Yesterday we read an unsanctioned company crossover, play another round of the most dangerous game, and Peter and Ben pledged their familial love to each other and will never be torn apart
Today is the big finale of the Clone Saga!

>previous threads
https://pastebin.com/NH7mqWAr

>>149171348 (OP)
>Peter and Ben pledged their familial love to each other and will never be torn apart
:(

>>149171421
>>149171427
Oh god, a pager is new technology!

Imagine there being two Spider-Men
How many interesting stories could that lead to?

>>149171446
Two Spider-Men? Don't be ridiculous, Marvel would never be that creatively bankrupt!

oh-ho
Seems one way or another the cast is being gathered at the Bugle tonight

>>149171348 (OP)
>Today is the big finale of the Clone Saga!
AKA what I consider to be the official "end" of Spider-Man's story.

>Today is the big finale of the Clone Saga!
Aw man.

>>149171509
Aw come on you can stick it out until Byrne starts at least

>>149171525
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : This of course was the most uncomfortable part-planning the undoing of Mary Jane's pregnancy. But it had been put off for so long, and had been discussed over and over and over again, that it got to the point where we just had to bite the bullet and confront the situation head-on.

>>149171579
> GLENN'S COMMENTS : Mendel Stromm first appeared in 1966, in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN Volume 1, #37, by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. He apparently died of a heart attack at the end of the story, and had not appeared since then. However, a robot version of Stromm showed up in 1982, in PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #68, written by Bill Mantlo, penciled by Luke McDonnell, and inked by Jim Mooney.

>It was Mark Bernardo who suggested that Gaunt should turn out to be Stromm. Amusingly enough, none of the Spider-Man writers even remembered who Stromm was! I can't say I blame them-Mark ran the idea by me first, and even I had to go back to the "Marvel Masterworks" volume that reprinted ASM #37 to read up on the character.

>Once it was explained to the writers who Stromm was, and how he had a strong connection to Norman Osborn, they all agreed that it seemed like a reasonable enough idea. However, there was a great deal of concern about having Gaunt turn out to be an obscure character that hadn't even been mentioned in the books in about 14 years, and hadn't been seen in about 30! None of the writers could come up with a better solution, though, and I think they just sort of gave in and agreed to go along with it, rather than really get behind it and completely embrace the idea. In fact, the manner in which Stromm is dealt in the next chapter would seem to indicate that at least one of the writers wanted to send Stromm back into comic book limbo as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

>>149171617
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : Steve Skroce was brought on to AMAZING SPIDER-MAN at the behest of Bob Harras. Skroce had previously been the regular penciler on X-MAN, but expressed to Harras his great interest in Spider-Man and in becoming a penciler on one of the core Spider-Man titles. By that point, Harras was already looking to take longtime AMAZING SPIDER-MAN penciler Mark Bagley off of Spider-Man and have him work on other projects, such as the new THUNDERBOLTS series. Harras believed that Skroce's "X-Men connection" gave him a certain degree of "heat" in the industry, which would presumably help Spider-Man's sales. Harras strongly encouraged Spider-Man editor Ralph Macchio to replace Bagley with Skroce.

>Skroce was certainly a talented artist, but in my opinion, considering how much affection he claimed to have had for Spider-Man and how interested he said he was in becoming a regular Spider-Man penciler, he showed very little commitment or dedication to AMAZING SPIDER-MAN once he got the gig. He lasted less than a year (seven-and-a-half issues in all, not consecutive), and in that space of time, he took two "sabbaticals" from the book. After penciling just three issues (#'s 418-420), another artist had to be brought in to pencil half of #421. After that, Skroce took a three-month leave of absence to work on storyboards for the first "Matrix" movie, so Joe Bennett filled in as the penciler of issues 422 through 424. Skroce returned for issues 425 through 428, but then he took another "sabbatical"… one from which he never returned.

>>149171348 (OP)
please let them both survive i really liked Peter and Ben hanging around together

>>149171645
>With Mark Bagley having been a regular part of Spider-Man's adventures for so long, and having been part of the Clone Saga since the beginning, I felt (and still feel) that it was a damn shame he didn't get to at least see the story line through to the end. It would have been nice for him to get the chance to illustrate the ASM chapter of "Revelations," and to have been the artist who got to finally reveal the identity of the master villain on the last page of the issue.

>Mark, off course, later went on to pencil the highly successful and critically acclaimed ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN series, for which he is still the regular artist, and I'm happy for him. He was always a pleasure to work with, and I regret that I didn't get to work with him more often.

>As for Steve Skroce, he did some covers for me when I became the editor of X-MAN, and I know he did a story arc for WOLVERINE a while back, but I don't know where he is these days, or what he's up to.

>>149171479
I spy some cameos!

>>149171479
Good Grief!

>>149171827
I'm a bit surprised that the other day no one pointed out Jimmy 6's girl Harleen referring to him as Mr. J

>>149171876
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : I vividly remember all the little bits and story elements that Bob Harras absolutely insisted had to be in the "Revelations" story line. Among them was the sequence where the Parker baby is apparently delivered to Alison Mongrain, and Norman Osborn tells her to make sure it's never seen again.

>Some of us on the editorial staff (myself included) absolutely disagreed with this sequence being included, because it raised a question that shouldn't have been raised. We strongly felt that the baby story line should have a clean, clear, definitive ending, and that there should be no lingering doubts or mysteries about the baby's status. If the baby's dead, then let's say the baby's dead and move on. I remember discussing this matter with Harras, and his response was that his way of ending the baby story line "gives hope to the readers who have been waiting for the birth of the baby, it lets them believe that the baby is still out there somewhere, alive, and maybe Peter will find her someday. It'll keep them coming back."

>>149171886
>The problem with that was that there was NEVER going to be a resolution. In fact, Harras said that he didn't want the baby referred to again once the Clone Saga was over. He even wanted it established in the first post-Clone Saga issue, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #241, that six months had elapsed since the end of "Revelations, " so we could just skip over Peter and Mary Jane's mourning period and show that they were pretty much back to normal and Spider-Man was his old, wisecracking self again. Harras wanted the Spider-Man books to move on and away from the Clone Saga as quickly as possible… but he also wanted to play with readers' expectations.

>When some of us editorial staffers privately discussed the situation, we agreed that Harras's approach was very unfair to the readers. Deliberately dangling a plot thread in front of the readers and then just as deliberately abandoning it, with absolutely no intentions to ever resolve it, just didn't seem like the right thing to do, but at that point, we knew better than to even try to talk our editor in chief out of something he obviously felt so strongly about.

>>149171892
>Then again, if we hadn't done it Harras's way, there probably never would have been a SPIDER-GIRL comic book series. As I'm sure many of you already know, writer Tom DeFalco eventually picked up on the Harras-dictated plot thread and ran with it, creating an entire "alternate reality" in which the baby was eventually recovered, alive and well, and grew up to become a web-slinger in her own right. SPIDER-GIRL has certainly earned the critical acclaim it's gotten-it's a fun, enjoyable comic, and it's managed to stick around for several years, escaping cancellation more than once, so I guess something good CAN come out of something bad!

>>149171914
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : As I mentioned in this column waaaaay back, writer Howard Mackie was not much of a "continuity" person. When writing stories that had to deal with or debunk past continuity, Howard tended to give hurried and unsatisfying explanations, or he would simply dance around the matter and quickly move on, hoping that no one would care too much. This did not make him the ideal person to write PETER PARKER: SPIDER-MAN #75 (which, by the way, was the first issue to bear this modified title).

>This story, after all, would have to confront and debunk a bona fide classic Spider-Man story, one that had rightfully achieved legendary status. The most important job of PPSM #75, besides ending the Clone Saga, was to convince long-suffering and long-jaded readers that, despite all evidence to the contrary, Norman Osborn had not really died, that he had been alive all along and was manipulating Peter Parker's life from afar. For this to work, to get the readers to accept this, the explanation had to be clear and logical. It could not raise more questions than it answered. Just as importantly, the information had to be conveyed with crisp, compelling dialogue rather than stiff, overwritten exposition.

>>149171956
>None of this, however, played to Howard's strengths as a writer.

>For this reason, PPSM #75 became very much a group effort. For starters, Editor in Chief Bob Harras was heavily involved in developing the plot. The jeopardy at the Daily Bugle involving the supporting cast came from him, as did the tone of the interactions between Norman and Peter-right down to some of their dialogue.

>At the request of editor Ralph Macchio, I was also heavily involved, along with Ralph's former assistant editor, Mark Bernardo, who had just recently been promoted and was no longer working on the Spider-Man books. (I believe my boss, editor Tom Brevoort was also involved, but to a lesser extent.) We made comments on each draft of Howard's plot, pointing out inconsistencies, continuity gaffes, and instances where Howard strayed too far from what had been agreed upon (or requested by Harras) in advance. Howard went through several drafts of the plot before we all agreed that it was satisfactory enough to be sent to John Romita Jr. for penciling.

>>149171431
They were around by the Early 90s!

>>149171421
>Richard Case
Did he do anymore Marvel work?

>>149172001
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : It should be pointed out here that the reason why Peter's spider-sense didn't warn him about Dr. Folsome and the injection is because his spider-sense had been temporarily nullified by the mysterious gas that Stromm used on Peter and Ben during the battle in AMAZING #418. (This is also the reason why Norman was able to sneak up behind Ben and render him unconscious at the end of that same issue.) Looking back, this plot point should have been made much clearer in the actual "Revelations" story line. As written, it was handled far too subtly and was easy to miss.

>>149171610
I kinda like this logo for Amazing Spider-Man.

>>149171801
>pumpkin
>bomb
Oh no, Ned is back from the dead!!!

>>149172072
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : There's no denying that this was a very powerful and dramatic moment, beautifully illustrated by John Romita Jr. and Scott Hanna. In fact, I would have to say that the best thing about PPSM #75 was getting the chance to see JR Jr.'s depictions of Norman Osborn and the Green Goblin, both of whom he'd never really gotten a chance to draw before. Say what you will about the story, and I know how much Spider-Man fandom was split on that, but I don't think ANYTHING negative can be said about the work that John and Scott did on this issue.

>>149172122
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : In addition to the plot, Mark Bernardo and I were also very involved in the script stage of this issue. With Ralph, we went through the entire script and tightened, punched up, and rewrote the dialogue where it was needed.

>When Howard Mackie was scripting the first scene between Peter and Norman, he called me and asked how Norman survived his apparent death in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #122, how he'd gotten away, where he'd been all this time, and what were the most important bits of information about Norman's activities that would absolutely need to be covered in PPSM #75. I was a bit taken aback, because all of the information Howard was asking for had been included in the detailed Norman Osborn time line that I put together, which Ralph Macchio had already sent to Howard and the other Spider-Man writers. Now, here was Howard, making it very clear that he had never read the time line. I found that interesting, since Howard, of all the regular Spider-Man writers, was the one who would exclusively be dealing with Norman in this story line, and therefore the time line would be of most use to him.

>Nevertheless, I gave Howard the information he needed, and when the script pages for this scene came in, I did some tweaking on the dialogue to ensure that the information would be consistent with the time line and, more importantly, with THE OSBORN JOURNAL, which was well underway at that point.

>When I thought about how much work I had done on PPSM #75, and the fact that a significant amount of material that I had developed for THE OSBORN JOURNAL would first appear in PPSM #75-well before my one-shot would hit the stands-I went to Ralph and asked for an acknowledgment in the credits. Ralph agreed that I had made enough contributions to deserve such an acknowledgment, which is why I received that "With Special Thanks To" credit.

>>149171939
Yeah, until they decided to do Clone Saga II with Mayday and April.

>>149172207
the entire current editorial department in one page.

>>149172280
I honestly have no clue how Norman came back from this and made people not know he's the Goblin.

Hell, I still don't know how he got a full get out of jail free card after the shit he did it Siege (I'm not even sure we will see that on this ride.).

Norman gets a lot more jovial once he pulls on his mask

>>149172337
what did Foggy do?

>>149172409
Liz.

Ben, no....

>>149171348 (OP)
The whole thing with Ben and Peter being brothers may be wholesome and cool but having Ben be Spider-Man with Peter tagging along with his spider powers but no costume wasn't sustainable. Marvel couldn't commit to anything so of course they went back to the status quo. Getting rid of Scarlet Spider and having Ben be Spider-Man was what doomed him. If he went back to being Scarlet Spider and not have his reputation ruined then he'd probably have stuck around as that.

>>149172428
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : Ben Reilly's Spider-Man costume is completely tattered and torn when Norman pulls Ben out to show him to Peter. When Ben heads over to the Daily Bugle, he's wearing the clothes that Peter was wearing at the beginning of the issue. As I recall, this was my idea, as I felt there was a great deal of irony in having Ben meet his final fate wearing Peter Parker's clothes

>>149172487
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : I'm not sure who came up with the idea that Ben should be impaled on the Goblin's bat-glider, although I do know that it wasn't me. Obviously, this was done to echo Norman's "death" in AMAZING #122. I think I reacted positively to the idea when I first saw it in the plot. I do know that I didn't try to argue against it. With the Green Goblin back and Ben Reilly having to die, the idea actually seemed pretty appropriate to me.

>I know that a lot of fans complained about how Ben was killed. Some people said that it was ridiculous for Ben to have flung himself in front of the glider, and that he didn't even NEED to do it, as Peter's spider-sense would have warned him in time. But, as I mentioned before (and as it SHOULD have been made clearer in the actual story), both Peter and Ben's spider-senses had been temporarily nullified, so Peter wasn't aware that the glider was headed right for him. Also, Ben had been badly beaten so his reaction time was down, and he was out of costume, so it's not like he could use his web-shooters to snag the glider and fling it away from Peter.

No!
NO!!

>>149172431
Oh no

>>149172514
>>149172521
Fucking F for a real one.

>>149172521
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : We knew that with Ben's death, it had to be made abundantly clear who was the original and who was the clone, once and for all. To finally get past this Clone Saga, there could be absolutely no more questions about who was who. Sure, Norman had explained everything earlier in the issue, but he was the BAD GUY! Who could believe anything HE says, right?

>Bob Harras suggested that the simplest, most effective, and most dramatic way to resolve this was to have Ben's body experience clone degeneration upon his death. That would prove without a shadow of a doubt, to both Peter and the readers, that Ben had been the clone. Mark Bernardo and I had mentioned to Bob that clone degeneration, as established throughout the entire Clone Saga, didn't really work that way, but Harras's reponse was something along the lines of, "It works that way in this instance." Mark and I just shrugged our shoulders and went along with it.

>Since the conclusion of this story line, some people have asked why Ben Reilly had to die at all. They've wondered why he couldn't just find out that he wasn't really the original Peter Parker, pack up his things, leave New York, and head out on the road again. Well, I'm afraid Ben's death was a foregone conclusion once it was decided that Peter had to be restored as the original. As it was said in the first "Highlander" movie, "There can be only one." There simply was no room in the Marvel Universe for two characters with the same exact powers, and many of the same memories. Spider-Man had to be unique, and he couldn't be unique with Ben Reilly out there somewhere. As much as I liked Ben, I agreed with the Powers That Be at Marvel that for the good of Spider-Man, he had to be killed off.

>>149172533
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : Ironically, the end of the Clone Saga had long been planned to coincide with the end of Peter and Mary Jane's marriage. And yet, when it finally came down to wrapping up the Saga, the story line ended with the marriage-and Peter and Mary Jane's devotion to each other-being stronger than ever. I don't remember the reason for this about-face. Maybe we figured that we'd get so much hate mail just from bringing back Norman Osborn, that if we also broke up Peter and MJ, we'd have a full-scale riot on our hands!

>Looking back at PETER PARKER: SPIDER-MAN #75, I have to say that it's far from being the completely satisfying, never-to-be-forgotten classic that it probably should have been. Let's face it: it was no AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #122. But it could have been a LOT worse-it could have been another MAXIMUM CLONAGE OMEGA.

>>149172487
oh no not like this

>>149172514
F

>>149172543
>There simply was no room in the Marvel Universe for two characters with the same exact powers, and many of the same memories.
Oh, the irony in that statement.

>>149172514
;_;
Good night, sweet prince.

>>149172514
Bros...

>>149172545
So, no one told the New Warriors?

>>149172514
Thats too cruel...

>>149172514
>>149172521
F
Clone or not you were Spider-Man
>>149172593
Jimmy 6 was a real one

>>149172593
based Jimmy

>>149172623
so he's just wolverine now?

>>149171421
>2016
I though this was more like 2003.

>>149172623
Nah, I'm disregarding this part and calling it as the official end of Peter's time as Spider-Man. Now comes the era of Mayday.

>>149172725
If you're going do that, you canonically have to wait for the Gathering of Five.

>>149172725
Well, technically the Spider-Girl continuity starts a littler further in.

>>149172682
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : Okay, now we're in for a loooong stretch from me. THE OSBORN JOURNAL was put on Marvel's publishing schedule for a December 1996 release, before anyone knew what it was. It was just a title that one of our execs came up with, but there was no concept. At a casual Marvel lunch one day, I suggested to Ralph what I thought the project should be: an explanation of the whole Clone Saga, and how Norman Osborn fit in with the previous 24 years worth of Spider-Man continuity, told in Norman's own words and from his point of view. My idea was to take a similar approach to how Marv Wolfman occasionally wrote issues of the classic TOMB OF DRACULA series from the 1970s, in which the stories were taken directly from Dracula's journal and were told from his point of view. Ralph liked the idea, and he suggested that I should be the one to write it.

>But I turned him down.

>While it had been a longtime tradition at Marvel, starting with Stan Lee himself, that editorial staffers could also write comics, Bob Harras had made it known after he became Editor in Chief that it was now considered a conflict of interest for staffers to do freelance writing and it would only be allowed on certain occasions. I certainly did not want to bring myself to Harras's attention by trying to go against his edict, so I advised Ralph to go with another writer, and I suggested Kurt Busiek. Kurt had just recently written the SPIDER-MAN: LEGACY OF EVIL painted one-shot that recounted the entire history of the Green Goblin, and was still writing UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN for Tom Brevoort and me. If there was anyone who knew Spider-Man's past and present continuity and could weave it all together to make it work with the notion that Norman Osborn had been alive all along, it was Kurt. Ralph understood my reasoning for turning down the assignment, and agreed that Kurt would be a good choice.

Fuckin' evil wizard-ass
hunched over desk with his grimace and his quill

>>149172693
>A short time later, Ralph came back to me and said that he spoken to Kurt about doing THE OSBORN JOURNAL, but Kurt turned him down. According to Ralph, Kurt said that having just written LEGACY OF EVIL, he didn't want to do another book focusing on the Green Goblin. Also, Kurt apparently wanted to start moving away from writing "historical" projects like MARVELS and LEGACY OF EVIL and even UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN. (Within a year, Kurt would find himself firmly rooted in the present, taking on both THE AVENGERS and IRON MAN after "Heroes Reborn" was over.)

>With Kurt having turned the project down, I told Ralph that I'd love to write it, but I was still concerned about how Bob Harras would react to it. Ralph told me that he would talk to Bob and clear everything, so I shouldn't worry. Next thing I knew, I was writing the thing and never heard an angry word from Harras about it, so I guess Ralph came through on his end.

>>149172717
>For a variety of reasons, I couldn't follow the format of the "journal" issues of THE TOMB OF DRACULA as much as I'd originally envisioned. The project became more of an illustrated sequence of events, with running commentary from Norman Osborn. But at least with Kyle Hotz doing the art, it was a BEAUTIFULLY illustrated sequence of events! Kyle really wanted to get into Norman's twisted mind with the visuals, as much as I wanted to with the words, and he did a wonderful job. Kyle added great little touches as he penciled the pages, little details and ideas that he came up with as he went along, and these really enhanced the project. It was an absolute pleasure working with him, and I regret that I covered up so much of his work with my damned captions and word balloons!

>To get started on THE OSBORN JOURNAL, I wrote up a detailed time line of Norman Osborn's probable whereabouts and activities from his "death" in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #122 up to his dramatic return in PETER PARKER: SPIDER-MAN #75. Once that was done, I gave a copy to Ralph for his feedback, to see if I needed to make any adjustments. Ralph told me he liked it so much that as far as he was concerned, my time line was an official part of the canon, and he sent copies of it to all of the core Spider-Man writers so they'd have it as reference for when they had to deal with Norman in their issues. I was off to a good start!

>>149172733
>GLENN'S COMMENTS : My original idea for the beginning of THE OSBORN JOURNAL was to show Norman bursting forth from his grave. But Tom Brevoort rightly pointed out to me out that an autopsy would have to have been performed on Norman before he was buried, and there's simply NO way he could have survived that, healing factor notwithstanding. So I had to work around that. But I soon realized that by addressing the autopsy directly as a story point, a door had opened for me that would allow me to bring in Harry Osborn and have him get involved as early as possible in terms of protecting the secret that his father was the Green Goblin. It was a way to show Harry beginning to take some real initiative, which would impress Norman.

>>149171525
>>149171598
wtf

>>149172580
Do we see Jimmy 6 again?

>>149172841
Yeah he sticks around for a bit. I wanna say that once Mackie stops writing he goes away though

>>149172841
No this isn't the end of Jimmy 6

So, what about Traveler?
Like that was never wrapped up? Are we going to see him again, or is he just going to start showing up in x-men comics in 30 years?

>>149172894
The latter. No one but JMD cared about him and I can only assume that whatever story JMD wanted to tell couldn't be done after the retcons once he came back

>>149172900
Was this before or after Warren got help from the High Evolutionary?

>>149172409
Be Matt Murdock's friend. So he's gotta suffer too

They're really dragging Trainer through the mud
First he was a turncoat and now he's a thief and a whimpering coward

>>149172533
this is loss

>>149172964
They're taking "shoot the messenger" to new extremes

>>149173062
>"BACK... to FORMULAAAAA..."

>>149172724
This is from the collected trade, hence the later date.

>>149172964
I missed a few threads, so Seward is now just a scumbag?

>>149173103
Oh, no
Now he's a corpse in an alleyway

>>149173103
I believe the full chain of events is
>Was Warren's assistant
>Blackmailed by Scrier
>Sent to monitor Ben
>Grows to like Ben
>Fakes the clone test to make Ben seem real
>Discovers who Scrier works for and tries to help Ben
>Is killed

>>149173164
>has a daughter who becomes an octopus
>gets lost in cyberspace for a while

I really fucking hate this

>>149171525
This is so stupid.

>>149173261
That means Norman wins

>>149171892
>The protagonist of Marvel is back

>>149171892
B, BUT HOW? HE DIED!

>>149173389
he got better

>>149173395
>getting impaled through the chest = getting turned into a newt
Did his glider weigh the same as a duck?

And there we have the full condensed version of that last two months worth of threads
The Clone Saga is officially over! Everyone is dead or unhappy!

And I begin my summer vacation, so storytime is now on hiatus for the next three weeks or so, at least

Thanks for reading everyone, it's been fun

And there we have the full condensed version of that last two months worth of threads
The Clone Saga is officially over! Everyone is dead or unhappy!

And I begin my summer vacation, so storytime is now on hiatus for the next three weeks or so, at least

Thanks for reading everyone, it's been fun!

>>149173426
Thanks for storytiming, Magister! See you then!

>>149173421
>>149173426
Thanks magister this was really fun, i'll miss Ben. See you in the gash threads i guess.

>>149173426
Thanks Magister, this has been fun.
Now that we're all wrapped up, what did you think of Clone Saga? And did it live up to its reputation?

>>149172122
How does everyone feel about all the retcons needed to bring him back? Do you think they worked? Or are they bad?

>>149172307
>I honestly have no clue how Norman came back from this and made people not know he's the Goblin.
Note that he's keeping the mask on when he's in front of everyone in the Bugle. Spec #250 and Spider-Hunt cover how Norman manages to convince the world that he's not the Green Goblin.

>Hell, I still don't know how he got a full get out of jail free card after the shit he did it Siege
It's mostly just Norman having friends in high places who were willing to help him out. The main thing he did that anyone knew about was defying a presidential order not to attack Asgard, a lot of people may have thought Norman was right, especially after an Asgardian threat attacked the world shortly afterwards in Fear Itself.

Nobody in-story has ever connected Norman to the stadium attack at the start of Siege, and the actual story is Loki magically coercing Norman to ask Loki to create an incident that would justify an attack on Asgard, and Norman not knowing what the incident was going to be until Loki did it.

>>149173487
Fucking awful

>>149172514
>>149172521
RIP, Ben. You lived and died a hero, and it was a kinder fate than Marvel had in store for you.

>>149172543
I get why people at Marvel in 1996 felt Ben had to die to end the Clone Saga and draw a line under it. I just don't get why modern Marvel felt it was a good idea to bring Ben back and try to turn him into a villain several times. Did people still liking him offend them that much they had to desecrate his memory?

>>149173487
I think Glenn did a decent job considering the shit he had to work with

>>149172253
I hate how easily Norman beat Ben.

>>149172270
Suddenly Ben lost his main character energy and is being treated like a supporting character. This sucks man

>>149172703
>so he's just wolverine now?
His healing's not as stupidly OP and rapid as Wolverine, but in the Gold Goblin mini he gets impaled on his glider again and survives it, and most other characters who've used the Goblin Formula have healed from injuries that should have killed them, though it doesn't work out so well for Phil Urich.

>>149173347
And we won't be seeing Traveler again.

>>149172928
It would have been so easy to undo the retcon as itself being just more illusion, but it never happened, and then an X-Men comic 30 years later doubles down on the retcon and grabs him because of an "all mutants are property of the X-books" mentality.

JMD's Silver Surfer run did however introduce the real Scrier that the Scrier cult were worshipping, IIRC he also appeared in a Spider-Man annual JMD wrote.

>>149173543
Gen X writers never really got over the clone saga

>>149172751
Does Norman's pet chameleon have a name, and will we ever see it again?

It's kind of funny how Kaine just gets forgotten outside Spider-Girl until the 2010s

>>149172495
Did Peter just try to murder him

>>149173780
He shows up a little bit in the "Post-Clone Saga" era coming up, it's just that starting with Byrne onwards they want to pretend the whole thing never happened. It was novel when Millar included Ben in his page of Peter's failures because he'd been ignored for so long by then

>>149171446
I just don’t get the logic of making Ben the REAL Peter. Why fuck yourselves with saying the last decade and a half or so “didn’t matter”?

>>149173780
He should've been Chasm. If they aren't going to use him otherwise, he makes more sense for the role without having to assassinate his character.

Don't forget folks, the worst thing Norman has ever done is throw Gwen off a bridge!

>>149174126
Spidercide was literally back written into being chasm by JMD himself and it’s stupid they haven’t caught on yet. It fits and lets them use clones to their hearts content. It’s legitimate pettiness they haven’t pivot into it yet but is always there for a future editor

>>149173451
If I had to actually spend two years reading this I might have been as sick as everyone else
As it is it isn't *that* bad, and geting the behind the scenes comments tells me that the writer were always being hamstrung in some way anyway so it's possibly the best of a bad situation
The whole thing was definitely blown out far past it's intended scope and every part of the project suffered for it

I can say that I wasn't left with the bad taste in my mouth that the climax of Peter Parker's Parents gave me

I miss Ben

>>149171876
>>149171915
I hope everyone involved dies if they haven't already.

>>149171939
Can we just start reading Spider-Girl now?

Chasm this and Chasm that! But what did everyone think of Ben as Jackal or when he was hanging out in Las Vegas?

>>149173426
Thanks Magister, I interrupted my Clone Saga reprint read for this and it was well worth it. I still struggle to care for Osborn Journal though.

>>149174526
We still have Gathering of Five to go.

>>149174627
Well, let's not "ruin" the whole thing for Magister, eh?

>>149172724
This comic was from 1996.

And by the way since we don't have hangout threads anymore, Mafex announced a 2.0 of Scarlet Spider. Some catches though, costs $90~ (￥14,080) and is event exclusive, so good luck if you're interested.

>>149172514
It didn't have to be this way...

>>149171870
ENTER

>>149172041
I think Norman coming back as the Goblin sealed Venom's fate to returning as a villain.

>>149172682
Damn, who's his barber?

>>149174627
I disliked both

>>149172514
>Take care of my "niece"...peter tell her about...her uncle ben...
>She's already "dead" when he said this
fuck me this hurts

>>149174627
dumb

>>149173543
>I just don't get why modern Marvel felt it was a good idea to bring Ben back
We meme about it but it really is all Lowe's fault, and no one else cared.

>>149173793
Oh yeah I'm sure Peter was actually going for the kill with webbing those bombs onto Norman. It was ON SIGHT.
>>149172514
Fuck me this gets me every time I read the Clone Saga. Like to me Ben was my Spider-Man, he was my introduction to Spider-Man comics as a whole.
>>149172598
Rest in peace... Fuck you Slott for ruining this

>>149171876
It's weird how Norman is now a good guy and yet still hasn't told Peter where his baby ended up

>>149177957
Because Norman will be sued by Marvel editorial.

Imagine if DC introduced a woman coming from Europe and getting confused like she came from another world and she has with her a young redhead girl with legally distinct spider powers.

>>149177957
Even weirder that the reference made it to Cantwell's book without raising eyebrows. I'd like to believe that was a flex over Lowe's poor grasp of the source material.

>>149173487
Norman should've stayed dead honestly.

>>149171348 (OP)
oh dude what'll yo do once you reach the Civil War tie-ins? Fecking Millar gave Quesada ideas. Stupid ideas.....

>>149171348 (OP)
Oh yeah

>>149171490
Betty is so sexy oh my god

>>149172041
>>149172072
>>149172077
I do agree that JRJR draws a nice Osborn and GG

>>149171876
>>149171886
>>149171954
I thought I gave up on Spider-Man comics but here I am seeing this again after years and trying not to cry about it

>>149173221
That he doesn't claim to be responsible for Aunt May's status seems important.

>>149179165
It really does feel like it was going to be Harry coming back because of this page >>149172467

>>149177519
To be fair , Marvel was not honoring Ben's death before Slott eiither. Ignoring Ben sacrifice was a disrespect to the character too

>>149172122
I love it when Norman strips

>>149173426
Thanks for the storytime! Now, after reading with you guys since the 80s part of this storytime, I can see why some enjoyed this era but it's not for me. Ben isn't a bad character at all but I don't think he was necessary and Pete unfortunately got caught up in that craze of "MAJOR CHARACTER ALTERING EVENT" that the 90s loved oh too much. And, IMHO, it opened the door for others to really fuck over Spider-Man in the long run.

>>149174627
>when he was hanging out in Las Vegas?
The whole run was based.