Thread 149452121

>"The only way to end the cold war without nuclear annihilation is to launch a giant squid into NYC and kill millions of people"
>In reality the cold war ended without a giant squid or nuclear war

Is he the most retarded comic book character of all time? The smartest man in the world couldn't come up with any other solution other than giant squid thing?

>>149452121 (OP)
Moore is the most overrated hack in any medium ever

>>149452223
I like elements of Watchmen, but this "moral problem" at the end kills the entire thing for me. How can you pretend there's any sort of "Did he do the right thing?" when there were other options that weren't genocide.

>>149452121 (OP)
In reality the cold war didn't get as bad as it did in the comic. They make this abundantly clear.

>>149452242
The moral isn't about if he did the right thing. They series very bluntly states he didn't. The moral question is if it was better to tell the world the truth. Good you're dumb.

>>149452293
In reality we didn't have a blue God thing that could destroy all nuclear weapons in the world

>>149452313
You know the funny thing about nukes? THEY CAN MAKE MORE. And yes Dr M could probably render all the radioactive material on earth but that doesn't change human nature. That's the issue. If we can't nuke each other we'd just go back to shooting and stabbing. You're an idiot.

>>149452242
What other options?

>>149452360
The most intelligent man in the world couldn't use his intelligence and wealth and influence to broker peace? You know, like we did in real life?

>>149452348
The argument about "human nature" is rendered obsolete by the fact that in real life humans agreed to not destroy each other with nuclear weapons or an all out war following WWII. And if you're going to argue again that the situation isn't like it was in real life then this is just a dogshit comic not worth discussing

The Moorespammer is back >>149452187

>>149452121 (OP)

The comic was made while there was still a cold war. It show the constant fear and gloom that people lived through it.

And it wasn't a giant squid, it was a force from beyond this world that could attack at any moment (besides the explosion on NYC, there was a psychic attack.)

So the plan was basically to unite the world against a common enemy that could attack at anytime (which was what I though made the movie stupid with their change to been Dr. Manhattan. )

In Moore's defense, the story was conceptualized and largely written at a time when the Cold War seemed like it could still go hot at any time - with the escalation of US-Soviet tensions during the proxy war in Afghanistan in 1984 being probably the closest we'd come to nuclear war since the Cuban Missile Crisis.

No one in the West, least of all Moore, could have foreseen that a year later a nuclear disaster would cripple the Soviet Union and set off a wave of independence movements and uprising in the Caucuses and Baltic republics that would lead to its dissolution just a few years after.

>>149452121 (OP)
In reality there was no blue demi-god allied with the United States.
This is the quintessential based retard argument.

>>149452424
Very good you figured out that comics are both fictional and allegorical. Now if you could actually learn things about history and the context of when this was made and we didn't double pinky promise to not annihilate each other you might actually understand the assignment.

>>149452479
Why are so many retards these days unable to process that things don't happen in their own time.

>>149452685
If the US had Dr Manhattan in real life there would've been no communist governments in less than a year, but the story just uses him when he's convenient for the plot

>>149452702
I don't subscribe to the idea that a comic that urges other comic book writers to think through their implications of what superheroes would actually be like in real life can use the excuse of "it's fiction" when something doesn't make sense

>>149452755
Things only "don't make sense" because you're intentionally being stupid.

>>149452121 (OP)
People keep using alternative universe bullshit but it is just "everything went right for Republicans".

Death of the Author is the worst thing to happen in fiction. We are forced to take the "peer into alternate universe" analysis where we have to pretend that everything isn't just caused by the writer. How many stories have objectively evil Leftist characters that we are obviously supposed to sympathize with then normalfags pretend that it was critical of the ideas because it was coming from the badguys.

>>149452785
Can you explain how it makes sense that the "smartest man in the world", who had the powers of a God that could do anything on his side, came up with the most retarded scheme possible as the solution for a conflict that would fizzle out in real life? Other than Watchmen is just a stupid comic book like all other comic books, which makes Alan Moore a hypocritical writer.

The movie frames it another way, "the world's punishment for flirting with world war 3"

>>149452937
>who had the powers of a God that could do anything on his side

Did you even read the comic? Dr. Manhattan was already distancing himself from humanity and only held in place by young pussy by the time Veidt came into the picture. When the events were finally coming into fruition, Dr. Manhattan just didn't care for humanity at all. Veidt knew that he was a wildcard and is why he took it off the board. He couldn't use him directly, so he got rid of him.

>>149452396
He had great power, but not that kind of power. The situation was very precarious because of the existence of Doctor Manhattan, the flake with god-like power. Ozymandias could not hope to influence or manipulate Nixon or Gorbachev or Manhattan in good time, and he was deep down too much of a megalomaniac to share power and responsibility. So he came up with something that was completely third-party, something he could tie up neatly at the end, and that ended up being the external threat ploy that was common in a lot of early Cold War-era media.
>>149452899
>objectively evil Leftist characters that we are obviously supposed to sympathize with
I hope you're not referring to Ozymandias.

>>149452121 (OP)
>giant squid
I was wondering his contingency for when that thing gets DNA tested and is discovered to have very earthly origins

>>149453207
I personally was wondering what his plan was for when 20 years pass and no other alien shows up, unless he plans to constantly launch them and kill millions of people every couple of years

>>149452121 (OP)
Yes but IRL cold war didn't have a blue penis casting a shadow over it

>>149453271
I said it earlier in the thread, it's nothing but "don't think about it" writing that the Soviet Union even exists when the US government has Dr Manhattan on their side who could've dismantled the entire thing in a day's work. For a comic that urges other writers to think about implications it sure glosses over this

>>149453235
That's what Dr. Manhattan answers Veidt at the end.

>>149453271
Never erect, though

I will always contend that Moore's biggest failing with the squid is thinking that humanity would react to an external common threat even for a moment.

>>149453389
Unite against an external common threat even*

>>149453235
This was actually one fairly clever thing the HBO show did- he set it up so baby squids periodically be teleported and rain down on random places, implying that they were still breaching into our dimension but couldn't successfully do it dangerously yet.
They also explained that the squid's carcass dissolved before it could be studied.

>>149452121 (OP)
> Is he the most retarded comic book character of all time?

Wow anon. You sure are smart after the fact. I bet you didn't vax 3 or more times!

>>149453206
>I hope you're not referring to Ozymandias.
It literally doesn't matter how objectively evil that they are. As long as the narrative paints them as having a point, it moves the needle leftward.

>>149453235
>>149453207
He didn't have one. That was the point. That's the point of his name Ozymandias.

"I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

read a fucking book.

>>149452121 (OP)
Morrison (of all people) once pointed out that the biggest flaw in Watchmen is that Alan Moore is totally incapable of writing anyone who's smarter than himself.

>>149453459
So the smartest man in the world is not that smart, very good writing

>>149452223
He's definitely done some good stuff, but you're right that he's one of the most overrated writers of all time.

>>149453309
>>149452755
America wouldn't necessarily dismantle the USSR just because they had Manhattan, for the same reason they wouldn't just launch nuclear weapons from the beginning of the Cold War. It's just basic diplomacy. Even if Manhattan gives you the ability to do what you want, a country wouldn't necessarily do that(at least not a civil, functioning one)

>>149453389
>>149453403
Basic commercial airplanes going into basic tall buildings made the world stop and take notice.
An alien would fuck everyone's shit up.
I feel like a lot of people would never recover. Mass suicides and shit. A new culture of fear would be instated that would sour the peace.

>>149453476
Yes, stupid. The smartest man is still a man. Being smart doesn't protect you from flaws. He was driven by arrogance and ambition.

>>149453505
Lex Luthor could've created world peace, just saying

>>149453464
Morrison didn't get it either. He thinks The Killing Joke ended with Batman strangling Joker.

>>149453529
If he ever truly wanted to he would have a long time ago.

>>149452396
The point is they needed peace RIGHT now,Adrian took the most immediate action regardless of how severe it was.
Keep referring to the Gordian Knot imagery. The objective was to unloosen the knot. Alexander cut it. From a certain viewpoint the knot is untied, but not in the way it was asked to be. It presents itself as an untied rope. But it is not an untied rope but a damaged one to anyone who understands how it was untied. It is not the same as a rope that has been untied normally.
Similarly, the peace Adrian achieved is an immediate one, but not a true one.

>>149452223
>>149453479
He's underrated as a comic writer, overrated as a fiction writer.
Most comic readers don't get what the fuck he's doing.
But he's no genius or intellectual. Still just a very good comic book writer.

>>149453494
It divided the world quite a great deal honestly. "You're either with us or with the terrorists." There's a lot that could be said about that era, but to say that we were united would only be accurate for the first week or so after the event. At least to my memory. Things got pretty ugly after that and for a long time. Not sure if that sort of division ever really got better.

>>149453675
Things soured between the US and Russia very quickly after WW2 was over. In point of fact, it was precisely the topic of what to do with Germany itself that caused things to go south.

>>149453591
>Similarly, the peace Adrian achieved is an immediate one, but not a true one.
Which is a very mild criticism because true peace has never been achieved ever.

>>149453505
Wow the smartest man is written like a retard missing the most obvious shit because he's just human and therefore he makes mistakes. So fucking deep man truly no one will ever surpass Moore.

>>149453735
>Things soured between the US and Russia very quickly after WW2 was over

That's the point. A short term shared enemy brought us together but it didn't change what we really thought of each other. Ozy's plan did the same thing. Short term success that's doomed to blow up in our faces if we don't correct t he actual issue fast.

>>149453840
You really are just a petulant cunt.

Moore is a fucking hack and the only people who think otherwise are mouthbreathing retards who've never read anything but cape comic slop written for children with learning disabilities.

>>149453891
I think what annoys me about Watchmen is that Moore writes it as this supposedly biting critique of comic book authors for not realizing the worlds they are creating with their writing if it were to happen in reality, while also writing a story that's just as retarded and stupid as Superman.

>>149453914
>this supposedly biting critique of comic book authors for not realizing the worlds they are creating with their writing if it were to happen in reality,
Who is supposing this?

>>149453854
I'd argue it's been blowing up in our faces in slow motion for the past 70 years or so, but right now it's not really in slow motion anymore.
Really, the time bought back then was a one time deal. I don't think we could or will buy that kind of time again, no matter how short. At the risk of sounding like a doomer, I honestly think the amount of time that's available to be bought it much shorter now than it was back then, if at all. It's starting to look like now we can only kick the can down the road a fraction of the amount we used to.

Yet as I've said countless times before: I think Moore may have been optimistic in how much time Veidt's plan could realistically buy us, if any. In a lot of ways it could even have caused new issues to spring up that would divide us in new ways that might be as bad or worse.

>>149453997
Video essayists

>>149452121 (OP)
That was the point, I worry since others have highlighted this at least 5 times I've seen before so I'm probably adding a grain of sand to a mountain that goes ignored, still: Veidt is delusional because of his superiority complex. Eddie Blake got under his skin by pointing out he couldn't solve real conflicts, Veidt learned he wasn't exactly wrong once humanitarian efforts made little difference in the direction those in power were intent, so Veidt hyper focused on that smear in his view instead of taking in the full picture. Namely, what everyone else was doing.

Moore and Gibbons made a point to show the background cast of characters who seemed to have been indifferent and self-serving in isolation all trying to stop the fight between the two women to no benefit to themselves to illustrate despite the common person (at the time anyway) will lean towards peace and decency. No one needs big brains and kung fu for that.

So despite what others trying to swipe at Moore weekly believe: our world ending up how it did is not a mark against Watchmen, it solidifies its message. It fully illustrates how obsessed Veidt was with just proving himself right to Blake that his bloated psychotic scheme is shown destroying a natural resolution effort.

Him insisting he's not a villain before celebrating his genius in his isolated lair while mutilated bodies litter the street is supposed to make clear just how detached and deranged he is despite claiming, or believing, otherwise.
And there was no need for Veidt to come up with a solution at all, just help along existing good will, but he was compelled to be overly clever, to be mercilessly utilitarian, to be the sole cause of good because he is like most politicians. All promotion through common troubles, but no common sense solving any once they're in power.

>>149453891
https://youtube.com/shorts/C8h4CjwmAOA

>>149454010
>>149453649
I think what's interesting is that in real life, part of what caused issues after the initial unification after 9/11 was people realizing they were being sold a lie to enter war in a country that had nothing to do with the attacks and may not even have been an immediate threat.
But Moore does sow the seeds that something in inevitably going to disturb the peace soon.

>>149454065
>I think what's interesting is that in real life, part of what caused issues after the initial unification after 9/11 was people realizing they were being sold a lie to enter war in a country that had nothing to do with the attacks and may not even have been an immediate threat.
There's a rabbit hole if ever there was one, but not one strictly related to comics or cartoons.
But then - I am a fan of Watchmen, and I feel its use of allegory not terrible. Ultimately, if you're going to buy time, make sure it's for the right reason. If you have a plan but it needs time, then borrowing some makes sense.
Veidt did not have a plan to solve the issue. Only a plan to buy time to think of another plan, or for other people to try and come up with one. Veidt might have made more sense if he had something afterwards. But he didn't. He was as clueless to actually solve the cold war as anyone else.

>>149452121 (OP)
dont care, i still enjoyed it.

>>149454118
>Veidt did not have a plan to solve the issue. Only a plan to buy time to think of another plan, or for other people to try and come up with one. Veidt might have made more sense if he had something afterwards. But he didn't. He was as clueless to actually solve the cold war as anyone else.
Wasn't part of Veidt's plan also to facilitate feelings of international good will, globalism, and futurism by his products and advertisements?
The most on the nose one is how before the attack, Veidt's company makes "Nostalgia" before the attack, and "Millenium" after. Or the candy brand going from Meltdowns to Sunbursts(space theming)
One thing I don't think people talk about is that the solution to the problem Veidt solves is a problem largely agitated by Veidt in the first place. Which I can see as him feeding a cold as part of trying to get rid of it. even stuff like the candy is predictive programming to think a nuclear war is imminent, and needed a solution.
(on that note, I remembered that one little detail I like about the movie is how the Comedian seems to actually enjoy the Nostalgia commercial a bit, before slipping into a sort of unease right before he's attacked. Even he's not immune to Nostalgia, and at this point he's well aware of Veidt's plans and it served as grim foreshadowing. )

>>149454319
weirdly enough it is interesting how this paralleled the real-world turn towards futurist optimism in art and advertising after the fall of the Union.

>>149452121 (OP)
Reagan would've pushed for a giant squid if the technology had been available.

>>149454319
>Wasn't part of Veidt's plan also to facilitate feelings of international good will, globalism, and futurism by his products and advertisements?
I'm not sure if that's much of a plan unto itself. Or sufficient anyway. Encouraging people to have good vibes is laudable (or attempting to market and socially engineer social cohesion) - But doesn't solve the actual technical aspects of the issue.

>>149454044
And then he wrote Top 10 where he put many of those ideas into place, and sort of predicted MHA's world with people using powers for work.
Actually this was probably some years after Top 10.

You guys also forget that this is exactly the sort of End Result you'd see from a Golden Age story. Giant alien squid pops up and ends the "Cold War" "Aliens Attack!"

>>149452121 (OP)
In reality a semi-omnipotent blue man wouldn't warn us and disarm a huge fraction of their arsenal in the event of a launch, this is such a retarded critique. Its a comic book you autist

>>149454694
A comic book about what a superheroes would be like in a more realistic setting

>>149454522
I really need to reread Top 10

>>149452121 (OP)
It wasn't the only way, but it was the most likely way to work.

If you remember how the cold war actually ended, everyone in the world did a collective spittake upon finding out how badly the USSR had failed, and how well they were able to hide it. Hell, at the end, they weren't even able to launch their nukes, they had been bluffing for years and everyone fell for it.

>>149454519
Well there is an advertisement for a world accord too, which might be funded by him too. So there's promotions towards peace talks and global cooperation, and actual talks and agreements being had.

Did OP just spam a couple of Watchmen threads to try to get a conversation going?
This isn't the way, but I guess it's better than most threads.

>>149452121 (OP)
.... and your point is...???

>>149452121 (OP)
I wonder if that was the point, that despite his intelligence he was a complete moron thanks to the power madness.

>>149455831
I am discussing comic books on the comic book board, do I need a point?

>>149452655
People also forget that they didn't know how fucked things were in the Soviet Union like we do now. The Soviets won the intelligence war pretty hard, they just had zero way to act on it. We know now they were a paper tiger, but at the time people just saw a tiger.

>>149452396
But we didn’t just “broker peace” one day. The collapse of the USSR was a complex and long drawn affair and it certainly didn’t take place in a world where there was constant escalation of tensions and nuclear armament and the USA literally conquering and annexing Vietnam to itself. In the real world you had extensive and successful diplomatic efforts to get away from being at the brink of war, diplomatic deals to not keep building more nukes. The polar opposite of what was happening in Watchmen

>>149453309
>the US government has Dr Manhattan on their side who could've dismantled the entire thing in a day's work.

Except he couldn’t, you fucking moron. It’s even explicitly said in the comic that if there was a nuclear strike against the US Manhattan could not stop all the missiles. So any kind of attack against Russia directly would have rendered many parts of the US and its allies irradiated hellholes. Vietnam is not the same as attacking Russia directly. And after US turning it into the 51st state the USSR would obviously make it clear that any further military expansion via Manhattan against Soviet allies would be considered a direct attack against Russia itself

No matter how much /co/ wants to pretend to despise Moore and Watchmen, the rest of the Internet will always beat it.

>>149452121 (OP)
To be fair, Alan Moore made the comic before the Soviet Union collapsed.

It is obvious that Moore thought Soviet Russia was going to last forever and take over the world.

>>149456146
So did the entire world. You literally had stuff like Red Dawn depict Russians invading America in the 80s too.

>>149455964
They weren't a paper tiger, but and underfed tiger.

>>149456104
Far Sector????

>>149452242
He didn't commit genocide, just mass murder.
>>149452293
>The moral isn't about if he did the right thing. They series very bluntly states he didn't. The moral question is if it was better to tell the world the truth. Good you're dumb.
Also this

>>149456104
>144 total votes on an uncompleted survey on a random, unofficial page on twitter
please die

...I mean I figured that Rorschach's journal at the end of the book was gonna start thge collapse of Adrian's "peace".

>>149456687
It's Tumblr, actually.

Moore's a communist tard. Of course he thinks committing genocide is okay.

>>149452121 (OP)
The problem was in reality you didnt had a Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan never made Russia electing Gorbatschow and the Russian citizin were not that afraid of the US to accept the Russian goverment.

>>149452121 (OP)
This may come as a shock to you but the person who calls himself "the smartest man in the world" is a huge narcissist and once he comes up with an idea he simply assumes it's correct and dismisses everything else because he thinks he's the only real human capable of doing anything right.

>>149453494
You’d also have people trying to argue that we should negotiate with the squids.

>>149452121 (OP)
He's only the smartest man in the world in a world where the average IQ is 50, if you consider the rest of the comic

>>149452121 (OP)
The cold war going nuclear and causing human extinction was still a very real possibility when Moore was writing Watchmen.

Wasn't Nixon president for like 20 years?
Probably had something to do with not being like our reality very much at all

>>149456088
not him, but could you refresh my memory - why would he not be able to stop them all?

>>149460013
Because he isn’t God. He has limitations. It’s very concretely stated in the story that they’ve run the numbers and Manhattan could never stop all the ICBMs. He might theoretically stop most of them but the USA would still have multiple direct hits.

>>149452121 (OP)
>giant squid thing?
Can we focus on this for a moment because wasn't also pumped full of like psychic energy that when it exploded was going to send off a huge shockwave of psychic feelings of hate/anger/fear/disgust that was going to make most of the East Coast ultra susceptible to uniting and making peace with the rest of the world and prepare for more aliens?

>>149452121 (OP)
In reality we didn't have a naked blue man radically shifting the balance of power