>Snyder shits on Superman's adoptive father
>Gunn shits on Superman's biological father
Why?

Superman's bio father is evil and hates humans in the comics.

>>149387046 (OP)
Creates good conflict if the two parents have very different views for Clark.
Although I'd argue that Snyder didn't shit on the Kents as much as Gunn did the Els dirty. Johnathan is stubborn but he got good intention. Gunn just made Jor-El an evil fascist for some reason.

>>149387055
No he doesn't, you dumbass
Stop falling for the "Gunn accurately adapts comics" meme.

>>149387046 (OP)
>Catholic director
>Jewish director
>Gen-X
Their fathers beat the shit out of them.

I thought it was a weird choice to make the Els kind of "evil" to an extent but I can't really pretend to care when they are dead and will surely remain dead in any followups. The most important thing has always been his humanity and compassion which he gets primarily from the Kents, I don't think it's very important

>>149387086
Yes he does, you idiot
He was a whole entire event villain to himself called “Mr Oz”, specifically because he was sent to earth by the blue dick and went “ew these humans are so shitty why didn’t you make them behave Kal?”

>>149387055
>>149387086
Jor-El was established to be evil in the Man of Steel by John Byrne, but this was a retcon and Krypton was originally more utopian.
I'm not generally a fan of fascist Krypton, but I thought it worked well in the new Superman to help reinforce his fundamental humanity.

>>149387046 (OP)
Snyder sees Jor-El as God sending his only begotten son to save humanity, so therefore Joseph is an ineffectual nothing
Gunn sees Clark as a nature vs nurture story, so therefore Jor-El has to be a dick

But Jor-El is basically always ultimately irrelevant to Superman as an adult, with 99% of his moral character coming from the Kents, so it doesn't really matter.

>>149387086
Casual

>>149387109
Both are catholic

>>149387055
>>149387218
Last time the comics focused on Jor-El, they basically made him a dindu nuffin.
He made the Phantom Zone Projector, but it wasn't his idea for it to be a prison, his invention was confiscated and repurposed by bureaucrats.

>>149387218
>Jor-El was established to be evil in the Man of Steel by John Byrne

No, he wasn't. At all.

>>149387279
Last time the comics focused on Jor-El, he created a monster on earth during his modern stint as a supervillain that got sent back in time and caused Krypton to be destroyed in the first place

>>149387208
He was only evil because he had kryptonite poisoning on his head, Bendis just ignored that and made him evil for real.
Doesn't really matter now since Waid is basically painting him as a good guy again.
>>149387218
>I thought it worked well in the new Superman to help reinforce his fundamental humanity.
Ehhh, I thought it was unnecessary, Clark shouldn't have any real encouragement from his birth parents to be good or evil either way, if he's told to be some beacon of hope, then the Kryptonians might as well be angels, if he's told to be bad, then there really isn't an argument for what Clark should do, obviously denounce his evil parents and be as good as possible.
Ideally, the Els should send Kal away in the rocket JUST SO HE CAN SURVIVE.
No ulterior motives bullshit, the planet is exploding and they have a chance to save their son, all they want is for him to survive, they shouldn't hope that he becomes a god or a conqueror, just hope that he'll get to live.

>>149387218
Byrne's Jor-El wasn't evil, cold maybe, but he wasn't endorsing Kal-el becoming a conqueror. Lara just observed that he could end up ruling the planet and Jor-el agreed it could be a possible outcome, not that he should.

>>149387317
Jor-El was Rupert Zupert or whatever the fuck his name was?

>>149387317
I know you haven't read comics since Bendis took over Superman, but I'm talking about Waid's Phantoms arc from Action Comics earlier this year, pic related.
With Waid writing the New History of the DC Universe, I'm more willing to take his word for how Jor-El was than all the stupid shit Bendis did, most of them have been retconned and/or ignored anyways.

>>149387086
Comic Jor El LITERALLY destroyed Krypton himself and was executed for it by a space jury who declared him the most guilty man in the universe

>>149387376
I like how this was the only time this was ever mentioned and no one, not even Bendis, elaborated on this.
How much you wanna bet they'll ignore this in the New History of the DC Universe.

As long as Jon remains aged up, they'll never truly be able to erase what Bendis did to these characters.

They've got daddy issues. Just look at them.

If they were women they'd have arms full of tattoos, faces full of metal, and buttholes the size of a cookie.

>>149387273
Snyder is a Christian Scientist

>>149387416
It's amazing how that's the one thing they refuse to walk back on, specially when pretty much everything else Bendis did has been retconned or reversed.

>>149387558
You can thank Taylor for that, had he not turned him gay, DC would've killed Jon and brought him back younger like they did with Bart Allen back in the day.

>>149387046 (OP)
It's a bit weird but at the end of the day you can have a good Superman even if you fumble his Kryptonian heritage, you can't if you somehow manage to fuck up the Kents. Pa and Ma Kent should be his moral bedrock, the people that raised him to be the man he ends up being. If you do them dirty you end up inherently corrupting Clark which is exactly what happened with the Snyder movies.

>>149387046 (OP)
They leave it open as a thing of either lex possibly editing it or possibly zod. also i genuinely feel like this was a good idea. reminds me off when they made krypton more sterile/uppity after the first crisis so that he could connect with earth more/earth could connect with him more.

>Snyder Pa Kent
People bitch about him for a single word he himself very clearly isn’t sure of.
Sure, Clark’s classmates dying on a bus isn’t a good situation, but neither is waking up in the night to the FBI or CIA breaking down the your door to take your son away.

>Gunn Jor-El
Yeah this one is bad. I get what it’s trying to go for, but it comes off as a cheap attempt to prop the Kent’s up.
And it kinda makes the whole ‘immigrant’ allegory bit fall apart to essentially go, “The immigrant must denounce his home heritage entirely and prove himself to be one of the ‘good’ aliens to be accepted.”

Anyway, remember how in Smallville, Pa Kent just upfront tells Clark to let people die/get deported and dies trying to murder Lionel Luthor to keep Clark’s secret from the public?

>>149387046 (OP)
Daddy issues are the root of most society's ills

>>149387046 (OP)
Can't have positive male role models in modern Western fiction.

DCAU still did it best.

>>149387208
>>149387218
>>149387376
Personally, I refuse to accept changes that were made 50 years or more after a character's creation by writers who weren't even alive during the character's first 10-30 years of existence. I can enjoy their stories, and if they're really good I can even say they're some of my favorites, and there's rare even times when they can make a change that's good enough that I'm willing to start considering it part of the ubiquitous "canon" "such as the introduction of the symbiote into the Spider-Man mythos" but by and large the original run by the character's creator's is the truest canon with everything else being a temporary change or new addition at best, and horrible drivel at worst. Especially in cases where something that was previously established is then changed by a new writer to now be the opposite of what it originally was.

Just to put things in perspective: Superman was first published in 1938. John Byrne wasn't born until 1950 (12 years after Superman's debut) and Bendis wasn't born until 1967 (29 years after Superman's debut.) No matter what, I can not accept anything either of these men say as "true canon" to the character of Superman because not only did they not create them, he is significantly older than the both of them and they grew up in a world where he was already an established character with an established mythos throughout their childhood. At best, one could say it's a "current trend" or "new gimmick."

>>149387046 (OP)
one is inspired by John Byrne, the other is inspired by Snyder's own poor adaptation of Watchmen. Byrne is far superior so obviously by extension the DCU Superman has a lot more nuance in this matter.

>>149387119
I've always considered Jor-El to be an important figure for Superman thematically. Jor-El was a kind and ingenious scientist and the only person who was able to not only deduce that Krypton was going to explode but also device a ship to safely send Clark to a new world so that he could survive. That speaks a lot to Clark's lineage and family history, as well as what kind of a person he is at his core or the tendencies he has to take after. His Father was smart, kind, capable, and never gave up even in the face of insurmountable opposition. There's also a sweet, yet somber story there in the background as they were genuinely good people who loved their child and made a great sacrifice to send him away and the fact that he not only makes it there but finds a loving family that does take care of him is a blessing born from an unspeakable tragedy. There's also a thematic trend in that Jor-El tried to "save the world" but couldn't, leading to Krypton's destruction, but he was able to save his child who grew up to stand on his Father's shoulders and now saves the world and many others regularly.

It's a sweet and wholesome story, and the replacement fails to live up to it in any way.

>>149387327
I can take it or leave it with them being able to deduce that the yellow sun will give him powers, but I would say that I prefer that they don't know that it will happen. Regardless, though, it makes sense that they would try to impart some kind of lesson to him in their final moments. A lot of parents do that if they know they're going to die before their child is born or at any time when they won't get to be there through adulthood.

>>149388682
Smallville was badass.

>>149388682
>People bitch about him for a single word he himself very clearly isn’t sure of.
That's exactly the problem. Pa shouldn't be uncertain, he should be Clark's bedrock. It's even worse when the most words of encouragement he gives is when he's dead and he's only dead because he went to go save a dog instead of letting his invincible son do it which he then traumatized by forcing him to watch as he died when he was well within the ability to save him.

>>149387046 (OP)
oh my god, when will the shilling for this piece of shit end. Ive never seen this much ads.

>>149389919
>when will the threads for the movie that just released a few days ago and received positive fan reception end?
Gee, I dunno anon.

>>149389930
Nta but I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion with so many ragebait and shill threads. All I get from this mess is that the movie is very divisive, with people either hating or liking it for tribalistic and nerdy reasons more than because it has any merits.

>>149387046 (OP)
It was the ONLY thing I disliked about the picture and it could have been so easily avoided. Just have Lex doctor the footage. Covertly sneak into the fortress of solitude, access the computer or maybe hack one of the robots to mistranslate the message.
Then you could have kept Supermans emotional arc/theme of the picture the same without ruining Jor El for no reason.

>>149387079
Jon Kent admitted to his mistake later and encouraged Clark to go save the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSl6XUJGb0A

>>149389887
Yeah has everybody forgotten "Stop Invincible Son"? It was an infamous meme for a reason, back in the day. Snyder just had a terrible take on the Kents and especially on Pa Kent. You CANNOT fuck up the Kents if you want to do Superman right. Gunn is winning a lot of goodwill precisely because, whatever his other decisions might be, he nailed the idea that the Kents are basically the greatest parents ever. They have to be. They're the reason Superman is the way he is.

Just got out of the cinemas. Never read a comic in my life but I'm half interested now. Any good places to start with the guy?

It will be so fucking hard to have Lobo not being a mountain of cringe onscreen.
I can already imagine the dudebro jokes falling flat.
The out-of-place joke to make a woman cooler than him to diminish toxicity.
I can see it all.

>>149387376

>>149388682
>“The immigrant must denounce his home heritage entirely and prove himself to be one of the ‘good’ aliens to be accepted.”
He's Superman, he's better than you, which is why he even refuses his God-Given Amerimutt right of slaughtering the natives and chooses to be good.

>>149388924
How often does that happen, yo?

>>149390423
really the only way you can properly introduce Lobo is with him throwing fists with Superman and the first punch giving superman a bloody nose.
Barring that only other way is him fighting various green lanterns and no selling green lantern constructs as he rips through everything like tissue paper since his willpower is stronger than 95% of the gls

He's a joke character but a joke character that can punch and kill and maim way above his tier status

>>149391469

Swapping out listening to his bio parents to his adoptive at the end was really sweet and one of the better moments.
100% worth making them retarded

>>149391485
I disagree.

>>149392077
You disagree.

>>149391485
You can still have that ending without the character assassination. Clark no longer pining for what he lost but loving what he received.

>>149387109
Which one, yo?

>>149387046 (OP)
>Superman stays a good person despite his dad
is a better arc than
>Superman's dad tells him to be a good person and he becomes a good person

>>149387046 (OP)
What's the big deal? They made Jor-El an actual villain in the comics.

>>149389887
>Pa Kent needs to be 100% perfect and have no doubts! He's Clark's moral bedrock!
>Pa Kent should have just had his invincible son save the dog, or just prioritized keeping himself safe
Okay, so... which is it? Should Pa Kent be Clark's moral foundation, or should he just have Clark do things so he doesn't have to? That
"invincible son" was helping a mother and her toddler get to safety, as Jon went back for the dog.
If any normal person had been in that situation, they wouldn't have been able to do anything. In that moment, Clark feels how helpless everyone else is in that situation, which is why he then goes on to help others in similarly helpless situations via the nomadic lifestyle at the start of the movie which leads to the Superman persona/identity.

>>149388682
>The immigrant must denounce his home heritage entirely and prove himself to be one of the ‘good’ aliens to be accepted.”
This....this right here.....

>>149394399
Sanest post yet

>>149394399
He should be the moral foundation and not force him to witness an entirely preventable death because of his own fear. Clark wasn't helpless because he lacked the ability, he was helpless because his dad insisted on committing suicide. It's an infinitely shittier version of the Donner movies since the heart attack actually gets the helplessness across by perfectly showcasing that Superman can't save everyone.

>>149389744
>John Byrne
How was his Jor-El in his run? legit curious

>>149387046 (OP)
Snyder wanted Superman to be more like a greek demigod and relate more to his 'divine' kryptonian heritage.
Gunn wants him to be more human 'relatable' and grounded.
Both went about doing it the wrong way. There's a balance here that nobody in DC comics or WB seems to care about.

>>149389744
For years there's an agenda at play here to smear Byrne's Superman as 'pandering to the right wing' and Snyder as a 'randian objectivist edgelord'. Plenty of people i've seen have been quick to try to smear Snyderverse Supes as bad because Gunn took too much from the Byrne comics that were released during the Reagan era, and really leaned into him being a flag waving patriot.

>>149387255
>But Jor-El is basically always ultimately irrelevant to Superman as an adult, with 99% of his moral character coming from the Kents, so it doesn't really matter.
That's probably the biggest reason people are more accepting of Gunn making The Els dicks vs Snyder making the Kents the dicks.

>>149395644
Yeah it's a bit stupid but at the end of the day if you can get the Kents right then you have got the majority of Superman right. I hate the versions that try to make Superman basically a Krpytonian weeabo.

>>149390281
Theres lots of comics that have told and retold the earlydays/start that are real good like Birthright or Secret Origins
If there is a certain supervillain you like there are some omnibus that collect sort of "best of" stories that are also easy to digest.

Honestly even if someone recommends you a starting point sometimes you can just pick up a comic run and figure out from context clues where things have been going to follow along.

>>149396087
>>149390281
I understand skipping the origin story on krypton with the rocket. But could we have at least gotten to see more of Supermans childhood in Smallville?
It's easy to show Superman being a hero, harder to show why he chooses to be hero when he could literally take over the world and solve everyones problems by becoming a benevolent dictator like Red Son Superman.

>>149387046 (OP)
Both make sense based on each interpretation of the character. Snyder's is more in tune with his Kryptonian side so they deemphasized his earth daddy. Gunn wants to emphasize his human side, so he gave the finger to the kryptonian stuff. Both interpretations are valid.

>>149388682
>The immigrant must denounce his home heritage entirely and prove himself to be one of the ‘good’ aliens to be accepted.
really extending the Israel metaphor there

>>149390423
just make him Macho Man Randy Savage but an alien

>>149389887
I feel like this is another issue where it's a death by 1000 blows because Costner did a great fucking job in that scene and it does really establish how deeply he loves and worries for his son which builds on the idea that being Superman is work and a sacrifice not just for himself but everyone who knows and loves him but in the end it really just feels like it amounted to Pa giving Clark a debilitating complex.

>>149389887
>Pa shouldn't be uncertain
He's just a man, you imbecile. it's part of the appeal.

>>149387046 (OP)
> Humanity > Alienity
> (Good guys) The Ideal Humans care about moral supremacy and helping those near their sphere of influence
> (Bad guys) The Ideal Aliens care about material supremacy and exclusively helping those in their sphere of influence

Thus, I reject this James Cameron way of thinking and think it is BS.

>>149389887
Donner's Pa Kent was a bit uncertain, that wasn't the problem, because he was still generally pointing in the right direction, steering Clark against pointless showboating that could jeopardize him and his secret. Snyder Pa Kent's problem is that Clark is genuinely doing the right thing, the only thing to do in the situation he found himself in, and Pa still treats it as an unnecessary risk to Clark's identity.

>>149387046 (OP)
>Starlords bio dad is evil
>peace makers bio dad is evil
>superman's bio dad is evil
am I missing anyone? At least with PeaceMaker his comic book dad was a nazi
He pushes that "found family" thing which is cringe.

>>149388048
In every "Superman is raised by someone else besides the Kents" story they still always have Superman end up being a hero by the end of the story

>>149387079
>for some reason.
it's an allegory for people claiming israel should exist because the torah said so.

>"NOOOOO! HOW DARE GUNN RUIN A CHARACTER WHO'S ESSENTIALLY NOTHING MORE THAN A PLOT DEVICE WHO ONLY EXISTS TO SEND CLARK OFF AND DIE!"

>>149387046 (OP)
Jor El is a plot device

>>149397447
>He pushes that "found family" thing which is cringe
It's why I roll my eyes at the Jor-El moment.

>>149387370
If he doesn't completely retcon Bendis' nonsense including Jon, I'm not picking it up.

>>149396994
It might be a Palestinian metaphor. Superman sees the culture he comes from as backwards due to elements involving the subjugation of women (harems are mentioned) and monarchy, and has to move past that in “American” society to become a good person.

It’s Gunn being a hyper-liberal. He criticizes Israel for genocide but also says Palestinians come from a backward cultural shithole (Islam) and think that both of them should move on and become liberal dopes and sing kumbaya.

>>149387046 (OP)
Both directors are fathercucked

>>149397626
maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think it ties in more to his roots in the Jewish diaspora
>the homeland is gone, and you can never get it back. Better to leave it in the past and do what good you can in your new home.

>>149393936
>Superman becomes a good person then finds what his father says
Is way better

>>149397545
Same thing with Batman's parents
At least Uncle Ben did inspire Peter before dying.

>>149397679
that's not even an arc. There's no conflict

>>149397661
It has those elements too. Israel says they’re trying to save the Palestinians in the movie from Superman who is trying to “enslave” them after the message from Jor-El comes public, so you obviously see the Islam parallel there in the harem and monarchy messaging. But Superman is obviously supposed to be a Jew also who sees his parents’ ideology (analogy of Zionism) to be backward and hence why he identifies himself as American above everything else.

>>149397703
IIRC Boravia says they're trying to free Jarhanpur from a tyrannical government (i.e. Hamas). I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the Jor-El reveal a critique of Islam, and even more of a stretch to call it a critique of Palestine/Palestinians specifically.

>>149397733
Yes, but then after the Jor-El message is released Boravia says they’re trying to save Jarhanpur from Superman who they say wants to enslave them and take their women for his own. It’s not an exact call out against Palestinians either (again Gunn clearly thinks Israel’s conduct towards them is wrong) but he sees both cultures as backwards, basically. He thinks they should both sublimate their problematic heritages into American wishy-washy liberalism.

>>149397764
I disagree.

>>149397700
There is, depending what you choose
>am I good because I was supposed to be good?
Or
>am good, but that wasn't why I'm here...

>>149397700
Finding out that a core belief about yourself is based on an incomplete foundation that was actually meant to tell you the opposite is conflict.

>>149397703
>>149397733
>>149397764
>>149397815

It’s funny how Gunn takes a Byrne and Moore perspective on Krypton specifically, wherein Kal’s heritage was important only in terms of giving him the tools rather than any share of his terminal values. Byrne and Moore made Krypton into a fascist society as a criticism of Siegel’s futurism, and made it merely as a means-to-an-end that Superman used to become who he was.

I find this ironic since Morrison (Gunn’s alleged “biggest influence” through All-Star) specifically goes against this interpretation and has the flower scene at the end of For the Man who Has Everyrhing (where Superman implies it was for the best that Krypton died) subverted when future Superman puts an indestructible flower from New Krypton on Pa Kent’s grave.

>>149397950
I aceppt your conssesion

>>149397950
it's an interesting observation but I don't see what it has to do with whether or not Gunn was critiquing Palestine/Islam

>>149398120
Conssesion?

>>149398181
It’s because Gunn like the other guy said is a classical liberal who thinks you should put your roots down if they conflict with the “American ideal”.

>>149387046 (OP)
Well isn't that funny.

>>149397303
>He's just a man
Fuck that gay subverted expectations bullshit, he's a paragon that makes superman the paragon he is, anything that betrays that only muddles the character.

>>149398297
OK snydertard