A man is someone who identifies as a man.
A woman is someone who identifies as a woman.

boring vulgar shit "debate" incoming

Trans people need to be patient. They end up rushing into things and rushing to the grave.

If transvestite people were more patient they'd get the results and lifestyle they want instead of insisting we accept them immediately for how they look or what pronouns we need to use with them.

If you are trans, be patient. You'll be happier in the long run.

>>22866440
Why do you care

>>22866427 (OP)
Ok try get pregnant bro

>>22866553
I still need to get the bottom surgery and the uterus transplant thoughever.

>>22866556
Good luck with that and dont forget the overies

>>22866427 (OP)
Sure, you can use the words that way. But an adult male human and adult female human are two distinct and important categories of people regardless of what you call a man or a woman. Frankly I think those two categories are more important than self-identity and deserve simple common words like man and woman. But even if you want to give "man" and "woman" over to categories of identify, the biological distinctions between two groups still exists. So this is all just playing with words in the end.

>>22866427 (OP)
transwomen
transmen
cismen
ciswomen
i feel like its quite simple

>>22866597
Yeah I know I'm just fucking around for attention. I actually respect trans people who give a non-self-referential and non-circular definition to gender and sex, something about gender being neurological while sex is biological and that gender dysphoria is just some disconnect between the two. Like the software being incompatible with the hardware. But they're usually shunned as "transmedicalists" and lumped in with transphobes and it seems that subjectivism is the prevailing trend in the transgender community.
I personally don't like the circular definitions because then "man" and "woman" effectively entirely loses their meaning, as opposed to just "adult human male" and "adult human female". Any meaningful definition of gender needs to be based on biological sex.

>>22866605
>I personally don't like the circular definitions because then "man" and "woman" effectively entirely loses their meaning, as opposed to just "adult human male" and "adult human female". Any meaningful definition of gender needs to be based on biological sex.
Yeah I agree there.
>I actually respect trans people who give a non-self-referential and non-circular definition to gender and sex, something about gender being neurological while sex is biological and that gender dysphoria is just some disconnect between the two
It's better than circular definitions, but it still has all kinds of issues. Like what is "neurologically" female vs. male? Seems to me that anything that goes on in the brain of a male is neurologically male. Obviously there are averages and people who go outside the normal ranges, but even looking at brain scans they're never like the opposite sex exactly. There's some structures in the brains of transwomen that tend to look closer to female brains (but not the same) than normal, but that doesn't mean those structures make you male or female. They have other functions.

I think when you get down to it, it's all just about personality. Transwomen are just males that feel more comfortable acting in ways more common to females. Wearing their clothes, associating as if you were female, etc. Of course there's a biological component to personality too, and things like hormone levels in the womb affect it. But nothing about it makes a male a female rather than a feminized male.

I'm just being a stickler about it though, I don't care how transwomen live and dress. People should be treated with respect and kindness. I just won't lie about reality and pretend they're actually real women in any meaningful way.

>>22866629
There's gotta be some neurological component because gender dysphoria is genuine distress from not being the other sex, from some sort of mismatch between the mind and the body. There are plenty of masculine and women and feminine men who are completely content with being just that without wanting to take any hormone treatments or get any surgeries. So a tomboy or a femboy isn't the same as a trans man or a trans woman.

>>22866635
>There's gotta be some neurological component
Of course there is. But there's a neurological component to all human behavior is what I'm saying. Being uncomfortable with your sex and making the decision that you want to change it is neurological like any other urge and decision. But that doesn't mean it's an inherent or permanent feature of your brain.

>>22866638
I also think it's clear at this point that there's a social element at play here. People react to what's expected and encouraged in their environment. You can see groups of teenage girls deciding to transition together and things like that. It doesn't seem to just be explained by "it's more socially accepted so they're more open about it."

>>22866635
>So a tomboy or a femboy isn't the same as a trans man or a trans woman.
But yeah this is true. Obviously there are people who are content being a feminine male or masculine woman without having body issues, and other people who feel an urge to change their bodies.

An elephant is not a bird

>>22866652
That doesn't cut it for me, I didn't get the messsage.

>>22866635
Have you ever considered that it is delusional? Have you heard of body integrity identity disorder? That is a disorder where someone has dysphoria cause by having a certain limb or appendage, and they feel their lives would be improved and their sorrows waned by amputating that limb.

It's a delusional disorder. It's the same thing. Trannies just wish they didn't have a dick.

>>22866654
Well you aren't all that bright then. The logic is pretty simple.

>>22866659
An elephant is not a bird
Thing a is not thing b
A man is not a woman

These are hard-coded biological facts that have been accepted for thousands of years because they are downstream of biology as mentioned. Only recently did the great thinkers of our time wonder
>Could a woman have a penis?!?
It's the most retarded line of logic and questioning there could ever be.

A fucking mouse knows whether it is male or female. It performs those functions. Biological reality doesn't change because you really feel like you're a princess. Because you aren't a princess. You're an old man with the shoulders of a linebacker and the jaw of an Irish sailor.

>>22866662
I think there's a tendency to assume that if any clear categories or distinctions have any sort of "gray" or "fuzzy" areas whatsoever then they must be completely made up and social constructions or whatever.
Usually people will bring up intersex to refute the idea of sex being a binary but intersex is a bunch of chromosomal abnormalities that occur along sex lines, there's no in between hermaphroditic sex that is neither discernably male nor female. And human reproduction has no need of any such "third sex".
You'll also hear the idea that sex is "bimodal" and that there's a spectrum between male and female based on sex characteristics, with most people falling into either the male or female parts of the spectrum. But this categorizes people by sex characteristics and the problems from this are apparent.
For example) is a woman with smaller breasts more "male" than a more feminine woman? Or a hairier body, deeper voice, etc? Is a man with a higher-pitched voice and low-testosterone more "female" than a masculine man? Already this definition of sex based on sex characteristics alone identifying people as "more male/female" or "less male/female" is problematic.

>>22866670
>You'll also hear the idea that sex is "bimodal" and that there's a spectrum between male and female based on sex characteristics, with most people falling into either the male or female parts of the spectrum. But this categorizes people by sex characteristics and the problems from this are apparent.
>For example) is a woman with smaller breasts more "male" than a more feminine woman? Or a hairier body, deeper voice, etc? Is a man with a higher-pitched voice and low-testosterone more "female" than a masculine man? Already this definition of sex based on sex characteristics alone identifying people as "more male/female" or "less male/female" is problematic.
Yeah that's always been weird to me. Like the same people would probably agree it's insulting to call a post-menopausal woman or woman who had her breasts removed for cancer "less female."

>>22866671
Plus, we already deal with this with animals without any issue.

It's like using a different word in place of another, because the latter word has taken on offensive connotations. Spiritually.

Take the word retarded for example. It's considered offensive today. It was once considered a polite term. Before the term retarded was championed as it's replacement, we called them imbeciles. Before that they called them lunatics. Then that became offensive, and hence and so forth. Every time a new "polite" term for retarded was coined it would eventually take on offensive connotations and be discarded for another, more "polite" term.

The reality therein is that the subject of the word, in this case, being retarded, has inherently negative connotations. It does not matter what word you use, or if you change it because the underlying connotations always remain. And those negative connotations will always erode the new term into that of an insult with time. Because the term becomes associated with those negative connotations. Because it is rooted in them.

Just like it doesn't matter if you call yourself a woman, because the underlying biological realities and their connotations are that of a man. No matter what you declare it to be yourself. The underlying reality remains the same and cannot be changed.

>>22866671
*Insulting and incorrect, I should say

>>22866662
Oh, I thought you meant something deeper than that. In that case I got it.

Thanks for explaining tho, good conversation!

>>22866427 (OP)
based

>A man is someone who identifies as a man.
>A woman is someone who identifies as a woman.

If trans people called themselves "New Halves" like in Japan when they first emerged, I think they would be more accepted.

>>22866427 (OP)
No

>>22866836
In germany they are called Zwitter (twitter in english), human with both sexes. i think it's still in the law from hundreds of years ago even if i'm not mistaken

>>22866427 (OP)
Circular definition.