Thread 283134293

What are examples of anime pulling a "both sides" when one side is very clearly the aggressor? Picrel came to mind, probably the worst offender.

>>283134293 (OP)
The message couldn't have been more "Marley sucks" like even the moment with Kaya where Gabi almost kills her, Kaya asks in tears why her mother and sister had to die and Falco says "because our country terrorized yours for no reason". I have no idea what the fuck went through Isayama's mind but somehow focusing on "how bad the Marleyans had it" in Eldia like Niccolo made me understand the apologist direction the story was going despite the themes begging it to not go there

It's honestly astounding that AoT botched this idea.

Turning Eren into a mysterious antagonist and having the rest of the story take place from the perspective of the other side would have been amazing.
Mikasa, Levi and Armin should have been portrayed solely as terrifying figures in an enemy army, instead of being the chungus heroes.
Just treat it like a brand new story that's made interesting by the meta knowledge that you've already seen all the "bad guys" as normal people and rooted for them in a different story

Instead the story peaks at Declaration and then the rest of the story becomes this muddled mess.

>What are examples of anime pulling a "both sides" when one side is very clearly the aggressor?
Shiki.

>>283134674
Exactly. The attack on Marley was great, especially the chapter where the survey corps attack Porco and he starts shitting himself in disbelief.

>>283134674
>story peaks at Declaration
Still baffled that a manga went from having the best ones in recent years with the chapters before/after the attack on Paradiso, and then shit the bed so badly that it's become universally reviled. Bravo Isayama

>>283134674
Survey Corps were portrayed as enemy villains in the Liberio raid but Marley was portrayed as the enemy villain of the story because they were and there's no getting away from that. The problem is that the ending subverted that by both sidesing it. But this take is interesting to me because it proves that no matter what side the story took people just ultimately want stories to take a stance no matter if it makes sense or not and avoid the both sides bullshit at all costs.

>>283134293 (OP)
Fucking Naruto did this every other arc; at first they did it very well with Zabuza, but then they kept doing it and it rapidly went downhill, until we got to Pain and it was 'uhh I had tough life, I get to blow up your village'

>>283134927

The issue really was making the Marleyan side so overtly villainous in Grisha's backstory.

It would have been smarter to make this story told through Grisha's own accounts and make him an untrustworthy narrator, and then cleverly obscure or sidestep the obviously fascistic elements of Marleyan society from Falco's perspecitve later.
THEN when you get Reiner's flashback, you get the truth.

>>283134927
Isayama might have been too subtle in his storytelling, or maybe it was just a mistake on his psrt idfk, although I don't know how that's possible because he wrote it and seems clear until somewhere near the ending, but people think an imperialistic country like Marley, who use the 7 titans they hoard to wage war against countries for their oil ventures, were the "good guys" because some vague notion of 1000 years ago global oppression at the hands of Eldians apparently justifies why innocent people with no memory of that need to currently be picked off and tormented for no reason but sadistic glee and greed because 7 titans just wasn't enough for Marley, they needed MORE titans in order to dominate the entire globe. Marley had *already become* what Eldia eventually did and their "fears" against what would happen if even one of the titans belonged to a Paradisian became a self-fulfilling prophecy. But whatever. I don't think the fans of this story grasped that, or what could have been.

>>283134293 (OP)
Yaegerbros, we stay winnin

>>283134507
The problem here is that the author was clearly biased towards 2 characters: Armin and gabi
With Armin he made up tons of mental gymnastics to make him the hero and forcing parallels with Erwin, and with Gabi he tries to justify her side

>>283134897
Isayama was made people was siding with Eren. Not an EHfag but I'm convinced the whole eren x historia was real at some point to make Eren a bad boy who cucked Mikasa but when he saw how much people supported that theory he backpedaled, it's why he made Eren a cuck and retarded

>>283135098
>not an EHfag
EHfag btw

>>283134897
>Revenge is bad!
>Punishing the people who almost genocided your people is bad!
>Avenging your mother's unjust and brutal death is bad!
>Avenging all of your friends, and family is bad!
>Peace if gooood!
>UH OH WHAT'S GOING ON, DID THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLING US CAME BACK AND DID THE SAME THING AGAIN?

What was the lesson here?

>>283134293 (OP)
idk about "both sides", but Orochimaru being allowed to run a fucking orphanage in Boruto after he was basically Dr Mengele (experimenting on children) was hilarious

>>283135067
And not only was Marley already the global genocidal force they ended up calling Eldia's rumbling (which was a survival measure), they were propagandizing their own people into not questioning authority by using the thought-terminating fear of 1000 year old Eldian Empire oppression to cover up their own current brutality. I'm not sure if this story was supposed to be meta, like seeing if readers also bought into the Marleyan propaganda, but it doesn't seem to be because the ending was also nonsensical in other ways. Ymir is a really questionable character too.

>>283135067
I think one issue that muddled things for me was how short the gap Eldian oppression and Marleyan retribution was.

Marley seems way more evil if it was like 300-400 years ago this all happened, but in the story it was only a short 100 years since the Eldian empire ceased existing which is like nothing..

You'd still have bloodlines and families who could point to their grandparents as having suffered at the hands of those in Eldia, and from the position of Marley if the Eldians ever figured out they had the key to obliterate the entire world wouldn't hesitate to probably do it.

>>283134293 (OP)
Two cucks

>>283135849
>in the story it was only a short 100 years since the Eldian empire ceased existing which is like nothing..
In the context of the story though, the Paradis Eldians all had their memories wiped and I really don't think 100 years is a short time at all. The Holocaust wasn't even 100 years ago and people have managed to forgive Germany. That doesn't compare to whatever's happening currently in the minds of people, that's why Marley had to drill 100 years of hate into their heads for a people who had become pacified and useless to hypocritically hold their own titans and use them to threaten the rest of the world. The pure irony and arrogance of Marley was assuming titan powers inherently made someone evil instead of the people wielding them. Ymir wasn't even the one who wanted to conquer countries, it was her husband who wasn't a titan shifter who did. He exploited her power for his own gain just like Marley exploited their concentration camp Eldian child soldiers for global hegemony.

Isayama never gave us human form Reiner vs Eren MGS4 fistfight to the death atop the world, and that alone makes him deserving of death.

>>283134293 (OP)
This one and it's not even close.
Fucking infuriating.

>>283134709
/thread

>>283134293 (OP)
Takopi's Original Sin
>side A:
>getting bullied to death by some little cunt at school
>side B:
>my dad wants to divorce my mom... so it must be the fault of the woman he's seeing... and so I must bully her daughter to death... yeah we are both suffering equally, girl A is not an angel at all, she is responsible for this somehow

>>283135947
>The Holocaust wasn't even 100 years ago and people have managed to forgive Germany.
I get what you're getting at but I've always felt there was a substantive difference between Holocaust comparisons and a 1000 year despotic regime. I'm American so that's more than 3 times the age of my country, idk if I could blame a couture (really global sentiment) that had lingering misgivings about a group that for millennia pillaged their lands, raped their women, and ate their men.

I should be clear, I don't think most of the people in the walls deserved the treatment they got for existing as a class. I just think Marley looks far less insane when considering their culture's circumstances. I mean, the entire reason they sent Reiner and co in the first place was because they didn't even know if Paradis had the capacity to nuke the world still. As far as they could reason, if the King had a random change of heart one day it'd be back to titan fodder.

The story seems like it's trying to paint Marely as roughly equal to the evil that was the Eldian Empire, but they seem like a far less one. Not good guys obviously, but more than a few notches bellow a hypothetical New Eldian Empire.

>>283135651
Kabuto is the one who runs an orphanage. Orochimaru is just under house arrest and surveillance in his fully equipped personal laboratory. Of the two, Kabuto at least has the excuse that Itachi straight up mindbroke him into being a nice guy. Meanwhile, Orochimaru just vaguely chilled out and it seems everyone figured that killing him (again) was more trouble than it was worth.

>>283136148
The Eldian Empire lasted 500 years. Willy dispelled the Helos myth and said that it was not a "Marleyan hero" that defeated the beastly Eldians as had been propagandized but that one of the peaceful Eldian Kings felt bad about what the former kings had done and struck up a peace bargain with Marley and wiped out his people's memories of his own volition. As an apology he gave Marley 6 of the 9 titans.
>The story seems like it's trying to paint Marely as roughly equal to the evil that was the Eldian Empire
It's not that Marley was an equal evil (we don't know much at all about the EE besides Marley propaganda which we know from Willy was peppered with lies), it's that they started conflict back up when it was unnecessary against an innocent people with their memories wiped whose king a hundred years ago voluntarily apologized for his past sins and just asked that Ymir's descendants be allowed to dwindle in peace and GIFTED THEM their current means of global power and what they used to attack Paradis in doing so. Marley killed Eldian concentration camp victims and sent their zombie-Titan forms to terrorize Paradisians to "keep them in line," totally disregarding the King's deal with them and shitting all over their supposed peace agreement. Marley was the current evil in the timeline of the story, and there was no reason for them to try to capture the Founding Titan again except greed and not knowing how to leave shit alone and let people live - that's why they wanted to genocide all of them once they heard Eren beat Annie, Reiner and Bertholdt. Grisha had to fight Frieda to the death because the peaceful King forced the subsequent Founders to refuse taking up arms against other countries anymore.

>>283136463
And this is why the conversation between Falco, Gabi and Kaya is so important, because Gabi's like the textbook brainwashed Marleyan with every point in the book memorized and yet she still can't look Kaya in the eye and tell her that her mom was killed by a zombie-Titan former-person Marley sent over to Paradis just to be cruel for any good reason. Falco finally admits what Marley actually is, a greedy terrorist empire that is guilty of everything they accused the Eldian Empire of being.

>>283136021

Reiner and Falco were clearly set-up to be the ones to defeat Eren and becomes heroes. Reiner would be the Helos that defeated Eren, and Falco would be the symbol of a new perspective unchained from the sins of the past.

The fact that Armin took both these roles AND also become the leader of the survey corps (Jean's rightful role) is laughable. I don't know where the writing completely fell apart but I guess when Falco didn't inherit the Beast titan from Zeke that was the first major symptom that nothing was planned properly anymore.

>>283136521
To illustrate my point, this is a drawing of a historical retelling of the Eldian Empire attacking Marley. These are all the titans Marley accepted from the Eldian King and used with to terrorize the world and Paradis after they were gifted them. The only one missing is the Founder - the only one Paradis had and Marley sought after.

>>283134293 (OP)
Isayama made a huge mistake by showing us Grisha's life directly. like what the fuck do you mean those cartoonish villains we saw were actually in right? there is basically no going back after that and no, showing us that Marley suffered as well under Eldia doesn't mean that much either. could have given us glimpses from Grisha's perspective and left it to us to theorise on context and only after eren and Zeke go for the journey in paths shown us the context of everything happening because of grisha being part of restorationists. also toning down the concentration camps from Reiner's perspective and straight up not having Grisha's sister fed to the dogs would at least improve the story.

>>283135067
Marley was objectively and morally correct.

Eldians are complete slaves and can be mind controlled by the founding Titan. Permitting them to continue to breed and exist ensures that more of these slaves are coming into being. Marley was actually extremely moral for not genociding them completely outright.

And guess what? When the Eldians finally obtain the Rumbling, they genocide the ENTIRE war, even their allies in (not-Japan) and the conquered minorities in Marley.

Marley is correct.

>>283136463
>The Eldian Empire lasted 500 years
Sorry I was wrong about this, I just remembered that quote where Eren K. said "It just doesn't add up... 2000 years? Why would any other nation be alive then?" Also it's crazy that Marley was able to approximate the EE's level of power and influence over the world they gained in 2000 years in just 100 just because they were gifted titans. But it's "not evil" when TITANS titans do it because they're just killing towelheads and innocent blank slate people I guess.

>>283136463
>>283136463 (You) #
>The Eldian Empire lasted 500 years
Sorry I was wrong about this, I just remembered that quote where Eren K. said "It just doesn't add up... 2000 years? Why would any other nation be alive then?" Also it's crazy that Marley was able to approximate the EE's level of power and influence over the world they gained in 2000 years in just 100 just because they were gifted titans. But it's "not evil" when MARLEY's titans do it because they're just killing towelheads and innocent blank slate children I guess.

>Willy dispelled the Helos myth and said that it was not a "Marleyan hero" that defeated the beastly Eldians as had been propagandized but that one of the peaceful Eldian Kings felt bad about what the former kings had done and struck up a peace bargain with Marley and wiped out his people's memories of his own volition. As an apology he gave Marley 6 of the 9 titans.
Yeah, but most of Marleyan culture was predicated on that myth. You can lay the blame on the Tyburs I guess, but as far as the Marleyan populace (and seemingly even most of top brass) were aware that's how things went. The peace treaty doesn't mean much when the titan that really matters is the one they kept.

>>283136463>
>Marley was the current evil in the timeline of the story, and there was no reason for them to try to capture the Founding Titan again except greed and not knowing how to leave shit alone and let people live
Marley wasn't aware of this though and had no reason to believe it would last... As far as they were aware at any moment whoever was in charge over there could activate the rumbling and kill them all again.

It's also important to remember it wasn't JUST Marley that hated Paradis, EVERYONE hated them except a contingent of people in (not)Japan and Onkyokopon lmfao.

>>283136881
>Also it's crazy that Marley was able to approximate the EE's level of power and influence over the world they gained in 2000 years in just 100 just because they were gifted titans. But it's "not evil" when MARLEY's titans do it because they're just killing towelheads and innocent blank slate children I guess.
I'm not saying it wasn't evil. It just registers as meaningfully different. Marley was fine with making treaties and seemed to treat War more like how we do irl. The depiction we get from the EE is that they were just power hungry sadists who enslaved and subjugated people because their King was comically psychopathic. Also, the eldian empire RULED for 2000 years, they prolly came to power in like 10.

>>283134507
Because Isayama is a hack that copied Konoha vs Pain and changed the setting in Nazi vs Jews with titans. His goal was telling the story from the perspective of the Rain Village before doing a 180 near the end and showing Konoha's perspective with an apologetic flavor. Now you're supposed to side with Naruto because Pain wants to rumble his village and killed Jiraiya.

>>283135305
Despite alt-right chudcels latching onto his character, Eren was always a radical leftist revolutionary fighting for survival against a fascistic, genocidal colonial force, and this kind of characters cannot be depicted in a positive way in media. Dragon Lady from GOT suffered the same fate.

A lot of people subconsciously got the message but they are aware, deep down, that in real life they would be at the receiving end of the Rumbling so they moralfag those who empathize with Paradisians. Lol.

>>283137068
>The depiction we get from the EE is that they were just power hungry sadists who enslaved and subjugated people because their King was comically psychopathic.
That's what I was trying to show you with the picture >>283136672 - how Marley paints EE is kind of a historical propaganda scapegoat for how they actually operated currently - but since we don't see EE actually in action all we have is this image of titans constantly terrorizing people without knowing the humans inside of them. Just look at the literal introduction scene for Porco, Gabi, Falco. Technology was accelerating but the Allied Forces still deathly feared Titans and even Magath admitted the war against them was for greed and Marleyan imperialism, as always, not good reasons. Like, WATCH THE FIRST 3 SEASONS. It was humanity vs titans and Eren was the exception. The titans all were Marleyans! They were terrorists and not for any sort of noble cause. Even if they had only wanted to capture the Founder to ensure their own safety as a nation (they weren't), it wouldn't have been a nation worth saving, especially for child soldiers who grew up in a concentration camp.

>>283137343
And so the retroactive message of Eren vs. Annie, Reiner, Bertholdt is that Eren won all those fights because he believed he grew up with a right to inherit the world, that is, for the right to live proudly as a free person. The warriors grew up in a cage, made to feel guilty for their existences at a very young age so they lacked the primal will to survive (Annie's nihilism, Reiner's suicidality, Bertholdt's denial). The ending is a subversion of that in pretty much every way.

>>283135044
>THEN when you get Reiner's flashback, you get the truth
What truth? Reiner was the equivalent of an American solider crying about PTSD from killing too many kids in Iraq

>>283134293 (OP)
Isayama wanted the Rumbling to happen but couldn't think of anything better than having Eren see a future he couldn't change, so he ended up doing it for literally no reason. He could've fixed it by making Ymir the real big bad who caused the Rumbling to go out of control. Then "both sides" would've been played by the same villain and sucked a little less.

>>283137289
This is not even about right-left wing politics. It's a simple moral dilemma of will you exact vengeance or not? Or will you let bygones be bygones? Throughout history, it's been evident that "grudges" stay throughout generations and it doesn't just become forgotten by the next generation.

>>283137343
The problem here is that it ultimately doesn't matter what happened in the past because Paradis people were not bothering anyone and Marley attacked them out of nowhere because they were running out of ammo for their imperialist wars. Not because they were scared or out of revenge for what the Eldian Empire did.

>>283137559
Marley did not attack Paradis out of revenge but because they needed the fossil fuels and the Founding Titan to keep up with their wars against other countries. Paradis doesn't attack out of revenge either, it's because Marley keeps going. AoT is not about revenge it's about resisting oppression and colonialism and people still don't get it. Historical grudges also exist between France and Germany but France isn't going to invade all out of a sudden for "revenge". Wars don't happen for revenge.

>have the literal power to erase titans forever effectively making it so that Eldians and Marleyans are no different
>"le rumbling lol"
What the fuck

>>283134293 (OP)
Hunter x Hunter

>>283137343
You keep responding as If my stance is that Marley was a good nation or something.

I'm not pro Marley lmfao. To reiterate, my misgivings are with presenting Marley as analogous to the EE when after taking in the entire story Marley is more than a few notches below in their "evil". Marley's use of the titans from what we see in the war feels more 'mundane'. Titans are bombs, and Titan shifters are like artillery. From the flashbacks we get of Founding Ymir the EE is depicted as magnitudes more sadistic, coming into foreign lands raping the women and transforming the resulting rape babies into mindless eating machines.

The story at multiple points attempts to mirror the atrocities of Marley as being analogous to stuff the EE did or may have done, but the error (imo) is that Marley feels too 'real'. Their ambitions feel comparable to something a nation today might have, the EE feels like a fantasy dystopia and so when compared It becomes difficult for me to do the cycles/both sides thing.

>>283137579
>Paradis people were not bothering anyone
This is arguably because Marley was boxing them in with Titans lol. Sans Titans, Eren still would have rejected living within the walls forever. At some point someone who didn't want to play ball was going to get access to the nuclear codes.

>>283137289
> deep down, that in real life they would be at the receiving end of the Rumbling so they moralfag those who empathize with Paradisians.
I think is true, and pretty reasonable lol.

>>283137643
You need Mikasa to kill Eren to convince Ymir to erase the power of Titans also
>Paradis and Marleyans wouldn't be different
There was a 500 years gap in technology, Paradis would have been wiped out lol

>>283137638
Are you being stupid right now? How would Paradis know that they were getting genocided because these fuckers from outside the walls needed something from them? All they knew was that it was a fight for survival. Grudges are the reason why WW1 happened, everyone is aching to go war with each and other and Franz Ferdinand's assassination was just the very convenient reason they needed to push for it. War absolutely happens because of revenge, you think the US didn't just invade Iraq because of wmd's? Americans wanted revenge for 9/11 and they felt righteous while doing it.

>>283137693
Not only would they have no reason to attack Eldia, we are shown the only way to identify if someone is an Eldian is seeing if they turn into a titan. If the serum doesn't work anymore, and Eldians scatter around the world like the jews you could never actually eradicate them, and slowly people would simply stop giving a fuck.

>>283137689
>At some point someone who didn't want to play ball was going to get access to the nuclear codes.
...and they wouldn't have done anything if the rest of the world was peaceful and wasn't trying to genocide the island. 9/11 happened because the perpetrators were angry about the US support for Israel and Middle East destabilisation. If America had a different foreign policy, the twin towers would still be standing.

>>283137737
Except we know the reason Marley was after Paradis and the reason does not disappear if you remove the Titan shit. They need Paradis oil to mantain their Empire.

>>283137768
>..and they wouldn't have done anything if the rest of the world was peaceful and wasn't trying to genocide the island
?No? Eren didn't give a shit about the Titans attacking his home. He had never even seen a titan by the time he wanted to join the scouts, the quasi-unspoken dilemma is that the King wanted his people to waste away in peace behind the walls, but people like Eren desperately wanted to venture out into the world. You essentially get Eren even without Marley antagonization. Hell, he stomped out even the people who allied with Paradis as Onkyokopon found out.

>>283137723
>War absolutely happens because of revenge
You do know that waging war is an extremely expensive and risky endeavor and nations mostly to it to gain resources, right? France helped the US against England, economy went to shit and 20 years later they had the Revolution. Franz Ferdinand alone would have never been enough for WW1, there were shitton of reasons for WW1 and people were already read to go to war, they just needed an excuse.
US invaded Iraq for resources and control, not because of Saddam's alleged nukes.

There was no revenge anyway in AoT because that implied that Marley apologised and stopped trying to do ethnic cleansing.

>>283137638
>Wars don't happen for revenge.
Unless the regime is insane enough

>>283134293 (OP)
AoT didn't pull "both sides", it pulled a "fans and theory crafters made a better story than the author and editor did"."

>>283136094
It's okay she gets her revenge by topping her childhood bully every day.

>>283134507
Eren doesn't just kill people from Marley, he kills the whole world. And Armin's whole plan was to rumble Marley's military and then negotiate with the rest of the world to catch up with their technology. Eren rejected this because he didn't want to leave Paradis' future to chance, he dumped for Historia, and the dumb plot point about the necrokiss had to happen to end the titan curse. Eren was obviously a villain, but it still would have made for a better story if he successfully rumbled the world.

>>283137902
>people who allied with Paradis
Paradis allies were only after their resources, doesn't mean they were not a danger for the island in the long-term.
>Eren wanted to venture out
Correct and if there were no titans keeping them between walls and the outside was peaceful, you wouldn't get the Rumbling. You want to talk about IFs but the reality is that the rest of the world wanted to genocide Paradis and the only reason the people on the island survived in the immediate future is because Eren killed almost everyone outside. I don't care much for his reasons because they don't matter.
October 7 was Israel's fault.

>>283138068
*simped for Historia

>>283138058
>yurischizo (male) ignores everything because it enables his schizo fantasies
Marina is super straight.

>>283137803
Do they? Technology is starting to catch up to titans. Everyone was worried about the future.

>>283138068
The whole world was in an alliance with Marley to genocide Paradis and wanted Eldians killed. If you only kill Marley, the rest comes for you the instant you're done anyway.
Armin's plan sounds logical and not as insane as Zeke's, but was simply not viable given the situation.

>>283138163
removing titans does not remove the need for fossil fuels.

>>283138102
I don't really care about their canon sexuality and most anons here are too dense and stubborn to talk about this series seriously. I just think they look cute together as two broken people that understand each other's problems better than anyone else could. Besides the only male main character resolves all his issues in the end by deciding not to associate with either of them and play PS4 with his friends.

>>283138079
>Correct and if there were no titans keeping them between walls and the outside was peaceful, you wouldn't get the Rumbling.
This isn't true. The titans weren't what was "keeping them inside the walls" as far as Eren was concerned, it was the will of the King. Paradis was always going to kill everybody because eventually someone like Eren was going to come around and wield ultimate power to get what they want lol.

>Paradis allies were only after their resources
Mikasa was a Hiruzen princess, they had plenty of negotiation sway to amicably live in peace, but they all died anyway lol.

> don't care much for his reasons because they don't matter.October 7 was Israel's fault.
Eren (the jews) would have stomped you into paste too lmfao.

>White people moralfag about "genocide" and side with Reiner and Gabi
>Nonwhites support Eren
Interesting, let's hope the Gazan kid isn't given a magic nuke.

>>283138165
The point was that Paradis would still have the founder in that scenario and could threaten the rest of the world to give up their technology. None of the nations were capable of defending against a partial rumbling.

>>283137803
>>283138211
I don't remember them establishing that Paradis was the ONLY place they could get oil
Get that shit from somewhere else if its that much trouble

>>283138234
Your entire argument is that Paradisians would have had a hateboner for people outside even if people outside did nothing, no titans or racism or anything, and there is absolutely nothing that suggests such a thing. The Rumbling itself exists as a self-defence mechanism because the King expected a retaliation. It was never a tool to attack first and it was indeed only activated when the Island was on the brink of a genocide.

OUT BY THE ROOTS

>>283138351
>"Marley cannot ignore the massive oil reserves under Paradis anymore"
They said it in the story, also Paradis would be a perfect victim since they were essentially farmers and couldn't take on Marley. Take it up with the author though. He was the one writing himself into a genocide corner.

Parasyte does it really well

>>283138295
The politics of AoT was always retarded because realistically speaking, nobody would attack a nation with a super ultra WMD but they did anyway.
So either they get even more radicalised against Paradis or they stop out of fear, but that would be a gamble because titans would still be there.

>power of the titans can produce natural resources from nothing
>implying any of the nations in opposition to Marley wouldn't give up all of their misgivings for infinite wood and whatever that crystal shit is

Marley would have no power as soon as Eldia set itself up as a one-stop shop for cheap energy and every other country started protecting it.

The rumbling literally only made sense when Eren was simply wanting to prevent the cycle of the royal family constantly eating people, and only THAT made sense when Historia's child was Eren's. If it was a selfish decision for idealistic reasons, that actually made sense.
The mystery box foreshadowing was vague enough to be changed, it was then changed, then the entire story fucking COLLAPSES because all of the easily explained reasons for why anyone is doing anything just vanishes.

>>283138234
>Eren (the jews)
The eldians are a metaphor for japan. Marley is china

>>283138416
>Your entire argument is that Paradisians
No, A Paradisian.

>The Rumbling itself exists as a self-defence mechanism because the King expected a retaliation
That's what the Kind used it for because the king wanted to be left alone to die in peace, that's NOT why Eren used it for because that isn't what Eren wanted.

My point is that the the King was at odds with people like Eren and, inevitably, people like Eren were going to try and wrestle power away from him. Again, Eren killed his allies and enemies alike because they were further manifestations of a will that prevented him from doing whatever the fuck he wanted. Eren wanted unlimited freedom, not safety for safety's sake, not security for securities sake. Freedom.

>>283138663
Even if that is true, it works for both.

>>283138280
>Nonwhites support Eren
There are a lot of brown nazi larpers so it makes sense

>>283134674
That's what it was for a while and it was pretty great. Nice pivot.
But the stupid mangaka (really, the stupid fans) couldn't help themself. They want characters they know. Corporate/marketing also isn't going to be happy about side-lining well-esablished characters.

>>283138234
If there are no titans there is no rumbling either. You're retarded.

>>283138758
>If there are no titans there is no rumbling either. You're retarded.
What? If Marley wasn't sending titans over to Paradis Eren still would have rumbled the world because he still will have been disappointed his notion of freedom wasn't real. Pay attention you goof.

>>283138700
>Eren wanted unlimited freedom
Correct, and the whole world trying to wipe them out was a very big obstacle to freedom. If the whole world was simply minding her business, there would be no reason to killer everyone.
>Safety for safety's sake.
Safety IS freedom lmao. If you can't take a stroll in the evening in your city without getting raped or killed, then you are not free.

>>283138850
If you are able to go outside and explore without Nazis feeding you to dogs then how is freedom not real again?

>>283138850
Nowhere in the manga Eren says he would have still done the Rumbling if people outside were actually nice and not racist chuds. In fact, the events leading to the rumbling cannot even happen if people outside are nice, and Eren wouldn't even be born to begin with. Your entire argument is flawed to the core.

>>283138926
>Correct, and the whole world trying to wipe them out was a very big obstacle to freedom.
You aren't getting it lmfao, Eren wasn't preoccupied with saving Eldia he didn't give a fuck about them being "wiped out". He wanted a clean slate world where EVERYONE that wasn't him Armin, Mikasa, and a couple others were gone. He was willing to sacrifice his mother and father to achieve this, he was willing to sacrifice numerous comrades to achieve this, he was willing to slaughter billions of innocents to achieve this.

You're fucking blind if you read Eren's actions through the lens of a nationalist like Floch (who he had no care for anyway lol). Eren selfishly wanted his own personal idyllic vision of a freeworld which would only come about when everyone was fucking dead. He was a Pyschopath with nuclear codes lol not some Eldian Savior.

>If you are able to go outside and explore without Nazis feeding you to dogs then how is freedom not real again?
Your notion of freedom is nothing like Erens, Eren doesn't want to "be able to go for a stroll in peace". He wanted to go for a stroll and see NOBODY but his friends. Again, he killed his own allies, he even killed a significant portion of his own people just unleashing the Rumbling.

>>283137289
>a fascistic, genocidal colonial force
you mean the og Eldia?
AOT premise falls into the white genocide narrative (ie oppressed people broke free and now want to subjugate/wipe out the former oppressors), it only makes sense that alt right types launched on it

>>283139230
I'm speaking metatextually obviously, if we're going strictly within the narrative all the events are being manipulated by Eren himself so it's not even Marley fault lol.

>>283139401
Eren manipulated Marley into attacking Paradis and trying to genocide them? He manipulated everyone outaide to be out for blood? Because this is not even about Eren himself lmfao, you are fixating on him when there is a bigger problem here.

>>283137579
>>283137638
Yes, exactly. Marley needed resources, Paradis was discovering itself as an entity amongst other nations and fighting for its own survival, as every nation should. Don't know why there's people in the thread saying Marley is sympathetic at all especially when all of the Marleyan characters (even Tybur, Magath, Pieck) say at one point that Marley's motivations are corrupt, that they "don't trust Marley" or "don't fight for Marley" by the end of the story. Annie, Bertholdt and Reiner were suicidal shells of themselves because of the atrocities Marley forced them to commit against fellow humans as their concentration camp child soldiers. And even the ideological Marleyans like Zeke and Gabi became disillusioned from it as a country and divested from it ideologically. So then the message of the ending is completely muddled. Isayama told a story about an evil, corrupt country terrorizing an innocent group of people by employing Titans to genocide them and steal their God-given power to use them for war crimes. To me, the rest doesn't matter.

>>283139357
Yes, I mean the OG Eldia, but they had stopped and retreated within the walls not bothering anyone, the shitstorm started years later because Marley was now a global superpower and needed to mantain its status.
>White genocide
Not a thing, unlike the attempted Paradis ones.
>Wipe out former oppressor
How was Marley a "former" oppressor exactly? They were very much not former.

>>283139602
Eren manipulated Marley into attacking Paradis and trying to genocide them?
>He manipulated everyone outaide to be out for blood?
If the events of the story are to be understood as they are, yes? The entire history of Eldia and Marley were shaped by Eren over the course of 2100+ years so that he could wrestle control from the King and create his perfect vision.

>>283138068
Marley united the whole world, and the whole world's chief officers CONGREGATED IN MARLEY'S ELDIAN CONCENTRATION CAMP because Marley was the chief global power of the world and wanted to remind them the place Eldians belonged - under Marley's appropriated giant titanic foot. I thought it was explained in Marley's introduction that every other country was terrified of their titanic power and that's why they clung to their titans, to exert power over the globe. Don't forget that Eldia sent out peace offerings to every nation long before the Declararion of war and only one returned their offer back, Hizuru, another money grubbing country that was growing weak.

>>283139745
>Not a thing, unlike the attempted Paradis ones.
in the eyes of erenfag nazi larpers it is though. That's part of the reason why they love this manga
>How was Marley a "former" oppressor exactly?
Eldians are the former oppressors to marley and the rest of the world

>>283139675
Because Marleyan characters essentially get a happy ending and were validated in their hatred, mostly because their victims got "too violent" about their oppression.

the marley arc is still the best arc. it's everything else that is boring and overrated, including the first few arcs.

>>283139329
>Eren wasn't preoccupied with saving Eldia he didn't give a fuck about them being "wiped out". He wanted a clean slate world where EVERYONE that wasn't him Armin, Mikasa, and a couple others were gone.
Oh, that's why your takes are so retarded.

>>283139970
I accept you concession, now run along.

>>283139884
I don't give a shit about nazi Erenfags and their delusions bro. It doesn't change the reality of the story. Right-wing chuds also selfinsert into Luke Skywalker, does it make him a fascist?
>Eldians were former oppressor a
Correct but they had stopped and now Marley was the bad guy.

>>283140009
But you no accept what on the page. Proof you can't force retarded ESLs to read.

>>283139856
>If the events of the story are to be understood as they are, yes?
You got to read the story again then bro and stop selfinserting as a Marleyan. Be nice to people and they won't stomp you.

>>283138574
They expected to be able to steal the Founder easily because despite them breaking it constantly, they still relied on the King's half holding up their end of the peace bargain.

>>283140157
Wasn't the King bargain that nobody comes and fucks with them?

>>283134709
The problem of Shiki isn't bothsidism, the problem of its unlikable sociopathic characters, you just want to die

>>283140215
Yes and Marley broke that, first by turning Marleyan Eldians into titans and sending them to Paradis's walls and then finally by having Reiner break the wall.

>>283139884
I am not sure how /pol/ incel larpers being illiterate changes the fact that Paradis was the victim in the story and its people were oppressed by Nazi Germany? As far as real world comparisons go, the Jaegerists are basically Hamas.

>>283136088
>>283134709
Shiki made a lot of sense when you remember the little girl vampire is still a little kid and is (badly) larping as an adult.

Also the manga did it best when it revealed the Blue haired Werewolf actively enabled this shit cause he was a Nihilist and wanted to watch the world bird, so he acted as her muscle and progressively made things worse for everyone. Shiki included.

>>283140050
yawn.

>>283140103
I'm not pro Marely... as I've stated 3 times in this thread already. I can just read a story and understand what the motivations behind a character are.

If we're talking narratively it's a fact that Eren used his power of the Attack Titan to manipulate the history of humanity for 2100+ years so that he could get the chance to wipe the world clean. So narratively speaking Marley was always predestined to act the way they did. Eren at any point could have made Titans do nothing, he literally redirected Dana Fritz away from Bertholdt and then had her devour his mother, he was always in control lmfao.

>>283140354
Nice b8 m8

>>283140394
8/8

>>283138280
Both sides should have been wiped out.

>>283135885
You forgot the best part
>The ones oppressing and actively worsening tentacle man eating monster and human relations are Inbred rich tentacle monsters.
>Tentacle monsters are the true oppressors of all tentacle monsters
>Tragic backstory of some of the leads is their mom ate a bunch of people as a teen because she was an emo teenager and then it’s sad because she was executed for said crimes when she became a mother

>>283140354
Narratively speaking... Eren doesn't manipulate shit for 2100 years though. You are actually making shit up because we know what kind of shit he manipulates.
>His mom getting eaten
That wasn't even part of the plan retard, it was an unintended consequence of saving Booba

I wish Eren had succeeded in killing Mancunt like he tried to in s1

Eren x Mikasa was also a terrible ship.

>>283140501
>You are actually making shit up because we know what kind of shit he manipulates.
?Explain

>That wasn't even part of the plan retard
???If he had the power to stop her from eating Booba, why did he lack the power to stop her from eating his Mother?

READ and THINK.

>>283134709
close the thread

>>283140354
>Eren manipulated Marley
kekw
Look bro, Eren was dead set on genocide only after that racist speech or whatever, so no, he wouldn't have done the Rumbling if people were nice. Once again, nothing in the manga implies that. You are trying to conjure up a delusion where Eren is just a random Psycho doing it for the lolz because the actual reality is that you know that in real life you are likely from a country guilty of the same shit as Marley (which you indirectly admitted at the beginning lmao)

>>283134293 (OP)
Parasyte

>>283138221
You also forgot playing it with his brother and learning his moms pancakes actually suck.

>>283140322
>Paradis was the victim in the story
right wingers see themselves as victims as well
> Nazi Germany
Expect marley is not nazi germany
Isayama is a japanese nationalist, so Eldia was supposed to mean japan and marley was china.
However he chose to use (non)german aesthetic with eldians (names, blonde blue eyed looks, architecture, clear metaphors to norse mythology with the titan lore ie yggdrasil tree and such, pre historic eldia and marley looking like generic germanic tribes vs romans set up, all the gratuitous german in the soundtrack, etc etc. i'm sure even the name eldia comes from altered spelling of word 'erde', just like marley is mare, italian/latin for sea) for some reason
Hence attracting the nazi larpers to the fanbase
>he Jaegerists are basically Hamas.
But they don't look like palestinians. If eldians were actually looking like brown people the manga, I'm sure there would be much fewer far righters among snk fanbase

The real victim is Wormkun who just wanted to survive but humans found a way to make a literal God who just wants to mind his business the entire worlds problem.

I guess Mikasa shota descendant can do something silly and become a superhero with it or something else.

>>283140849
Eldia ending up similar to Palestine and the Jaegerist/Hamas movement ended up being due to how comically evil Marley/Israel is.

It’s like how the Superman movie Gunn keeps saying isn’t based on Israel and every Zionist kept saying he made Israel the villain.

>>283140849
What is even your point here? We know that Nazi Germany was not a victim. We know that by all metrics Paradis is one.
>But they don't look like palestinians
Are you retarded? It doesn't matter. They are nationalists formed as a resistance to oppression. This puts them with Hamas and the IRA (White people).

I don't give a shit what real Nazis say or do because it doesn't change the nature of the story.

>>283138221
>I don't really care about canon
Yurischizos (biological males) in a nutshell

>>283140719
>>283134709
Ironically it’s better off to say Werewolves suck.

>Blue haired dude is a Nihilist who wants to watch the world burn
>Our willing to go off and be gay with his buddy Natsuno loses any desire to live after his not-gay friend refuses to run away and be gay with him.
>The loli was turned into a Shiki by a Rich Werewolf from Europe, kickstarting Japan’s Vampire problem + Rich Family who tossed people at her to eat.

>>283140849
SnK absolves the actual Nazis of the story

>>283140733
>Eren is just a random Psycho
Eren is a Pyscho though. He's having delusions of euphoria while curb stomping billions of innocent lives into paste just so that he can remove everyone he doesn't care about.

> Eren was dead set on genocide only after that racist speech or whatever
Eren was delusionally holding out hope the future he saw wouldn't come to pass. He was a psycho who didn't want to accept he was a pyscho but every step of the way it became more and more obvious the inevitable was going to occur. He literally manipulated a younger version of himself in his plan lmfao. Armin even asks his why he did it and he just replies with pic related.

>you know that in real life you are likely from a country guilty of the same shit as Marley
This has no bearing on my stance given my stance is Marley is evil....read... I'm begging you lol.

Eren wasn't a nationalist, he didn't care about Eldia it was just a cope for his real motivation which was a very strange and naive form of freedom. He was going to kill every last thing on the planet because the world wasn't what he wanted it to be. He didn't care about racism, or safety and security, of the blood of his people; just a very bizarre brand of freedom.

>>283140694
Because he wouldn't know the titan would eat his mom specifically, retard. He only came to realise during the conversation with Armin.
What Eren can see and do isn't always clear because the time travel shit was a contrived plot device. He cannot even see if Mikasa kills him or not lol

>>283141330
>billions of innocent lives
This doesn't work because in AoT the people outside were mostly racist nutjobs that wanted to kill him and his friends and genocide the island lmao.

>>283141523
And they were going to work with the government who intentionally unleash Titans to eat their people too and it being one of the “good” rich privileged Eldians who said Eldia should be exterminated.

>>283141434
>Because he wouldn't know the titan would eat his mom specifically
Dipshit think for 2 seconds, if he has the power to control her in moment A, why would he not do the exact same thing in moment B?

>What Eren can see and do isn't always clear
Because he's selectively sending himself future sights, hence manipulating a younger version of himself. Eren at the end has quasi omniscience, the only reason he he's selective future sight throughout the story is because the final version of him is just selectively sending paths. It's the same way he manipulated his father.

>>283141523
We have no idea how widespread this sentiment is among the general populace. He stomped Ramseys all the same though.

>>283141330
>He was going to kill every last thing on the planet because the world wasn't what he wanted it to be.
Once again you are correct but you are trapped in your own delusions. He wanted freedom and the people outside were an obstacle. However, we are also shown why they are an obstacle. Lol.

>>283141779
>However, we are also shown why they are an obstacle.
Except even the people allied with him still were killed. He killed a good number of his OWN people unleashing the full rumbling.

Do you think Eren wasn't a nutjob pyschopath?

>>283141779
I'll also add, what he wanted the world to be was impossible (without the death of virtually everyone).

>>283141268
I must've missed the werewolf part of the anime.

>>283141690
Retardo there is nothing in the story that says this. You are just making shit up. Eren doesn't even know if his friends survive or whether Mikasa kills him. That time travel shit was poorly done and unnecessary since you can make Eren going berserk without the time travel, for whatever reason. The convo with Armin tells you it was an unintentional consequences and not planned by him.
>Ramzi
Yeah, innocents gets caught up. Happened in Paradis too multiple times so give me a break lol.
They said rest of the world hates Eldians more than Marley - also because Marley used them to kill people. The sentiment was very much widespread. Blame the author for not writing this part well.

>>283141932
The Jinrou aka the Daywalkers.

Natsuno, the Blue Haired Guy whose hair evokes wolf ears, the one girl in the Yukata, and the Priest at the end(who also talks the vampire loli out of killing herself because she was tired of living).

>>283141941
Yeah this is the fundamental problem. Even when they tried to find allies amongst Marleyan Eldians they instead found self-hating Eldians who wanted Paradis to be exterminated too.

>>283141861
Idiot, allies of Paradis weren't doing in to help the people but to get access to the oil reserves, they weren't helping them. Besides, those who stayed on the island survived, and they wouldn't have if Eren didn't do the rumbling lmao.

You're moralfagging because accepting this is a story of victims fighting back would put you in a bad position. What have you done bro?

>>283139329
>Eren doesn't want to "be able to go for a stroll in peace". He wanted to go for a stroll and see NOBODY but his friends.
That was a retcon. Why do you think the image of Fey being eaten by dogs flashes into his mind at the end of the basement arc? The whole point is that he views Marley and the rest of the world the same way he used to view the titans. Even when you take 131 into account, that still makes sense if Eren really just wants freedom for the people of Paradis. After all, even if Armin's plan works, they will still end up with most of the world resenting and fearing them. So, no matter what, they are bound by the past and by the perceptions of people outside the walls. Making Eren into just a psycho who wanted the world to look like that book, with no deeper reasoning behind his actions, was lame af, and also obviously a retcon. Do you remember the scene where he called a collapsed titan his fellow patriot? Was Aaron Yoghurt just acting in that scene?
>>283138639
This. Either the plot hinges on the retarded Ymir-necrokiss plotline, or it hinges on the child being Eren's. The second is obviously more compelling. That said, even if EH wasn't meant to be canon, Eren could have at least had some sort of line about how he's not willing to compromise with the outside world, instead of him just being a dumbass mass murderer for no good reason.

>>283141861
In the circumstances created by the author, the deaths of Eren's countrymen who stood against him were not only justified, but morally correct.
Always, ALWAYS kill a traitor before an enemy, and Isayama decided that he was going to write a story where the entire world wanted everyone on that island dead. In that scenario, the only reason to oppose wiping the world out is if you share their belief that your people deserve death.

>>283142122
>no good reason
But most characters got their happy ending because of him. If he doesn't do anything and stays a good boy, they all die.

>>283141861
The number of people in Paradis that died because of the walls coming down is far smaller than the people that would have died if he didn't do shit. So nay, not an argument again. Please do take it up with the author.

>>283142122
He wanted to have the cake and eat it. That's why he has Armin say thank you for becoming a mass murderer for our sake.

>>283142125
Eren had absolute power. Even most of Floch's followers didn't want to exterminate outsiders, they wanted to rebuild the empire and subjugate them. Similarly Armin's plan was to destroy Marley's military and then use the threat of the rumbling to ensure the security of Paradis while they catch up with the technology of the rest of the world. Eren's total genocide only makes sense if either
1. He loves Historia and the child is his
or
2. He's so pessimistic at the prospect of peace that he thinks that Armin's plan is just delaying the inevitable
The actual ending we got is that he thinks Armin's ideas of peace actually will work, but he was a retarded psychopath who wanted to kill everyone outside the walls anyways. Also Historia is a plot device who has a kid with a non-character. Also, Eren literally had no choice but to do what he did if he wanted to end the titan curse because Mikasa killing him magically cures Ymirs Stockholm syndrome, while Eren giving her the first actual choice of her life meant nothing. God the ending was dogshit.

>>283141941
>Retardo there is nothing in the story that says this
Read, I know English isn't your first language but I'm sure there's a translation in some language you can actually understand.

>Eren doesn't even know if his friends survive or whether Mikasa kills him
Because he doesn't want himself to know...because he needs his younger self to continue to be in the dark about selective events to get to the end goal of what he wants.

>The convo with Armin tells you it was an unintentional consequences and not planned by him
See Pic related, dipshit. He knew full well what he was doing, he just made the call it had to be done to get him where he wanted to be (in control of the founding and attack titian).

>>283142122
>That was a retcon
Lmfao, okay I guess I'll just disregard the canon events then. LOL.

>Making Eren into just a psycho who wanted the world to look like that book, with no deeper reasoning behind his actions, was lame af, and also obviously a retcon.
The entire ending of the series makes no sense of he was a patriot. Why start the rumbling and kill his own countrymen in the process then? Why Obliterate all of Hiruzu who posed no meaningful threat to them? Why Obliterate Onyokopon's nation who posed to threat to him? Why sacrifice people like Sasha? Why send Dana to devour his Mother? Why manipulate his father into being consumed by him? Intermediary Erens have varying degree's of love for tertiary character, but it doesn't matter because they're ALL being manipulated by end game Eren who doesn't give a fuck.

>Was Aaron Yoghurt just acting in that scene?
No? Why would he have to be? You seem to treat Eren as a character who never changed. In that moment he might've cared, but it doesn't matter because that version of himself isn't in the drivers seat plot wise.

>>283137638
>it's about resisting oppression and colonialism
By killing all of the other oppressed people of the world along side their oppressors

>>283134293 (OP)
Season 4 started off really strong, almost a masterpiece, but I found the last two films/episodes quite weak.

>>283141994
>the Priest at the end
I should have known something was up with that fucker besides being retarded

>>283142580
Yeah him overtaking a 7 foot Strongfat man like he did was precisely due to the superhuman strength the Jinrou had.

>>283137289
>Dragon Lady from GOT suffered the same fate.
Dragon Lady was far right British Empire coded.

>>283134293 (OP)
I just realized how much I don't care for AOT cuz I don't remember anything about it outside of the very broad strokes.

The more I read these threads the more I realize how much of a goddamn retarded hack Isayama is.
Dude managed to spark all this debate not because his writing was insightful or pertinent but because he was such a psued and fumbled his world building so goddamn hard that everyone has to take one of two illogical extremes based on which side they identify as more then justify trying to genocide the other
All because he can't world build worth a damn but managed to create the emotional equivalent to PCP

>>283142658
Dragon Lady was correct and everyone already had problems with the White Savior woman awhile ago but were along for the ride cause she was right. But the BELLS! THE BELLS! And suddenly she’s insane and burning people just because.

>>283142725
Also want to add if they weren’t whitewashing characters(which the later seasons did), Tyrion would have been drinking wine goiny “Slay Queen! Slay!” Because he WANTS her to burn the Seven Kingdoms down and stab his sister and brothers heads on pikes.

Or Varys intentionally causing the 7 Kingdoms to collapse to welcome a Targ to take over.

Or the fact Jon would have been a VERY different person coming back as a zombie. It’s why GRRM tried to argue for Lady Stoneheart in the show. Resurrected dead end up really fucked up mentally and physically.

>>283142658
Dragon Lady was executing slave masters and freeing slaves. Not really British Empire coded.

>>283142725
Yes I agree, they could not stand the fact they had created something that was objectively superior to all other forms of governance.
A genuinely moral totalitarian monarch.
She should have won

>>283142374
>Even most of Floch's followers didn't want to exterminate outsiders, they wanted to rebuild the empire and subjugate them. Similarly Armin's plan was to destroy Marley's military and then use the threat of the rumbling to ensure the security of Paradis while they catch up with the technology of the rest of the world.
Both of those plans are untenable.
Subjugation only serves to increase the already murderous and near rabid hatred the world holds towards Paradis, meaning that once the yoke slips even the tiniest bit, the island is done. A show of force, again, only inflames resentment and now the world's opinion shifts from wanting them dead to urgently wanting them dead before they could become more of a threat.
Within the bounds of the story that was written, the only outcome that doesn't result in the eventual deaths of everyone on the island is to wipe out the rest of the world. With a better written story, maybe destroying Marley and treating with the rest of the world as equals would work, but Isayama closed the door on that option before the reader even knew it existed.

>>283142526
>The entire ending of the series makes no sense of he was a patriot. Why start the rumbling and kill his own countrymen in the process then? Why Obliterate all of Hiruzu who posed no meaningful threat to them? Why Obliterate Onyokopon's nation who posed to threat to him? Why sacrifice people like Sasha? Why send Dana to devour his Mother? Why manipulate his father into being consumed by him? Intermediary Erens have varying degree's of love for tertiary character, but it doesn't matter because they're ALL being manipulated by end game Eren who doesn't give a fuck.
Because if he's ending the titan curse every industrialized nation is now in a position in which they can easily wipe out Paradis.
>that version of himself isn't in the drivers seat plot wise.
He had already kissed Historia's hand.

>>283143174
>Isayama closed the door on that option
I always wondered why he wrote the story in a way where global genocide is the only solution, because I don't think that was his intention.
>>283142542
Paradis survived in the short term

>>283142658
daenerys was valyrian, valyria is not-rome of the GOT world
britain is westeros

>>283142526
NTA but you are not understanding shit here. People all over the world want Paradis dead. All over the world. This is not a headcanon but something that people say in the story. Marley is the nation that treats Eldians better. Every nation sided with Marley for Paradis genocide. That's why they got stomped. Onyankopon is not representative of his nation.
>Story wouldn't work if he were a patriot
He doesn't have to be a patriot like Floch, just act like any kid raised in a country that faces brutal oppression. His desire for freedom stems from oppression.

>>283143401
Because if he's ending the titan curse every industrialized nation is now in a position in which they can easily wipe out Paradis.
>He didn't have to kill everybody to do that though. Once Eren was in control of the founding titian Marley was useless because Eren could shut down their titains, and even just a small section of the Wall Titains would b e enough to beat all the other nations without obliterating everything. They were already in disrepair from having fought (and LOST) to Marley. Even if still destroying their economic allies doesn't make sense. Paradis easily could have gotten themselves a good deal with Hiruzu protecting them given they had access to the iceburst. In no way did Eren have to go as far as he did. He only went that far because it was what he needed to do to get what he really wanted.

The Beast Titain single handedly destroyed that one fleet of battle ships. Armin transforming annihilated the Marleyan ports. Eren had access to that level of strength 500 thousand times fold.

>He had already kissed Historia's hand.
Historia's hand just gave him access to the grisha visions...
Only endgame Eren who is in the Paths can actually go through and send shit backwards..as well as access all the memories.

>>283143840
Oops fucked up my green text lol.

>>283143748
>NTA but you are not understanding shit here. People all over the world want Paradis dead. All over the world. This is not a headcanon but something that people say in the story.
I never said anything different? It could easily be the case that governments have official policies worse than Marley but the average citizen has a range of feelings regarding the matter.

>Every nation sided with Marley for Paradis genocide.
Because they were under the impression that Eren was going to stomp them into paste, which he did lmfao. Unironically If he had just done the Armin thing, BTFO''d Marley, and came to peace talks with the rest of the world Paradis would have been aight. Unfortunately that isn't the world Eren wanted, he wanted clean slate world.

>His desire for freedom stems from oppression.
His desire for freedom stems from an oppression that is much wider in scope than you seem to understand. You're another guy but read further up, it isn't accurate to assess Erens definitions of "oppression" and "freedom" like you and I would. To Eren, the King setting up the walls is "oppression", to Eren there being other people with agendas that aren't his in the world is restriction of his "freedom". He has an extremely warped understanding of these words.

>>283144079
>to Eren there being other people with agendas that aren't his in the world is restriction of his "freedom".
This doesn't make any sense because it would apply to everyone in Paradis as well and he never wished that everyone in Paradis died or to kill them himself.
Listen, just admit the author fucked up and let's close it here. Eren being a psycho doesn't work in the retarded story he's written, and I am not some Chadren EHfag that wanted full genocide. There were multiple ways to show Eren being a one-dimensional schizo, but it's clear he himself wasn't sure of the direction, to the point most people do empathize with Eren because he is objectively portrayed as an angry oppressed kid being put in a cage, and the reason of the cage being Nazi Germany didn't help the point Isayama was allegedly trying to make.
Eren does think the titans are limiting his freedom, not just the walls.

>>283144079
>Unironically If he had just done the Armin thing, BTFO''d Marley, and came to peace talks with the rest of the world Paradis would have been aight
This is simply not true though. Marley would rebound again in a short time, other nations would have carried through with the genocide out of fear, and Paradis had no tech. This was clear in the manga, not even Zeke believed that.

>>283144079
Let’s see: The First King

>Let his nation collapsed
>Forcibly brainwashed everyone so he could live in comfort
>Was going to have them genocided by the outside world
>Had his own chosen Nobility who aren’t Eldians genocide the minorities who weren’t Eldians either
>Controlled and enforce absolute rule to live in comfort via forcing his own descendants to bend to his will.
>Not Oppression
And the other plans of people ARE just as much as oppressive as Eren thinks they are. The King and his Will, his brother thinking sterilizing their people will solve their issues, the outside world, etc.

The fact that Erens views are ultimately correct despite being childish is part of the issue of what Isayama wrote.

>>283144079
>Let's try to genocide the people with a super nuke pro max, surely they won't use it in self defense

>>283144515
>This doesn't make any sense because it would apply to everyone in Paradis as well and he never wished that everyone in Paradis died or to kill them himself.
He didn't care about the people in Paradis is my point, he killed a shit ton of them activating the Rumbling, If you weren't in the absolute innermost walls when Eren activated the rumbling you fucking died. He didn't have a desire to Kill Ramzi (a stand in for the completely innocent narratively) but he crushed him all the same. There is a subtle nuance in that Eren didn't want to murder everyone. He wanted a very specific world that could only be brought about by the murder of everyone.

I actually don't think Eren is a one-dimensional schizo. I think he was a relatively interesting psychopath who we explore at varying stages of cope, grief, denial, and delusion. I do think Isayama muddled his plot in various places though.

>to the point most people do empathize with Eren because he is objectively portrayed as an angry oppressed kid being put in a cage
I agree with this sentiment, but I also think that was part of what Isayama was attempting to do? You spend the story assuming that you and this Oppressed kid have the same perspective on the world only to find out in the end he was speaking a totally different language. My evidence for this is in how Armin (our quasi-narrator) is in the very same boat. The entire time he assumed him and Eren had the same dream, but only finds out at the very end Eren pictured something far more insane.
The execution of this was undermined by the fact that to most people Eren the revolutionary is a more compelling person lol.

>Eren does think the titans are limiting his freedom, not just the walls.
Sorry, to clarify I don't mean to say its ONLY the walls, just that the walls even being there is enough. The titans certainly worsen the situation but even sans titans Eren's feelings, I believe, remain the same.

>>283134293 (OP)
>>283134507
Sorry but you got filtered. The message was never "both sides are bad". It's a commentary about how violence inflicted on your people generates hatred for the other, which in turn generates more violence leading to a perpetual conflict. It literally doesn't matter who was in the right or who started it. Isayama is trying to discuss a fundamental aspect of human psychology, not the moral quality of these particular sides.

>>283145196
Not that anon, but can you elaborate a bit more?

>>283145159
>I agree with this sentiment, but I also think that was part of what Isayama was attempting to do?
either Eren did it because he was a schizo or for another reason. If he did it because he were a schizo, he shouldn't have made him hailing from anime Gaza. It's that simple. Game of Thrones did the same but people couldn't side with Daenerys because she was killing randos for no reason, while Eren killed comically evil racist people that wanted to genocide an island, all while the author never really gives a realistic alternative to global genocide.
>Ramzi
Be serious man, we watched three seasons of innocent people getting eaten alive.

>>283145196
Yeah, but that falls apart the moment you realize Eldia didn't really want to fight back while marley was gonna genocide the entire island regardless.
Literally if Eren didn't start the rumbling everyone on paradis would have been dead.

>>283145392
And even in the alternative timeline where he ran away that’s exactly what’s happening to.

>>283145196
>Isayama is trying to discuss a fundamental aspect of human psychology
The whole shitshow did not start out of revenge. The cycle of violence had stopped, Marley re-ignited it because their Empire was being threatened.
>not the moral quality of these particular sides.
From the basement on, it's all about moralfagging tho.

>>283145392
Not to mention generational hate can be so all consuming that trying to solve it can be impossible if the other side wants to kill everyone. It took Eren succeeding for the Marleyans to start openly declaring they were wrong and all the minorities who suffered at the hands of Marley and Eren had to pay the price for Marley and the Pick Me Eldians to get to that point.

>>283144599
>This is simply not true though. Marley would rebound again in a short time
How? Eren could have just wiped out every military base they had... Hell he could've wiped out half the civilian population as well and it'd still have been preferable to complete extermination.

>other nations would have carried through with the genocide out of fear, and Paradis had no tech.
I'm not sure why Paradis having no tech would matter, Eren still has the same 500 thousand Wall Titains at his disposal. We already know he had the capacity to steamroll the entire world in a matter of days (because that's what he did). The only difference is just concentrate that destruction on their Military installations and don't Obliterate your allies...

>>283144617
You seem to have the impression I'm defending the first King. I'm not, just pointing out that the notion that sans Marley sending titans to Paradis, Eren would have been chill is false. He wouldn't have.

>>283144775
I don't understand what you're implying here. I'm not saying Marley should have attacked the people with the super nuke max, just that the super nuke max was always going to be used on them no matter how soft they were on Paradis. Eren's motivations are impacted that much by Marely, narratively that was kind of the slight of hand Isayama was doing. EVERYONE ELSES's motivations were that (Armin, Floch, etc) but they were mistaken in thinking Eren was focused on that.

Marley could have been a pacifist nation really and Eren still would have rumbled them because he wanted a world like that book he read. He was an idealist who's ideals could only be accomplished by genocide. He wasn't a pragmatist optimist like Armin.

>>283145389
Be serious man, we watched three seasons of innocent people getting eaten alive.
I'm not sure what you mean? I'm just pointing out that Eren was, in the end, not meaningfully motivated to avoid the death of innocents.

>>283145589
*aren't impacted that much by Marley.
getting sleepy..

>>283145196
>It's a commentary about how violence inflicted on your people generates hatred for the other

That's cool, I like how Falco and Gabi exist to represent this and have no influence on the final events, but Armin does - Armin, who's arc literally finished and has nothing to contribute.

I especially like how Eren does not actually have a real justification for his violence since he's not actually ignorant of the events of the past, and does not overcome the literary manifestation of the cycle of violence (i.e a closed timeloop of violence) thereby making his character utterly shallow and meaningless despite being the sole axis on which the final arc turns.

The senseless violence he suffered was caused by himself the whole time! That means he is to blame for the wrongs done against him! This contradicts the message of the entire manga! This is real and actually in the manga! AoT actually pulls a fucking Naruto and undermines its entire message for no reason! This is somehow not considered utter dogshit writing!

>>283145589
>How? Eren could have just wiped out every military base they had... Hell he could've wiped out half the civilian population as well
In the same way they did rebound from 80% rumbling and genocided the island 100 years of whatever in the future. The world was developing anti-titan tech and Paradis people were farmers. Be serious now. The world had a hate boner for the island and wanted their oil.
>it'd still have been preferable to complete extermination
For you or the island? Because the only way for the island to survive is 100% rumbling according to the story Isayama wrote.
If we want to talk about realistic scenarios, in the real world you don't nuke people with nukes so people wanting to wipe Paradis out despite knowing they have a supreme nuke makes 0 sense to begin with.

>>283145751
The burden to stop the cycle of violence is on the aggressor not the victim. This is the only thing Naruto did well. Naruto understood that his village committed war crimes and despite Pain nuking his village and killing Jiraiya, he decided not to get revenge.
Eren's justification lies in the fact that if he doesn't do the rumbling, the island gets genocided.

>>283145265
Setting aside the execution of this theme within SnK itself for a moment, there are more ways to examine a conflict beyond the moral paradigm and right/wrong. It literally doesn't matter who the aggressor was because that isn't really the point of the story. Lots of morally objectionable reasons can lead to a conflict just as easily as numerous compounding minor transgressions and differences in perspective and priority can, but that isn't the only thing worth examining about a conflict.
Generational conflict born from old bad blood remains a problem regardless of who started it, and very rarely are the people actually culpable in beginning that conflict actually responsible for perpetuating it in the long term. Over-focusing on the initial instigator doesn't actually do anything to address the problem and often misattributes blame while being used as an excuse to escalate the conflict.
Conflict breeds further conflict and prompts inordinate responses on both sides over time. A populace may go along with the instigation of conflict out of fear, hatred, misguidance, or economic "necessity," but the populace itself is rarely the actual one at fault for beginning the conflict, so assigning blame to an entire body of people for the acts of the few allows for existing disagreements and biases to become exacerbated. In focusing on who's to blame (and often erroneously at that), other issues "slip in" to the conflict under the guise of being components of the larger conflict when they're really just personal grudges or ignorance being excused by said larger conflict. You end up with a self-perpetuating cycle of violence where no one wants to admit fault because that would mean ceding on all manner of intertwined concerns as well.
Exploring this cycle of hatred and the complex entanglement of complications within it is a very compelling area for a story to explore when executed well, but it's very hard to do without letting one's own biases interject.

>>283145589
Eren would have not done the rumbling if Marley and the world were peaceful, because he wouldn't grow between walls to begin with. If this is your only argument you have already lost since you have to change the premise of the story to support it.
>He didn't care about the people in Paradis is my point, he killed a shit ton of them activating the Rumbling
And 10x more would have died if he didn't activate it, your point?

>>283145761
In the same way they did rebound from 80% rumbling and genocided the island 100 years of whatever in the future.
Are we even sure that was Marley? As the timelapse goes by we see the area that gets wiped out become technologically advanced. My understanding of those moments where that the world technologically advanced as a whole (the island included) and at some point far off in the future they lost a standard war.

In the scenario I'm proposing you just extort the world to give you the tech. Hiruzen was one of the more advanced nations it seemed, so don't obliterate them. Cripple everyone else, and then you and Hiruzen force the world to Marshall Plan you into the industrial age with everyone else.
Hiruzen must have been really eager to play ball considering the entire rest of the world sided with Marley so you don't have to worry about them geocoding you after the dust settles..

>For you or the island?
Well given my plan only needs parts of the outer wall to work, prolly both...
Eren probably killed most of the people in Paradis undoing the inner walls.

>>283145937
Is this theme solely on timeskip SnK, or there are glimpses of it also in pretimeskip? I guess the Uprising arc and the warriors betrayal has something to do with it.

The most absurd part of Attack on Titan is finding out a worm evolved into a God, and yet we’re supposed to believe its powers couldn’t adapt and eventually create Titans that surpass human ingenuity? Especially when it literally created an AFTERLIFE for the woman he fused with and all her descendants.

>>283145937
SnK is not about generational conflict though. People did not attack Paradis because they held a grudge.
>Over-focusing on the initial instigator doesn't actually do anything to address the problem and often misattributes blame while being used as an excuse to escalate the conflict.
This is a word salad to avoid accountability. The cycle of violence in real life can only be stopped by those who started it, anything else is just telling the victims to suck it upand stay put.

>>283142580
Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry Series.

The translation’s aren’t up to date and there’s supposedly a spinoff about evil Oni but fuck Tougen Anki, stupid ass series. You got Momotaro talking about how that time an Oni child went berserk and killed a bunch of people after they slaughtered their family, who could have seen it coming. It’s a dumbass conflict with the most transparently evil bad guys that love sacrificing non-combatants and humans but there’s a handful that don’t do that so maybe we should coexist. Fuck that series.

>>283146192
>Convinced a little girl not to kill herself cause he’s too much of a pussy to die himself.
>After trying suicide in his youth.
It is funny knowing his dad was just as suicidal and wanted to become a vampire cause he thought he wouldn’t be a cripple anymore, and made sure to word it so the Vampires can’t kill his wife or anyone who worked at the Temple cause he didn’t want to be useless anymore. And then he finds out it being a Shiki only heals injuries you get AFTER you become.

It ended already, move on

>>283145987
>Eren would have not done the rumbling if Marley and the world were peaceful, because he wouldn't grow between walls to begin with. If this is your only argument you have already lost since you have to change the premise of the story to support it.
You're jumping back to narratively rather than metatextually again lol.......
If we're going narratively as I stated before Eren was in control of the events that put him behind the wall in the first place. Even Kruger got fucked by Eren lmao

> because he wouldn't grow between walls to begin with
Also, this isn't true.
>Marley could have been hostile.
>The King puts up the walls.
>Marley gets over it by the time Eren is born. Becomes peaceful
>Eren still rumbles the world because he is born behind the walls.

>>283144617
>>Had his own chosen Nobility who aren’t Eldians genocide the minorities who weren’t Eldians either
They were Eldians but not Subjects of Ymir, they made sure not to marry with the "slave blood", that was mentioned at one point during the coup arc, I think. It's been a while.

>>283134674
What is a "chungus hero"?

>>283146144
It's not to avoid accountability. Accountability is still a wholly valid angle to explore, but that wasn't the point of this particular story. You can tell a story of two-sided conflict without focusing on culpability. I think people are often too quick to write off deliberate choices to avoid certain themes in conflict-motivated stories as "cop-outs" when it's also perfectly valid to focus on other aspects of a conflict.
>The cycle of violence in real life can only be stopped by those who started it
I can't agree with this because, oftentimes, those left to maintain a conflict aren't those who actually started it. Being part of the populace that housed the instigators does not automatically make you culpable nor does it give you the means to curtail the conflict if the victim chooses to perpetuate it themselves. Seeking retribution against and reparation from an entire population is only going to lead to further grudges as people lump in extraneous issues.
>anything else is just telling the victims to suck it up and stay put
And sometimes those who aren't actually part of a victimized group will claim to be victims to work toward their own agendas or seek catharsis in their own personal frustrations. Sometimes victims may also ask for inappropriate forms of reparation or commit increasingly worse transgressions in the name of "justice" for the crimes perpetrated against them, which only deepens the issue.
You can't deescalate a conflict without both sides coming to an agreement unless one side is totally wiped out.

>>283141330
When people are talking about why they dislike the ending or that it doesn't make sense, why would you use a scene from the ending as the crux of your entire argument which is supposed to explain why the ending makes sense? The problem is that it feels divorced from the story.

>>283145589
>Marley could have been a pacifist nation really and Eren still would have rumbled them because he wanted a world like that book he read.
You're a baiting retard, shut the fuck up. Can't believe people actually waste time like this.

>>283146418
What you're doing is a stretch, not a metatexual analysis. If Eren had been shown torturing kittens or wishing that everyone in Paradis disappeared, then the idea that he would have killed everyone outside makes more sense. But nothing in the story suggests he would kill everyone if everyone outside was peaceful. He could have enjoyed life outside as well.

I think you yourself need to believe that Eren would have still genocided everyone had they not been mustache-twirling racists because you don't want racism to be a primary issue.
>This Chinese guy punched me after I called him a bugmen but he's a schizo who would have done it anyway so I can keep being racist
That's how you sound

>>283146528

Levi and Armin are favourite characters from the Part 1 so they need to be shoehorned into situations that they narratively have no place being in.

Levi is the better example due to being the meme "badass" character that retards jizz over, who instead of dying to Zeke like he should have, instead sticks around to NOT die alongside Hange (??) so he can fulfill the important role of... taking Connie's role of killing Zeke in the final arc.
He adds nothing to the story, is just sort of there, and then starts corroding the writing because he's taking the oxygen from other side character who still actually have unfinished business.

Armin is the author's favourite and then manages to steal the final arcs of Reiner, Falco and Jean at the same time despite being a boring character with nothing interesting going on. BUT he was a protagonist in the first arc so he has to be the big boy. It's metashittery getting in the way of actual storywriting - Falco and Reiner were set up to resolve the story, not Armin.

>>283142526
>>That was a retcon
>Lmfao, okay I guess I'll just disregard the canon events then. LOL.
>Why do you hate the ending?
Because it made it impossible to discuss why the ending sucked without NIGGERS citing it as "reasons" why Eren did anything peppered with "lmfao!!" and "LOL!!". Yes we already know the fucking ending sucked, you don't have to bait people in order to explain why. You're just gonna smugly be like "well these are CANON events" to get a rise out of people.

>>283137289
Actual braindead take. The cultural roots of Eldia is Nordic/Germanic while Marley is Roman. There isn't a single leftist element in the conflict between them.

>>283147256
>oppressed minority struggles for survival against a colonial empire
The leftist elements are in the story, retard.

>>283144079
buddy I think you are severely underestimating the industrial capacities real world superpowers had in the timeframe the story is happening in. just 30 years after that humans split the fucking atom. there is no world where Paradis doesn't get nuked off the orbit.

>Eren wanted the world to look like ARMIN'S BOOK
>Eren's ackshually a VERY INTERESTING PSYCHOPATH and a WELL WRITTEN VILLAIN who did things for NO REASON
>Eren would have rumbled Marley EVEN if they were a nonviolent, pacifist nation and the story was changed completely
>Eren killed INNOCENTS who allied themselves with Marley in their plan for Paradis's total destruction
>Eren WASN'T A PATRIOT because SASHA DIED
>Eren ALWAYS CRIED so that's ackshually the REAL EREN
>Eren would totally kill his own mom
>AOT is a DETERMINIST story, everything is actually EREN'S fault and he's giving himself trauma for the SICK PSYCHO THRILL OF IT ALL
It's the story's own fault for creating retards like this.

>>283147793
>Literally no counterargument
Even Jean, Mikasa and Hange agree that Eren was doing this to save the people of Paradis. They don't give a shit. This is what the story is about, at least before the ending retcon. I know it's depressing. People would actually rather believe Eren was a psychopath who, despite taking years to even consider it, WANTED to kill innocent people for no reason than just accept the fact that the bad guys won this story. In the real world, all of these characters would have been executed for treason.

>>283134293 (OP)
>End of the Manga literally has Eldians getting genocided out of existence by all the people they stopped Eren from killing
The moral of the story seems to be "if you're going to do a genocide make sure to finish the job"

>>283147541
You call expanionist ethnic nationalists leftists? Well, I guess the Yeagerists did offer to assimilate any submissive non-Eldians present on Paradis while their homelands and families were obliterated, so that's something I guess
Not to mention the oppressed side is only oppressed because its leadership deliberately sabotaged all of them and dissolved their empire
If not for Fritz being consumed by a sense of guilt, they'd still be the ones in charge. It was also his idea that Paradis would eventually be invaded and its ignorant people exterminated by the other races if they so choosed (and his successors believed it was inevitable). Hell, the only reason Marley even knew it was "safe" to try to take Paradis for resources was because the Tyburs conveyed Fritz's true will, and that the rumbling was just a false threat to give the Paradisians a few generations of peaceful living before the end comes.

>>283148087
>Jean: So WE were the bad guys for fighting back against you trying to kill us?!
>Magath: Yes.
What a wholesome bothsides story about two groups of people putting aside their differences to save an "innocent human populous" that is offscreen and purely metaphoric at the expense of the humanity we'd followed for years, including sparing these self-admitted genocidal racists who refuse to even feel regret, apologize or back down for it even before their concentration camp victims started fighting back against their constant rain of terror!

>>283148120
Oppressors can become victims just as victims can become oppressors. Like obviously the bs history about the Marleyans isn’t true because there’d be no Marleyans at all, and it’s clear the elites of Eldia did more aweful shit to enslave and manipulate their own Eldian populace. Nevermind Fritz was a coddled rich kid whose response was to make his own personal playground where he can relax and make all the Eldians pay the price later. It’s why not a single Eldian royal of major influence has learned anything over the past 2000 years since Ymir and her daughters were exploited. And the ones who were going to change things got enslaved by Fritz upon gaining his will.

>>283147793
>>283148042
I know it is frustating anon, but Eren doing everything cause he is a psycho is Isayama's most coherent trait about Eren at the end of the day.
It is what it is, or for what other reason could the character at the moment of pic related be able to do the ultimate genocide?

>>283148120
>expanionist ethnic nationalists leftists
I never said Marley was leftist

I actually feel like contrarians get some sort of high from liking the idea of trusting these evil characters we've been introduced to who suffer from extreme self-hatred and racism because of the country they were born into and yet still fight for that country because they hate themselves and hate a group of innocent people because they "fear" that leaving them alone would make them become even half as bad as the current terrorists they are. Of course though the irony is that the events of the story only happened because Reiner broke the wall. If Reiner, Annie and Bertholdt's sour asses hadn't been sent to Paradis they'd have been sent to bomb other countries for oil like Porco, Gabi and Falco were.

>>283148332
Lmao WTF what was Isayama even thinking there?

>>283145196
I like how whenever the topic of attack on titan's ending comes to light, there's always multiple niggers that do this "you didn't understand the point, it's actually this: [...]" as if the ending of the manga isn't barely coherent with the rest of it. Isayama wanted to something at the beginning and decided to do something else entirely at the end, it's why the ending is shit and why so many aspects of it make no sense and so many plot points seemingly get dropped in favor of giving spotlight to Mikasa and Armin.

>>283139329
> Eren wasn't preoccupied with saving Eldia he didn't give a fuck about them being "wiped out". He wanted a clean slate world where EVERYONE that wasn't him Armin, Mikasa, and a couple others were gone

This is a massive character assasination Isayama pulled on Eren to have the ending works.
In reality and until chapter 131 eren showed that he really cared for everyone.
Both the island and the rest of humanity.

He was the same teen smiling at the children watching the SC in amazement, he was the same guy who wished to be killed at the thought of what his father did and how it could’ve saved what at time they used to believe was the human race, and the same guy looking worried at the kids going to experience something he experienced back in Shigashina when they all knew Rod Titan was going to attack. Or when he petted the deformed titan calling him a “fellow eldian” with a saddened face

Heck, even in Marley, while tried to look distant, even him admitted to Reiner that he understood the people outside of the walls were just innocent people like him and his kind…in a sense even forgiving them and the warriors while knowing he was pretty much forced into genociding them all to survive..THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF MARLEY ARC UNTIL ISAYAMA RETCONNED IT!
and even in 130, the guy is having a complete breakdown at the idea of massacre tons of innocent to both ensure the survival of his people, breaking the curse and saving historia and her descendants.

So the whole
>hur eren is an asshole and only cared about his friends and no one else
Is a complete made up bullshit to justify his character derailment…and still amaze me how so many normalfags on Youtube felt for it!

>>283148648
>still amaze me how so many normalfags on Youtube felt for it!
The moment Paradis started turning violent against the oppressors, the audience can be easily swayed. People aren't socially programmed to accept violent retaliation from victims.

>>283148648
Yeah this is the problem. Isayama wanted his cake that Eren was a schizo psycho who both would always do this but doesn’t actually want to kill anyone, which is completely bullshit cop out. Either he never does the scene where he apologizes to the victims of Marley whose actions will lead him to kill them as bystanders, or he was a psycho who RELISHED and craved killing them every second of every day and didn’t give a shit. Isayama wanted both, which ends up with a schizo who is incoherent.

Much like Ymir being in love with the King even though everything up to the point said she was broken down and traumatized that she saw no way out, and even seeing her daughters forced to eat her corpse further breaking her.

>>283134293 (OP)
Egao no Daika
>you invaded my country
>genocided my people
>killed my entire family
>tortured my friends to death
>and destroyed all technology, effectively ending human civilization for generations to come
>but really it's my fault for fighting back, I'm sorry, I hope we can be friends!

>>283138234
>Eren (the jews) would have stomped you into paste too lmfao.
I've seen white christians go "we wuz the real jews" but seeing a jew go "we wuz jotuns" is a new one.

This is my whole issue, Eren being presented as an irrational, unstable villain could have worked because it was told from the eyes of unreliable narrators like Marley apologists and the Survey Corps, who were actually idealistic, naive traitors. But the ending puts a damper on that because Eren's motivations are totally bulldozed and so is the internal logic of his character. I have no problem with the narrative's purposeful schizophrenia of portraying people like Magath as sympathetic as long as Eren remained steadfast in his conviction to save Paradis.

>>283148087
This is literally the only redeeming part of this pile of shit, I hope they added this in the anime

>>283134293 (OP)
>>283134507
I dropped AOT years ago, when they were still in the walls fighting creepy mysterious titans. But all your posts sound super interesting, though I have no idea what they're about. Can someone give me a quick rundown of wtf is the conflict there?

>>283149234
>I've seen white christians go "we wuz the real jews"
Considering how much Jews lie and appropriate other things, are you really surprised some people went there?

>>283148735
Neither do i, i do really think the global genocide thing is as horrible as it get (and to be fair…i was the anon calling for the “zero requiem 2.0” since chapter 100…tho I expected it happening with a good development or compromise instead of the shit that was pulled in the end).
The point is that Eren was left pretty much without other choice. The two “solutions” required to sacrifice people dear to him, with one still ensuring the curse of titans and the possibility of getting slaughtered in the future anyway…and the other was just a self euthanasia.

If anything isayama should’ve focussed on how hopeless and despairful eren was, to the point he forced himself to pull a genocide even if he knew it was wrong and horrible on a moral scale.
Heck ,if i was in yams pants, i’d made that the AT can only see the future OF THE NEXT SUCCESSOR of the user, and only shards of said future…and having Eren being the only one not seeying anything.
This way that would’ve made an interesting scenario where he knew euther:
>he succeded and put the end of the curse of the titans and somehow saved everyone
>or they all got exterminated

Imagine how interesting him going full genocide with this would’ve been?!

Instead nope!
“He was actually le evil psycho and only cared about flew selected people all along….please ignore the many times it was proved the opposite and pretend the time fuckeries i pulled out from my ass are the justification of that since HE WAS LE MANIPULATING EVERYONE FROM LE FUTUREREEEEEE”

>>283138085
God I hate that manga so much. So much lost potential for an interesting story about a guy who doesn't want to fight navigating a world that wants nothing but fighting. But instead you get the most fucking ineffective protagonist of all time who fails over and over and over again while whining and moaning and trying to be the central pillar who takes on all hardship but can't even do that well and then the failure ending is capped off by the author self inserting into a literal child and saying nuh uh Thorfin wasn't wrong!

>>283146870
Because that specific post was in response to a comment about Eren being deadset on wanting to commit genocide only after the speech. There's nothing in the story that points to Eren only wanting genocide from that point forward. If that anon wants to ommit the entire part of the Manga where we finally get to hear Eren's thoughts and motivations he can make whatever head canon he likes, but as far as discussing the actual narrative the fact is that Eren was not looking at things from that perspective.

People want to cope Isayama changed and retconned the ending but he's on numerous occasions stated that he stuck to his original idea. I've pointed out an example of what Isayama was trying to do with Armin as the narrator and us as the viewer misunderstanding Eren. Even as far back as when Eren and co reach the ocean Isayama was laying the seeds of Armin and Eren having a different perspective on their dreams. Armin is happy, the ocean is as big and beautiful as he thought it was, Eren is somber because the WORLD isn't what he wanted it to be. I wont defend or disparage the choice to explore the narrative in this way but it's just a fact that's what Isayama was doing.

>>283149490
>there is actually a whole world outside the walls
>the MCs (Eren, etc.) are part of a race called the Eldians
>there is another country called Marley, who are the reason they are trapped on the walled island
>Marley has been sending Titans to Paradis (the walled island)
>Paradis starts fighting back, obviously
>Eren decides to enact a genocide plan
>but due to Isayama's hackery his motivations and the message of the story are made unclear
>so no one can agree on how to interpret this pile of trash
I probably got something wrong, but this should be the gist of it.

>>283147793
>>283148042
Idk why you're coping and seething so hard lmfao. You read a story that you both didn't understand narratively as well as conceptually and that's ok lol.

It's just some shitty manga from the 2010's it'll be alright anon.

>>283141330
>>283149795
Neither of those anons, but Eren doing the rumbling cause it was in his nature feels very much like a copt out.
t.esl

>>283149963
At least you can say it "feels" like a cop-out which is fine. A criticism I'd levy against Isayama was he didn't do a good job preparing the viewer for what he was attempting to do conceptually with the manga.

Its fine if you want the secondary characters and even the viewer to misunderstand the true core motivations of the character, but at some point you should probably signal to them you're attempting to do something more abstract.

>>283149795
>Eren is somber because the WORLD isn't what he wanted it to be
Which is a perfectly fine reaction since they found out the world is filled with Nazis feeding kids to dogs, turning people into Titans and everyone hates you.
I have said it multiple times over the years, but the average person would react like Eren and not like Armin.

>>283148749
Personally, I don't think Eren relished the idea of killing all the people he did. I said it earlier, but he isn't pleased that he has to kill Ramzi (a stand in for completely innocent people), it's just he has a powerful compulsion to move towards his dream and that dream requires basically everyone dead.

The Ymir shit is dumb as well yeah, again i get what Isayama was going for but poorly executed.

>>283149795
To me before the ending it felt like eren was sad, because to him the ocean represented freedom.
That once he reached the sea it would mean there was no longer anything there to keep him within the walls.
He finally reached the sea, but it was only just another wall that kept him seperated from the forces that kept him within the walls, but what the fuck do I know.

>>283149795
Are you saying that the correct reaction to finding out you're not alone in the world but there is also Walmart Nazi Germany trying to genocide you should be... being happy? Eren's reaction is not one of a psycho there. It's perfectly normal. You are just trying to tie the ending with the previous stuff trying to make it make sense.

>>283149915
NTA but these are the same discussions people were having for Game of Thrones when Dany went crazy.
The vast majority of people out there is not under the impression that Eren did everything because he's a schizoid. People don't know how to write actual psychos, that's why they always end up being completely justifable in way or another.

>>283150069
Not that anon, but please read my post>>283148648

Isayama failed spectacularly into showing that, because many many times showed that eren cared about other people beside his friends.

If it wasn’t the case, he would not cry at Ramzy for what he was going to do, neither beg historia to eat him during Uprising, or look sad at the people in paradis like the many time he did (his aunt’s death, smoling at the kids watching the survey corps in amazement at the start of FeMT arc’s expedition, when he wondered if the kids woul’ve felt the same horror him and his friends witnessed at the fall of shigashina when giant Rod was attacking,when he blatantly forgiven Reiner,the warriors and claimed that the people outside the walls were innocent as the ones inside while claming him and reiner where the same all along).
Eren was unihinged and sometimes very hardcore, but never the mad psychopath that never cared about anyone else but Mikasa and friends or that just wanted to rumble the world all along.
For this reason the final reveal is a coup out , or baseless betrayal. It flanderizes Eren in something he never was with a cheap “actually he manipulated the past all along” pulled out from isayama’s ass, when all these “hints” could’ve been explained in different and more believable ways (in a similar way, the whole reveal with “it was mikasa all along” since her and ymir has barely anything to correlate until the last chapters, and her “headaches” being used as foreshadowing feels very cheap and last minute).
So it doesn’t works and doesn’t make sense for how eren was written before that. The true eren shoulve been the hobo in marley arc and the boy crying at ramzy, not the guy used in the last 7 chapters

>>283150344
You know when a series ends and people start pretending everything before was a foreshadowing? That's what people are doing right now lol.
Mind you I don't think Isayama retconned everything, he just knew that "Eren is doing everything because he's mentally ill" wouldn't go well so he threw few lines here and there including his friends thanking him for the rumbling to muddle the water enough for every interpretation to be valid.

>>283149795
https://youtube.com/watch?v=RW3s6YqftS4&pp=ygUEVC1rdA%3D%3D
If nothing else, the soundtrack for this series was fucking elegant.

>>283150253
Honestly the Ymir shit was the main problem with the ending. I think a better ending would be to have Eren successfully rumble the world, then at the end of the story he finally admits that it wasn't the only possible outcome, but he was so hopeless he wasn't willing to gamble on peace. That way Isayama could have a consistent story without endorsing genocide. And honestly, even just the speech the Marleyan officer gives when the titans are marching towards him would be enough to get the themes across. The Lelouch shit and Eren being a psycho were total copouts and ruined the story, and made it completely pointless since Paradis just gets bombed anyway.

>>283150241
>Which is a perfectly fine reaction since they found out the world is filled with Nazis feeding kids to dogs, turning people into Titans and everyone hates you.
Well depending on how much you think the ending is a retcon, this isn't the reason Eren was sad though. I mean it's probably part of the reason Eren was dismayed, but almost nobody else on his side was pro world extermination so we have a clue in there that Eren's feelings were stronger than most.

>>283150344
To me before the ending it felt like eren was sad, because to him the ocean represented freedom.
I'm pretty sure that was the point? Like we the viewer, like Armin, assume that Eren is saddened because there were enemies in the immediate just across the sea. This was a misdirection (poorly executed it seems) because Eren was thinking bigger than just Marley or human enemies.

>>283150352
>Are you saying that the correct reaction to finding out you're not alone in the world but there is also Walmart Nazi Germany trying to genocide you should be... being happy?
No, I'm not saying that Eren should have been happy lmfao.

Ill reiterate as clearly as I can again: (1/2)

>>283150629
The people on his side were pro island extermination then?

>>283150352
>>283150712
(2/2)
Taking the full facts of the narrative into account, Isayama wrote a story about a group of kids who are born into a world that hate them and wants to destroy them. These kids have completely understandable surface level reasonings for why they fight and hold the positions they do. Eren, the protagonist, at face value seems like a relatable young man that desperately wants to find peace and freedom for all the fighting and destruction. We the viewer assume this, his friends in the story assume this, even many of his enemies assume this. At the end of the story, we get an epiphanic insight into his psychology which recontextualizes the information we assumed we had proper context for.

Eren (in light of this epihany) was not mad (as we assumed) because people out there merely want to kill him. (Floch and Jean are the representatives of this perspective). He was mad because he sincerely pictured the world to be a free and open and beautiful place for him to explore, but it was in fact just more of the same. The people out there were the same as in the walls.

Even this line is recontextualized, at first we think he means that he forgives people outside the walls. But think back to how he felt about the people in the walls when he was a child. He hates that they're fine being cooped up sheep, he has a disdain for them and wants to escape into the "free" world. But he finds out there IS no freeworld, not in the sense he imagined. This is his primary motivation (he has other smaller ones, but primarily it's this)

>>283150629
Eren is sad because they went out but they are still not free because beyond the sea there are obstacles to his freedom.

>>283149795
Eren wasn't advocating genocide there, he just asked a question and was incredibly depressed at this point. He's the one who stalled the Rumbling plans to try to come up with an alternative and they all came up with nothing.

>>283149915
At least you admit you're baiting.

>>283150754
>He was mad because he sincerely pictured the world to be a free and open and beautiful place for him to explore, but it was in fact just more of the same. The people out there were the same as in the walls.
This would have been true, and more understandable, if everyone outside wasn't a batshit insane racist genocidal maniac trying to end them. So this is completely the author's fault.

>>283150549
Sorry missed that one
Eren grows as a character through out the story, I beleive he starts the story THINKING he wants X,Y,Z things, but over the course of the story he slowly comes to terms with what he really desires and the unfortunate ramifications of that desire.

>but never the mad psychopath that never cared about anyone else but Mikasa and friends or that just wanted to rumble the world all along.
I commented something about this earlier in the thread but I'm not of the opinion Eren WANTED to rumble the world.
It's a nuanced distinction, but he just wanted a clean and free slate. It's just that the unfortunate consequence of this goal is that means everyone has to die.

It's like if I wanted to cure cancer, and through some contrived plot I found out the only way to do it would be to kill some guy 50,000 years ago. But in doing so everyone who exists today would never exist.

It's not my expressed goal to wipe everyone alive today out of existence, but if I want to cure cancer then everyone has to go. I might cry that mom mom has to go, and my best friends, and that guy I work with, I might desperately be looking for another way to do it. But if that's the only way to do it, and It's what I really want to do, then those people have to go.

>>283150806
Read ( >>283150956 )
>Eren wasn't advocating genocide there, he just asked a question and was incredibly depressed at this point. He's the one who stalled the Rumbling plans to try to come up with an alternative and they all came up with nothing.
I'm not saying Eren was advocating genocide lmfao. Eren doesn't WANT to rumble, he just wants a clean slate and rumbling is the only way to get there.

>>283150754
His primary motivation is very clearly explained: people were an obstacle to his freedom, and he believes every obstacle to his freedom should go away. The problem here is that according to the story, they literally are an obstacle, so what the author intended as psycho thoughts came across as perfectly normal to most people.

>>283150914
I think that's a fair criticism.
Though, people inside the walls were pretty sadistic too...

>>283151006
>he just wants a clean slate
So, genocide?
Idiot

>>283150914
>Painting actual genocide victims (since "genocide" means racial targeting) as violent schizophrenics and ecociders for refusing to lie down and let themselves get genocided
Nice job Isayama

>>283151029
They were sadistic towards each other, everything else wasa consequence of oppression.

>>283138221
>I don't really care about the canon
we know yurifag

>>283151051
The funniest thing is still Gabi
>racist kid saying it with the hard R hates blacks and kills a couple of them but gets redeemed and turns into a hero
This shit would never fly with real races lmao

Honestly, I liked Eren more before the timeskip/basement reveal. Everything after those events makes him a complete mess of a character.
Though those psychotic reactions and thoughts were in pre-timeskip too.

>>283151007
I think this is a fair reading of the narrative yeah.

>>283151037
>So, genocide?
No lol..
If Armin could present Eren a plan where everyone was idfk mind wiped or the worlds was expanded 10x it's size, or every human being was teleported to some other planet Eren prolly would've just done that. Erens goal wasn't to kill everyone, it was just the only path to his idea of "Freedom" available to him.

>>283151084
I'm not sure why that matters? Eren didn't want any sadism lol, he was an exceptionally pure idealist.

>>283134293 (OP)
>mankind vs chud fairy race of man eating subhumans
What kind of twisted animal could feel sympathy for chuds?

>>283151189
>Though those psychotic reactions and thoughts were in pre-timeskip too.
This is correct but any normal person would believe it was a result of growing up in an insane oppressive environment. I don't think Isayama is normal so he believes someone growing up oppressed turns to violence because he was born a schizo.
If the Rumbling is the only way to survive (and it was) Eren was the one schizo enough to push the button.

>>283146092
The entire figure of the titan is an allegory for "the other". Eren is the self insert for the author and he starts the story as a child and as such we get simplified child's perspective of the world. The world can be divided betwen the unified group of good guys, "humanity" and the entirely monstrous group of titans who bring nothng but destruction and who should all be exterminated. You can compare this to real life examples of propaganda and dehumanization when it comes to ethnic hatred. As the story progresses and Eren ages the world becomes gradually more nuanced. We find out that the "us" group is not so unified and not so uniformly good and the "other" group has actual humans just like us capable of thoughts, emotions, compassion working for them. The ultimate reveal is the point of reaching adulthood: the titans, the enemy we spent all this time hating are literally just humans. Of course they are violent and dangerous, but not by their own choice. They were turned into killing machines by an outside force they had no control over. This is a metaphor to a people brainwashed by propaganda. Suddenly the extermination becomes a moral conondrum. They might be dangerous but in the end they are humans and literally just victims aswell. Yet ultimately they decide to exterminate the titans so that the normal humans are able to live free.
Post timeskip in many ways is essentially a mirror image of part 1, but applying the concept to a real conflict between groups of humans.

>Daenerys was always evil you should have known when she freed slaves and burnt evil slave masters.
>Eren was always evil you should have known when he killed sex traffickers to save Mikasa.
Same shit, different author and different target audience. Do not consume media made by people that watched Game of Thrones.

>>283151255
Yeah, makes sense desu, thanks for replying after so many hours fren.
>>283151246
I think he wanted to write about a character with those archetypes we were shown on Eren, but perhaps he knew that people wouldn't find him as sympathetic if he had shown it from the get go rather than slowly revealing it.

>>283151246
You can't really blame people for reading it that way because in the ending Isayama literally wrote into the story last minute that Eren is a psychopath and that we'd only been thinking he cared about the wellbeing of other people because it was convenient or whatever. Even Mikasa uses Eren killing her sex traffickers as justification to herself for murdering him and that he'd always "been violent" (??) despite the fact that she enjoyed gleefully murdering fellow Paradisians just because they followed Eren. To them it's a "valid reading" because these people don't know or care that the ending is being critiqued for exactly what they're using to justify reading the story that way. I don't give a fuck what Isayama intended when writing Eren's pre-Rumbling character, because whether intentionally or unintentionally, he wrote someone who didn't want to aggress against the world until they made it absolutelt clear they wanted him and his people dead, who wanted to protect his people from genocide, who tried at every point to bargain with his traitorous friends who imprisoned him for being the only one to take action, and who successfully protected the person closest to him.

>>283151338
Eren still comes across as sympathetic though. The problem wasn't him but the circumstances and the people he was lashing out at. He made them too extreme to the point that Eren's actions is what allows the other to live a peaceful life.

>>283151371
>literally wrote into the story last minute that Eren is a psychopath
I don't think this is 100% true though otherwise Armin's infamous like wouldn't be there.

>>283151371
>he wrote someone who didn't want to aggress against the world until they made it absolutelt clear they wanted him and his people dead,
How do you reconcile this with him flattening Hiruzu who didn't want to genocide him?

Macross Delta, astounding how a franchise with a history of sympathetic villains fumbled the ball so badly

>>283150956
But again, the whole “eren wants the free state” is wrong.
If the world was not filled with people wanting to exterminate his island and his friends, he would never dare to cause the whole mess to begin with.

This is how isayama got it wrong.
Instead of focussing on eren “doing it because of his dream”, the whole thing should’ve focussed instead on feeling hopeless and despairful, to the point Eren was forced to accept a cruel idea like the genocide as solution since it was the sole way he could
>save his friends
>save paradis
>save the royal family from the curse, since historia was one of his closed friends after Uprising arc


Every single other solution involved sacrificing something from that list.. he had no other choice.
I can understand people wanting him to be more “i don’t care, I’m egotistical and i only care about my childhood dream”…but it was not what eren was until isayama went full retard.
Again, the true Eren should’ve been the Hobo who forgave Reiner ,was depressed during the whole Marley arc , cried for Sasha and was forced to carry on a plan involving a global genocide because he was out of options and it was the sole hopeless way for any semblance of freedom (freedom from that war, freedom for getting eliminated from that world they were born into..just like his mother said)

All the time travel mambo jumbo and “actually the founder has other secret super duper time powers and can also summon the ancient shifters from the past” was full retardness from isayama side and was one of the things that ruined the story .

Just make the founder a very strong weapon that is barely controllable because controlling a whole army of titans without being able to see all of them , and them being clumsy drones , would’ve been better and more poignant

>>283151419
Yeah, fair point.

>>283151490
Because they say multiple times that every nation hates Eldians more than Marley and Hizuru just wanted to trade, never helped them diplomatically because they just wanted the oil, which contributed to the Rumbling being the only solution. Future hostility from Hizuru was never off the cards.

>>283151474
His line of what? Admitting he didn't understand Eren? Eren saying he was inspired by Armin's book was the platonic ideal of freedom he grew up with, a life outside of the walls where the humanity he grew up with weren't constantly terrorized under the threat of death by titans. How does that translate to wanting to kill everyone outside of them? If he wanted to kill them, why was he in clear distress when he asked that question? Why did he go to Marley and make friends there? Why was he the one in their group most concerned with the wellbeing of the outside world, and being updated on the possibility of reconciliation, who postponed the Rumbling despite their orders in order to buy as much time as he could? If Isayama's goal was writing a genocidal psychopath, he failed and a shock reveal ending doesn't make up for that.

>>283134293 (OP)
>One side is clearly the aggressor
Are all 1-5 year old babies killed in the attack the aggressors? Are the people Eren made friends with over the years pretending to be a cripple in marley the aggressor? Are the 18 year old conscripts? That was the point
Reiner was obviously the aggressor, but that's not what the scene was about

>>283151642
Eren never said he was inspired by Armin's book though. And Armin literally says thanks you for becoming a mass murderer for our sake. If Armin is the source of truth, we have an issue here. Contradictory data.

>>283151591
Remember when Kiyomi pinned Floch down? Kekk truly a sign of what was to come

>>283151665
If I am supposed to care about innocents only on the aggressor side, we have an issue. Innocents died in Paradis too, so give me a break retard.

>>283151552
>If the world was not filled with people wanting to exterminate his island and his friends, he would never dare to cause the whole mess to begin with.
Again I don't see how you can paint Eren as this reluctant to crush everyone when the people who allied with him, and came to his peoples aid (against the might of the entire world) were stomped flat for their trouble. My reading of it is Eren just saw them as the people back in Paradis, and the people in Marley, just more walls.

>>283151591
This doesn't feel like a satisfactory answer. He crushed their entire nation flat because they didn't help them diplomatically against a world that didn't want diplomacy? Because they had their own nations economic interests in mind when coming to the table? I understand Marley, I can even understand some of the unnamed nations which are said to be worse....but genociding the literal only nation that came to your aid when the entire rest of the world wanted you exterminated is wild.

>>283151665
Paradis kids don't deserve genocide so the others have to go.

>>283151757
Those chinks wanted the Rumbling (as long as it wasn't them!) so long as they could pocket their money kek. Even Mikasa was grossed out

>>283151757
The answer was that the whole world hated them, including Hizuru. Kiyomi is not a representative for the entire country.

>>283151854
of course they did because they probably never really dealt with Eldians much in their history
While the entire world hates Eldians, most of the "happenings" seem to have been kept around the continents of NotAfrica and NotEurope.
Not to say other parts never dealt with Titans and such, but it never really seemed to be a major issue with them.
so NotAsians see an opportunity because they never really comprehend the consequences

>>283151737
You are an outside observer of the events for a reason
>we have an issue
And what issue would that be?
>>283151795
Yes, obviously

>>283151757
> everyone when the people who allied with him, and came to his peoples aid (against the might of the entire world) were stomped flat for their trouble

The problem lies in how these people were just a very small 1% of the countries and people that wanted paradis genocided.
Heck , it was not even the fullest of Hizuro being on Paradis’s side. But only the branch from kiyomi’side of the country being their allies (to make an example, it is like if paradis sole allies where the state of Texas, and only the state or texas and not the whole USA, and some rogue traitors from the very same country that wanted to genocide them) and the grand majority of Hizuro was neutral at best, ready to join the genocide because “the strongest rules” at worst.
Of course a lot of innocent people were living in the world, far more than the soldiers that were ready to invade Paradis…but at that point, even if Eren managed to follow Armin ‘s plan and just flattened the global army , some powerful countries and the whole marley (yeah, flattening marley was always the plan in both armin’s and zeke’s plan , that country was going to be pancake no matter what) , the rest of the world was unlikely to just kneel and be peaceful in the long run.
Titans were going down and not being able to stand against modern tech, paradis was still going tobe a small island on top of having massacred a lot of people even in the scenario of the partial rumbling.. in the long run peace was a literal gamble where everyone but you has a shotgun and you a nuclear weapon to kill everyone in the room..

The whole world was still going to hate and fear them, now validated by them having the fearsome weapon in full display…
For this reason, while horrible, the global genocide made sense…eren was legt without any choice, ESPECIALLY with the whole thing involving NOT WANTING HISTORIA AND HER DESCENDANTS SACRIFICED!
it was literally the main reason he opposed to the plan in ch 107.

>>283151862
>The answer was that the whole world hated them, including Hizuru
Their Shogun was an ally of the Eldian empire and friend of Fritz. Is there any evidence Hiruzu had genocidal or even negative feelings about Paradis?

>>283152096
>of course they did because they probably never really dealt with Eldians much in their history
The only reason Mikasa exists is because Hiruzu and Paradis initially had an alliance, that's how the asians ended up trapped here.

>>283152154
>Is there any evidence Hiruzu had genocidal or even negative feelings about Paradis?
They never said "the whole world minus Hizuru hates Eldians"
If you want to make this argument you are better off using Ramzi

>>283152153
>The problem lies in how these people were just a very small 1% of the countries and people that wanted paradis genocided.
I'm not sure where this notion is coming from, every bit of background info and context paints Hiruzu as at worst neutral to Paradis.
>Their Shogun was pro Eldia
>One of Their clans sends an ambassador to help them
>They have a diaspora in Paradis that leads back to their Ruler
>Kiyomi seemed warm to Udo when he fucked up her dress, and covered for him instead of lambasting him
I can't think of a specific piece of evidence that shadows Hiruzu as potentially genocidal..

I guess maybe they were at the Tybur party...but they were there as spies...

>>283152154
I said not dealt with much, I didn't say they were completely unaware of them.
It wouldn't shock me though that many places/countries had no idea wtf was going on until more recent history. We know absolutely nothing about the NotAmericans, except that they clearly become the dominant superpower in the end, but they may not have even been aware of Titans until contact was made with the rest of the world
>wow first contact with a new continent
>you have giant monsters that eat people? what?

>>283152295
Why would they single out Hiruzu? The line could obviously be referencing generality. If every country but Japan hated them you'd still say "everyone hates us".
Are you ESL?

>>283152151
>And what issue would that be?
Innocents die in wars all the time, 20% npcs died when Bort broke the wall. When someone brings "what about the kids" up it's not because they care about the kids, it's because they specifically care about kids of a certain group of people, while seeing the others as expandable or collateral damage.
>Pali kids die in bombing
Unfortunate collaterali damage
>Jew kids killed by Hamas?
Aieeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Next time tell Marley not to start shit and Marleyan kids don't get stomped. Easy. Don't moralfag me with kids because I will afford their kids the same empathy they afforded Paradis ones, which is none.

>>283152153
(2/2)
So having eren being hopeless and without alternatives makes the whole thing better than just “he wanted to rumble the whole world for freedom”.
It makes more sense since it was an Eren that was no able to do anything to avoid that.
Chapter 100 showed a whole global alliance where leaders would just join Marley’s plan either for the fame of joining “the chariot of the winners (“il carro dei vincitori “ in italian) , joining force against the evil demons like in a holy war or just to wishing some slices of the resources lying underneath paradis (like the whole cristal cave full of iceburst stone, and any other titan made thing lying deep inside).

So the whole island was left along with more than 70% of the world being on board with extermination, at best 29 % being indifferent until the threat is real, and finally the remaining % of allies or completely innocent countries that are too flew to matter for the safety of the island.

Unrelated but i already said this previously, but i hated how the Ft was turned into this omnipotent (kinda) super power with time-space shaeningans. The powers of the FT should’ve been limited to:
-control the subjects (mind and turning them into titans)
-and so controlling the WT ,but without sight making it very difficult for eren to control them …again exploring how the Rumbling is also very imprecise since eren must only follow a vague scheme to direct the titans properly, and so avoiding innovent casualties is virtually impossible once unleashed)
-not having control on them other 8 shifters, since all of them came from the same founder. Also would make the whole titan war and Fritz the cuck more interesting, since king fritz going full guilt since unable to stand against the infighting of the other shifters (at the time the noble families) would ‘ve been the perfect pretext for the current state of the world

Making it so godlike powerful was retarded

>>283152151
I am an outside observer and I don't take the side of the aggressor. I wish Reiner's entire family had been obliterated.

>>283152475
Eren killed all the Paradis kids though. Eren probably killed more Paradis kids than Marley ever did lmfao.

>>283152555
Now that's a cope if I have ever seen one. Sorry bro, Marley has to go including their Hitler Youth.

>>283152481
I thought the Attack was the one with time fuckery, and maybe enhanced when combined with Founding.
>-not having control on them other 8 shifters,
well I mean it kinda didn't
from my understanding the Founding Titan/Fritzs became cucks over a long period of time because they literally couldn't stop the other 8 from fucking around, and it just wore on them until they basically gave up and ran away, and let Tybur win
we see evidence of that when Grisha surprised them. It would have been in Freida's, and the "Vows", best interest to mind wipe and basically eliminate Grisha immediately when he stepped foot in there, but she couldn't. the best she could do is have a fist fight, and she lost.

>>283152317
Okay. Lets pretend Eren decide to spare Hizuru and flew other countries from the full scale Rumbling.
Now what happens?
>paradis is still a small island compared to hizuru and the surviving countries
>Hizuru and the survivors are horrified by the full scale rumbling
>thinking that paradis will use it against them if they don’t turn into their slaves…they play their good role for about the next centuries, enough to develop weapons able to fight back (maybe even by using the very same materials and oils from Paradis)
>time skip in 100 years, paradis nuked before any preventing strike with the founding (that would still need a royal titan and an AT to touch to avoid the royal cucking mindcontrolling the royal blood user…basically a two imput nuke that need to be harmed by two people touching first)…just killing the AT user or the royal titan user is enough to buy time and genocide the island before they fight back
>HISTORIA AND HER CHILDREN STILL GET SACRIFICED

>>283152475
The next episodes are about Gabi finding out paradis kids are innocent and war is hurting the innocents on paradis, I knew you had selectively forgotten about it, and you demonstrated why: real world politics has rotted your brain beyond the ability to recognize the very simple notion that killing innocents is indeed bad.
>20% npcs died when Bort broke the wall
You may have missed it, but he's literally suicidal.

>Don't moralfag me with kids because I will afford their kids the same empathy they afforded Paradis ones
See, I don't think you could afford empathy in general, you seem the kind of guy who is only looking for a perfect excuse to take pleasure in pain, again, proven by you selectively forgetting what the show actually shows you.
So when you get "moralfagged" you get mad, you wanted to enjoy your revenge porn, and instead you were shown actions have consequences, and we can't have that in your revenge porn show!

It's also hilarious you would bring palestine into this, the jews are literally using your reasoning: hamas killed our kids 2 years ago so now we can completely morally justify complete genocide.

>>283152610
Well according to Eren everyone had to go, even the little Paradis'n kiddies lmfao. My girl Gabby lived though. So precious and beautiful.

>>283152541
>and I don't take the side of the aggressor
Nobody is forcing you to, or even asking you to.
What are you angry at? That the show dared to show you his family? You would have preferred to not see whose death you were cheering for? What is even your complaint?

>>283152643
> well I mean it kinda didn't

Eren explained during the awful plane travel that he could just mindwipe them, or block their powers, but refused to do so since “i don’t want to steal away your freedom to stop me”…so yeah, apparently the FT could control the 8 other shifters all along.
Even this is proven as so since eren could summon and control the shifters from all the previous ages…apparently except the one that manifested as force ghosts out of nowhere….

It is a really really badly written arc

>>283152664
>Gabi
Gabi killed Paradis people because she was an unhinged racist, and the author asked me to side with her, now you are using her as a moral bastion. Damn what a trainwreck.
>Real politics has rotten your brain
Stop projecting your shit on me retard, you don't give a shit about innocents either, you just side with Marley so you have to project much both sides.
>Revenge porn
Killing the Nazis that want to genocide your island is revenge porn? Alright. I enjoy racists getting stomped. What now?

>>283152694
No, I was happy during the rumbling. I was waiting for islanders for payback since season 1.

>>283152654
>thinking that paradis will use it against them if they don’t turn into their slaves…they play their good role for about the next centuries, enough to develop weapons able to fight back (maybe even by using the very same materials and oils from Paradis)

Why wouldn't Paradis technologically advance over those 100 years? In your own hypothetical Paradis has all the cards, they have a 500 thousand strong army of nuclear missiles, just tell Hange to get her ass to work on industrializing by forcing Hiruzu to give them their tech.

In reality they don't even have to play that game, Mikasa is literally their princess so they have a political angle they can build bridges from. I find it hard to believe nobody in Hiruzu would side with Paradis give how asymmetrical the power imbalance is

>>Hizuru and the survivors are horrified by the full scale rumbling
Also, Kiyomi the ambassador of Hiruzu was hoping they would rumble. Our only insight into the country indicates they were fine with the other allied forces getting crushed so long as it wasn't them.

>>283152664
>aggressor solider is suicidal because forced to kill kids :(
Many such cases... Iraq or Afghanistan, Mr. Hoover?

>>283152803
>and the author asked me to side with her
The author went to great lengths to prove her wrong
It's what a character arc is.
>Stop projecting your shit on me retard
You literally brought real world politics into this discussion
Are you even capable of remembering something you posted not even 15 mins ago? Jesus christ I'm talking with an actual drooling retard
>Killing the Nazis that want to genocide your island is revenge porn?
And they do get killed! But you getting unreasonably mad that you ever get a scene from the other side indicates that it was not enough, that simply showing the other side enraged you.

>>283152898
So why the claim the show makes him the good guy? If he didn't do anything bad, why would he be suicidal? You people are so fucking mad at me you aren't even getting my point
>>283152839
Ok, then the scene is fine and you have no complaint
Good.
>>283152803
Also
>you just side with Marley
But I literally pointed out the show reinforced they are wrong
How is that siding with marley? Can you even read?

>>283152654
Also, flip the script around lmfao. Hiruzu came to Paradis' aid, gave them technology for just ACCESS to their oil, and once they weren't useful anymore got obliterated by Paradis.
Like what the fuck lmfao. Actually what more could they had even done?

>>283152903
>Kid that calls Black people the hard R and kills a couple of them gets redeemed and becomes a hero because a Kanye fan wants to kill all Whites
This is a story I want to write now kek

>>283152960
The actual ending sucks ass, don't get me wrong, the whole avengers bullshit, I'm talking about the episode in the op specifically and what came right afterwards

>>283152955
Do you just say "lmfao" to seem smug about your retardation and concern trolling?

>>283152944
Moron, nobody wants to hear the sob story of James Smith forced to kill a 6 years old kid in Baghdad when James should have never been there to begin with. Just because the author is a hack, doesn't mean I have to accept his shit.

>>283152849
> Also, Kiyomi the ambassador of Hiruzu was hoping they would rumble. Our only insight into the country indicates they were fine with the other allied forces getting crushed so long as it wasn't them.
Trust me, everyone is good with words until the truth hit them all. Just look at Hoppeheimer (probably wrote it wrong) the moment he realized the bombs killed a lot of innocent people…multiply it for a whole world beside flew selected countries

>but paradis can develop too

True, but the main advantage paradis also had to use the rumbling in the first place was that the conditions to activate it where now right where the country needed (a FT user and a Royal titan ).
All hizuro or any other country would need is just to use their new advanced weapon to eliminate specifically even one of these two targets to win. If just one of the two is dead , paradis main weapon is gone and so it would be free game for everyone.
Yes , it won’t be an easy deal since shifters are very durable…but in that case a non stop nuclear bombardment might works if captor or assassins are too risky…and then all regressed to monkey just like the epilogue in worst case scenario.


Also ,i know i might be quite petulant int reminding it. But i have to do since it is one of the main reasons eren was against the limited rumbling plan
>HISTORIA AND HER CHILDREN GET SACRIFICED BOTH IN ARMIN’S AND ZEKE’S PLAN

>>283153043
Does it bother you lmfao?

>>283152790
iduno I feel like he was bluffing, because a LOT of the worlds problems could have been solved with a simple Mind Wipe. Even cucked by the "Vow", a mind wipe would have stopped Grisha and allowed Marley to wipe out Paradis as intended.
or this is just another plot hole IE: ARMOR BRAUN, WTF
>shifters from all the previous ages
I don't recall them being really "them" though, just husks.

I agree though, not well written when it comes to that. Isayama might have fucked himself in a hole and didn't know what to do, who knows.

>>283152903
>that simply showing the other side enraged you.
Showing the other side is fine, going on and apologist tirade after everything that happened was an insult. Magath literally tells Jean it was their fault for fighting back. The author is a hack and so are you for going along with this bullshit.

>>283153049
>nobody wants to hear
You are speaking for everyone now?
Because last I checked, AoT was pretty popular when this was airing
>the author is a hack
So far, you have failed to explain why

I can go into detail about how much the ending sucked, you however can only spew some nonsense about palestine. You don't get to call anyone a moron when you are sub 80 IQ dimwit drooling as he types.

>>283152903
>The author went to great lengths to prove her wrong
Gabi should have never been a protagonist to begin with. That's the problem.

>>283153113
>going on and apologist tirade
Again, I distinctly remember Gabi discovering Marley is evil AFTER this scene
Seems like we watche different shows
>Magath literally tells
Ah yeah, if one character says something, that something is canonically true right?


What the fuck am I even reading? Did you retards watch this shit or only edits on tik tok?

>>283153066
Yes? I don't understand baiters. Do you think you "won" somehow because it's annoying to read your retarded spam? It's no one else's fault you have nothing better to do.

>>283153056
I don't think that's a bad response, but it just doesn't rise to the level of exterminate them to me. Like, they come to your aid and seem at least somewhat sympathetic to your cause given how much they stand to lose by joining you against Marley and the thought process is:
Well, when we kill all our enemies, our ally might night be happy with us so we have to genocide them as well.

It wasn't even like he just crippled them, they were treated no differently than Marley, idk seems inhumanely scummy.

>>283153159
>Gabi should have never been a protagonist to begin with.
Again, why not?
Because you wanted to murder her? Because it ruins your revenge porn?
You still cannot give actual criticism, just vague shit about how things should be.

>>283153196
Lmfao, you actually care about "winning", you're adorable.

Eren should have stomped Marley flat first before doing literally anything else. Yet another plot hole in this shitty story

>>283153207
Because redeeming a Nazi racist and making them a protagonist while at the same time painting their victims in the wrong... is bad.

>>283153226
Kill yourself.

>>283153181
Was Magath ever proven wrong? Did anyone told him he was a fucking asshole for that thing? If not, you assume the author agrees.

>>283153304
You actually took time out of your day to grab this image, and to someone you think is baiting no less. lmfao.

>>283153267
not ENTIRELY a plot whole since Eren's entire character/story was "EVERYONE THAT ISNT ME OR MY CLOSE CIRCLE OF FRIENDS IS AN ENEMY AND SHOULD DIE"

>>283153295
>Because redeeming a Nazi racist
Are you baiting?
She's a 10 year old
It looks like I'm reading an X post by some commie retard
I'm probably getting baited at this point

>>283153331
I have this image ready for people who spam and bait up and down threads with stupid typing quirks like you because they don't get enough attention at home and need to try to piss people off on the internet.

>>283153056
Yeah this is the problem with the ending. Eren not being in love with Historia means the only reason he had to go for complete genocide was "muh book", which I just don't find very compelling. I think Eren should've just been someone who was completely unwilling to compromise, or be forced into anything which would bind him or his people. Needing to compromise and form alliances with the outside world, who would still likely hate and fear Paradis, or having Historia's children die young, would be a bridge to far for him. I think that would've been more compelling than him just killing everyone because he wants an empty world (well, he still would basically want an empty world in this scenario, but his reasoning would be deeper than just wanting a blank slate).

But really, the biggest problem with the ending isn't Eren's motivation, it's the extremely contrived plotline with Ymir and Mikasa, as well as the plotholes opened up by the founder being near-omnipotent. Eren destroying the world because he despises the idea of an already-built world would be disappointing but still somewhat interesting, but the Ymir stuff is completely unsalvageable.

>>283153339
>>283153340
Why are Indians like this?

>>283153132
>So far, you have failed to explain why
Because both sideing a story where one side wants to genocide the other multiple times is hack behavior. Isayama wanted to recreate the same themes of Naruto vs Akatsuki without understanding what actually worked here: Naruto sucked it up and forgave Nagato because he understood Nagato was a victim of his shitty village's aggression. Isayama put all the burden on the victims of the story instead.

>>283153366
You have an image macro queued up to post on 4chan because people online make you angry. I cant even lmfao at that one.

>>283153427
Do you not know what a folder is? I thought xitterfag ESL Indians were supposed to be good at tech stuff.

>>283153420
>Because both sideing a story where one side wants to genocide the other multiple times is hack behavior.
How so? Why can't you show why one side is so hellbent on genocide? What's wrong with that?
It's not like at any time Marley's government is presented as good.

>>283134293 (OP)
What was the point of adding the "burst stone" plot device to attack on titan? I know the writer was trying to give more justification to the outside world attacking paradis, but that greed only seems to undermine the themes of the "both sides are sympathetic"

>>283153420
Eren did not need to kill literally everyone. He could've just destroyed their militaries. At the very least, he could've saved the Eldians outside the walls. Eren is sympathetic (or he would be if it weren't for the final 8 chapters) but he's still a villain.

>>283153465
The Marley government turned out good because one of their victims chimped out too much

>>283153484
Because it gives a reason to invade Paradis even if the titan curse was ended.
Also it explains how the grapple hook and rocket technology works.

>>283153457
>Do you not know what a folder is?
You have an entire FOLDER you saved? Close your eyes and breathe, it's just manga anon.

>I thought xitterfag ESL Indians were supposed to be good at tech stuff.
Ok. now that was funny. Just not in the way you intended lmao.

>>283153487
Reasonable take.

>>283153487
>Eldians outside the walls
Retard, Eldians outside the walls hated Paradis and wanted them dead
>Eren did not need to kill everyone
He didn't, only 80%

>yes you have seen people eaten alive for three seasons HOWEVER those who did it are sad now
kekaroo

>>283153518
Yeah I know Indians who use xitter like you actually aren't smart, it's just that you sound surprised by basic shit ("you have an entire FOLDER of PICTURES off the INTERNET you saved?!") so you seem clueless, but maybe you're just retarded and bad at speaking English besides repeating lmfao and lol like a drooling pajeet imbecile.

>>283153571
>Yeah I know Indians who use xitter like you actually aren't smart
>I thought xitterfag ESL Indians were supposed to be good at tech stuff.
Embarrassing but amusing lmfao.

>>283153484
>>283153509
to be fair it was hinted at pretty early on when Zeke was intrigued by the ODM gear and took it back for analysis.
Marley saw that even the backward ass lost in time Paradis could advance something significant if they had an opportunity. Marley was the one falling behind of just about everyone at this point.

>>283153528
>only 80%
I'm pretending the last chapters didn't happen because they were retarded. But even in the cannon ending, Eren WANTED to kill everyone, he just couldn't because he had to let himself get killed by Mikasa.
Also, there's no reason not to just go with Armin's plan besides either wanting to save Historia or Eren having a comically pessimistic view about the prospect of peace. We know the second isn't true in the canon ending because he trusts Armin to make peace with the remaining 20%, and while he did want to save Historia the actual ending does not place much emphasis on this, as he would have gone with the rumbling plan even if Historia and her kids weren't going to inherit the curse, because he wanted to flatten the world to look like his book. Again I find this very stupid and a betrayal of the complex character that was et up in the preceding chapters.

>>283153507
>The Marley government turned out good
It didn't
At no point does the series even remotely imply this
Even in the godawful ending, the Marely captain at the last stand against the rumbling tells his soldiers their actions are what caused all of this, in his last speech

The Marley government is what caused the chimp out in the first place, the central point of the series is that violence only begets more violence. Was it executed well? No, the last part is godawful. But the OP scene was good and so was the general idea.

>>283153650
Marley's Intelligence Unit caused this failure.
They let the missing Attack Titan literally infiltrate a position of significance, and it fucked them.
maybe they didn't have their own Intelligence Network at the time, or much of one, because of how boastful they probably felt during those times.
>spies? spying on us? pfft, whatever.

>>283153484
I mean, as much as last minutes it looks like, it had a decent foreshadowing.
First a little element of world building to explain how the odmg actually works.
Than zeke being so surprised of it during the first contact.
And then giving an explanation about what the cristal cave really was instead of just some weird rock thing never explained.

If anything, i think isayama should’ve explored more what Paradis really is.
It is kind vaguely implied, but from my understanding Paradis is pretty much a testing island that previous founders used as testing ground to explore the powers of the titans (more specifically the Ft) and terraformed the whole island using said powers. Like the gigantic trees being the result of the bones of titans fertilizing the soil, same for the alloy bamboo canonically used for the blades, with the iceburst being the result of multiple testing involving the hardening ability (canonically the ice burst and the hardening shares the same visuals and propeties).

I wouldn’t be surprised if , at least in the original idea of the rumbling isayama had, the Wall titans would’ve terraformed the earth at each step, bringing both destruction and creation at their passage , and so also justifying the world not going full environmental fallout after the rumbling…i think this idea is kinda foreshadowed by the AT creating flowers on the ground under Eren’s titan when he tanked the cannon ball…tho it was an aspect isayama clearly ditched in the end

Sex with mikasa!

Pii!

>>283153938
>I wouldn’t be surprised if , at least in the original idea of the rumbling isayama had, the Wall titans would’ve terraformed the earth at each step, bringing both destruction and creation at their passage , and so also justifying the world not going full environmental fallout after the rumbling…i think this idea is kinda foreshadowed by the AT creating flowers on the ground under Eren’s titan when he tanked the cannon ball…tho it was an aspect isayama clearly ditched in the end
lol yeah, there are a bunch of little things like that throughout the story. I can also see where a rebirth cycle theme might've come into play.

>>283134293 (OP)
What do you mean, both sides? The story constantly justified Eren's actions. He just feels empathy.

>>283137171
What the fuck

>>283134806
The Paradisians really became Helos here and drove Marley back successfully as HUMANS... I love this part of the story.

>>283148087
Someone a long time ago said that aot is the got of anime. Guess he was right in that they both crashed and burned in the end.

>>283135098
Hm, I always wondered why he suddenly hated Eren at the final stretch. It makes more sense if he was always trying to make him look bad.

>>283154277
Literally where

>>283134709
i entered the thread for the sole reason to type this

>>283154675
There were multiple times where Eren hoped for there to be a better way than to genocide the entire world, only for the narrative to bend itself and reinforce the fact that everybody on the planet wants his people gone.

>>283135947
>The Holocaust wasn't even 100 years ago and people have managed to forgive Germany.
filthy jew hands typed this

>>283154983
This is true but the story keeps saying until the end that genocide is not the solution

>>283155418
80% is okay though

>>283151007
Can I say the same thing if my neighbor stops my freedom to walk into his house and piss on his rug?

>>283154983
I feel like they should have emphasized more that while the threat of a rumbling could have kept a forced peace for quite a while, with the possibility of reconcilation happening eventually, it would require walking a tight rope for a very long time. On the other hand Eren just going full rumbling guarantees that the problem will be solved here and now.

>>283153620
Cease shitting up the board please.

>>283154983
Yeah exactly, so how do people blame the only character in the story with a shred of empathy? Eren objectively cared the most about the Marleyans out of his group, meanwhile Mikasa was focused on fucking ice cream and romantic fantasies of running away with Eren. Then Eren cares much more about his own country, the people he's known his entire life, who raised him like he said in his Paths monologue, more than any of the other SC members do >>283147793 . The SC are portrayed as incompetents through flashbacks and submissive bitches post-timeskip while Magath sits there and calls them devils who deserved to die for "fighting back". The only thing they succeeded in was dooming their own country, killing the same friend that once wanted to protect their lives (before they jailed him for doing so), and being hypocrites because they selfishly thanked Eren for killing 80% anyway.

>>283134293 (OP)
I don't think this scene was actually both sidesing it yet. Eren thinks he and Reiner are/were the same because they were both doing what was necessary to protect their countries and to "save the world." Then Reiner drops to his knees and rejects what he's saying. He says Eren's mother died not because Marley actually "needed" the Founding Titan, but because their pure greed and bloodlust as a country prevented them from leaving Paradis alone and that he was driven by twisted ideological forces, not survival, to infiltrate wall Maria. That's why he also begs Eren to kill him. Eren winces in pain at this revelation, but it ultimately supports his decision to go through with the attack once Willy finally declares war on Paradis. The later scene between Gabi/Falco and Kaya parallels this one.