Did you enjoy Fate Zero

I enjoyed it enough to remember enjoying it, but not enough to remember most of what happens in it.

I like the part where Iskandar makes Waver wear a dress and then rails him in the ass

>>281352603 (OP)
the best fate

>>281353103
worst

>>281353103
After prisma illya

>>281352603 (OP)
It's the only good Fate anime. Urobuchi could wipe his ass with Nasu's work.

>>281352603 (OP)
All I remember is that I thought the guy on the right in your picture was going to be insufferable at the beginning, but he turned out to be best boy. Also the bug rape and child abandonment that the narrative weirdly tries to justify by murking the guy that's against it. Also COOL.

>>281354968
>man fails to save little girl from worm rape dungeon
>this means the author was in favor of the rape dungeon all along

Please tell me you're not one of those "media literacy" people.

>>281352603 (OP)
Only when the main Fate cast wasn't on screen.
The secondary cast (including Waver and Iskandar) were great. The original Fate cast was downgraded into boring characters.

>>281355623
No, I shortened it to "murked" because I don't remember the exact details of the conversation, but IIRC when he is talking to the father during the battle he is presented as a crazy cuck who just doesn't understand wizard power hierarchy or some shit.

>>281352979
i didnt enjoy it

>>281352603 (OP)
Good parts of Fate Zero:
>The battle royale
>the "side" characters

The atrocious parts of Fate Zero:
>The MC

It's a lot like FSN in that respect.

>>281352603 (OP)
Fate Zero was my introduction to the Fate universe and I enjoyed it quite a bit. Didn't like the ending but it was a good ride until then.
Coming from Zero, I was looking forward to UBW, but I didn't enjoy it or any other Fate anime enough to see it through to the end.

>>281357741
That's because Zero is markedly different from most other Fate media.

Zero was specifically created to focus on the battle royale aspect and to give more shine to the side characters in such a conflict.

Fate Stay Night is a dating game first and foremost. FSN is about the MC and his three whores who dote over him. The battle royale aspect, the urban fantasy and the whole holy grail war system/mythos are more or less window dressing and it's not something that was originally fleshed out very well.

Hell, it's been 20 years since FSN released and the whole setting, mythology and history of the holy grail war system is still complete bullshit that Nasu just makes up as he goes along.

>Uro: Unlike Fate/Zero, where all the main characters are older, this one has lots of cute heroines! Fate/stay night was originally conceptualized as a bishojo game, so the very individual theme of "romance" was placed at the core. It had to be written from Shirou's point of view. So then I thought, I have this really powerful core idea of all these Eiyuu (heroic spirits) engaged in a Battle Royale, so why not draw their story from multiple point of views? That's why I tried to work more main characters into Fate/Zero other than simply Kiritsugu and Kirei.

>Nasu: I had no other choice but to make Fate/stay night the way I did for that bishojo game format. That was one of the reasons why I once said to Urobuchi, "I don't think I can make bishojo games anymore." The more you pour both what the author wants to draw and romance elements that will excite the users into a work, the more distant they get from each other... that was my dilemma. I think Fate/stay night does lack that "battle royale" atmosphere, but I really wanted to make it a work that would make the users want to get to know Saber and Rin better, or cuddle with Sakura.

"but I really wanted to make it a work that would make the users want to get to know Saber and Rin better, or cuddle with Sakura."

>>281352603 (OP)
nope

>>281357628
Nah, Shirou is a kino MC.

>>281355983
tbf that's what he is. He just wanted to save Sakura because he wanted to steal Tokiomi's family.

>>281357741
My experience was the opposite. I wasn't a big fan of F/Z's atmosphere and writing style and had to warm up to it.
I also didn't like how the main cast was so serious compared to the more lively main cast from FSN.

>>281354869
That's how Zero was made lol. Urobuchi took all that was great about FSN and made it shit.

>>281357875
The side characters is why Zero sucks. Its core cast of characters is great, but so much pointless time is wasted on dogshit annoying characters. FSN is a character study, and it is a perfectly constructed character study. UBW in perfectly written such that nothing in it is superfluous, everything has its place, its purpose and its value. Zero is a sloppily slapped together mess because it has no central anchor, no overarching theme, and no telos. Its purpose is to be set up for FSN, so none of the characters gel well together. Kirei is entertaining, but his depth is wholly missing from Zero. In FSN, his character was about his seeking to discover if morality is objective and ordained by God, or a social construct with no intrinsic merit. Whichever option is true, it doesn't really matter, Kirei will still be miserable; if morality is real, then God created him a sadist who can only find pleasure in cruelty against others as a sick practical joke, and he is a degenerate reject, which is why Kirei is portrayed as questioning God and resenting Him; if it is not, then he has been feeling guilt and regret over nothing all along. Kirei's goals are utterly irrational, as he won't ever get so AM's reaction to destroying humanity; but that's the point. He has no meaning or purpose in life, and he makes a perfect foil for HF Shirou, who decides to change, whereas Kirei irrationally clings to his folly, pursuing the same path he always had. None of this is presented in Zero; Kirei and Kiritsugu's entire relationship pivots around the fact that Kirei expects Kiritsugu to be the one that can understand him, but he doesn't. Kirei only gets to find his match in Shirou, in HF. The entire arc around Kirei revolves around his arc in HF, and most of his character is poorly explained. Many other issues with Zero like these.

>>281352603 (OP)
The zenith of the TYPE-MOON franchise's popularity. It has been going down since then.

>>281359876
>The side characters is why Zero sucks
come on now. you're supposed to hide the tell further into your troll post so that people don't immediately stop reading after the first sentence.

>>281360244
I accept your concession. You go back to watching Teletubbies now.

>>281359876
>The side characters is why Zero sucks. Its core cast of characters is great

>>281361744
Zerobabies baka

>>281352603 (OP)
Enjoyable...but after watching all the ufotable works, I feel like to really enjoy Fate to the fullest you have to kind of be balls deep into it.
Being a casual who just passes by and consumes ufotable's shows without full or proper context makes me feel like it's probably better than it seems for someone who 'does it properly' and puts in the effort.
But most people(myself included) aren't really going to do that realistically, so they don't get as much as they could out of it.
The same concept applies to other franchises as well I think.

>>281352603 (OP)
No, like Psycho Pass it is not only preachy and dumb but transparently derivitive of stupid American cultural products. It ends in The Dark Knight's Batcave because it is a ripoff of Batman (Kiritsugu) vs. The Joker (Kirie), meanwhile Psycho Pass is literally completely indistinguishable intellectually from dumb shows like CSI and Criminal Minds. Urobuchi is hack.

Reminder Iskandar could have won against Gilgamesh if Waver hadn't wasted all 3 of his command spells right before the fight like a retard.

>>281362531
How could he have won against Ea?

>>281362764
The same way Shirou did: by cutting Gilgamesh down before he could use it.
And with 3 command spells Waver could've definitely helped him get there.

I preferred Akio Otsuka as Gunha instead of Iskander

>>281352603 (OP)
I did, but I don't feel like rewatching it

>>281357875
spoken like a true fate fan who hasn't read fsn

>>281363313
Same

>>281352603 (OP)
Better than Fate Stay Night. Those VN fuckers lied to me, probably because they were watching the movie while the VN dialogue was scrolling in the back of their minds. Anime and movie-wise, Shiro is a fucking lame shounen-ass MC.

Urobuchi took all that was bad about FSN and made it good.

>>281364720
Other way around.

>>281357875
Yes that's the whole reason why F:S/N is worth playing. In addition to Saber, Sakura and Rin, there's also Taiga and Ilya, and in the fan disc two more girls to drool over.

If I wanted high litterature I'd be reading something else.

>>281355983
Kariya very much was. His true goals, though he didn't admit it to himself until his end, was that he was just jealous of Tokiomi Tohsaka and wanted to save his daughter so he could be a big damn hero to Tokiomi's wife so she'd run away with him.

>>281363091
its been so long since I watched Zero I didnt even recognize that was him, damn.

The threads for this were fun

>>281360053
>when you color correct so hard that lime green eyes turn completely blue

>>281366550
is this your first time seeing a gif

I masturbated to porn of this big dude fucking this little dude, and the redhead twink too. That's about all i got out of fate.

>>281362531
>>281362971
>this delusional
Gil could've easily kill him with GoB. He like Iskandar which is why he pulled out Ea.

Diarmuid>Cu

>>281352603 (OP)
Yes

>>281361374
Why do you talk about Teletubbies anon? Is there something you are not telling us?

>>281352603 (OP)
>>281352979
>>281355677
Why is there so much gay undertone in Fate/Zero?

>>281359360
Kiritsugu was the MC in Zero. While I like him, I can see why others have a problem with the Mage killer.

>>281367384
With 2 or 3 command spells Iskandar would have been in front of Gilgamesh in a second.

This thread is too damn gay. Post some Saber. Preferably her derriere.

>>281352603 (OP)
I love it but I wish VNfags and animeonlies would stop fighting over every little thing just because some people were introduced to it first. I've honestly reached the point where I stopped giving a shit about all the shitflinging on different sides and just enjoy all things Fate. Sure, I have my own personal quibbles with Nasu and everyone else who's worked on it, and I'm not alien to talking about that with others, but I still cherish my experience with the franchise as a whole and it's hard to get worked up over every little thing when Fate has plenty of detractors outside its own fandom.

It's funny too because nowadays I see a lot of people barely even remembering it as the years have gone by, with newer generations only being exposed to the UBW/HF anime and FGO. Hell I've seen zoomers unironically not know that Saber is meant to be literally King Arthur straight from medieval times, assuming that she's just another heroine from some fantasy/isekai show (no I'm not kidding).

>>281368018
No, not really. The way in which Waver used his CS gave Iskandar as much strength as they could have. They gave him a general increase in power and energy across the board far beyond his normal strength. The fact he was able to get remotely close to Gilgamesh was already miraculous.
Getting close to Gilgamesh simply wouldn't have been enough anyway. Herakles got close and was still restrained at point blank range.

Too much Gilgamesh wank.

>>281352603 (OP)
Who fucks who in the mana transfer here I’m not sure when there’s a Greek involved

>>281368158
Command spells can get servants to teleport. If Waver had used his command spells to STAB HIM FAST Iskandar would have made it.

Part of me really wishes Other Night was made instead of HF so SN, ON and HA could've be the "Fate Trilogy", but alas, Zero also fits as part of the trio.
The Master/Servant setups and the battle scenes, albeit a bit derivative of FSN, were the strongest parts of Zero. Caster's last stand feat. Berserker was much akin to the 2/3 climaxes that were in all 3 routes of FSN, and it was amazing all throughout. The fantastic OIST also makes me wish Zero was in VN form rather than LN form - would've loved seeing Takeuchi CGs of all the major scenes.
Other than that, most of Zero is clouded in expositions about characters whom barely matter in the plot, or fights that have little reason to exist besides torturing Kerry's trio. The anime exacerbates that factor with key-janglesome padding, but even in the original LN it felt wishy-washy. As a prequel story, it's doomed to have its cast be thrown in the trash the instant the story ends. Uro genuinely might've done his best to make things flow well and give the story some legs to stand on, but the mere fact of it being TLDR preamble de-summarified prevents it from eclipsing either of the VNs.
On the contrary, a story about the 3rd HGW would've had more potential, seeing as it practically has nothing to do with SN's story besides Angra existing for 1/3 of its runtime before screwing off. A worthless premise that could be given a stellar standalone story

>TLDR
The premise gimped Zero from the start

>>281352603 (OP)
Bill Clinton is a worthy opponent for Iskandar.

>>281368446
There are undefined limits to it. All we've ever seen in terms of CS-based teleportation is calling a servant to the master using their contract as a link. You can't really just teleport your servant at someone to have them shank someone. You can increase their speed, improve their skills, perhaps even break a limit they normally have like Shirou briefly awakening Saber's Dragon Core in Hollow Ataraxia, but they've never once been shown able to just teleport over to anyone. Command Spells are also reactable, so it's not like Gilgamesh would be totally unprepared for a servant approaching him while powered by a command.
Fact of the matter is that Waver did about everything he really could have to give Iskandar a fighting chance. He didn't have his chariot anymore and his mana was limited. Using all three CS to boost him and basically replenish him as much as possible was the most he could hope for at that point.

>>281368538
>Other Night

QRD?

>>281352603 (OP)
Pretty good. F/SN (the UBW route specifically) remains my favorite but F/Z was really good too.

>>281368538
I think it's an exercise in frustration to judge a story's worth based on how much it contributes to the final canon outcome of a story. Zero could have done away with much of the filler and sorted its pacing and still be a very compelling story even if the end point was writ in stone from the outset.
Sure, the 3rd HGW is a lot more open-ended aside from a few key events, but that's not inherently anymore interesting.

>>281368598
>Zero could have done away with much of the filler

What filler? Zero doesn't have any.

>>281368571
For short version, Other Night was originally going to be a Far Side-esque separate game that included the Sakura route and the scrapped Illya route. Stay Night was, at one point in development, going to just be the Saber and Rin routes. Keep in mind, the structure of Stay Night went through several revisions and Other Night was merely from one version.

>>281367904
>suddenly

>>281368546
>You can't really just teleport your servant at someone to have them shank someone.
What I meant was that, if they are so powerful they can get servants to teleport to their master's side, a direct command to stab another servant NOW (repeated 3 times) could definitely get Iskandar to move way faster than he normally could on his best day as a servant.
>Fact of the matter is that Waver did about everything he really could have to give Iskandar a fighting chance.
Not true. We know from FSN that giving a vague command to a servant makes it weaker, and that giving a straightforward command will get a servant to surpass all possible limits for that one moment. Waver fucked up by using the spells like he did.

>>281368632
If we're talking about the anime, the Rin side story is absolutely filler.
Realistically, you could call anything that doesn't really develop the mainline meaningful narrative "filler" though. The anime did away with an encounter between Rider and Assassin that is debatably filler. "Filler" doesn't necessarily "content from beyond the original canon that was added in for padding." Filler can just be anything that is meant to pad out the runtime. The difference between "side plot" and "filler" is razor thin.

>>281367904
>see pic of waver flirting with taiga as iskandar laughs
>somehow it's gay
????????????????????????

>>281368571
Fate/stay night went from being a single-route LN (Old Fate), to a VN with 6-7 routes, to a two-part VN with 4. Fate and UBW were meant to act as part 1 and release right around the time of the finished game, with the Sakura and Illya routes (the antitheses to Part 1's subject matter), coming soon after as Fate/other night.
In the end Nasu wanted to jack up the retail price and get the writing over with, so he stuck the blueprint scenes of the Illya route onto the Sakura route (originally meant to be the shortest route of the VN), and made Heaven's Feel be the third route of SN. In the end, the cut Illya route managed to leave its footprint not only in FSN, but also in FHA, of which its existence is partially attributed to the fact the route got cut

>>281368632
Most people (retards) consider character development, setting expansion, background lore, atmosphere establishment etc to be filler.

The true definition of "Filler" in anime is "New material added specifically to fill time while the source material writes new stuff." But the newfag invasion of course ruined that as they learned via mistaken context alone.

>>281368642
>the structure of Stay Night went through several revisions

How many changes did FSN have in development?

>>281368654
With the condition Iskandar was in after using Ionioi Hetairoi only to have it torn asunder, he needed the more generalized boost from the triple CS. A vague command gives a generalized, unfocused boost, but that was basically what he needed. Chanting "stab Gilgamesh now" thrice would give him the speed and power to rocket toward him, but we already know that Gilgamesh can deal with such a thing. It realistically would have done about as much as his charge toward Gilgamesh did.

>>281368699
Gil's only a threat at long range.

>>281368699
>A vague command gives a generalized, unfocused boost
He didn't even get a boost from those vague commands. Waver did it just to have a bro moment with his king.
>but we already know that Gilgamesh can deal with such a thing
Shirou would argue otherwise.

>>281368684
>The true definition of "Filler" in anime is "New material added specifically to fill time while the source material writes new stuff."
I've never agreed with this and there was debate about this in the old days as well. "Filler" is just padding. The context you're referring to is a type of filler, but that's not the only kind. You're being facetious to say that any opponent to this viewpoint is condemning
>character development, setting expansion, background lore, atmosphere establishment
as filler though. There are plenty of scenes in many shows that do not meaningfully contribute to any of those. Meanwhile, filling for time in an adaptation can contribute to world building or atmosphere if it's handled well.

>>281368743
>I've never agreed with this
Because you're stupid. Using the term filler for anything but that shows you have zero understanding of story writing.

>>281353103
After Fate Extra

>>281368725
Saber isn't a great bar to use to decry Gilgamesh's melee skills when she herself is a great melee combatant. Saber is far from unskilled, and is really only shown up by the more martially-inclined knights in certain respects. Gilgamesh has plenty skill in melee combat and has been shown to use his projectiles effectively in close combat. Hell, if you want to count later entries, he wields weapons just fine. Iskandar isn't exactly a masterful swordsman.

>>281368732
Waver's commands invigorated him and gave him mana. It wasn't totally useless and ensured he was in as good of condition as he could have been.
>Shirou would argue otherwise
I really don't think he would given that specific circumstance he needed to win.

>>281368748
Anon, something being put in a show doesn't automatically give it value. A writer is not the final judge of their work's quality or value, hence why bad shows can exist. Some writers simply fill for time with contradictory, redundant, and/or meaningless material. It doesn't have to be an adaptation to include filler. If a scene is inserted just because they needed to fill out an episode and it had no larger bearing on the narrative, character writing, or events pertinent to the work as whole, then it may be filler.
You've a narrow and frankly naive view of writing if you think otherwise.

>>281368785
>Hell, if you want to count later entries
I really don't even want to think about all the extra bullshit written by different authors trying to cash in on Gilgamesh fanboys.

>>281368823
>Anon, something being put in a show doesn't automatically give it value
And you refusing to acknowledge or understand why it's there does not erase its value. It's childish to dismiss something as padding or filler just because you personally don't see any significance in it.

>>281368837
If we discount things even as early as Fate/Extra CCC, then he's still competent at drawing and wielding individual weapons in the Fate route. He fucked with Saber and Shirou both and didn't really have to put himself out. Granted, Saber was gimped at the time and Shirou is Shirou, but it means he's not unfamiliar with close combat. He's just supremely lazy most of the time.

>>281368855
He got defeated in a 1 v 1 by Shirou who locked down GoB with UBW. Shirou was buffed by the sword's experience so he's using random heroes techniques/strengths brriefly but ultimately Gilgamesh isn't much of a threat on his own.

Doesn't matter, powerlevel faggotry is stupid.

>>281368691
read >>281368678 for more info, but I might as well give you the full picture
The first "draft" of Fate was what later morphed into the Fate/Prototype subseries. Nasu however calls his draft Old Fate, as Prototype still diverges from it somewhat. An otome VN with the female magus Ayaka, her servant Arthur, her crazy sister Manaka, and a few other assorted characters, some of which would end up being converted into FSN characters. Old Fate's story only managed to reach the clash with Assassin, who was still Sasaki and managed to get ported over to FSN's framework with little to no changes, similarly to Cu and (to an extent) Gil. In the end, an LN with a female protag would've simply not been a hit, and Takeuchi knew that.
Afterwards, the story more of less became the FSN you're acquainted with. With the exception that the route structure would've been more like Tsukihime's, with more routes that are shorter and a bit more half-baked. Illya, Rider, Caster were the big contenders, although most of their stuff ended up being molded into FSN and FHA's structure in one way or another. The parts where Rider/Caster would've become Shirou's servant, however, were completely left out of the picture.
Of course, the Shinji route also has to be mentioned, seeing as despite it being another serious consideration, 99% of it never managed to materialize. Shirou would've teamed up with Shinji, getting to become uneasy but understanding allies and at some point going head-to-head with Saber and Rin. Kirei and Zouken would've also played a major role as rivalling antagonists. In the end, the only remnants of Shinji's deeper (yet still broken) personality would surface in FHA and the UBW anime's drama CDs.
The rest goes as told, more or less. People meme that Prillya's the Illya route, and they're not exactly wrong when considering Oath Under Snow's existence.

>>281368847
Not everything is significant. You can examine and reexamine something until the cows come home and still find that it doesn't meaningfully contribute to a work as a whole. Sometimes less is more and adding something unnecessary can detract from the overall quality of the work.
If you want to talk about childish, then it's childish to assume something automatically has value just by virtue of its presence. The author is not the ultimate authority and one can err. This isn't a matter of personally seeing no value in something. Something can objectively contradict the core values of a work or be a misguided addition that detracts from the whole.
Why do you believe presence automatically creates value?

>>281363091
Gunha totally fits as a lancer same terrible luck too

>>281368876
I don't really consider it powerlevelfaggotry in this case. It's core to Shirou and Gilgamesh's dynamic. Shirou called it out quite explicitly. Neither of them are masters of their weapons, but Shirou created the minor advantage he needed overcome Gilgamesh.
He was just blindly letting the weapons work their magic based on their inherited experience, but that was enough to cope with Gilgamesh's less than master-class swordsmanship.

>>281368887
I'm not arguing against insignificant pieces being added to a work, I'm arguing against the notion of slinging around the word 'filler' randomly, like when used in Fate/Zero, an already tight work. Even worse would be to use it in Fate/Stay Night. Even thinking about using the word filler in F/SN would be admitting to having no idea what pacing really is.

>>281368885
>Shirou would've teamed up with Shinji, getting to become uneasy but understanding allies and at some point going head-to-head with Saber and Rin.
How would that have played out? Saber ditching Shirou for Rin while Shirou and Shinji had to rely on Rider?

>>281352603 (OP)
Pretty good. The only action anime that comes close in how well it involves political/ideological battles or themes is LOTGH

>>281352603 (OP)
It's an alright standalone anime, but not a good fate prequel.

>>281368917
Let's not act like Rin's side story is especially significant to the narrative overall. It was an addition for the anime adaptation and it's only real significance was to do more with Rin's character in spite of her having no indication of such an adventure in her backstory in Stay Night. It was there because they wanted a cute sidetrack before removing Rin from the story again.
This is not a random usage of the word. You could maybe make the argument that it was meant to give you something slightly more lighthearted as a break from the main plot, but it's hardly any more lighthearted considering what Ryuunosuke was getting up to. However, if that's the only value the little arc added, then is it really any better than being filler?

>>281352603 (OP)
Why was the anime too scared to show us Waver getting dickslapped like the manga?

>>281368926
I imagine so? That, or Saber would've acted to Shirou like she did to Kerry in Zero, being at his and Rider's throats.
The main point of the Shinji route would've probably been Shirou understanding that he's being a hero for the sake of self-gratification, all while Wakame's human sins (born from circumstance) would be juxtaposed with Kirei and Zouken's (born from within).
>We would've loved for fans to see Wakame's positive traits, but since we didn't have the time to make the route where those showed up, shikatanai...

>>281369002
>Wakame's human sins (born from circumstance) would be juxtaposed with Kirei and Zouken's (born from within).

Explain this

Mion river battle episodes made me wish I had this. The lack of lighting + tons of film grain made them almost unwatchable.

burgers... the taste of murder...

>>281369120
This meme again?

>声には出さず心の中で呟きながら、切嗣は左手に持ったハンバーガーを一口頬張る。9年前アインツベルンの婿養子に入った切嗣の舌には、宮廷料理もかくやという豪勢な食事を毎日毎晩食べ続けてきたせいなのか、ジャンクフードの殺伐とした食感がむしろ心地よく、何よりも手先と思考を中断することなく食事を済ませられるのが素晴らしい。

As I look at the Japanese text, it really becomes clear just how overblown the reaction to the line in English communities is. The phrase in question is 殺伐とした食感, which a quick Google search of (along with similar phrases like 殺伐とした味) will reveal is a well-established turn of phrase referring to how bland low-quality food tastes. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a conversation in the Arcueid route between Shiki and Arcueid that's about precisely this.

>This fast food, filled with the sense of slaughter, was more suited to his tastes

It would perhaps have been more natural to phrase it as "This crude fast food was more suited to his tastes", but honestly, you should be able to intuitively parse that it's just describing how Kiritsugu is a slop enthusiast. The notion that the line reads like edgy rambling about enjoying the thought of death and suffering like people seem to claim it does could only come from an extraordinarily poor reader, someone intentionally twisting and misinterpreting what it says for the sake of shitposting, or someone reading a partial second-hand quote of the phrase without any context.

Fate/Zero LN needs an official Aniplex translation.

>>281365104
This guy gets it.

>>281369030
Shinji's as tragic a character as he is a vile one.
He's actually a fairly intelligent and talented individual, but he's lacking in exactly the one way he wishes he was able. He was born into a magecraft family, and so he believes it is his duty and birthright to be a mage. Unfortunately, Shinji can never have anything more than the most bottom of the barrel aptitude for magecraft. He was raised on the idea he was special and privy to something secret and wonderful, but Sakura "stole" his birthright when Zouken adopted her. He was a kind, gentle boy who became bitter and resentful despite not really knowing what Zouken's magecraft entailed. As a result, he came to be resentful of Sakura and would eventually become a monstrous abuser because of it. If he could give up on magecraft, he could excel in any number of other areas, but he chooses to be awful and wallow in self-pity instead.
Meanwhile, Kirei and Zouken are natural-born monsters who always had evil within them.
Kirei was born broken and would only come to understand accept that trait with time after doing everything he could to resist it. His distortion is internal and core to his being, not induced by any sort of circumstance or defining event.
Zouken was an archetypal mage who leaned into the more unsavory aspects of magecraft pursuits until his very soul was corrupted. Still, he chose his own personal hell and doubled down. His natural propensity for horrific and vile acts was exacerbated with time as his soul literally rotted away, so while his distortion is internal, the loss of Justeaze and his unnaturally long life made it worse.

>>281369030
Shinji's basically a regular bum who got mad with power: that's his premise. You also have his cursed past, with being sent off for education out of Fuyuki, witnessing both his parents die and be used as worm meat, and realizing that Sakura took away any chances he had of being the Matou mage. That enough is alone for him (with Zouken's push) to become a terrible person over the course of about 2-5 years and get the personality of your average school shooter, in a twisted sense.
Kirei, however, was doomed from the start to become evil. He didn't want to repress his inner urge to dismiss morality, and therefore lost his way. If anything, him being born in a priest family meant he could at least do his duties with dignity and give his external shell a reason to exist.
Zouken, at the time of FSN's story, had been insane for 4 centuries. Any noble goals he had in the past were buried deep under the growing insanity caused by him reaping the consequences of trying to be immortal as a means of attaining his greater goal.
Shinji has no internal sense of morals, as that was taken away from him when he felt injustice from having all that effort he spent learning magecraft go nowhere. He also has no greater aspiration, as his inferiority complex (that he covers up with his sense of superiority) tells him he's incapable of fulfilling one. He's a complete tool, and the only person who could feasibly fix him was Shirou, whom (as Nasu claims) was the only person he could feel natural talking with.
If it's any consolation, it's implied that Wakame made Gil kill Zouken during UBW's events.
>>281369137
This. Having to settle with a JP->CN->EN translation is absurd. Although I'm pretty sure Zero did get a TL at some point? Maybe that was the manga though

Never watched it but had a good wank to Ishtar's feet once. So I suppose I can say I enjoyed it.

I hate Zero because it's popular.

>>281369211
Ishtar isn't Zero