Why does Marvel hate him?

>>149315107 (OP)
Because his storyline was when Spider-Man jumped the shark.

>>149315107 (OP)
>still has his 10/10 girlfriend
Doesn't entirely hate him.

>>149315107 (OP)
He’s a blonde Peter Parker who’s single. Guess what?
Marvel already has a brown haired Peter Parker who’s single.

Shift is a deformed shape changing Miles Morales.
Boy-Spider is an animalistic Bailey Briggs.
Kaine is a cursed/damaged Peter Parker.

Those are all clones notably different from the originals.

Ben Reilly offers nothing different from Peter unless you fundamentally change him into Chasm for example.

>>149315164
This is it, he's sadly just a test run for them eventually going all the way and taking away the real Peter Parker's marriage.

>>149315164
This, Peter basically IS Ben Reilly now.

>>149315107 (OP)
Well I like him
And I bought his action figure

>>149315336
He’s trash

>>149315498
I'll agree that he was thrown away like trash

>>149315107 (OP)
Ben Reilly was the original Miles Morales. A Peter Parker replacement that ultimately stayed in Peter Parker's shadow.

>>149315118
His retarded girlfriend is a huge part of the reason he got fucked over

Not only he's a character from an era comics in general want to pretend didn't exist, he's also a character who overstayed his welcome and was a pain in the ass to get rid of
I recommend reading 101 Ways to End The Clone Saga to have a small insight on how messy was to get rid of Ben

>>149315107 (OP)
But why does Marvel hate her?

lole

>>149315936
>he's a character from an era comics in general want to pretend didn't exist
and yet insist on continuing it in some fashion

>>149315107 (OP)
Because there's simply
>*introduces the tight, docile Asian Spider-geisha (konnichiwa, dudes!)*
no space
>*brings Miles into 616 because there weren't enough characters left in the Ultimate universe to kiss his ass*
for Ben Reilly
>*resurrects Jessica Drew even though nobody this side of Bendis still cares about her*
in the modern
>*reaches right down to the bottom of the barrel and comes up with both a Spider-Boy AND a Spider-Girl (Forma Loli)*
Spider-Man landscape.
>*brings Spider-Gwen into 616 too because she needs another new gimmick for her tenth #1*

>>149315107 (OP)
Basically this >>149315116 in a sense as the writers got too ambitious and editorial got retarded, combined with more blatant commercialization that was obvious to the average consumer back then with gimmick covers and books connecting across multiple titles. Now that same commercialization is just variants and decompressiob combined with ragebait stories.
Marvel now just uses that previous era as a scapegoat instead of taking it in good faith and recognizing the good and bad beyond books that reminice or collect that saga. So yeah they're finnicky and hypocritical and when pressed about the saga they'll say they like those aspects too but won't recognize the disparity between then and now i.e. Ben vs. Miles, page counts, and heroes engaging in more choreographed action as well as stories willing to end with uplifting victories or bittersweet reconciliations

>>149315107 (OP)
Fans hated him when he came out. And now those people are in charge.

>>149315949
It would be funny if they brought her back as a mind controlled villain.
Attacking Silk, Araná and Ghost-Spider and telling them “it would be so much better for you if you gave up your agency and joined the Jackal harem.”

>>149315954
I know it's been said a million times, but holy shit JRJR cannot draw. Why are Ben's legs so fucking tiny, he looks like a l4d2 jockey

>>149316585
damnit now i can't unsee it

it's funny that he got his own alter ego even though he's an actual clone of peter but miles sticks with being "spider-man 2"

>>149316526
That's a lie. Fan reaction was positive, and spider books remained a top seller in the 90s, according to Life of Reilly and JMD blog posts.
The problem was that DeFalco got fired from his editor-in-chief position, and then Marvel replaced spider editorial thrice in two years, each successive one only making things worse in terms of Clone Saga overstaying its welcome due to positive initial reception, and destroying a way out of it story-wise (DeFalco said there was one when the story began).

>>149316638
I was discussing the clone saga with two boomers that run my LCS who were actually around for the clone saga as it was happening, and they confirmed that fan reaction was negative.
Plus now I know that staff reaction was negative too, not many writers were jazzed about writing a "fake" Spider-Man
Couple that with marketing doing more to steer the ship than the constantly rotating editorial staff and you end up with what ultimately ended up happening

But fuck it, I liked Ben

>>149316620
Because Miles is the true.

>>149316693
I was there too. Wizard magazine was actively condemning it every chance they got. Even if you weren’t reading Spider comics, you knew the clone saga sucked.
All of those writers left the industry.

>>149315116
but maximum carnage and the robot parents came before the clone saga

>>149316805
Maximum carnage was based.

>>149316870
Maximum Carnage was... okay
The gimmick of it spanning the time between issues of Spider-Man Unlimited made it feel like it was spinning its wheels a lot
Maybe if they had more committed to a revolving door of heroes and villains instead of bloating the casts near the start I would have enjoyed it more

>>149316693
IIRC Ben was decently liked until they tried to retcon him into being the real Peter Parker

>>149315164
>>149315288
>Marvel wants Spider-Man to be a down on his luck 20s something single Peter Parker
>Marvel already has a character that is literally a down on his luck 20s something single Peter Parker
>he's either dead or a villain
They could have their cake and eat it too if they were smart.

>>149318515
You're not getting the part where he's not Peter Parker and comes from a notoriously bad era of comics
They would have to actually work on selling the concept instead of just shitting out another bad Spidey book

>>149316805
People liked Maximum Carnage though. Carnage used to be special and Venom used to move books. The robot parents happen around the time of the Clone Saga so I feel they get a pass due to something much worse hitting so soon thereafter.

Ben was originally meant to replace Peter, but he failed to catch on so they killed him off. It's especially hard for his presence to be justified in a post-Miles world, since Miles is so similar to Peter in a lot of ways already, +extra.

I think an interesting idea for a reboot of the Clone Saga is if you changed Ben and Kaine's concepts. What I'd do is I'd have each of them exaggerate a certain element of Spider-Man. Kaine would have stronger physical stats and organic webs, but as a trade-off he'd be a little bit dumber. Reasonably bright, but not a turbo-genius like Peter. Ben would amplify the "Peter" traits, being even smarter than Peter, but his Spider powers take a hit and he's physically inferior in every way, so he makes up for his deficiencies with his smarts. Like mechanical arms and shit. Maybe take a page out of the "mutation" saga from the 90s cartoon, where he has a four mechanical, human-like arms.

>>149317356
People were pissed that they jobbed Venom to him to get him over when Venom was working the Lethal Protector gimmick for years before it. And for what? To do the Separation Anxiety miniseries?

>>149318647
I mean, Kaine's concept is already:
>"What if Spider-Man was an edgy 90s anti-hero?"

>>149318746
Kaine beat Doctor Octopus to death and still have no fans. Kaine sucks.

>>149315107 (OP)
It's criminal that they used this art style and proceeded to barely use him at all. Man he looks cool. If they used this on OG Miguel's costume...holy fuck. If OG Miguel is brought in to BTFO ATSV Miguel in a Rian Johnson type subversion of the previous director's vision and looked like what I described and then revealed the other Spiders were in on this plan, then there would be a slim chance I'd tolerate Miles and his bullshit.

>>149318767
Kaine was at his best when he was cowboy Spider-Man and had his illegal hispanic loli sidekick.

>>149315107 (OP)
Because he came out in a time when Marvel would actually listen to what fans wanted and what might sell. God, can you imagine if all these current pets had to survive back then? They'd be event fodder before the first following summer

>>149318833
keep my nigga kaine shuttered please

>>149318767
He's constantly in pain and is very overdramatic, so it hard to feel he is cool instead of damaged.

A better idea would have been to give him the Venom symbiote and be a bad guy but too late for that now.

>>149319949
Venom was more popular as Eddie Brock and means you have a smaller Venom than with an absolutely massive guy Eddie. That is a terrible idea.

>>149315107 (OP)
Are we truly Marvel?

>>149315107 (OP)
Ben was a compelling character when he was grappling with the identity crisis of being a clone, and he got a lot of genuinely good stories out of that idea. Then even later on when he'd replaced Peter (but was on his way out behind the scenes) he had a lot of fun moments with Peter.
He was a fun character who died a good death. He didn't need to be brought back, but Slott wanted a shitty twist villain and Lowe doesn't like him, and now that he's back they don't know what to do with him.

>>149315107 (OP)
How Marvel

>>149315958
Ben died a hero, and some fans miss him. So people who hated him brought him back from the dead and keep making him a villain to destroy what legacy he had.

>>149316760
>Anon admits to being an NPC who got his opinions from Wizard magazine
>Wizard were condemning the Clone Saga BEFORE IT EVEN STARTED
Wizard had been throwing a years-long tantrum that Spider-Man comics weren't the same as they were in the 80s when Stern was writing it and the Wizard writers were kids, and were bitching about anything and everything the Spidey books did.

And not many of the Clone Saga era writers are still working in comics 20 years later, but most of them kept working for Marvel for years afterwards.

>>149318647
>It's especially hard for his presence to be justified in a post-Miles world, since Miles is so similar to Peter in a lot of ways already, +extra.
Anon, if it came down to a binary choice of keeping Ben or keeping Miles, and you had to make your decision based on the actual quality of the character and his material, and not on "we've got to have a black guy because reasons", nobody's going to choose to keep Miles except those blacked fetishists who keep trying to pretend he's not zesty as hell.

>>149316760
>All of those writers left the industry.
Is this the part where we pretend that JMD and DeFalco aren't some of the best Spider-Man writers of all time?

>That person in the storytimes who was posting interviews about how you had editorial writing the story so you had very contradictory directions taken, big twists/mysteries that were dropped without having a resolution planned, underutilization of Spider-Man's supporting cast, and things that don't match the intended tone/scale of Spider-Man
Pretty much everything complained about still exists in modern Spider-Man

>>149318902
I have this entire run as I subscribed to it through marvels website back when and still to this day I’ve never gotten around to reading it.

>>149315164
>notably different from originals
>Shift is a deformed shape changing Miles Morales.
so spidercide
>Boy-Spider is an animalistic Bailey Briggs.
so doppelganger
Your modern shit is the unoriginal, not ben

>>149324835
I'm not going to claim that Miles' clones aren't all knockoffs of the original Clone Saga guys, but Spidercide also sucked.

>>149315107 (OP)
because the clone saga sucks and jackal sucks.

>>149315107 (OP)
Kaine better

>>149323163
If anything it's worse because no one even wants the book anymore

>>149316870
Lol. fuck off nostalgiababby.
Maximum Carnage was the most cucked Spider-Man has ever been pre-OMD.
>NOOOOO MUH POOR INNOCENT MASS MURDERER IT'S WRONG HE'S NOT TO BLAME FOR HIS ACTIONS IT'S THE SOCIETY
The words "he's the most innocent of us all" were uttered with utmost sincerity. This is after Carnage kills God only knows how many people.
The book is peak "capeshit morality".

>>149321114
I feel like there's potential legacy character concept you can do with him.