Was bringing Jason Todd back from the death the biggest mistake DC made narratively?

They wasted the only true comic book death for one storyline that wasn't even that good and then spent 20 years doing nothing with the character.

Between Jason and Bucky I don't know which was more retarded

>>149428246 (OP)
The real question: is jason todd red x

>>149428256
No one cared about the Bucky death

>>149428256
Captain America was the only person that gave a single fuck that Bucky died.

>>149428344
wrong.

>>149428246 (OP)
that isn't the only true one, and it served little real narrative purpose and was largely redundant (batman doesn't need additional excuses to brood when he was already doing that constantly beforehand, and it didn't stop him having sidekicks).

>>149428375
It wasn’t even part of canon. It was a retcon introduced in the 60s

>>149428467
I think it makes it more impactful if there is one narrative consequence of Batman fucking up to give the reader the illusion that you aren't just reading glorified Scooby Doo comics. I also don't like the fact that in a meta way, "Batman's Greatest Failure" went from him letting a kid die under his watch to the kid being kind of a jerk

>>149428246 (OP)
That's kind of the problem with tertiary Gotham characters, they just start hanging around Bruce's house with nothing to do.

>>149428246 (OP)
As if people care about Jason’s death

>>149428246 (OP)
It was 20 irl years.

>>149428246 (OP)
It always blows my mind that he's been back longer than he was gone.

The circumstances of Jason’s death had to be heavily reframed to even work dramatically
Instead of a fairly normal hero with a few examples of impulsive actions who got tricked by his mother, he got framed a a reckless, doomed case. And the whole ambassador Joker thinks is just glazed over

>>149428246 (OP)
No. It was stupid but when you have shit like Identity Crisis or Cry for Justice bringing back an extra Robin is hardly as galling.

>>149428246 (OP)
>Was bringing Jason Todd back from the death the biggest mistake DC made narratively
No. Having Jason Todd come back and be part of the Bat family was the biggest mistake DC made narratively. Having him come back as a villain to lift a mirror to Batman's moral ethos and to challenge it using a character who arguebly suffered the most dire of consequences due to it is a perfect setup, doubly so with the providence of him being the most infamous of Batman's Robins in his entire publication history. A scorned Robin turned Punisher, how is that not an absolutely kino concept? But they took that idea and squandered it and making him go from a Punisher to almost a Vegata or redeemed Shadow the Hedgehog who gets angsty when the Bat family decides to not kill the Joker for the 127th time as some form of narrative tension.

>>149428246 (OP)
no having jason todd come back as a villain wanting revenge wasn't that bad of an idea, if he ended up dying after that story and was never showed again.
the bigger misstake was uncrippling Babs

>>149429564
>the bigger misstake was uncrippling Babs
Nah, this one made sense, because Oracle is very much a one-trick pony. And around 2010, nobody had any idea what to do with her.
And fast forward to 2025, and DC still has no idea what to do with her, because Oracle is so superfluous as a concept.

>>149429676
I find it kind of funny that Oracle was kind of the prototype for the "girl/guy on the headset," that every one of Arrowverse shows ended up having.

>>149429564
>the bigger misstake was uncrippling Babs
and to do it in such a cheap "oh she had experimental surgery and it's all good now" way too lmao, Babs as Batgirl was fine but Oracle is where she really shines, and really she lacks the martial arts skills to be a crimefighting vigilante. both Babs' injury and Jason's death should be reminders of the threats Bruce faces every day in his crusade, and reversing them so cheaply is just stupid

>>149430072
Puckett, pls.

>>149429676
Oracle was a very unique character in a role only she filled and Babsgirl is just one of the zillions of rank and file batbaby sidekicks.Babsgirl is the superfluous character.

>>149430130
[Oracle was a very unique character in a role only she filled
She was literally Batman's secretary/mission control. She was about as unique as Pepper Potts was for Iron Man.

>>149430155
She was the leader of the entire superhero community.

>>149430333
Please. It's only Simone who wanted to give her any meaning. In other stories, she was just Batman's "girl on the phone". And she was so fucking important, her presence was almost non-existant around Final Crisis.

>>149430365
She had far more appearances outside of Batman comics than in, being a major member in the Suicide Squad, the Justice League, and leading her own team. Her role decreased because of editorial interference by sour old men who wanted things to be like their childhoods. She immediately outgrew Batman as Oracle and any appearances she had in Batman comics were secondary to her own superhero career. Oracle was never a sidekick.

>>149430382
>being a major member in the Suicide Squad
For like, three issues and then got booted.
>the Justice League
Again, as Batman's mission control.
>and leading her own team.
Yeah, Birds of Prey and eventually Simone hit the wall and started focusing more on Dinah instead.
And as much as she kept whining that she's not Batman's sidekick, she always kept coming back to being Batman's sidekick. But that was almost 15 years ago.
Nowadays, she's just a joke that DC has no idea what to do with, because nobody fucking needs Oracle anymore. Especially since she's getting replaced with Alfred AI in the post Hush2 Batman relaunch.

>>149428246 (OP)
Yes if by that you mean they spent 20 years on damage control and having every character hammers in he was a bad apple. To the point of running their narrative into the ground. Batman failing to save what is now a mini Red Hood from dying is not a tragedy. Nothing sad about that. "hurt people, hurt people" is one more thing tahat help to highlight your heroes are fatalistic assholes who can't do shit about anything.

>>149429543
>the whole ambassador Joker thinks is just glazed over
So is Bruce killing Joker's goons and watching Joker explode in a helicpter thinking "he'd be back" by the end of Ditf. You never heard of that. It's like DCfags think the story wrap up with Superman telling Batman he can't kill and Batman winning the day as usual once he calm down. It doesn't.

>>149428246 (OP)
>They wasted the only true comic book death
The only true comic book deaths are backstory characters like the Waynes, Krypto, or Uncle Ben.
Even when those characters are brought back through time travel or whatever, they're always inevitably sent back.
Acting like characters like Jason, Bucky, or Gwen Stacy were somehow permanent is silly, you should know that by now.

>>149428246 (OP)
>They wasted the only true comic book death
The only true comic book deaths are backstory characters like the Waynes, Krypton, or Uncle Ben.
Even when those characters are brought back through time travel or whatever, they're always inevitably sent back.
Acting like characters like Jason, Bucky, or Gwen Stacy were somehow permanent is silly, you should know that by now.

>>149430631
>The only true comic book deaths are backstory characters like the Waynes, Krypton, or Uncle Ben.
You do realize we were a step away from permanently bringing back Thomas Wayne in King's run?
Nothing is sacred in comicbooks after all

>>149428553
It's because the Batoffice is too greedy, the internal culture there is notoriously fucked with an arcane kind of tangled cult logic around Batman himself and his associated characters that is notoriously selectively contradictory and deranged.

Letting any of them leave Gotham or letting them have stable arcs risks a repeat of when Nightwing was nearly spun off to his own office, costing them control of some of their toys and running the risk of making Bruce "look bad" or "old".

Jason in particular is a whipping boy because the natural progression of his arc involves either killing the Joker, which is never going to happen, or him accepting that Bruce can't do what he wants because Bruce is legitimately insane and can't afford to cross that line and he needs to respect and understand that it doesn't mean he didn't love him as a son or care, and Bruce admitting that his way isn't the only or always best way to do things and that others do lack his psychological flaws that make it so he wouldn't be able to stop, and reconcile and respect eachother fully again rather than this kind of awkward ignoring of the issue.

But that will never happen either because it's Bruce's mental problems being played as a legitimate flaw instead of another way he's badass or as a reason for him to brood and implies he's less than perfect in a way that actually impacts his effectiveness as Batman that can't be plastered over. Ergo endless BatSchizo episodes where the writers and editors, through Bruce, wig the fuck out and the universe bends as much as it needs to for whatever insane, often hypocritical bullshit that occurs to leave Batman in the right and destroy the problem's validity from a narrative standpoint.

Azrael got hit with one back in the day too where objectively the worst thing he did was strangle Tim, the guy that basically everyone on the Batfamily has brutalized at some point outside of some of the queers and the black ones.

>>149428331
>no

>>149428246 (OP)
>the only true comic book death
There is nothing "true" about comic books, anything and everything will be dragged kicking and screaming onto paper at some point no matter how sacred you think it is. Jason's death? He got better and isn't even angry at Bruce anymore. Gwen Stacy? She's a Spider-Man variant now. Barry? He got better from Flashing himself out of existence for a few decades. Nothing matters because it's not a coherent story made by someone with a vision, it's a set of characters and story beats used by more people than an onlyfans slut.

>>149430671
That's why I stopped giving a fuck about cape comicbooks at some point. There is nothing creative about them, when even your most original and creative story will be squashed by the editorial due to the status quo. And you know we'll never get any resolution to anything.

>>149430130
Both are superfluous.
> glorified secretary and batcomputer
> bootleg Robin and derivative Batman with boobs
Both role can be filled better by anyone or anything. If the batgirls stealth generals on /co/ are any indication, it's just a matter of what you fetishize more between a crippled nerd with glasses or a costume.

>>149430687
> bootleg Robin and derivative Batman with boobs
That can be applied to all Batgirls, to be honest. Yes, that includes Cassandra Cain, who is probably the least interesting Batgirl once you remove her kung fu autist gimmick.
>tfw her new run was taken over by Shiva of all people.

Under the Hood was a good story once Winick got to rewrite it for the adaptation. But he should have died again at the end, letting him live was the mistake.
There is no "true comic book death" though, that's naive.

>>149430712
>all batgirls
Yes?
>nerd with glass
>asian
>blond
>ginger
>autist
>tomboy
>pregnant teen
>costume
It's just matter of what you fetishize more and what kinks the femme fatales in Batman or the Robin can't cover for you. They're more relevant to coomers than to Batman mythos for it. Babs only stay afloat because she is Jim's daughter and playing doctor with Dick. Steph was tied by the hip with Tim who is not the super-star he used to be and gay. Cass is only getting a boost now because a movie director is maybe planning to use or reference her.
>>149430883
>good
It's a different mess with even less nuances than the og.

>>149431065
>Cass is only getting a boost now because a movie director is maybe planning to use or reference her.
God, I hope not, because she's as interesting as a potted plant.

>>149431065
Any nuance you saw was imagined. Winick intended Jason Todd as a villain, not an antihero, or someone "with a good point."

>>149428246 (OP)
No, it’s not his fault that writers are shit these days. He’s a badass character, and should have stayed a villain, or anti-villain. But they turned him into a pussy ass jobber instead

It's objectively the new 52. Remember when you could just pick up the new Batman issue to keep up to date on the canon that was just titled "Batman"? The comic that had been running for 70 years without anyone complaining?

>>149431821
New 52 Batman was one of DC's best selling titles. And there were a lot of issues with just where Earth Two ended and where Earth One began, and just what exactly was carried over from Earth One to post-crisis and what was modified and retconned yet again with Zero Hour and other issues over the years since then. Ultimately doesn't matter.

This thread is just Damn DilDo, Quesada and Waid the faggot samefagging himself

>>149429558
>A scorned Robin turned Punisher, how is that not an absolutely kino concept?
Because we already have the Punisher, and DC already had their own Punisher, and making Jason into the Punisher washes away his more interesting aspects.

>>149432486
Meds, now

>>149430639
Flashpoint Batman most definitely doesn't count lmao, he's basically a completely different character and was sent back to his timeline/dimension/whatever at the end.
Also, when the Waynes where actually brought back for a story in Urban Legends, they were sent back to die at the end.
I'd be willing to count Spider-Gwen more since she's closer to her original than Flashpoint Thomas.

>>149428246 (OP)
If he stayed a villain it would've been better, but him forgiving Bruce makes the character pointless

>>149433934
Bruce didn't even do anything wrong. Jason got himself killed running off on his own and disobeying his orders.

>>149434475
Jason was pissed that Batman didn't kill the Joker, not that he failed to protect him

>>149434556
And then he preceded to never actually kill the Joker himself because he can't ever succeed at that goal for meta-reasons. Getting mad at someone for not doing what you yourself can't even do is just pathetic.

>>149434679
Not for a lack of trying admittedly, but that's my point, that keeping him around afterwards just makes the entire character look stupid

>>149434475
Hey Judd, that’s not why Jason got killed, you dumb faggot.

>>149435102
Jason went off to the middle east on his own even though he was grounded. Then when Bruce agreed to help him find his mom while dealing with the Joker he told him to stay put and just watch the building, not go in it. He went in it anyway.

>>149428246 (OP)
>Was bringing Jason Todd back from the death the biggest mistake DC made narratively?

No, creating Damian was. A Robin that's blood related to Bruce automatically outranks every other possible Robin and ruins the whole "billionaire deals with the trauma of losing his family by gathering a surrogate family around himself" angle.

>>149435299
Damian Derangement Syndrome is real

>>149431318
I said "even less nuances" and mentioned no good point or anti-hero.
>>149435242
Yeah. Bruce is stupid. A kid run away from him to seek the company of a stranger and when he finds him, he tell the kid to wait before fucking off. Like, what did that moron expect? This whole goose chase started because Bruce was avoiding Jason after Garzona.

>>149435922
There was nothing he could have done in that situation to prevent it, Jason was deadset on doing anything he wanted.

>>149435242
Jason’s mom killed Jason, dumbass. Jason could have taken on those thugs had his mom not sold him out. That’s literally the irony of her character.

>>149436059
Jason put himself into the situation that got him killed and Batman warned him not to get into it.

>>149428246 (OP)
Biggest mistake was not sticking to Hal Jordan Parallax.
He was DC's Magneto, a justified villain with the power to back it up

>>149436131
Character assassination, that's what it was.

>>149436131
>He was DC's Magneto
Was Magneto originally a hero?
I'm genuinely asking, I'm not a Marvel guy, I only know he's a jewish mutant, was in a concentration camp or something, and is now kinda pushing for mutant supremacy or something.

>>149436204
No and he's still not, despite what writers think, that faggot has been a psychopath from day one and just keeps trying it. Failure to make him one while pretending he is has been a consistent problem for decades

>>149436096
Batman didn’t warn him about his mother because nobody saw that coming. Batman never even found out, you troon.

>>149428246 (OP)
people in general care more about the idea of Red Hood than him being a dead Robin
maybe it was wasted afterwards but it was a cool idea

>>149436551
And that’s why he’ll never get a good run. The Red Hood shit is what ruined him.

>>149436131
>Magneto, a justified
kek

>>149428331
it'd make no sense
the Robin in the show is very clearly Dick
Red X is more likely Grant Wilson

>>149436131
Emerald Twilight was a really lousy last minute editorially-plotted story, it wasn't worth preserving.
>>149436518
Batman didn't need to know the specifics, just that it was too dangerous to go alone, and he was right.

>>149436518
He told Jason to stay put, he did not, and died.

>>149437025
But Batman wouldn’t have expected that Jason’s own mother would do him in.l like that. What Jason did is no different than how Tim and Dick acted out before.

>>149437000
Except he does dumbass, that’s his thing, he always plans head because he’s Batman.

>>149436014
Except he literally could have. All of this transpired because of Bruce’s inability to realize that maybe grounding your son and teammate, after he came across the aftermath of a rape then the suicide of said rape victim, without providing any support would fuck him over.

>>149437278
Not really. Jason ignored everything Batman said and flew off into a sketchy country with no backup and no one knowing where he was. Dick was never that retarded till the modern age retcons started.

>>149437299
He wasn't the batwanking man with a million contingency plans in the 80s. A year later DC published a story where the inmates took over Arkham Asylum and what does he do, he walks in the front door and Joker slaps him on the ass.
>>149437321
Without engaging in physical child abuse, no he couldn't.

>>149437361
>>149437419
>Dick was never that retarded till the modern age retcons started.
Except he was. Dick got captured many times and could have gotten killed. But would it have been his fault? According to you faggots, and not the guy would pull the trigger.

>>149437485
No one says Joker is blameless. Just that it's not Batman's fault.

>>149437696
Nobody is saying Bruce got Jason murdered. What fault Bruce does have is that he failed Jason as a father.

>>149437748
Jason was his ward, not an adopted son. A temporary caretaker until he became an adult or found a relative to stay with.

>>149437767
You got your Robins confused.

>>149437781
Ward. Not son.

>>149428246 (OP)
>and then spent 20 years doing nothing with the character.
sounds like every single comic book character ever.

>>149437908
Read Batman #441 (1989), Tim literally says Bruce adopted Jason.

>>149437986
Here's a screenshot. They didn't bring it up until 1989 in A Lonely Place of Dying.

>>149438107
He was being imprecise, colloquial. And ultimately wrong. Bruce never adopted Jason.

>>149438300
More like subsequent writers got it wrong because Bruce did indeed adopt Jason.

>>149438455
That happened in Titans, which wasn't part of the bat-line edited by O'Neil. Wolfman kept getting it wrong, it's an easy thing to get mixed up about.

>>149438523
Except ALPOD was literally edited by O'Neil himself. He probably saw what Wolfman did in New Titans #55 and thought 'ooh that's some juicy stuff' and let him bring it over in ALPOD. Meanwhile, what your source is Gotham Knights #42 which is the post-O'Neil era.

Even a classic "ward" was "adopted" the distinction was around if the kid was considered your heir or not. You're legally responsible for them and you're their formal legal parent but they don't automatically rank for inheritance if you die. >>149437485
Show me where Dick hopped a flight to somalia or wherever to get assraped by terrorists, then.

>>149438656
>Show me where Dick hopped a flight to somalia or wherever to get assraped by terrorists, then.
Literally the first appearance of the Joker where Dick he was investigating a spooky abandoned house only to get knocked out cold and presumably raped by Joker.

>>149438645
He slipped up and let it slide because it was just some dumb kid who said it. No other writers referred to him as a son before or since.

>>149439144
I accept your sad concession. lol

>>149439227
How is that a concession? You have this weird head canon based on a single writer's incorrect interpretation that no one else ever acknowledged.

>>149439249
Bruce said it, Tim said it, and clearly Dick said as well if he was upset that Jason got adopted and not him. O'Neil thought it was pretty interesting so he also had it brought up on the arc following Jason's death. The only people who had it wrong were the nobodies hired after O'Neil but DC corrected that.

>>149428246 (OP)
Batman lost pretty much all steam by the 2000s.
Should have retired him and his legacy with Morrison's run.

>>149441259
I disagree

>>149436014
He could and all attempts at washing Bruce's hands of responsability with Jason are mute when in light of his original run because 1) Jason is Robin because Bruce willed it and he had fucking selfish reasons for it. 2) Starlin run is heavy on "Robin is child endangerement" and "don't bring a child into this". He hated that Batman was accomplice to that and hated the concept of Robin for it. That's why Jason only deal with munbane violence cases and a powerless justice. Something other Robins never had to deal with because their writers have a different agenda.
>>149437419
What nonsense is that? Providing emotional support and acting as a responsible adult is the opposite of child abuse. Starlin Batman completely fails at that.

>>149438455
Heh, it's very ugly history for DC and I find that more fascinating than anything they shit out. Jason status as a ward or son started vague and it keeps flip-flopping to this day. Jason demonization started after DitF, and once Tim the ultimate Robin TM got adopted or Damian the blood son TM came in, being best son really became adjacent to being the best robin. As the bad robin, Jason was written off as not making it into the family to lessen his importance and relationship with Bruce. like here>>149438300

>>149429543
I'm just imagining that scene in Under the Hood where Jensen Ackles is all screaming: "WHY!? Why didn't you KILL HIM!?" and Batman's like: "It's complicated, Jason. He's the Iranian diplomat."

>>149429558
It's not that the concept isn't cool, but it just can't work long term. If there was a Punisher type character going around Batman would stop him, and if that Punisher character hadad crazy skills he learned from Batman himself then he would be his number 1 priority. The only way it would work is if it was a go down in flames run that ended in Jason dying again. Also he kind of just turns into Azrael at that point.

>>149430333
So why isn't Batgirl the leader of the entire superhero community? She doesn't have to be in a wheelchair to do that.

Because it's dumb, that's why

>>149430600
And this is the problem with Jason and Oracle. They turn into edgy shit that just make Batman look like a dumbass. Keeping Dick as Robin and Babs as Batgirl solves this problem entirely.

>>149442919
This

>>149432302
Didn't Batman wind up in some omnipotent orb or something in that one?

>>149443449
>is if it was a go down in flames run that ended in Jason dying again
UtRH? Except RH become popular so they brought him back, again.

>>149439831
Retcons work when a writer makes a change and then other writers acknowledge that change. Jason was not written as Bruce's son when he was actually alive and no one wrote him as such after O'Neil fired Wolfman (which Alan Grant revealed here https://web.archive.org/web/20070510002531/https://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/01/batman-alan-grant-norm-breyfogle-speak.html). That was an aberration, a mistake. It's possible if you go digging through the old letters sections O'Neil would even acknowledge it as such.
>>149442919
Batman had already forbid him from being Robin at the very beginning of the story. Jason ignored that and went off on that middle east adventure on his own. What could he possibly do to stop him other than beating him unconsciousness and tying/locking him up?

>>149428246 (OP)
The real mistake was not letting Judd Winick keep writing him and fully explore what the character could be.

>>149443781
Lmao, dude literally losing his mind. Nope, if Denny thought it wasn’t a good idea, it wouldn’t have let it happen in the first.
>>149443813
The real mistake was letting Judd Winick even get his hands on the character. He’s a retard like >>149443781 who also thought Jason got himself killed despite it being his mother and Joker who killed him.

>>149444012
Nah, Winick actually nailed it. His point was that being a vigilante means taking risks, and Jason accepted that the moment he put on the mask. If he never chose this life, none of it would’ve happened.

>>149441259
They should have kept the Morrison era status quo on the new Earth 2 and done a Year 5 Waid's World's Finest style reset for the New 52.

>>149444066
Winick was dumb enough to think Hush was a good story and took the fake Jason to heart, despite that being a ploy to slow down Batman. Under The Hood should have been the Green Lantern: Rebirth moment for the character, instead it pretty much sealed his fate, dooming him to twenty years of mediocrity. It doesn’t address the rape/suicide victim that literally lead to Jason’s faith in justice being eroded. Instead it focuses on the spectacle of Jason being a Ultimate Marvel transplant.

>>149443449
Make him equal to Batman. Why should that Gary Stue be able to beat anyone he wants? Have him humble the Bat, and let him actually kill joker

>>149444012
>Nope, if Denny thought it wasn’t a good idea, it wouldn’t have let it happen in the first.
Denny backpedaled on a lot of decisions he initially approved. Batman fighting Joe Chill in Year Two? Retconned. Batman having a kid in Son of the Demon? Retconned. Batman being a public figure? Retconned. DC Comics was never run as a tight ship.

>>149444509
But not this one.

>>149444619
If this were true you'd be able to post a comic from the 90s not written by Wolfman that referred to Jason as Bruce's adopted son.

>>149444135
I’m so tired of this loop, anon. Can we just talk about the upcoming series or something else?

>>149444655
Why would I? Denny already said it was okay. Plus any mention of Jason would decline heavily onward from that point on because Denny didn’t want readers to want him back.

>>149444681
It’s has everything all the “fans” have been wanting for years: Jason out of Gotham, no Batfam. It’s definitely not going to be good tho.

>>149444695
>Denny already said it was okay.
No he didn't.
>Plus any mention of Jason would decline heavily onward from that point on because Denny didn’t want readers to want him back.
"The Robin who died" was brought up quite a bit. No one forgot Jason. "Bringing him back" was never on the table, he made it quite clear he'd consider it a "sleazy stunt" regardless of what anyone wanted.

>>149444726
Of course it’s not going to be good. The writer literally said he’s never read any of Jason’s comics and only knows the character through a friend. I have no idea what DC was thinking letting him write the character.

>>149444763
>No he didn't.
He literally did anon.
>"The Robin who died" was brought up quite a bit.
Only in mention, and most of the time it was show that it’s Jason’s fault he got murdered, not Bruce’s.
>No one forgot Jason. "Bringing him back" was never on the table, he made it quite clear he'd consider it a "sleazy stunt" regardless of what anyone wanted.
It was always going to be sleazy to begin with. Denny O’Neil’s era of Batman was hella sleazy what with Bruce and Jason going after rapists and murderers, TKJ, ADITF, but we loved that.

>>149444912
>He literally did anon.
He fired the guy who wrote it. He realized his mistake and corrected it as soon as he could.

>>149444177
Because they're not going to kill the Joker permanently. we all know this. Even if Jason caps him he'll come back as a revenant, demon, or government experiment before eventually becoming a normal human again.

>>149445003
He corrected… but not actually correcting it.

>>149445189
By firing the guy and making sure everyone from that point forward referred to Jason as Bruce's ward and not his son.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110723172634/https://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/01/batman-alan-grant-norm-breyfogle-speak.html

Why did Denny treat his writers like trash? I thought he was nice.

>>149445331
We’ve already been through this, he didn’t, he basically buried Jason afterwards because he wasn’t needed unless they needed to shit on him.

>>149445359
Talking nonsense.

>Jason Todd
>Tod = Death in German

He had it coming.

>>149430406
It's important to keep in mind that the Batman office starting to do more with Oracle, and Birds of Prey becoming an ongoing book was all largely rooted in DC editorial pushback against just making Babs be Batgirl again in the comics to line up with the cartoons and the movies, and then they tried to turn Batgirl into a legacy title in the 2000s. Most of the pro-Oracle arguments tend to be disingenuous and rooted in waifuism for one of the legacies, usually the one with the fandom full of obsessive psychotics, not in genuine appreciation of Oracle.

>>149436204
No, his creators intended him to be a Literally Hitler kind of villain with no redeeming features, and he was like that for 20 years. The entire backstory of him being a Jewish Holocaust survivor was given to him in the 80s, allegedly just because the writer of Fantastic Four at the time really objected to the way Chris Claremont wrote Doom in a guest appearance in X-Men, so Claremont wanted his own noble antihero character, and turned Magneto into his own OC instead of just properly creating one.

>>149428246 (OP)
No, it was turning Harley Quinn into DC's Deadpool.

>>149445994
Wein and O'Neil were right about Babsgirl being stupid, but Cass was also a swing and a miss when it came to merchandise potential (which is the most important thing - it's why Wonder Woman is #3 in the trinity even though most people have never been interested in reading Wonder Woman comics) and Steph was also DOA in that regard.

>>149430647
>>149428246 (OP)
>the biggest mistake DC made narratively?
Just in the batwankdom, Casandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Damian Wayne, Duke Thomas and any of the other unnecessary side characters (e.g. Harper Row, Maps, etc.) that came with them, were bigger mistakes that confused and confabulated the stories, the mono-culture/normies, and generally.

>>149429558
Jason being a villain to Batman won't work long-term because Bruce should do his hardest to save and help him out. After all, the reason he doesn't kill his enemies is because he believes in second chances and Jason's death was his fault to begin with.

>>149446699
Babs is lucky in that they decided to make Casslook entirely different from her (because thye hated Babsgirl), and ended up with a character who's fucking unmarketable to kids and unappealing to all but the initiated comic fanbase and a handful of people who find the all black look hot.
If it was a Jason or Tim situation where in 1999 we got a new Batgirl who was a white redhead who kept the visual the same for merchandise? It would be much harder to justify Babs. But they never tried that, closed was Misfit and by having powers she was obviously never going to work as a bat character. And by then it was too late anyway.

>>149428246 (OP)
The problem is the only way to make Jason a compelling character is by making him correct. Have him prove to Batman that killing is sometimes right under certain circumstances when its someone like Joker.
But for obvious reasons DC comics is never going to do that.