey to this place where the dead get resurrected!
>Coincidentally this is also where the Demon Lord's castle was built.
>Demons seem like humans but somehow aren't.
I'm sure there won't be any kind of twist related to this at all.

>>281178283
I honestly doubt it since the lynchpin of most people's love of Frieren seems to lie in the characters killing unambiguously evil monsters (like >>281177993)

>>281178327
isn't that just westoids
i don't think the japanese are that attached to the idea

>>281177993
SPBP
OP BTFO

>>281177993
If a race is sentient and capable of free will and change, then they can't really be "pure evil" by definition because they'd have the ability to choose not to be evil.
Demons having intelligence and an understanding of human morality means they have all the components necessary to choose not to kill, or to adopt a different moral code. Several of the demons even expressly want to, so its not a matter of pure choice. The problem is the manga gives no explanation for why they cannot change that would not apply to the human characters in the story who can.
At a basic level, if Demons are capable of intelligence and reasoning, or even just pure selfishness, their behavior makes no sense. Even a complete sociopath with zero regard or understanding of others is capable of blending into society by learning simple cause and effect.

A Demon that lies and mimics humans only to advance it's own selfish agenda, ultimately should just live the lie so much that they understand how to navigate human society without provoking any possible threat to themselves. This is especially true because Demons don't actually need to feed on humans in order to live, therefore their incentive to kill humans is not very high. Even a wild dog can understand conditioned principles of consequence, and a rat won't press a button that only shocks them with no reward.

Why the fuck do you keep making this thread man
It's not even a fun topic and you're not an exciting interlocutor
Like I get obsessively circling around a certain topic, but have a little self-awareness.

>>281178984
cope faggot

>>281178963
Congratulations, you put a lot more thought into this than the actual author.
Have considered that your effort and time is better spent moving on and reading and thinking about something other than this oriental picture book?

>>281176694 (OP)
>demons didn't evolve to look and act like humans but crackle maniacally in evil ways whenever they think you aren't around
d r o p p e d

>>281176694 (OP)
Usogui characters are more demonic than these wannabe demons.

>>281176694 (OP)
Demons are basically mimics, they mimic how humans behave because that's how their species works, that's also why Freiren hates them so much, they aren't loot pinatas

>>281176694 (OP)
> Why do tigers still have stripes for camoflage even when they are not hunting?

>>281176694 (OP)
Frieren isn't brilliantly written. It's literally just a fun adventure to watch. All the character designs are nice and the dialogue is simple and easy to follow without being boring. It's just good, no other explanation. It doesn't need any further justification.

>>281179089
>>281179038
>Thinking is le bad!!
Frieren fans everybody.

>>281179089
> I'm too dumb to follow a complicated story.
Frieren fans.

>>281179122
>Didn't catch on that I'm basically agreeing with you and don't like frieren that much
>Sneers about my intelligence
lil bro......

>>281179009
Kill yourself retard

>>281176694 (OP)
Nobody called them out kike Frieren, so is a based anime

>>281179089
>without being boring
Episodes 1-6 and 10-18 are boring.

>>281176694 (OP)
>>281178963
>Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.[1] Explanations of predestination often seek to address the paradox of free will, whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will.
It's simple. The manga follows protestant predestination ethics. A soul has the will to do good or bad. Those that only choose to do bad are predestined to do so. These were reincarnated into demons for convenience.

I think it's the greatest sense of humor that Frieren is wary of all Demons being fake, deceitful monsters but she keeps falling for mimic chests.

>>281176694 (OP)
Demons in Frieren are weird, they should be charismatic sociopaths that have humans twirled around their fingers not walking autism.

>>281179570
If you say so.

>>281179671
Kill yourself.

>>281179570
Not just that, but Mimics are essentially using the same logic to trick Frieren as Frieren uses to trick demons.
It really is a multilayered joke.

>>281176694 (OP)

Doesn't matter, they have to be exterminated

>>281178963
It sounds like you should read Parasyte and drop Frieren.

>>281179714
Struck a nerve, did we?

>>281177993
How do you evolve as a species to outright copy your entire prey's behavior, language and culture without ever developing one of your own? That's retarded.

>>281179608
>they should be charismatic sociopaths that have humans twirled around their fingers

Did you miss the scene where the demon leader makes up a convincing tearjerker story on-the-fly to make the human leader sympathize with him?

>>281180989
They do have their own behavior and culture. Demons are VERY possessive and jealous about magic, proudly displaying it as a show of power and finding hiding what you can do to be highly inappropriate. They generally develop one magic spell and hone it for their entire lives instead of diversify. They organize into a hierarchy by power when they group up, which isn't often because they're highly antisocial and vastly prefer to be alone. They generally only group up when they're hunting humans.

They are "articulate monsters", mimics wearing human skin. Literal skinwalkers.

>>281179181
try being less condescending next time cause your intention didn't come through

>>281176694 (OP)
you already made this thread, retard

>>281176694 (OP)
I mean, let me give you good example. Recently, a terrorist group released an image of a starving hostage being forced to dig his own grave. They did this to apply pressure, and to show he was still alive.
To them, this makes sense:
>"See, we showed you this guy starving. Our people are starving too. This is why you need to give us more aid, so we can feed our people and this guy!"
It didn't cross their minds for a moment, not for a single moment, how fucking evil this would make them look. They literally made a starving dude dig his own grave on-camera, at gunpoint.
That's what the demons are like, basically. They cannot comprehend the human mindset in any sense of the word.
It's like if you told a sociopath "All right, take care of these people" and then you come back and he's shot all of them. You go "What the fuck, I told you to take care of them! What's wrong with you?" and he goes "But I 'took care' of them like you wanted, boss."

>>281180989
it’s a real thing in nature, dumbfuck

>wholly evil race that doesn't understand love, honor, loyalty, or empathy
>also capable of forming complex social hierarchies why necessate these things

This is just like the orcs in LOTR.
The best explaination for this is an unreliable narrator.
Führeren can only see them as subhumans, even if it defies rationality

>>281176694 (OP)
I feel that all the discourse regarding demons is ultimately because they're hot.
If they weren't hot, if they looked like humanoid toads, no-one would give a shit.

>>281180989
What's the point of fiction if you can't make cool what-ifs?

>>281181926
Fiction still has to make sense. There's a reason why the phrase "Truth is stranger than fiction" is a thing.

>>281180989
This kind of bullshit always pisses me off. Giving a pretentious, half-baked answer doesn't solve anything and makes the whole thing seem stupider. They shouldn't have explained anything, it's a fantasy series anyway.

>>281180989
anon stop with the antisemitic remarks

>>281176694 (OP)
>it's ANOTHER fucking thread where 1 guy spergs out about how having an objectively evil race is bad writing and argues endlessly for hours about his objective, learned standard that conveniently excuses literal fucking demons
Just fucking give it up already you demon. If the demons were written as "Actually, they are good guys who are just forced to eat people", it would be HACK writing. GIVE IT UP! You've been trying this shit for months!

>>281176694 (OP)
Demons are people too!

>>281179122
>ermmm my evil characters must have infinite depth and backstories where every action is morally justified, especially with lengthy flashback scenes that make you wonder "Who REALLY is the demon here?"
God why didn't anyone ever think of that? Sasuga OP!

>>281181996
Can you make sense to others by first explaining why you keep making this thread? This is a genuine question btw.

>>281182288
>>281182235
Nobody said that. They're pointing out how these evil races have bad and contrived writing.

>>281181996
Proof it doesn't make sense

>>281182323
>They're
It's literally 1 fucking guy

>>281182332
This is a common criticism that's been thrown at Frieren. It's hardly 1 person.

Why do schizos like making the same fucking thread over and over again and having the exact same arguments with other schizos over and over and over again?

>>281176694 (OP)
i can agree with this. the mistake for me was showing us how the interact privately. which as your correctly note is not that different from a human.
it's also amusing they know so much human language but have no concept of a father. maybe Lügner was being blasé with Linie, but he should at least know intellectually what a father was. has he not read books?
demons just seem like proto-humans with extremely violent impulses. they could be civilized, but it would be a whole-culture effort by a people wholly cognizant of what they're doing. they would have to expect reprisals from within and be prepared to deal with them and forge on.
perhaps Frieren has decided it's not worth the effort. but she was personally traumatized and then raised by an anti-demon who strongly impressed on her.

>>281176694 (OP)
We all know demons are evil, but will she let me have sex with her at least

>>281182372
I don't know. It's sooooo fucking stale too. Dead Internet Theory seems a little less ridiculous each year.

>>281182359
It only seems common because this 1 dude has been obsessively posting it for months. I know it's him because he posted "Fiction has to make sense", just like he posted in the last 5+ threads where people earnestly engaged him on this issue.

Hence why I am going to call him a fuckin demon from now on, dude is just trying to trick people so he can eat them.

>>281182411
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi8ZhcGD4uo&t=1821s
Not at all true. This video essay points out this exact problem.

>>281182395
Linie is my wife.
back. off.

I just dont get which conception of evil could end up with an ontologically evil species being possible. Either
>The "evil" is genetically coded behaviour, in which case they arent any more evil than any random stealth predator in nature, our you for commiting the terrible sin of having an immune system.
>Or they're actually consciously choosing to act evil and they can in fact do good, but then they’re not an ontologically evil species.

Frieren is pseud shit co-opted by cringe trad larpers who don't even understand Christianity and try to prop the show up as reflecting "good Christian values" because "demons bad" when they aren't anything like Judeo-Christian demons and the show actively says some heretical shit. It's an above average series that spends too much time on dogshit fights that's jerked off by retards who don't actually watch anime, like Orb. Liking either should immediately out you as a retard.

>>281179505
They don't have souls, they're magical creatures that dissipate into mana after dying like every other magical creature in the series.

>>281176694 (OP)
This scene still leaves me thinking. Was the woman's hostility toward her the reason she did this? Does that mean she was trying to fix the situation in her own very retarded way? Would she not have acted this way if she hadn’t been treated like that? Why would she do something like this? Was it her wish to live peacefully in that village? And more importantly, why did she feel disappointed when she realized she had ruined it? Was this a genuine attempt to try to understand humans? If she had known everything would turn out this way, would she have acted differently?
Anyway, I will never have an answer to this question because the author is a fag who hates to delve into these subjects and any interpretation other than "Le heckin evil demons".

Demons sort of walked backwards into becoming civilized.
>Be humanoids that prey on humans
>Realize they have a language, start speaking it to hunt better
>Realize they inherently try to relate/reason with demons who can talk
>Start talkign to humans and saying what you think it is they want to hear
>Realize they drop their guard down the more human you look
>Start looking more human like.

Its telling that the demon girl that Himmel spared actually tried to "apologize" to the villagers who's daughter she killed by killing a different family and trying to hand over that girl to the other family. She couldn't even comprehend what she did was wrong.

I forgot who said it, but the Demon King was supposdly looking for a way for humans and demons to coexist, but it was deemed as a futile endeavor since humans would get wiped out before demons could truly understand them.

So yeah, demons have evolved to have human like qualities but they're still predators that prey on humans that don't truly get the human condition.

>>281176694 (OP)
Demons aren't "evil" (whatever that means) just like a lion that massacres a family of Gazelles isn't evil.
Do you think agriculture and the meat industry is evil?

>>281182728
The fact that she killed the girl's father not out of some primal instinct but as an attempt to socialize with others makes this scene all the more puzzling.

>>281182764
Lions eat Gazelles to survive. Demons kill humans for literally no reason and even when they consciously don't want to kill humans they do it anyway. Also lions are not all that intelligent. Meanwhile, demons have their own civilization and take part in geopolitical politics.

Your comparison makes 0 sense.

>>281182728
>>281182776
I think this scene hammers in just how alien the demon mind is.

>I want to live and this town might let me live with them
>This lady is upset since she's missing a daughter
>I will replace her daughter

This girl probably would have killed the villagers when she felt the need to. Its like befriending a bear. Yeah it might eat out of your hand and sleep with you. But one day it might be hungry and you might be the closest thing to it.

Has it been revealed that demons EAT humans? I don't think I've ever seen it directly mentioned or even the aftermath hinted.

>>281182863
How is it evil to offer to fix a shitty situation?

>>281182612
protestant predestination

>>281182885
Its not evil, but it is a malicious intent and ultimately behavior that is incompatible with humans.

'Mazoku' is a term used mostly for fantasy video games like Dragon Quest, and how demons act reflects this. They have no need to kill humans to live, and can't articulate why they do it anyway when the majority of them don't even enjoy it, because they're just video game enemies programmed to attack the player. You can't reason with them in much the same way as Dragon Quest and Wizardry don't have that option.

>>281182863
That's really not that alien, children have that sort of logic just not taken to that extreme.

>I broke the new toy you gave me so we should break the toy you gave my sibling because it's only fair that neither of us have a new toy if I can't have one.

>>281182846
>Demons kill humans for literally no reason
It's said in universe they prey on humans, so it's not for no reason.
>and even when they consciously don't want to kill humans they do it anyway.
Do you know why humans wear masks on the back of their heads when in territory that has lions/tigers?

>>281182846
> are incomparable to animals
They are literally the same and demons even say it's correct to think that way.
Being able to communicate =/= capable of having empathy/emotions/morality.
Picrel is the killshot to any speedreader ESL headcanon you can and will dream up. Despite any and all mimicry, any and all efforts, demons are fundamentally unable to develop an understanding of emotions and morality. Your speedreading, perpetually assmad contrarian headcanon loses to canon writing that doesn't contradict itself. Not from mimicking standing in front of graves, not imaginary made up "emotional memories" that NEVER happened on screen, not "showing emotion when alone" which NEVER happened on screen. Not from the complete absence of proof on your end, no manga panels, no anime clips.

>>281182959
>It's said in universe they prey on humans, so it's not for no reason.
They don't need to eat humans to survive, it's literally confirmed in series and by the author, they just do just because. Lions don't have a choice.

>Do you know why humans wear masks on the back of their heads when in territory that has lions/tigers?
That has literally 0 relevance to anything I said. There are demons in Frieren who explicitly say they don't want to kill humans and just end up doing it anyway because they just can't help it, apparently.

>>281182863
And why would she do that when that woman didn't even pose a threat to her lifestyle? Besides that means that in theory it is possible to coexist with demons and also that their instinct to hunt humans (which I doubt to be honest) is not uncontrollable, which makes everything Frieren has said so far untrue.

>>281183144
Because demons don't follow human logic. Thats the whole thing. You can coexist with them up until they get in their heads they need to kill you or some other schmuck.

Its literally the Grizzly Man situation. You can create this repoire but there might be a day when the demon just decides to off you for reasons you don't understand.

>>281182756
>So yeah, demons have evolved to have human like qualities but they're still predators that prey on humans that don't truly get the human condition.
i suppose in theory, if you;
>had raised a demon child from birth with a couple of ex-heroes as parents, trained combat veterans
>the baby demon was only surrounded by children of heroes/other combat capable humans who knew to be cautious
>everyone was at least somewhat invested in the experiment being a success
You could successfully raise a demon child with a conscience and morality, but it would take active effort from everyone involved, and a literal child psychologist who isnt a hack advising everyone involved from the shadows. The demon child would still be a Chris Benoit style psychopath though, trying to be good because he was emulating all the great people he was surrounded by, but one traumatic event away from doing horrific things.

>>281183289
Nice fanfic. But it doesn't matter how well you raise them.

A tiger in captivity raised with love and care still has the insticts of a tiger. Even the happiest dog can potentially lose their shit and maul someone with the right trigger.

Humans can barely be trusted, animals less so.

A demon raised as you suggest would only be more dangerous, not less, since it would have a deeper understanding of human thoughts

>>281182999
>capable of having empathy/emotions/morality.
Why do you retarded niggers keep making this about morality, I don't give a shit if they're "evil" or not, they're fucking retarded. Why would a race just evolve to kill humans to the point they literally can't help themselves and will do so to extinction when they have 0 need to do so?

>hurr durr muh lack of empathy
Even people in the real world who lack empathy can function better than these fucking retards. You're telling me they're intelligent enough to understand context clues and figure out how to use something like "My father also died" in response to someone saying their son died and they couldn't actually figure out what the word refers to? And they say this in front of the human guards walking next to them? Holy shit.

>b-but convergent evolution!
I'd actually fucking prefer them just be like demons out of Demon City Shinjuku or some shit and just have them be evil with no explanation rather than this horse shit they tried to come up with and shit the bed trying to be too clever.

Take all the time reading this horse shit all you want, it doesn't make it or you any less retarded.

>b-but demons could develop empathy if they tried
re-read Macht's arc, if he couldn't do it after decades of trying and sacrificing thousand of human lives to feel even a bit of emotion then there's nothing to indicate others demons could. It's just not worth pursuing that endeavor because it would end with the extinction of humanity. maybe the demon king was different but we don't know yet

>>281182612
You implicitly treat evil as something other than "consistently does bad things to me for reasons I don't accept or understand", which is not something most people believe.

>>281183393
>A tiger in captivity raised with love and care still has the insticts of a tiger. Even the happiest dog can potentially lose their shit and maul someone with the right trigger.
thats kind of what i said in my final sentence, read a post next time before critiquing it. The demon would be incentivised to be 'good' around humans under my extremely unlikely scenario, but they'd easily be led astray or go homicidal if manipulated or tricked into it, or just lost the social touchstones they relied on in life.

>>281183230
I don't want the manga to waste entire volumes "explaining" why demons are evil and giving pseudo-biology or convergent evolution lectures only to ultimately say, "they're just monsters or animals and uh they kill just because!" Basically this >>281183403 >>281182136 It makes me wish they had never said anything and had just gone with "they're an evil race" from the start. But of course, how else would they appease the midwits unless they subvert expectations by giving an explanation for why the evil race is evil? Anyway, the demons in Frieren suck and are never going to win a fight. After the death of Macht, who was basically the last strong demon still alive, and with the direction the current arc is heading, it's clear we won't see them again until it's time for them to get their asses kicked again like the jobbers they are.

>>281183289
Didn't this literally happen in the anime and the demon girl massacred the village because she thought it would make her adoptive parents "happy"?

>>281183876
The story is being told in 2 parts. Frieren's adventures with her current party and her adventure with Himmel.

We likely won't see the sheer power of the demon king until they get to Ende.

We don't know shit about how demons powerscale except that they have a sort of intrinsic understanding of magic.

Just as the legendary Hero has not arrived for the Humans, so to has the dreaded Demon King not shown up yet.

>>281176694 (OP)
It's a metaphor for certain kind of people you keep electing as your leaders.

>>281176694 (OP)
>except that they also act like humans when interacting among themselves, with no human in sight
Anon. Even by bait standards, it's worrying how you think acting like sociopath is at all a normal thing for humans to act like.

>>281183902
Imagine making a series called Beyond Journey's End and selling it like it's a "What happens after they defeat the demon king?" story and just making it an uninspired battle series where they end up doing the same fucking journey again.

>Why can't we coexist with this magic powered power hungry sociopath until he actually does something bad?
Demon defenders everyone.

>>281184260
>I'm too retarded to read or think critically!
Frierenfags, everyone.

>>281182999
In order to be able to communicate with humans and fool them for long enough to prey on them, a very rudimentary theory of mind is required. You could argue demons understand human emotions, if only from an abstract point of view.
>>281176694 (OP)
Demons have demon emotions. Ever consider that, genius? It's just the autist-neurotypical double empathy problem played out with fantasy races.

>>281183050
>They don't need to eat humans to survive, it's literally confirmed in series and by the author, they just do just because. Lions don't have a choice.
They probably barely survive and can't grow stronger without doing it.

>That has literally 0 relevance to anything I said. There are demons in Frieren who explicitly say they don't want to kill humans and just end up doing it anyway because they just can't help it, apparently.

https://youtu.be/V5x8-8h0LLA

It's innate in a lot of predators, even if they are well fed like this Tiger in a zoo enclosure.

>>281181284
i was saying you're basically right but autistically obsessing over this is pointless.
also you deserve condescension.

>>281184260
When all you can do is argue strawmen that no one actually said

>>281178963
>If a race is sentient and capable of free will and change
In a Frieren arc, A demon becomes “friends” with a human throughout the latter’s life and, in the end, feels nothing for him.

Why did lefties chimp out at the idea of monsters disguising at humans and mimicking human emotions to profit from them?
Is it such an offensive concept or does it hit too close to home?

>>281180989
>>281176694 (OP)
>OP never heard of mimicry
lol lmao even
watch some documentary about it, its a pretty cool topic honestly

>>281187326
>Direction brain babble
You seem lost

>>281176694 (OP)
It's funny how we have a demon talking about convergent evolution and comparing humans and demons to dolphins and sharks and how even though dolphins and sharks look similar, they're completely different and kill and eat one another, yet readers still completely miss the point.

>>281187376
Dolphins and sharks don't look similar at all

>>281182756
>>281183289
>>281183393
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
>As reported on by Trut, the tests for tameness took the following form, which was still in use as of 2009: "When a cub is one month old, an experimenter offers it food from his hand while trying to stroke and handle the cub. The cubs are tested twice, once in a cage and once while moving freely with other cubs in an enclosure, where they can choose to make contact either with the human experimenter or with another cub. The test is repeated monthly until the cubs are six or seven months old." At the age of seven or eight months, the cubs are given a tameness score and placed in one of three groups. The least domesticated are in Class III; those that allow humans to pet and handle them, but that do not respond to contact with friendliness, are in Class II; the ones that are friendly with humans are in Class I. After only six generations, Belyayev and his team had to add a higher category, Class IE, the "domesticated elite", which "are eager to establish human contact, whimpering to attract attention and sniffing and licking experimenters like dogs. They start displaying this kind of behavior before they are one month old. By the 20th generation 35% were 'elite', and by the 30th generation 70% to 80% of the selected generation was 'elite'.

>Once the foxes in each generation had been classified according to the latest research, only the least fearful and least aggressive foxes were selected for breeding. Goldman said, "In each successive generation, less than 20 percent of individuals were allowed to breed". The sole criterion for permitting them to breed was their tolerance of human contact

It should be possible to create demons that are friendly to humans but it is gona be 300 year project with multiple generations of selective beeding of demons.

You are gona need hundreds of wizards, schoolars, scientist and thousand guards and one massive facility for it.

If you eat meat you shouldn't have an issue with this.

>>281188152
I do. Infact I ran a very brief imagination based fantasy where I was a demon and rped in frierens world. I ultimately came to the conclusion that, after witnessing the capacity or lack there of of demon kind towards their life stock in comparison to my memories of non Jewish ran farms, there is no moral reason to allow a demon to live on the premise that they eat meat and hunt as we do. Demons there are not capable of running a farm. They would burn it down and kill the humans in it and move on. There's even a villain in the actual series canon that mocks the biggest human simp because after 1000 years he doesn't know what a handshake is

>>281188152
Do wild animals perceive us as demons?

>>281176694 (OP)
How are they supposed to pass as human-adjacent if they don't practice being human in their free time?
Do you think they just know this shit intuitively?
They have to observe, learn and practice. Just like everyone else

>>281176694 (OP)
Theyre just extremely autistic compared to humans, which ironically elves also are.

>>281188434
It's the other way around schlomo. I was so shocked to see kids taking an entire pick one bowl for the first time in halloween

>>281188329
>I ran a very brief imagination based fantasy

>>281188458
Kids are just animals that have learned human speech.
They don't become human until they realize how easily their life can fade away.

I will not disagree about demons being a danger to humans, and human/demon co-existence being more or less impossible, but I will disagree on calling them evil. My reason is very simple, although perhaps a bit strange at first glance, basically, I don't think demons are evil because they are unable to not perform actions that we perceive as evil. If something can't actually choose between being good or being evil, then I don't think whatever they do is actually evil. Take leeches for example, sure, I don't like them, I don't want to get my blood sucked, I would get rid of them if I found them on or near me, but is a leech evil for trying to suck my blood? I don't think so, I mean, it can't choose anything else, it's gonna see me and its instincts are gonna force it to go try to feed off of me, it can't help it.

That's why I think calling demons "evil" is incorrect.

>>281176694 (OP)
0/10 bait

>>281188495
I was 6 at the time I saw it.

>>281188486
>You had fun? Cringeee!!!
Should I have blown a guy dressed as konata instead? Or brushed my sister's teeth?

>>281188329
> I ran a very brief imagination based fantasy
You mean a "mental simulation"

>>281176694 (OP)
It is just a shonen bro, the author just needed an evil faction that her thousand year old loli baba MC can kill without ahy fuss

>>281187298
He feels friendship but friendship feels different. You genuinely don't understand the story if you think demons don't have emotions

>>281178963
Because the demons have largely been winning the war Frieren says herself humans have 1/3 of peak territory even in current day which to the demons isn't thay long ago.

They have no time to learn that they won't just win again.

Also fundamentally the demons just do no any emotional level feel bad for kill humans. Sure a demon can be tough don't kill humans or die but unless their is conscious enforcement they won't follow
Sociopaths pretend to be normal while in society demons would do the same till it Suites them to not.

They are a biological species that seeks to rule to propagate there's no reason outside of violence why they wouldn't just explode in population and the young demons wouldn't just eat humans for fun.

>>281178963
Jews are pure evil there you have it, no need to go to the world of Frieren to have an example.

>>281182323
No one's really given an objective reason why having an objectively evil race is bad other than it not lining up with IRL morality

>>281179068
This. They're psychos/sociopaths with some form of gigatism about whatever magic they pursue.

>>281188745
That's too clinical I did it for fun not for basedance.

>>281189122
Demons aren't really good at being evil either. I'd take them over Jews any day of the week. Demons can't understand humans. It makes them retarded and fail to learn things like handshakes over the course of 1000 years. The demons are to be pitied as they are put down.

Once again I need to remind people ignorant of biology:
spiders which evolved to look like, and imitate ants, continue to imitate their looks / behavior even when alone / with other ant-mimicking spiders.

You have no idea how biological mimicry works.

>>281189652
Ok? None of that is bad

False. They look like humans because that’s what the mangaka wants to draw. Doing traditional Mazoku like Qual is too much effort so humans with horn accessories it is.

I want to make babies with Linie

>>281190184
Didn't say it was bad I said they aren't that good at being evil.

>>281190356
I want to make babies with Aura

>>281176694 (OP)
He looks gay.

>>281176694 (OP)
What I still don't understand is how exactly demons raise their young. They clearly have no concept of parents or family, they just see crying "mother" as something that makes humans pity them. Presumably demons occasionally feel horny (not that we ever see it) and the sex leads to children, but then what? Who raises the kids if demons clearly don't give a fuck? Who teaches them to speak? Who teaches them to be loyal to demon hierachies and their rules?
A society composed entirely of evil selfish people who don't give a shit doesn't work as soon as you factor children in.

>>281193407
Yeah, the idea that demons don't even know what a mother of father is really doesn't make any sense. The author obviously wanted to shock the reader by making them as inhuman as possible with a completely alien set of values, but surely they'd have a word to describe their progenitors.

Lawine

>>281193407
They live in the wild, it isn't that complicated

>>281193407
So demons even have child form or they just get a final form when they are created and they don't age at all?
I doubt demons even have sex or they breed like humans do, they are created by magic.
meaning more powerful demons who were originally created by Elfs boredom make their own minions who in time make another batch of new demons through magic.
That will never be explained by author, similiar like author will never explain why there's no half-breeds in the wordl which points to direction that different races can't interbreed with another.

>>281182728
That scene was just there to prove demons are evil and to provide the protagonists moral cover to kill her. That’s why the evil deceitful demon faker couldn’t be bothered to LIE about the events, nor could she just WAIT for her watchers to go away first even if she was inclined to kill. The mangaka is a a fag who will never ever explore these issues in a meaningful way.

>>281187298
>>281187376
>>281193407
Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.

The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.

>>281193407
>>281193499
We don't actually know how demons reproduce or if sex is involved, like you said we never see any demons express any interest in sex.
For all we know they just emerge from nothingness or something. And it's possible they start out as fully self-sufficient (like many animals do, we humans kind of suck in that regard) and can learn language just by interacting with humans or other demons.

>>281194108
Demons kill humans for food though, it's a predator-prey relationship, they don't kill humans for the lulz.

>>281194212
It's literally said they don't even have to kill humans to survive. It's explicitly done for the lulz.

Also you guys are heavily missing the main facts. Frieren is an isekai — a native isekai to be precise; a game world but no MC transferee / reincarnator. The word being translated as demon is “Mazoku”, which is a traditional isekai antagonist faction, usually characterized as a magical race who are focused on attacking humans, usually as a part of the Maou (“Demon King”) army. Mazoku attacks humans in Frieren because that’s their JRPG-like setting, there’s no evolutionary reason behind it, Mazoku attack humans because they’re programmed to, not because they have a specific nutritional, ideological, social, etc, need to. It basically boils down to an instant. However, the Frieren versions appear to be high-functioning types, meaning they can put a break on their instincts in order to avoid negative outcomes for themselves. After the Maou and his army is destroyed, having to civilization to fit into, they should be trying to fit into human society. In every city and town there should be one or two living there in deep cover, perhaps they are known within the locale’s underworld and that’s one of the way they can build links within human society to find a place within it. But this level of writing is far beyond this manga so whatever.

A lot of people in this thread are confidently talking about "bad" writing but are midwits who can't even understand that mimicry doesn't necessarily equal the real thing. It's like confusing an LLM for a real person. No wonder Plato was onto something with the allegory of the cave.

>>281194764
How is a being able to mimic humans to the point of trickery; but yet not able to understand how human emotions work? They know what makes people happy, sad, scared, and all that, but yet they don't know what human morality is like?

>>281194835
Again, think of an LLM, it can assess and predict the most likely behavioural responses but this does not actually mean an LLM possess a thalamus or amygdala that actually instantiates emotions (an evolutionary mechanism developed from animals that affects learning).
An LLM could know what an emotion, how people feel about but not instinctively 'know' how it feels or how it motivates people. A finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

>>281194990
An LLM doesn't have their own internal thought processes, their own thoughts and their own feelings. All of which demons are shown to have. Macht was able to not kill humans for half a century purely by his own choice. An LLM is not comparable to a demon.

>>281195062
Are you sure about that? A reasoner LLMs produce reasoning traces that are remarkably similar to human thought processes (which is why DeepSeek R1 was a huge deal); you can argue that this is just mimicry of human thought processes using CoT and reinforcement learning but frankly isn't too different from how demons are portrayed.

You say demons have "their own internal thought processes, their own thoughts and their own feelings" but how do you know that these are analagous to human ones? Your hidden assumption that demon's don't make sense relies on this supposition.
Why can't Macht make a decision similar to how an LLM makes a decision to not kill humans because of a very strong prompt?
Why can't demons have "thought processes" utterly alien to what we can imagine?

>>281195212
An LLM requires an input from another person and cannot function on its own. Demons are capable of making decisions on their own without needing an input from another person. This is absolutely retarded comparison.

They aren't doing it just for mimicry because they do it even when humans aren't around or they think nobody is observing them. Linie asking Lugner who a father is is a good example. Nobody prompted her to ask a question, she did it on her own.

>>281195300
The point is that there are utterly different ways of thinking about the world and you can't assume that it is the same as how you imagine a human imagines the world. It's retarded to assume I was literally saying demons are LLMs.

This is beside the point but LLMs can absolutely take an input from the outside world via sensory data and pictures btw; how do you think stuff like Claude plays Pokemon works. And again, knowing and predicting how human responses work doesn't mean an entity suddenly shuts down around when humans don't exists.

You can absolutely copy someone's actions and words without understanding what is in its essence. You're getting too caught up in the concept of a prompt which is simply an input/output process that could also just be the outside world.

>>281195595
>It's retarded to assume I was literally saying demons are LLMs.
Oh okay. When you make a comparison between demons and LLMs, I'll assume that you're not making a comparison between demons and LLMs. Point noted.
>Everything is a prompt!!
Then you're not making any meaningful, functional distinction between human thought processes and LLMs. If you count everything as a prompt, then nothing counts. Everything is functionally the same. The demons show understanding of human emotions on par with Frieren at the very least and there's no saying that they couldn't adopt a different moral system if they wanted to, but the series never explains why they can't do this that wouldn't apply to the other characters who can.
>You can absolutely copy someone's actions and words without understanding what is in its essence.
This isn't what demons do though. They show that they know what makes people more empathetic towards them, know what makes people happy, sad, scared etc. There's no possible way that they could mimic people so perfectly and even do it when nobody else is around if they had absolutely no idea how these emotions actually work in essence. If they know basic cause and effect, they know what these emotions mean. But the series says otherwise, which is completely retarded.

>>281194835
The llm, to use the analogy, can easily talk about human morality and stuff, it may even seem and claim to understand it, even if it doesn't. It's running a different thing entirely, its internal machinery.

>>281194108
They are high risk sociopaths that can't be dealt with by normal humans. Why would they feel inhibited about mistreating humans? It's not like there's a Frieren in every village.
They probably don't bother other demons only because they recognize the risks. The Demon King uniting all of them was only possible through sheer strength.

>>281195850
>Oh okay. When you make a comparison between demons and LLMs, I'll assume that you're not making a comparison between demons and LLMs. Point noted.
Yes, an analogy means a comparison of two things while not necessarily claiming something is the exact same. I do hope your brain doesn't shut down when you encounter a metaphor.

> Then you're not making any meaningful, functional distinction between human thought processes and LLMs.

But there is a meaningful functional distinction between LLMs and humans; that's the whole point of comparison. LLMs have a significant breakdown in solving mathematical problems when you add an irrelevant cat fact at the end; human's don't do that. Plus general architectural differences between LLMs and humans suggest they are not the same.
The point was not that though. The point is that an LLM looks so much like a human thought process that people literally believe they are sentient like that guy at Google. So you're assertion is ultimately any thought process must be identical to that of a human's but that's a terrible assumption.

>This isn't what demons do though. They show that they know what makes people more empathetic towards them, know what makes people happy, sad, scared etc. There's no possible way that they could mimic people so perfectly and even do it when nobody else is around if they had absolutely no idea how these emotions actually work in essence.

Again, this is simply a lack of imagination on your part. I am not saying an LLM is a demon, but people say the exact same thing when talking to LLMs thats why people can have conversations or virtual girlfriends with ChatGPT.
Or in another direction, do you know the exact mechanics of how you walk? You do walk, can direct yourself to walk but you are not conscious of the exact physical mechanism of nerve signals or contraction of various muscles to achieve locomotion. There are tons of ways this can be explained that do not require conscious knowledge.

>>281196202
>Yes, an analogy means a comparison of two things while not necessarily claiming something is the exact same. I do hope your brain doesn't shut down when you encounter a metaphor.
>A reasoner LLMs produce reasoning traces that are remarkably similar to human thought processes (which is why DeepSeek R1 was a huge deal); you can argue that this is just mimicry of human thought processes using CoT and reinforcement learning but frankly isn't too different from how demons are portrayed.

Were these not your exact words? They are not the same thing. And rather than conceding that point, you simply continue your retardation and keep applying mental gymnastics to defend this series' god awful writing.
>But there is a meaningful functional distinction between LLMs and humans
Nobody was claiming otherwise, moron. I'm showing how DEMONS don't act like LLMs. Not that humans don't act like LLMs. Nothing that's shown in Frieren distinguishes their ability to have thought processes as different from human beings. They behave exactly the same with no functional difference between the two. Functionality speaking, if they cannot stop mimicking people to the point where it provides no benefit or they even do it when people aren't around, then there's functionally no difference between the mimicked emotion and the real thing. This isn't even countering how they would have to have some kind of human theory of mind to be able to mimic people to this extent. For fuck's sake, a demon child knows that human children call out for their mother when they're in danger, and knows that it makes people hesitate. That demonstrates an explicit understanding of casual chains and emotions, but the series continues to insist that they don't, because the story has shitty writing.

>>281196202
>Again, this is simply a lack of imagination on your part.
This is simply me calling out the series for having forced, contrived and contradictory writing when it comes to the demons. No amount of cope is going to prove this wrong. Demons and humans have no meaningful differences in the way they think.
They're fully sentient, and capable of making decisions for themselves. They are not thinking like LLMs. They are thinking like people.

>>281176694 (OP)
Demons as a whole simply make no sense. I'm not gonna repeat all the other good argument, but given how they are depicted, they wouldn't even reproduce.

>>281196189
An LLM doesn't have its own internal thought processes and feelings and requires an input from a human to work. This is not the case with a demon.

>>281176694 (OP)
sybau demon
Zoltrak

>>281193876
>in the wild
No you retard, then any demons would be feral and unable to actually mimic humans. No amount of evolution can give them the all the knowledge needed to act as a human, someone has to teach them. Which is impossible given how demons are depicted.

>>281196512
> Nothing that's shown in Frieren distinguishes their ability to have thought processes as different from human beings. They behave exactly the same with no functional difference between the two. Functionality speaking, if they cannot stop mimicking people to the point where it provides no benefit or they even do it when people aren't around, then there's functionally no difference between the mimicked emotion and the real thing.

And the whole point of this long chain of conversation is that this is just your assumption despite the fact that demons are literally described to have alien thought processes.

> For fuck's sake, a demon child knows that human children call out for their mother when they're in danger, and knows that it makes people hesitate. That demonstrates an explicit understanding of casual chains and emotions,
And LLM's threaten to call the FBI when asked to do illegal things, doesn't mean they understand that.

Anyway, this conversation is pointless because you do not understand that difference between external behaviours and internal mechanisms for generating them. You think that since demons speak like humans and talk about concepts and use those concepts, their cognition must be equal to that of humans. As long as you cling to that equivalence, yeah I guess demon's don't make sense.

The Frieren author is a demon because they can't draw human emotions - all of their character are le stoic emotionless cool cucumbers at all times. This means they should be killed.

>>281196615
>An LLM doesn't have its own internal thought processes
It has internal algorithms and processes, which is analogous.
>How is a being able to mimic humans to the point of trickery; but yet not able to understand how human emotions work?
You're asking, above, how can a being imitate humans without *being human*, and when given an example proving how it's possible, you say that's not a human, duh.
That's the point, this is f a n t a s y. We can come up with a race, or alien, or an alien race that mimics humans, even though their internal processes are different on the inside, despite in real life it's only a crazy hypothetical.

>>281196877
The author can't write for shit. The artist can't draw for shit. A match made in heaven

>>281196725
>And the whole point of this long chain of conversation is that this is just your assumption despite the fact that demons are literally described to have alien thought processes.
They SAY they have alien thought processes, but they SHOW otherwise. That's what makes the demons in this show contradictory and retarded, not even mentioning how retarded the basic concept for them in general is.
>And LLM's threaten to call the FBI when asked to do illegal things, doesn't mean they understand that.
Except an LLM is not a learning; living creature that can perform actions on its own. This is a pretty big distinction that you seem desperate to avoid having to deal with the consequences of, because your entire retarded comparison completely falls apart. In order for a living creature like a demon to understand mimicking people to this extent, they'd also have to know how those emotions work. They know what being happy sad and scared is if they can mimic it to the point of tricking actual humans.

The series demonstrates no difference in their internal thought processes that would distinguish them from a human.

>>281196944
>It has internal algorithms and processes, which is analogous.
No, it isn't. All of it has to come from an outside prompt. It cannot learn or do anything on its own. It's not sentient, which demons are shown to be. This is not an analogous comparison, and it's amazing that so many Frierentards use this to justify the shitty writing of the demons.
>You're asking, above, how can a being imitate humans without *being human*, and when given an example proving how it's possible, you say that's not a human, duh.
How can it understand how to mimic human emotions without understanding how those emotions work and what makes people feel those emotions in the first place?

>>281176694 (OP)
>Poorly written
The demons are literally Magic, there doesn't need to be any explanation for their behavior other than that they magically compelled to do so.

>>281196944
>That's the point, this is f a n t a s y. We can come up with a race, or alien, or an alien race that mimics humans, even though their internal processes are different on the inside, despite in real life it's only a crazy hypothetical.
Another retard cope argument for lack of internal consistency.
For starters, it makes absolutely no fucking sense a sentient and highly social race is incapable of empathy. Not just feeling it but rationalizing it. As a member of a sentient and highly social race, it's in our nature to empathize. We empathize with animals, plants, even rocks in the right lighting.
For seconders, it makes absolutely no fucking sense the rest of the world didn't do a scorched earth crusade on demons for innately refusing to play ball. The powers that be seem content to just let them hang around like they learned their lesson post-war. And it's fucking ridiculous the lack of discrimination they face. Like they're literally demons. You know, the things we don't even have and yet have tons of fables about never trusting? Frieren's worldbuilding sucks and is a jumbled heap of half-baked ideas and the author just wants to pull out the "wooo~ demons are actually evil~" twist because it was the only bright idea they had after deciding frequent timeskips were too hard.

>>281197198
Except for when the series takes a biologically grounded route to explain their behavior?

>>281197062
>Except an LLM is not a learning; living creature that can perform actions on its own. This is a pretty big distinction that you seem desperate to avoid having to deal with the consequences of, because your entire retarded comparison completely falls apart. In order for a living creature like a demon to understand mimicking people to this extent, they'd also have to know how those emotions work. They know what being happy sad and scared is if they can mimic it to the point of tricking actual humans.

But that's completely irrelevant; the point is that it's possible and to show we could conceptualize a living creature that has a thought process like an LLM or something else just as alien. You are insistent that a living creature MUST have such properties but provide no proof as to why. Performing actions on your own is irrelevant to the thought process (and is also possible for LLMs btw, just read up on agents).

> In order for a living creature like a demon to understand mimicking people to this extent, they'd also have to know how those emotions work. They know what being happy sad and scared is if they can mimic it to the point of tricking actual humans.
And my entire point is that fake LLMs manage to do this with real humans already so your point is already false. A guy at Google thought LLMs were sentient and LLMs already trick actual humans.

> The series demonstrates no difference in their internal thought processes that would distinguish them from a human.

And that again is just your assumption and lack of imagination. I don't even like Frieren but the only reason I am posting in this thread is because I thought your argument was completely retarded.

>>281194212
>>281194385
Housecats do not need to kill birds for food. They eat the birds anyway. (Also PSA to keep cats inside, they wreck the bird population).

>>281197252
>But that's completely irrelevant; the point is that it's possible and to show we could conceptualize a living creature that has a thought process like an LLM or something else just as alien. You are insistent that a living creature MUST have such properties but provide no proof as to why. Performing actions on your own is irrelevant to the thought process (and is also possible for LLMs btw, just read up on agents).
Except the entire point of LLMs is to try and mimic a human beings thought processes. You even admitted to this yourself. Another example of where your argument completely fails. The LLMs that can do things on their own have to be prompted or programmed to do so by an outside source. They are not able to do anything on their own. Your comparison completely fails on that point as well. An LLM isn't "having thoughts" its simply following it's programming. It is not sentient. It does not think. It's not alive. Trying to compare demons to LLMs is completely retarded no matter how you slice.
>And my entire point is that fake LLMs manage to do this with real humans already so your point is already false. A guy at Google thought LLMs were sentient and LLMs already trick actual humans.
I've already explained why the comparison between LLMs and demons completely fails, so I won't even bother with this part. Demons are not trying to trick people that they are sentient. They already are sentient.
>And that again is just your assumption and lack of imagination.
It's more like me following what Frieren says about the demons and seeing how the how regularly contradicts that.

>>281197406
>Except the entire point of LLMs is to try and mimic a human beings thought processes. You even admitted to this yourself. Another example of where your argument completely fails. The LLMs that can do things on their own have to be prompted or programmed to do so by an outside source. They are not able to do anything on their own. Your comparison completely fails on that point as well. An LLM isn't "having thoughts" its simply following it's programming. It is not sentient. It does not think. It's not alive. Trying to compare demons to LLMs is completely retarded no matter how you slice.
Yes, LLMs were designed to predict the next token on large datasets which mimics human language. But you're confusing this purpose of creation with actually function. Just because something was built for one thing doesn't mean it could be used for something else. I could forge a ceremonial dull sword for a religious ritual and then use it cut a knot; the sword wasn't made for it but used for that purpose. Alive or inert is completely irrelevant, what matters is how information is processed.
Humans also can't do anything with certain inputs that's why being blind or deaf care considered terrible conditions. Prompts are just an input/output mechanism. You talk about "programming" but provide no reason why the same can be said for humans (given determinism and physics for example).
In general, your distinction between alive/inert is irrelevant compared to how the information itself is processed. The point of demons is to show a living being with a different informational process; it's not hard.
> I've already explained why the comparison between LLMs and demons completely fails, so I won't even bother with this part. Demons are not trying to trick people that they are sentient. They already are sentient.
Not really unfortunately. The point is that humans can be tricked by different informational processes about emotions and what not. Living or inert is irrelevant.

>>281197582
But yes, my ultimate point is that despite being created to mimic human thought, it's fundamentally different in internal mechanism. But despite being create to mimic human interaction, LLMs can converse among themselves without any direct reference to humans (as ancillary to their created purpose). You seem to be confusing these concepts a lot.

>>281197582
>Yes but buh buh buh let me ramble out irrelevant nonsense!
You simply cannot compare a demon to an LLM. Just concede this point already because it's beyond retarded literally any way you slice. One is a sentient living being, the other one is an inert piece of programming. Also, enough with this smug, authoritative tone. You are clearly way too retarded to be handling a conversation like this in such a manner.
>The point of demons is to show a living being with a different informational process; it's not hard.
And it completely fails at doing so because nothing that they do shows that they have thought processes fundamentally alien to those of human. Demons have very human morality. The two moral values we've seen them have are thinking trickery is wrong, and thinking demons dying is wrong (if not shown through lugner, then certainly by solitar literally saying she didn't like the demon kings war because it killed her friends). They also have an understanding and expression of emotions certainly on par with frieren at the very least, as she is also shown to not understand some of them at all at the story's beginning. There is nothing to say they couldn't adopt a different morality. the story has shown they have all the components necessary to. It has not given a reason why they cannot change that would not also apply to the other characters who can. That's the entire point you're failing to comprehend and are using a lot of pseudo intellectual mental gymnastics to try and say otherwise.
>But despite being create to mimic human interaction, LLMs can converse among themselves without any direct reference to humans (as ancillary to their created purpose)
WHERE IS THIS WITH DEMONS? THEY JUST SAY IT, THATS IT. THERES NOTHING SHOWING THIS.

>>281184311
>>>I'm too retarded to read or think critically!
demonfags when told an evil race is evil

>>281197747
They are not comparable to an LLM because they don't "think" like LLMs. They think like humans.

>>281176694 (OP)
Shut up demon simp.
Those demon animals deserve nothing.

why does nobody defend goblins this fervently
they want to fuck human women so they're just like us

>>281198019
>You simply cannot compare a demon to an LLM. Just concede this point already because it's beyond retarded literally any way you slice. One is a sentient living being, the other one is an inert piece of programming. Also, enough with this smug, authoritative tone. You are clearly way too retarded to be handling a conversation like this in such a manner.
I am being smug because you literally can't comprehend that living or inert or "programming" are completely irrelevant. How do you think biological brains and nervous systems actually work? There's nothing special there; just information ultimately and how it's processed. And again the LLM is just an analogy for alien like informational processes.

> WHERE IS THIS WITH DEMONS? THEY JUST SAY IT, THATS IT. THERES NOTHING SHOWING THIS.
You said it can't be coming from mimicry because they use it when human's weren't around. That argument fails for a lot of reasons.

As for the rest of your argument, the only thing that comes close is Solitar "saying she didn't like the demon kings war because it killed her friends"
which I can't verify because I haven't read Frieren that far to judge. But there are tons of non-human things about them starting from how their society is structured based of animal like territorial respect for mana to their interactions with humans.
Anyway, I don't care for Frieren as a series to continue this any longer but the point that having a few things like friends (though I don't know if I can trust your exact wording) or dislike faking of mana territorial status through deception doesn't require them to be at all like humans everywhere else. It's a fantasy to show a somewhat alien species.

>>281197117
>No, it isn't.
Eh, it's not exactly analogous. But it does have processes, that is, computer processes, that happens after you hit the prompt. Like a calculator has circuits that leads 1+1 to 2. Other people prefer using analogies to animals, like a parrot. A parrot can say words it doesn't know the meaning of.
>How can it understand how to mimic human emotions without understanding how those emotions work and what makes people feel those emotions in the first place?
(You were just given the example of llm doing it... nevermind you're now asking a question with an answer. I don't get it. are you trying to say it's categorically impossible? Why do you think it is?)
By doing it. It looks and imitates that and the impression is convincing enough. like for example >>281180625.

>>281176694 (OP)

Tell it to someone that cares. Demons predate on humans, that is in indisputable truth your sophistry won´t be able to deny. That is reason enough to purge them to the last spawn.

Furthermore you have no proof that they act like humans when interacting among themselves.

Basically the author thought that "deconstructing" Dragon Quest demons with a scientific, biological explanation for their existence would be the coolest shit, but because of lack of intelligence they fumbled it with something nonsensical and laughable. Reminds me of the morons writing the new Castlevania coming up with vampires hating crosses because they can't stand rough angles or something, completely idiotic.

>>281198546
>I am being smug because you literally can't comprehend that living or inert or "programming" are completely irrelevant.
You're being smug because of your inability to comprehend the fact that an LLM and a living sentient being aren't comparable? That's some serious confidence for someone that retarded. The LLM isn't a living thing and has alien processes for thought. Demons on the other hand don't.
>You said it can't be coming from mimicry because they use it when human's weren't around. That argument fails for a lot of reasons.
So many reasons that despite having all the room to do so, you instead continue to blabber smugly about irrelevant nonsense. Demons regularly show emotions in settings where they don't think humans are around. Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward. All of this cannot be explained by simply mimicry.


If you have anything else other than retarded arguments and smugness to cover them up. Actually try refuting what I'm saying.

>>281198594
>Eh its not exactly analogous
Okay, your argument is completely retarded and fails then. Point noted.
>(You were just given the example of llm doing it... nevermind you're now asking a question with an answer. I don't get it. are you trying to say it's categorically impossible? Why do you think it is?)
Because it's not a living sentient being that learns the same way that an LLM does. It's not the same at all. This is starting to feel like talking to someone with down syndrome.

>>281198721
>Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward. All of this cannot be explained by simply mimicry.

>>281198546
>Anyway, I don't care for Frieren as a series to continue this any longer but the point that having a few things like friends (though I don't know if I can trust your exact wording) or dislike faking of mana territorial status through deception doesn't require them to be at all like humans everywhere else. It's a fantasy to show a somewhat alien species.
Go ahead, run away the moment that I present evidence. Shows that you weren't intellectually honest to begin with.

>>281198901
>Daemons have feelings and are scared of dying so we shouldn't kill them

Anonymous, kill yourself.

>>281199050
If they have emotions, and are scared of dying and sentience, that means you'll be perpetuating a genocide to kill them all. Which is morally abhorrent.

>>281199104
Good.

>>281199149
And why do demons deserve that? Killing someone who's actively trying to kill you is justified self defense. Frieren's characters want to genocide all demons. Even the ones who aren't a threat. Which is a different moral question entirely.

>>281198831
It's a thought experiment. Satania imitates gabu, how, she just looks at gabu and does it. What if an alien tried to imitate a human?
Maybe 80% of its organic brainpower is wired into the task looking at a human and trying to act like it, even though it's an alien. Why can't it? (You made the bold claim that it's impossible and only AI is that good.)

>>281178963
>If a race is sentient and capable of free will and change, then they can't really be "pure evil"
They're not pure evil, you retard, there is no morality involved. They are hard wired to be predators, they have no morality and the golden land arc proves exactly that.

>>281199187
Where is it shown that the demons in Frieren think in an alien way completely differently from humans? And don't say "it's stated" give an actual scene showing this is the case.

>>281199181
We should exterminate Daemons for the same reason we exterminated Wolves.

I saw this exact same thread days ago. Similar replies too...

>>281199213
Macht stopped himself from killing people for half a century. So they clearly have control over their own actions.

>>281199299
And he learned nothing out of it. A tiger might go a while not attacking humans but that doesn't meant it can't change on a dime.
Not only that but they've been shown historically to be genocidal.
Frieren is not going out exterminating them, but if she comes across them she will tend to treat them like the beasts they are. She even gave Macht a chance, and all he did was prove her right.

>>281199231
>Where is it shown that the demons in Frieren think in an alien way completely differently from humans?
They're doing it 100% of the time they're on screen.
>don't say "it's stated"
>narrative statements to build the setting don't count(??)

>>281198901

They not wanting to die is called survival instinct. Any beast has that. Animals are also curious and feel fear, anger or pride, those are not exclusive to humans.

As for asking what a father is would fall into curiosity, in fact the question is there for the audience to understand the exact opposite of what you understood. Namely that they don´t know what a parent is, they are not familiar with the relationship or link the word entails, they do not understand it on an emotional level, they just understand it´s a word meaningful enough to humans so the interest is merely academic, it´s like trying to understand how or why a tool works. There is no sympathy or empathy to the interaction.

The porn for this show is disappointing
It's all either lovey dovey stark+fern or else 20 inch cocks penetrating every female so hard their stomachs distend
Sein doesn't get to fuck a milf even in porn
And not a single image of Fern getting jealous over Stark?

I think this might prevent the show from being a real masterpiece.

>>281199299
>>281199468
A Leopard doesn't change his spots.

>>281180989
It's fantasy. It's fiction. It's not real. It's immaterial. It's a product of imagination. It's whatever the writer wants it to be whether you like it or not
You want to know what's truly unrealistic? How you're still alive because you're clearly too fucking stupid to breathe.

>>281199522
>They're doing it 100% of the time they're on screen.
Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward. All of this cannot be explained by simply mimicry. All of this sounds like the actions of an emotional and sentient species.
>Narrative statements to build the setting don't count.
They don't, because the entire argument is that the series will SAY these things about the demons, but yet SHOW the opposite. Hence why I wanted example where this is shown. Your inability to provide that is only proving me right.
>>281199468
And the reason why is simple waving
>Lol they're demons and so we'll never understand them

>>281199583
Fiction has to make sense, retard. You can't just write whatever and expect the audience to slurp it up.
>>281199543
Wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. Wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do. They are incomparable to animals.

>>281199668
>Fiction has to make sense
Great, because it does make sense. You're just too fucking stupid to realize it so you want to insert your own dipshit headcanon to make it work for your tiny deepfried peabrain.

>>281199747
>Headcanon
No, it's pointing out contradictions between what the narrator states and what the characters state and what actually happens on screen. Criticism is not headcanon.

>>281198206
Because goblins aren't written like shit like Frieren's demons are you illiterate mongoloid.

>>281199878
It seems you're also too stupid to realize that characters are allowed to say things that are only based on their own knowledge and not what is the absolute truth in universe.
Do you also get upset when a character lies instead of injecting pure facts into your brain?

>>281199591
>Lol they're demons and so we'll never understand them
>Lol they're tigers and so we'll never understand them
We do. They're wild beasts. In the case of demons wild beasts evolved to pray on humans.

>>281199908
They aren't? Goblin Slayer is a pretty poorly written series overall

>>281199591
>the series will SAY these things about the demons, but yet SHOW the opposite
Of course...because the alien is in the middle of imitating the human. If it's imitating the human, it'll look like a human. ugh...
>All of this sounds like the actions of an emotional and sentient species.
These emotions exist but don't 1:1 that of a human. That's why they are alien. They have curiosity but the tears are there trick to humans and actually they have sorrow by secreting demonite, the demonic display of sorrow.
>Hence why I wanted example where this is shown.
Why are you ignoring that time Aura and her goons invade a civilian settlement right as they are feigning innocence? There's that edgy >>281182863 scene too.

>>281199992
Wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. Wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do. They are incomparable to animals.

I know this whole fucking thread is just bait.
But what exactly is the end goal of this arguement?
The whole point of the demons in the series is to be a dark reflection of Frieren herself, the kind of monsters she could've been if she didn't have the people in her live to help make her who she is, Frieren values the magic, but more as something to help her life and others, as well as something to keep her occupied, while demons only see it as a means of getting more power. They serve as narrative contrasts to her, who fucking cares about the " b-but characters being naturally evil is bad" shit? That's not what the plot is trying to do with them.
Serie already exists as a more naunced take of the topic for what they are, trying to turn the demons into this shades of grey bullshit only muddies the themes of the story.

But silly me. Making a post like this in a thread that was claerly made in bad faith.
Don't bother giving me (You)s, I'm not wasting my time on this shit any longer than this

>>281199942
>It seems you're also too stupid to realize that characters are allowed to say things that are only based on their own knowledge and not what is the absolute truth in universe.
This is another retard cope.
The story constantly bends over backwards to prove Frieren right in every single instance even when it doesn't even make sense. The story would also have to do a massive 180 on basically everything if the characters were truly meant to be lying about everything or weren't correct about the demons.

>>281199668

Frieren defines them as beasts capable of human speech and Lugner agrees that that definition is correct. He goes as far as saying she seems to be the only one that understands their nature but by all means keep coping.

>>281200045
>Wild beasts do not understand human morality
Neither do demons.

>>281200029
They said Goblins, not Goblin Slayer. There's nothing wrong with how goblins are written because they are simple. They rape people because they're evil. Cool. Goblin Slayer doing stupid shit is irrelevant to how the goblins themselves are written. The demons in Frieren are written by a fucking midwit trying to be clever and ends up being fucking retarded. They would have been better written if they were just evil monsters with 0 intelligence rather than this pathetic attempt at biological determinism shit.

>>281200120
But she's cute so it's okay

>>281200167
Goblin Slayer invented goblins so I thought it was obvious

>>281200041
>Of course...because the alien is in the middle of imitating the human. If it's imitating the human, it'll look like a human. ugh...
So they're imitating a human being even when it provides no benefit to them or are doing it even when there's no humans around to observe them? How can you explain that with it just being mimicry?
>These emotions exist but don't 1:1 that of a human. That's why they are alien. They have curiosity but the tears are there trick to humans and actually they have sorrow by secreting demonite, the demonic display of sorrow.
There's no evidence showing that their emotions aren't equivalent to a humans. There's no trait that they have that is so completely alien to humans that they could never be understood.
>Why are you ignoring that time Aura and her goons invade a civilian settlement right as they are feigning innocence?
Why are you ignoring all the times where they act like humans and are emotional and empathetic when there's no humans around? Could it be because your entire argument falls apart?

>>281200064
That point falls flat when Frieren has the choice to go down one road or the other while demons are biologically determined to be that way, so they don't really work as a foil because they never made the choice to be one way or the other and are literally incapable of making that choice. Your waxing poetic falls flat because of the shit writing in the series shooting itself in the foot.

>>281176694 (OP)
Just because I empathize with pigs getting slaughtered it doesn't mean I actually care or wouldn't eat them anyway lol

>>281176694 (OP)
Why did the demons have an army of undead hidden outside the city ready to attack the humans as soon as the ones in OP's pic were done with "peaceful" negotiations on turning off the barrier?

>>281199543
You cannot be defending them not understanding what father means. They're clearly intelligent enough to understand and directly relate to having a parent in the gene donor sense, they don't need to have a loving relationship or empathy to understand the fucking word they are using refers to the male genetic donor of the two parents. This is honestly braindead retarded on the writer's part and only put in there in some asinine attempt to wink at the audience when it makes 0 sense that they couldn't figure that shit out. And the fact they say it in front of humans who they're supposed to be fooling is fucking hilariously retarded.

>>281200259
>Why are you ignoring all the times where they act like humans and are emotional and empathetic when there's no humans around? Could it be because your entire argument falls apart?
It's your argument that falls apart that easily. The demon will go and kill a human on-screen? Last I checked, this is not normal. Just like that, you LOSE the argument. I'll now gather all the evidence like in those games where you say "objection!"
1. Aura does all the crying and the demons say a lot of things (to get sympathy).
2. But then they kill humans.
3. It looks like they really meant it...objection! It's done as a means to kill them. The proof is 2.
4. The theory of deceiving mimics is proposed by the narrative, then afterwards confirmed to be true.

You guys got it that demons are ChatGPT. There's no stopping the rise of demons or AI.

>>281200686
Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward.

>>281200946
>>281200686

>>281200686
>Aura does all the crying and the demons say a lot of things (to get sympathy).
She cries and shows emotion when she has no reason to. She literally started whimpering and crying when Frieren forced her to kill herself. She has emotions.
>But then they kill humans.
And? There's nothing saying that the couldn't stop doing that, especially since Macht was able to do it for fifty whole years.
>It looks like they really meant it...objection! It's done as a means to kill them. The proof is 2.
Are you talking about them begging for their life? They genuinely don't want to die, so they 'act' afraid of dying... in order to not die. How is that deception if their internal feelings and their external ones are the same?
>The theory of deceiving mimics is proposed by the narrative, then afterwards confirmed to be true.
No, it isn't because it regularly contradicts itself as is shown here.

>>281176694 (OP)
They mimick humans in private in order to practice

>>281199543
Demons are consistently said to use faking empathy/emotion as a survival tool/tool to trick humans to kill them. Yet in chapter 72 we see a young demon actively ask for Revolte's approval, despite being unaware of any humans around, including Genau who ends up killing him. When Macht is in his last death throes, he literally goes to see Gluck despite the human offering 0 survival utility. This directly contradicts what we've been told, and there are a few other examples of demons acting with emotion against their survival even when there are 0 humans around (or at least to the demons' knowledge)

>>281200064
Demons are consistently said to use faking empathy/emotion as a survival tool/tool to trick humans to kill them. Yet in chapter 72 we see a young demon actively ask for Revolte's approval, despite being unaware of any humans around, including Genau who ends up killing him. When Macht is in his last death throes, he literally goes to see Gluck despite the human offering 0 survival utility. This directly contradicts what we've been told, and there are a few other examples of demons acting with emotion against their survival even when there are 0 humans around (or at least to the demons' knowledge).

Another reason demons are said to be absolute evil is that they are biologically incapable of having a moral compass and also biologically incapable of feeling human emotions. Except of course at the end of the El Dorado arc Frieren herself admits that this is not an absolute truth, despite the constant drivel from both characters and the narrator. An actual example is that demons believe it wrong and disgraceful to hide one's mana level, showing clear ability to distinct right from wrong, which directly implies they would be wholly capable of adopting

When put into context of Frieren's interactions with Fern and Stark, points 1 and 2 start to conflict heavily with the themes surrounding her journey and especially Himmel's entire character.

>>281201753
-Frieren is the most vehement demon slayer in existence, and believes wholeheartedly that demons have 0 irredeemable qualities

- When fighting Macht, she admits that the small possibility exists that a demon can overcome their biological wiring, but isn't willing to consider the sacrifice required.

-Yet when teaching Fern/Stark, she constantly alludes to Himmel, who is on record stating that anything is possible, even overcoming one's biological limitations no matter the difficulty (aka him not being the destined hero). It's clear what the writer is TELLING the readers, but there are plenty enough examples contradicting those words that present significant issues with the stories theming that bring up doubts about the story's quality.

The criticism is that despite constantly TELLING readers that demons are verbatim 'pure evil' and 'cannot change their nature' through multiple avenues including Frieren, narrative voices, and even the demons themselves, we are shown multiple examples contradicting this. This is a moral dilemma specifically because Frieren's argument for eradicating demons is predicated on the fact that demons are pure evil/irredeemable. The argument is that if demons are in fact not pure evil (which we have reasons and evidence to doubt) then it is a problematic philosophy that the story is presenting as justice, with troubling real world implications given how popular Frieren is. It's not an argument that humans should seek to coexist with demons, nor an argument about how demons are actually good people, it's a stance that eradication of a race that isn't irredeemable, even if they're mostly morally reprehensible, should be met with disquiet instead of fanfare.

>>281201821
>with troubling real world implications given how popular Frieren is.
When are mental asylum opening up again?

>>281202034
People online regularly talk about actual people in this same manner.

>>281202034
>No argument
lol

>>281202497
>the same old video game is bad argument
Shut it, soccer mom.

>>281200569

Off course they understand what a progenitor is, don´t be dense for the sake of being dense. You are really grasping at straws now... Frieren explains that demons are solitary creatures, what they don´t understand is the relationship it entails for humans. They can´t relate even if you explain it to them or even if you show them through actions.

This was shown on that episode on which Himmel spared the life of the demon spawn and allowed it to live a human life with a human family. It eventually killed the family father and offered the daughter to another family. It thought any kid would do because it didn´t understand and it felt no remorse over killing the other family´s daughter or the village elder.

>>281201396
>when she has no reason to.
Aura has all the reason to do it. It's a classic "let me in, a fairy!" she wants the other humans to lower their guard during fights.
>is that deception if their internal feelings and their external ones are the same?
even if she doesn't want to die for real, the display itself was made to trick humans after entering into human settlements, otherwise they'd express sorrow as magitite, who knows. This barely qualifies them as sentient enough, call it Creature A.

>>281180989
>How do you evolve as a species to
They are not a species tho, Do you think turning into black dust is something a natural species does? They have to be a product of some magic, devoid of anything biological or natural.

It's incredible to me how modern leftshitters have developed an ideology where being a naive frog is the only moral stance to take.

>>281203292
>Aura has all the reason to do it. It's a classic "let me in, a fairy!" she wants the other humans to lower their guard during fights.
Why would she begin to whimper and cry when being forced to kill herself? She clearly has emotions otherwise she wouldn't have reacted like that.
>even if she doesn't want to die for real, the display itself was made to trick humans after entering into human settlements, otherwise they'd express sorrow as magitite, who knows. This barely qualifies them as sentient enough, call it Creature A.
The fact that they have their own internal monologues, thoughts, and understanding of casual chains shows that they are sentient.

>>281203493
1. It might lead to someone falling for it and freeing them, or hesitating during a fight, cancelling the spell, etc. duh.
2. They're sentient, but not human. They are Creature A. Humans are Creature B.

>>281203493
I only grieve for natural things that leave a corpse when they die, it’s how the cycle of life works. Even a fly leaves one. So where’s Aura’s corpse? What’s natural about turning into black dust? That thing isn’t biological, let alone human.

>>281203591
>It might lead to someone falling for it and freeing them, or hesitating during a fight, cancelling the spell, etc. duh.
Frieren already has a reputation as being a demon slayer, why the fuck would she think that would work?
>They're sentient, but not human. They are Creature A. Humans are Creature B.
Thank you for conceding. If they are sentient, then they must be capable of making their own decisions, then they must be able to choose not to be evil.

bump

>>281178984
given he seems to primarily be pissed the pink one was killed quickly after she was introduced I think it's just an animeonly waifufag trying to pilpul around the fact he hates frieren because he wants to fuck the pink one.

>>281203409
Kill yourself you stupid brainwashed "culture war" nigger. You are just as bad as they are. Keep your retarded westoid shit out of anime.

>>281179949
How is it the same logic?

>>281203409
What does this have to do with left or right, dumbass?

>>281197304
>PSA to keep cats inside, they wreck the bird population
Good, a bird shat on me the other day
Fuck birds

>>281206194
eat shit cocksucker
>>281206231
who do you think is complaining about the "problematic" demons ITT or other social media websites?

>>281206292
>who do you think is complaining
I don't know. Who? You?
Looks like they blew so much smoke up your ass you're belching it out here.
I don't give a single shit what cunts on Xitter are doing. Go the fuck back, nigger.

>they look like humans
>act like humans
>BUT it's okay to kill them all, because you are the good guys and they are the bad guys
This is more or less what American exceptionalism is, and the only reason they get away with it is because someone stronger hasn't shown up to do it to them yet. I don't think this is anything other than the nip's national autism and WW2 trauma coming up again in their generic fantasy sol.

like what's next
>uh, humans aren't sentient, they evolved to talk and think and deceive you into
I don't care. This is ESL whining and trying to be deep.

>>281206292
>other social media websites
Why don't you go back there where you belong because you clearly don't belong here, faggot.

>>281206328
Notice how I didn't even say twitter yet your faggot mind immediately went there and started dilating.

>>281206422
Go back nigger I don't care what kind of word games you play to justify spreading your culture war nonsense here.

>>281206418
>>281206447
This amount of seethe makes me think that post perfectly described both of you.

>>281206465
You have westoid politics living rent free in your head where you can't help yourself from complaining about faggot "leftshitters" in an anime thread. You clearly don't belong here.

>>281206567
I dunno anon. I feel like you need to feed me more (You)'s and surely I'll take your advice eventually.

>>281206465
Whatever floats your boat, snowflake.

>>281206288
>gets (literally) shat on by a bird
lmao. ZAKO.
I bet any mesugaki would point and laugh at you.

>>281198901
Lack of empathy is not lack of curiosity.

>>281206762
A bird wrote this post
I see you in the sky you piece of shit, don't think I bought this hunting rifle for nothing
Fuck you

>>281176694 (OP)
Demons in freiren are the same as Orks in 40k. They develop hierarchies based on strenght and talk to each other but that doesn't matter as much as just being stronger. The difference is that Frieren demons also use language as a tool for manipulating as well as communicating between them while Orks only use language to give orders to the lower orks. None of this makes either of them capable to having human morality or values

>>281206677
Thanks, sweetie.

>>281193812

ZR

>>281206850
You seriously responding to a recycled bait thread made by a single deluded autist with impaired reasoning?

>>281176694 (OP)
>>281181272
When you explain them like that, they kinda remind me of the Blindsight/Echopraxia vampires.
Pretty cool desu

>>281206762
TOTAL
AVIAN
DEATH

>>281206885
Where did you find that video of ME?