Alright, after a quick break going to do a three issue storytime today.

Enjoy!

>>149518674
To answer your question anon, I'm gonna try to get to New Titans 130, Deathstroke 60 and Team Titans 23.

>>149542385 (OP)

>>149519723
Always ties back to one of those two chucklefucks. Honestly, I think as you touched on something really interesting with how Didio edits DC. As much as people credit him for experimental books etc, the dude in general seemed to be akin to Joe Q's sensibilities in Marvel that everything needed to streamlined.

>>149542433

>>149517077
Each their own. I don't exactly think that the romance works for their mainline counterparts and it feels way too much like the 03 fans thinking that they work well together when imho, Raven works with literally everyone else in the Pre-Titan Hunt Titan lineup

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>>149542815
Gonna need a bump soon or I won't be able to finish the storytime for today.

>>149542837

>>149542857

>>149542837
bumping for OP

>>149542875

>>149542896

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>>149542892
Cheers friend

>>149542939
First issue done. Two to go.

>>149542961

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>>149543097
Sorry for the delay, internet was acting up

>>149543113
And like a fucking idiot, I didn't attach a page

>>149543145

>>149543163

>>149543186

>>149542999
>Romeo Tanghal

Who the fuck is this?

>>149543206
It's the gooner page

>>149543231
The guy who inked most of the Perez stuff of the NTT and one of the underrated GOATs of comics.

>>149543282

>>149543306

>>149543349

>>149543366

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>>149543421

>>149543236
Back when the Titans trying to rape Donna was just normal creepy, not just creepy and pseudo-incestual.

bumping for OP

>>149543445

>>149543453
Hey the Greeks deities being creepy incestuous fuckers

>>149543487

>>149543461
Much appreciated, but yeah I kinda love that this whole arc makes Hyperion and Donna a tragic love story and not just supernatural rape

>>149543548

>>149543572

I am thinking about buying DC Finest: The Judas Contract. I don't want to collect the entire run like a loser, but I kind of want to read the best segments considering it is such a legendary run. Thoughts? I already have TPB NTT Vol 1. I don't think it was very good compared to what Wolfman was able to achieve later.

>>149543595

>>149543603
The early Wolfman stuff is him trying to figure out what makes the team work.

The Judas Contract is a good story, but there is a lot more to explore.

>>149543658

>>149543679

>>149543703

>>149543658
Thanks for the thoughts.

>>149543729

>>149543753

>>149543750
No problem. One big problem the Titans has is this cultural meme that post-Judas Contract the quality dipped and when Perez it went down considerably and that's not really not the case at all. While there is a quality drop post Perez dipp, Wolfman was still operating at a decent level, it's only when editorial tried to fix the Titans is when things became a trainwreck

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>>149544260
Second to last page,

>>149544277
And done. Hope you anons enjoyed and I'll be back soon. Cheers and have a lovely rest of your day.

>>149544293
Guess not, I didn't add the page lol

bumping for OP

Thanks, OP.

bumping to read

>>149542433
Yes. There being four generations with lots of interactions between them made the universe feel so big and alive but the Titans got fucked over by Didio's era favoritism.

Every other big DC team got a theme/mission statement/identity that has become synonymous with each team except for Dick's gen and that continues to this day, as Titans is basically the biggest DC/marvel team that writers and fans struggle to name their identity/theme beyond "they're friends/family" and "we like these characters and their run from 40 years ago". Though DC has now run into this problem in the past 5 years with Tim's gen, as they don't seem to want to "downgrade" them to Teen Titans again but the Young Justice team also lacks an identity.

>>149542984
I still don't get why DC hasn't used the Titans of Myth as Titans villains more often. They only had like 3-4 arcs total with the last being 20 years ago.

Top 100 all time run, easily.

>>149547081
Yeah. The big thing about the Titans in terms of themes is espionage and conspiracy. Their entire vibe especially in Wolfman's run while there is a focus on found family, the Titans are this collection of people caught in massive conspiracies etc.

>>149547594
> DC caring about Wonder Woman Lore

Not gonna happen. Best we're gonna get is King jerking off how she is the "girl of the team".

>>149549430

>>149549435

>>149549443
>>149548284
Something that is really underestimated about this run is what it actually was. As much as people talk (rightfully so) or Pre-Bendis Avengers being a collection of misfit toys being thrown together, that is very much the Wolfman Titans started as. These were characters who prior to Wolfman were kinda aimless and Wolfman made them interesting again

>>149549460

>>149549466

>>149549478

>>149549487

>>149549501

>>149549510

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>>149549528

>>149549535

George Pérez was the best

>>149549544

>>149549555

>>149549574
>>149549555
>>149549547
That he was. While Wolfman had a lot of other good artists working with him later, Perez is easily one of the greats. I think a lot of people really understimate his style and what it was. It was basically refining all the greats strengths and abandoning their weaknesses, which really worked with what Wolfman's style and sensabilities were which were refining common superhero archetypes and tropes.

>>149549590

>>149549604

>>149549616

>>149549629

>>149549657

>>149547081
Building on this, I think that Young Justice and Titans have two entirely different problems (both born from Didio's editorial.

Titans are fucked because of how they were treated post-Wolfman, that being a collection of sidekicks coming together whose development occurred alongside the Titans rather than within it. Best example of this is Nightwing who is treated as if he just ran off had a couple of adventures with the Titans etc, rather than growing into his own man within the Nightwing and something entirely different from Batman. Likewise, the Titans having their own place within DC and their own vibe, which was basically embracing the whole interconnected and maximalist nature of the DC universe, but that is ignored for "sidekick team".

Likewise, the Young Justice gen are fucked both because of how Didio, Johns and their sex pest mate treat them. See, prior to YJ, the teen team were treated very much as their own take on their aspect of the mythos with their own corner cut out. Although Connor was called Superboy, he had his own thing going on with Cadmus, as did Impulse and even Tim Drake/Cassie despite being obvious replacements for prior roles and characters.

Although each of them were connected to a larger superhero, they basically took a lot of the basic ideas and twisted them in a different direction.

Then along came Graduation Day then afterward Didio, Johns and the sex pest. Rather than embrace the unique aspects of these younger heroes, they tuned them into younger versions of their mentors.

Although this might get me some hate from the Jon and Damian fanboys (Trinity fans are CIA psyops), they represent the endgame of DC and its treatment of younger heroes and its own universe. No originality in the themes or embracing the strange nature of superheroes. Just make junior versions of each character and keeping the same boring, watered down themes with any "update" essentially being glorified edge/

>>149549689

>>149549697

>>149549590
minor thing but I love how much detail george always put into the backgrounds

>>149549708

>>149549716
Oh yeah, George was a godtier artist especially for this. He made the comics feel really dense. It's honestly a part of old comics I wish more people sorta remembered, especially looking at this era. Each issue felt like its own semi-complete story. Although there was always a "To be continued" they felt like a full episode of TV rather than just one chapter of an episode like a lot of modern comics feel now.

>>149549735

>>149549744

>>149547081
It's a little more complicated than that. The problem isn't with Dick's generation, it's with the Titans as a franchise. The iconic Teen Titans are beloved characters, but they haven't been teens since the 80s, and DC wants a teen team keeping the Teen Titans franchise alive. So there's two contrasting visions of what the modern Titans are supposed to be. Is it the continuing story of Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, and their friends, regardless of age? Or is it a team book for <Current Robin> where all the iconic Titans team members and villains are passed down like a legacy? They've gone back and forth on this every 5 years for the last 30 years. Occasionally they've tried a middle ground approach like the DEO kids in 2001 or Titans Academy in 2021. All they need is some consistency.

>>149549763

>>149549776

>>149549790

>>149549697
This rant might sound kinda hypocritical from a guy who fully admits to loving shit like Priest Deathstroke which could def be described as an edgy updates of the character and the cast. But I think there is a key difference between Priest's take and a lot of what Didio's updates were.

Priest fully understood the history, themes and implications of the character he was working with, intentional and unintentional. Although he went in a totally different direction from Wolfman, making Deathstroke a massive piece of shit rather than an honorable man, he was basing all his work in the prior history of the character, the themes, both intentional and unintentional of the character and understood what made Slade an interesting character (that while he was a massive asshole and a complete piece of shit, there were nuances to that, the same way that although Tony Soprano was a monster, he wasn't this caricature of a human being)

>>149549800
Fuck, forgot to add the image. I really am somewhat of a shit storytimer.

>>149549810

>>149549824

>>149549834

>>149549843

>>149549854


>>149549771
I mean.... I very much disagree with this. DC wants a teen team absolutely, but the Titans especially under Wolfman were never that. They were always a band of characters that DC had no idea of what to do anything with. Although younger, their vibe had always been these groups of people coming into their own and growing into their own.

Although Jurgens experimented with reducing the Titans to a teen brand, there was a reason that Teen Titans team got kicked to the curb relatively quickly because they were not the reason were interested in the Titans as a franchise. Likewise, there was a reason Young Justice thrived.

The biggest problem is very much down to editorial at the time, which wanted to streamline the concepts. Again, it's a reason that in contrast to the 80s and 90s, for better and worse, you had a lot of books that veered off the beaten path, nearly all the books can be linked back to the Justice League heroes especially in the 2000s and New 52.

The problem has been on the Titans as a franchise or a concept, it has been down to the fact that a lot of comic editorial, especially in the 00s onwards has been the desire to reduce the superhero universe into something managable which in addition to making everthing connected to the "big books" mean bastardising the titles.

>>149549882

>>149549892

>>149549901

>>149549911

>>149549800
Yeah, I agree with this. Priest's Deathstroke is the best take on him because it's basically "what if Tony Soprano was Captain America?", coupled with all the fucked up dynamics with his exwife and children.

I've noticed a lot of fans (particularly those who just learned about the comics' Judas Contract) and some writers tend to take Slade to the other extreme Wolfman did and just want Deathstroke to be a generic evil mastermind, not unlike his 2003 TT counterpart.

Deathstroke is a piece of shit, but mainly because he murders countless people for money. He was not attracted to Terra, but he just used her as a pawn to fulfill his contract, which might be worse depending on the way you see it. He is evil but he is not The Joker. He tries to rationalize all the awful things he does.

>>149549923

>>149549938

>>149549944

comics used to be so dense

>>149549955

>>149549971

>>149542385 (OP)
Great cover.

>>149549957
Yeah, it very much comes from the Don Mcgregor stuff. Panther's Rage is a fucking great comic, but it is basically a novel complimented with sequential art. People saw the potential of that format and it really worked out imho.

Now we have the opposite where instead of telling a good story, writers and artists are focused on streamlining the reading experience instead of making people slow down.

>>149549993

>>149550014
>>149549932
Yeah. I can get why they like that cause Judas Contract and its treatment of Terra is... rough to say the least (and again I think Priest did the best version of the Slade and Terra dynamic which I totally don't have ideas of how to explore, no sir).

But yeah, you cut to the absolute core of it. The reason that Deathstroke is an interesting character is that he is complicated. He is absolutely a monster, but he does have a sense of right and wrong, he does care about people. It's just that doesn't cancel out who and what he is. He loves his family, but it doesn't cancel out that he was an abusive piece of shit who routinely manipulates them... but it does inform his actions.

Also yeah, I think that people focus on the attraction and it's not really that, which imho makes it even worse. Slade took in a young girl, abused her, fucked with her head and made her a weapon that he could use. That takes a level of malice and forethought that is horrific.

>>149550028
Building on this, something that sorta fascinates me about the Judas Contract is that while a lot of people hyper focus on the Beast Boy and Terra dynamic (and fair to understand why) I think that the more interesting and subtle relationship is Dick and Tara, because they are genuinely two sides of the same coin and unintentionally or intentionally, Wolfman and Perez contrast them so perfectly.

>>149550050

>>149550010
Yeah, till about Titans Hunt, Titans comics genuinely look so visually interesting.

>>149550063

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>>149550104

>>149550117

>>149550130

>>149549882
>>149549771
DiDio was obsessed with this idea of "legacy characters" taking over the Justice League mantles, which Final Crisis was originally supposed to end with the classic JL dying (hence the name) and the legacies taking over: Dick as Batman, Cassie as WW, Conner as Superman, Bart as Flash, etc. But Warner vetoed that hard.

I think DiDio slowly lost interest in the YJ4 (his original favoured children) after they lost momentum following Infinite Crisis due to the Bart Flash run bombing and having to kill off Kon due to legal issues. I think N52 Teen Titans being so terribly received sealed it and he tried to move on to 5G.

And IMO the real reason why DiDio kept going after Dick and Wally was just to ragebait the fans (and because he thought the YJ4 fulfilled the same purpose). It's the same thing Marvel does with Spider-Man fans. They know fans get mad and some editors working in the industry think that's a legitimate marketing strategy. I don't think he actually had anything against NTT given characters like Raven, Starfire, Beast Boy or Cyborg were always somewhere. At most it was just indifference.

>>149550150

>>149550164

>>149550176

>>149550151
That thing of Final Crisis sounds so unbelievably stupid that I have to believe you.

But yeah, it really shows how fucking stupid that Didio was. Part of the fun of these characters was how different they could take the universe of DC and prior themes/ideas. Yet all he can think of was "how to make them older character but boring".

Also, I kinda disagree. I think that he didn't like the NTT and you can really see that in shit like Infinite Crisis, where he viewed them as dead weight. Because it ties into the same reason he okayed shit like Johns emotional corp stuff, despite how absolutely small it made the universe, he liked DC being something small and managble. You can see that Nu52 and the proposed 5G strategy. Beyond being absolutely stupid and making DC dull as piss, it was all based around making it all straightforward and easy.

>>149550214

>>149550233

>>149550151
>why DiDio kept going after Dick and Wally was just to ragebait the fans
Yes but only partially
He kept going after Dick because he makes Batman look really old if Dick has all those accomplishments/developments and because Dick's fanbase is big enough for his books to sell alright despite being dogshit (Ric) or way different than usual (Grayson).

He kept going after Wally because he's a real big Barry fan. Everybody bitches at Johns for bringing Barry back, but it was EVS who ran to Didio when Bart flopped. Pre new 52 Wally dead ass disappeared except for a handful of cameos in Dickbats JLA (before being replaced completely by Jesse) and winter holiday oneshot. Johns wanted a Wally book called Speedforce to go alongside his Barry Flash book, but Didio shot him down, and then Johns asked for Wally backups in the Barry Flash book which Didio also shot down. He only allowed him back in the main universe because new 52 sales were starting to slip back down to pre new 52 levels so they needed some reader goodwill back.

>>149550255

>>149550261
Yeah and what is stupid about it too... O'Neil (unintentionally) and Wolfman (intentionally) gave Bruce a fucking great way out of this kind of bullshit. Dick was doing his own thing, but past a certain point he and Bruce started being joined at the hip. So you can keep Bruce relatively young while also having Dick having all these accomplishments.

It again sums up the big problem of Didio and his editorial. He can't think for more than five minutes and that people have longer attention spans. It's also what pissed me off about Dark Crisis in it's "critique" of Didio, with how it missed the fucking mark. People weren't bitching at Didio for just "legacy" characters. They hated how he kept shrinking and making DC boring.

If you wanted to do a parody of Didio, the whole thing would have been better as Parallax and Barry trying to make the timeline "right" and viewing anything that disrupted their perfect paradise as trash.

>>149550328
>stopped being joined at the hip

fixed.

>>149550340

>>149550214
>Also, I kinda disagree. I think that he didn't like the NTT and you can really see that in shit like Infinite Crisis, where he viewed them as dead weight.

There is an interview after he left DC where he said that he first thing he did when he arrived to DC was to try to "make the Titans as popular as the Justice League again", which resulted in...Geoff Johns' Teen Titans.

IMO Johns' Teen Titans is what DiDio envisioned the Titans (and in a way the DCU as a whole) to be back then: the YJ4 characters being positioned as the true successors to the JL with some NTT characters thrown in to keep the team recognizable.

I actually think the mismanagement of the Teen Titans book after Johns left was just a complete accident and mainly a result of Berganza and DiDio being godawful editors and later Bob Harras parachuting his BFF Lobdell into the book.

>>149550350

>>149550261
What I don't get is why Didio ended up pushing Damian so hard because he makes Bruce look older than Dick ever would because Dick is fucking adopted. By rebirth they dumped the "Damian was a test tube baby" bullshit so when they randomly made Damian 13 to take over the Teen Titans book, that means Bruce had been Batman for at least 13 years. Mind you 14 years is the biggest age gap between Bruce and Dick has ever been, and that was precrisis.

>>149550375

>>149550381
Cause it was one by one of his pet creators Morrison. I used to really like Morrison (and still do to an extent) but reading about the shit they pulled with X-Men editorial, how they fucked over the Bat-Office etc made me realise that although nowhere as obnoxious as dudes like Bendis, Johns and Millar, Morrison really represented such a major problem of the 00s comics, which was superstar writers going wild with no one telling them to explain their dumb bullshit.

>>149550426

>>149550368
NGL, I think that interview actually show so much of his ass of that stuff and his take on DC as a whole.

Teen Titans as a brand got super popular because it was about a select bunch of characters that writers had no idea what to do with and was also based around making those characters work and be unique within DC, not replacing the Justice League which is what Didio seems convinced that they needed to be.

I also think the mismanagement of the team was shitty editorial too with them having no idea what made the book popular beyond being the "sidekick book" without realising what actually made the book popular originally.

It's fucking wild that Moore despite basically just writing Liefield's coked up conclusion to the Hollywood era to the Titans understood the formula of Wolfman's stuff more than guys who run DC.

>>149550459
Fuck. Goddamnit.

>>149550471

>>149550487

>>149550368
Post Johns Teen Titans was one of the worst edited books at DC at the time it was coming out.

McKeever was a up and comer who made his name writing teen books so naturally DC put him on Teen Titans. He said straight up said he would hand in his ideas and editorial would throw it out, give him their ideas, and told him to write them (that Wonder Dog plot was a Berganza plot). He wasn't allowed to use characters he wanted (he wanted Fever and was told to kill her and replace her with Aquagirl). Wolfman told him to quit and he went back to marvel and wrote a couple decent books, but his name and career were so tarnished by his TT run that they all sold like shit.

>>149550510

>>149550527

>>149550511
McKeever made a twitter thread a long ass time ago detailing his misadventures at DC.

>Forced to kill Fever and Kid Devil, even though he had plans for both of them, with Kid Devil being planned to temporarily become a villain to later be redeemed
>Was shouted at for his writing of Static Shock despite McDuffie himself giving him the greenlight on it, because apparently it could have tanked the entire Milestone deal
>Had to write a 5-part time travel storyline where Titans of Tomorrow would defeat JLA and that it must feature Starro in the way that he was depicted in a GL event
>Had no creative control/input whatsoever when he was writing Countdown
>the story where wonder dog is actually a demon and then kills Marvin and mauls Wendy

I wouldn't be surprised if Beechen is also a victim of it considering how badly Didio hates Cass too desu.

>>149550537

>>149550511
Ironically, by all accounts that is what happened to Wolfman. Basically, after the departure of Perez, the unpopularity of Danny Chase and the slow nature of the Wilderbeast plot line, they called in Peterson to "fix" the books after they couldn't poach Claremont from X-Men.

Although I am not exactly a fan of the pre-editorial Wilderbeast plotline, come Peterson stuff it feels like WCW and TNA during the Russo years where editorial was throwing shit at Wolfman to work with, changed their minds halfway through and Wolfman was unable to finish either his original ideas or the stuff editorial handled him.

I still like Jurgens Titans

>>149550571
Goddamnit!

Fuck!

>>149550574
Oh it's a decent teen book and I can see the appeal. It's just not what I think people wanted from Titans.
>>149550586

>>149550601
>>149550555
It doesn't shock me. Remember, McDuffie was easily one of the hottest and most anticipated writers at the time taking over what was supposed to be their mainline book and they treated as him as a whipping boy, while Didio's boys got to run around with their stupidity.

>>149550628

>>149550650

>>149550661

>>149550555
>>149550628
In hindsight I'm glad Johns stayed on JSA for a couple years of the 2007 volume. It was mediocre, bloated, and more dedicated to jacking off Ross and Kingdom Come than to being a good JSA story, but at least Johns being on it ensured DC and Didio wouldn't do something completely evil to the franchise until Willingham, Guggenheim, and the reboot.

>>149550685
>>149550677
Yeah, a story I've heard is that Johns and Didio butted heads quite a few times (despite sharing some similar sensibilities) but Johns was just too big to refuse, so when he put his foot down he was able to tell Didio to fuck off

>>149550703

>>149550724
Also, all this segways nicely into something I've been thinking about NTT and my reread of this. Wolfman's update of the superhero vs the 00s updating.

NTT is fundamentally based on updating the superhero. Nearly all of its initial major foes are based around updating common archetypes, especially shit found in Kirby comics:

Trigon=Darkseid/Galactus
Brother Blood=Doctor Doom/Magneto
HIVE=AIM/HYDRA

The big thing in these updates is he looks at modern knowledge/sensabilities. Trigon comes hot off the Satanic Panic, at the time of its introduction it was common knowledge that intelligence organisations would use proxies to complete their end hence shit like Deathstroke and the Judas Contract. Likewise people like dictators and televangelists were manipulating their image through the use of mass media etc. Likewise, he created shit like the Omega Men when stuff like Star Wars was becoming a cultural phenomena.

It's an update guided by (at the time) modern sensibilities but also a love for the superhero genre.

It's such a fascinating contrast to dudes in the 00s where the whole thing was that there were a bunch of archetypes and stories that were totally outdated and needed to go.

>>149550754

>>149550779

>>149550793

Gonna take about a ten minute break, to do something, if the thread is still here I'll try to get us up to NTT 20.

>>149550754
Speaking of Brother Blood I dunno know why Johns connected him to Trigon so far. Cults are always gonna be relevant.

>>149550754
Yeah, I was actually thinking about this yesterday. People wonder why Titans doesn't move past Wolfman/Perez but IMO virtually no Titans writer has ever actually tried to engage with what Wolfman was doing. Either they do watered down rehashes or they try to move away from it altogether.

If DC wants to actually move on from New Teen Titans you have to find a writer who is capable of making the Titans face the threats and sensibilities of the 2020s. Sadly the list of people actually capable of doing this in the western comicnook industry is very short.

Funnily enough the only one that ever actually kinda got it was that Cartoon Network executive who decided it was a good idea to turn this 80s comic into a FCLC-inspired western anime for 7 year olds.

>>149550814
While that Ritesh guy fell into schizophrenia when talking about Johns, I think that he did totally call out a fundamental aspect of Johns as a creative, which is a tendency to streamline things that "seem" like that they should be connected or important, i.e. the creation of the Lantern Corps, making Black Adam super important when he was a one off character in the Captain Marvel books because of his connection to the Wizard and Billy.

So, it made sense from that aspect which was "Cult" and "Devil" seem like a natural fit, especially with Blood's desire to dominate Raven.

The biggest problem is that Brother Blood was not just a "cult". He was basically Wolfman writing Doc Doom as the hellish cross between Jim Jones and Jerry Farwell.

>>149550885

>>149550931

>>149550955

>>149550974

>>149549689
>the Titans [had] their own place within DC and their own vibe, which was basically embracing the whole interconnected and maximalist nature of the DC universe
This right here is what I loved most about the classic books and what it feels like they lost along the way. The NTT took one archetypal DC character, three corny silver-age sidekicks, and then added three new post-CCA genre characters to round out the team.
They would easily shift from thriller to spy fiction to murder mystery to horror to fantasy to sci-fi to classic superhero action and it worked because it was just going deeper into one of the team members personal lives and backstory.

>>149550998

>>149550917
Oh man, Ritesh. I still follow him on Twitter (he made his account private) and he has gotten over his weird hatred towards Johns. But instead now he is very cynical about direct market comics as a whole, including his former idol Grant Morrison.

Well, in reality, he now just talks about soccer most of the time. Honestly it seems healthier for him.

>>149551033

>>149551051
Internet went down, sorry.

>>149551088
>>149551051
>>149551043
Yeah, he was an interesting critic when I first started reading his stuff. Also, I think that his cynicism regarding Morrison is kinda... shared especially amongst people his age who actually read comics when they are actually examine that while Morrison's comics

>>149550885
Shit sorry, realised I didn't answer this.

As a guy who has written out the most dogshit Titans and Nightwing proposal, yeah I have to agree. While people always praise Claremont having his finger to the pulse of culture in the 70s to 80s, Wolfman also did too, just a lot less obviously.

With his cast, I've talked Raven to death there is a reason that Changeling/Beast Boy was... as he was at the time, which was the rise of the 80s family sitcom as the bratty "bad kid" which Bart Simpson would eventually parody.

Cyborg's whole question for self-identity and the battle between man and machine came out just as guys like Gibson were writing their first forays into the cyberpunk and there was debate on the effect machines would have on our lives.

Hell, even Wally, badly written as he was for this section, represented a whole generation of kids wondering if they wanted to follow in their parents/mentors steps or do something entirely different. While I could be reading too deep into it, it def reminds me of that whole phenomena that Carlin talked about which is how guys decided it was hip to be square etc.

Even Terra was a reaction to the time which was the blacklash to the women's sexual liberation. You can see that in the character who she turned into a reaction to, which was Kitty Pryde, a character who at the time embodied a lot of the traits of that particular movement.

Not entirely sure what Dick, Starfire and Troy would've been a real reaction to... but yeah.

Hell, even their stories are that. The 80s were a time of conspiracy and intrigue, so their comics were very much based in that, even when jumping around genres.

>>149551098

>>149551120
>>149551005
Yep. You got it in one.

There is a major contrast between Wolfman and Claremont during this period imho. Claremont was explicitly super experimental for better and worse. He would always move the book to a different genre, have it stay there for a bit.

Wolfman in contrast was a guy who understood the original nature of these "classic" stories. He understood the trappings, structure and how to make them. He would play around with them, but he never tried to get super fuck-y with them and instead focused on telling the best updated versions of these stories he could, knowing the character drama and dynamics would intrigue readers.

>>149551151

>>149551163

>>149551174

>>149542385 (OP)
Thanks

>>149551190

I'm glad that the 2003 cartoon got me into this series and the other Titan runs

>>149551208

>>149551228

>>149551246

>>149551260

>>149551276

>>149551293

>>149551308

>>149551330

>>149551349

>>149551363

>>149551379

>>149551402

>>149551425
Not to be a member of the Ettingville Club and talk about my fanfic, but the thing that I genuinely think with a good Titan run that actually follows up on these themes and ideas.
1) Rooster - A common problem that the Titans, especially from Titan Hunt had is both the members, mainly their purpose and perspective. See with Wolfman, all of his characters were cultural reactions, brought different genres to the table and also had a particular personality type which made it easy for them to bounce off each other. If you're making a new Titans rooster, either made up of old members or new ones, you need to think long and hard about what they bring to the table not just chuck em on the team cause nostalgia.

2) What's changed and how can you bring it in - The NTT were a reaction to their time period and Wolfman trying to update the common archetypes and tropes of the genre. Instead of trying to bring back the glory days of the NTT, think about how both culture and superhero comics have changed and bring that in to your stories.

3) Wolfman gave you a playground, use it - A common flaw is that the Titans are reduced to the sidekick/teen team that takes on junior versions of the threats which their mentors faced. However, when reading over Wolfman's stuff, you have things like the Monks of Azaroth, the Titans of Myth, Vega System, the Wilson family, HIVE, Brother Blood, Trigon etc. Likewise the Titans themselves are not just junior versions of their mentors, they have their own complicated relationships and history with each other, born from them being on the same team.

3) Espionage and Conspiracy - A key point of difference between the Titans and Justice League is the tone of their stories. The Justice League can be bundled up in conspiracies and international incidents, however that feeling of touching something that you can only barely understand was a vibe that Wolfman instilled in many of his Titan stories and in the modern world;

>>149551443
>3) Espionage and Conspiracy - A key point of difference between the Titans and Justice League is the tone of their stories. The Justice League can be bundled up in conspiracies and international incidents, however that feeling of touching something that you can only barely understand was a vibe that Wolfman instilled in many of his Titan stories and in the modern world; that vibe is something that I think many of us feel.

>>149551470

>>149551487
Interestingly enough, I think YJ despite being very much an update of the Wolfman formula fell into a fundamental trap that he did after Titans Hunt. Mainly way too many characters and they were not clearly defined in both role and what they brought to the table.

>>149551511

>>149551535

>>149551546

>>149551562

>>149551470
Ah, poor Frances.
I’d like it if they tried making her a Titan so she would do something beyond the generic split personality and evil ex tropes.

>>149551579
Also, wanna know the funniest shit about doing this reading again? It's realising that Liefield had two Titan pitches. There is obviously Youngblood, but when you read X-Force after reading Wolfman Titans, it becomes apparent that Liefield's other idea was that Deathstroke would take over as leader and mentor.

>>149550885
>Funnily enough the only one that ever actually kinda got it was that Cartoon Network executive who decided it was a good idea to turn this 80s comic into a FCLC-inspired western anime for 7 year olds

Adaptations are often made by people with little to no prior attachment to the source material. Usually this is negative, but in cases like Titans it might be necessary because it means they can distill more easily what works and what doesn't instead of having fandom brainrot.

>>149551596

>>149551593
I think the fundamental problem is that she has a lot in common with Raven and Omen so people don't have any ideas for her that don't work with a more popular character.

I do think that Wolfman gave an interesting idea which was showing the strength of the character and bravery it takes to be a superhero... but he doesn't make Frances a regular cast member so that doesn't really work.

>>149551624

>>149551621
Honestly depends. They obviously read the comics, but they didn't come at this from a fan trying to adapt something.

That being said, I think their take on Terra is my second favourite and their take on Judas Contract is easily the best.

>>149551640
I think the biggest problem comes from people coming to an adaption of "fixing" the material or being embarrassed with what they are working with.

>>149551621
I think they mostly captured the core of NTT even if it is pretty different

>>149551640
By "fandom brainrot" I meant moreso all the discourse that surrounds the Titans being the next generation/the sidekick team, "why aren't they in the Justice League?" and so on. It might be better for a Titans adaptation to be made by someone who isn't as referential to the rest of the DC Universe.

>>149551677
*Reverential

>>149551657

>>149551677
>>149551693
Oh absolutely.

That being said, I think incorporating the DC Universe into a Titans adaptation is a good idea... so long as you don't have the mainstream big stuff overcome the "Titan big stuff".

It's a bit like the Legion.

Beyond the fact it was Bendis who was writing what I could only describe as racist caricatures, the indication that the whole thing was unsalvagable was how much it ignored what made the Legion interesting to tie it to "modern day".

>>149551726

>>149551736

>>149551751
Also seeing as this is a Wally-Centric story, it's a fun time for me talk about YJ again. I think that ironically, despite its flaws, Season 2 of the show actually did the whole thing that Wolfman wanted to do, of Wally trying to retire but being dragged into this craziness regardless.

>>149551780
And they did it so much better.

>>149551791

>>149549882
Disagree with what was said? Because it's been 40 years of fits and starts. The Titans lineup being treated like a generational yo-yo by editors with wildly different ideas for what the franchise is supposed to represent isn't an opinion, it's fact.
>1996 - Teen Titans are new characters alien hybrids
>1999 - Dick and the Fab Five
>2003 - Tim and Young Justice with the W/P icons
>2008 - Dick and the Wolfman/Perez Titans
>2011 - Tim and the Nu52 Abomination
>2016 - Dick and the Rebirth Haney Run
>2016 - Damian and the Wolfman/Perez Titans
>2021 - Dick and the Titans Academy
>2023 - Dick and the Wolfman Perez Titans

>>149551802

>>149551818

>>149551844

>>149551861

>>149551891

>>149551910

>>149551922
>>149551815
Oh I don't disagree that it's been a yoyo between casts.

I am disagreeing that it was designed as the teen book when Wolfman wrote it and stating the problem has fundamentally been that editorial have been chasing after this mirage of a book whose central conceit never existed.

Remember, prior to this the Teen Titans had been a fifty issue comic that had been cancelled twice. Although Wolfman certainly followed up on prior characters, his focus was on the collection on misfit toys like Wonder Girl (who was created due to an editorial mistake), Changeling (who post Doom Patrol had nothing to do), Robin (who due to O'Neil was no longer joined at the hip to Bruce and was doing these college adventures), a prior character who he reimagined (Starfire) while bringing in his own characters (Raven, Cyborg).

Although the characters were certainly younger, the only real teen was Beast Boy.

Essentially it was the equivalent of Claremont's reimaginging of the X-Men, where he was using the base that someone else imagined to launch his own stuff rather than being a "teen book".

>>149551955

>>149551969

>>149551985

>>149551995

>>149552015

>>149550917
Making Brother Blood and Trigon work required jettisoning all the detail behind both characters.
Trigon was accidentally created by the cult of Azar, which had existed for centuries, but not that long (i forget the exact number). He has a whole origin story and mythology set up. Brother Blood is a legacy dating all the way back to the earlier crusades and has roots in classic christian mythology. The origin of the original Brother Blood is very clear on how he gained his immortality, and how the church grew over some 1200 years. Johns saw all that and said "fuck it, he worships Trigon now" even when the basic timeline doesn't work.

>>149552026

>>149552043

>>149552032
>Johns having an idea he obviously had as a kid that doesn't work but fuck it he'll make it canon
Don't act shocked.

>>149551955
Oh okay, Yeah, I never said that. I said that's the take someone at DC clearly has, because they greenlit the Jurgens book, and the Johns book, and the Lobdell book, and the Percy book, and were willing to repeatedly de-age Beast Boy and Raven along the way. Or the DCAMU and the Kami Garcia books.

>>149552068

>>149552151

>>149552168

>>149552193

>>149552219

>>149552237

>>149552253

>>149552270

>>149552304

>>149552334

>>149552355

>>149552369

>>149552386
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37nwLhIA1zs

>>149552402

>>149552444

>>149552494

>>149552506

>>149552521

>>149552539

>>149552552

>>149552565

>>149552579
Okay, I'm gonna stop once we finish this. Tomorrow we have 20 and the Tales of the Titans stuff to go through

>>149552591

>>149552617

>>149552632

>>149552656

>>149552084
>Kami Garcia books
Watching both the cartoon and reading this comics, I must admit, I don't really understand the appeal of the romance of Garfield and Raven. Within the cartoon didn't give the vibe and within the comic it's sorta wild how Raven works in a romance with everyone but Beast Boy/Changeling.

>Cyborg: Two people who loath their fathers yet are defined by them. Victor begins strongly distrusting her but eventually sees their similarities and the two begin to bond.

>Starfire: A woman who was defined by her emotions vs a woman who has to constantly repress hers. Someone who can express their passions and love openly vs someone who feels that they cannot show their emotions even love in fear of hurting others.There's also the Light v Darkness dynamic and the fact they've kissed (in a fucked up way).

>Donna - Both have grown up in paradise but felt a sense of disconnect. Both have a bit of a fucked up backstory/parent issues and can be viewed as bringers of the Apocalypse.

>Robin/Nightwing - Within the comics, both are immensely repressed and have difficulty expressing themself, a desire to leave and forge their own path etc.

>Jericho - The children of awful fathers who have to find alternative ways to express their deep love and affection, finding connection with each other.

>>149552676

>>149552691

>>149552697

>>149552711

>>149552727

>>149552737

>>149552752
Unironically, this is why I hate Identity Crisis. Part of the fun of Doctor Light is that he was this kinda pathetic guy who wants to be dangerous but lacks both the intelligence and wit to actually be successful.

>>149552771

>>149552793

>>149552809

But yeah, this is something that is really special about this section of NTT which is that while Wolfman and Perez are absolutely indulging in the stuff that they like and created, they are really content to play in the sandbox of DC without either minimising the Titans or the heroes that they interact with.

>>149552830

>>149552846

>>149552854

>>149552878

>>149552891

>>149552907

>>149552921

>>149552976

>>149552997

>>149553007
Second to last page.

>>149553019
Last page. Hope you all enjoyed, I'll be back tomorrow to do the Tales stuff and I hoped I didn't scare people off with my autistic rants.

>>149553039
No it's cool talking with people who actually care for the comics and the characters and do more than goon on a 20+ year old children's cartoon.

>>149549882
It should also be noted that the only one that was actually a child was Changeling, the rest were young adults

>>149553039
thanks for the story time. It's been a while since I read NTT
it was interesting to hear your thoughts honestly, really enhanced the story time

>>149549882
I like that it had established sidekicks (Robin - Batman, Kid Flash - Flash, Wonder Girl - Wonder Woman, Changeling - Doom Patrol), characters with only tangential connections to the wider DCU (Cyborg - STAR Labs/Superman, Starfire - Vega/Green Lantern), and an entirely new character unconnected to anything (Raven). I feel like one could make an argument for Raven being the real protagonist of NTT instead of Dick.

>>149550028
It's crazy whiplash reading Deathstroke as a supposedly moral character.
>Wolfman Deathstroke goes after Cheshire and the Ravens with the US Govt for nuking Qurac
>Faeber Deathstroke takes a contract to assassinate Cheshire for nuking Qurac
>Johns Deathstroke drops a living chemical/nuclear bomb on Bludhaven and murders hundreds of thousands of people out of spite
Yeah. Okay.

bump for reading

>>149550028
I hate the later NTT stuff where they almost develop a rapport with him
they should just kill him on sight for what he did

Bump

>>149550571
They put Peterson on Titans and gave him the ability to mandate plots/removed Marv's veto power, because everyone even Wolfmam himself, admitted he had run out of ideas and was half assing shit, because no one had the balls to kick him off the book and bring in new talent to write the book and revitalize it.

>>149555158
bumping for this guy

>>149550571
Wolfman also was unpopular inside DC at the time because he spoke (alonside Moore, Miller and a few others) against the new proposed ratings system. DC then removed him from his editorial position as a response (Fun fact: Wolfman's firing over that is also the direct reason why Moore left DC).
>>149557370
Peterson wasn't great, but he wasn't the guy who fucked New Titans from what I recalk. That was the editors that came in after Peterson left.

https://www.comicsbeat.com/sdcc-25-legends-in-the-making-dc-teen-heroes-and-beyond/
Seemed on theme and I didn't want to start a new thread

>Assembled like the heroes of old, called together by common fate, some of the finest creators that have ever worked on comic book stories involving teen sidekicks gathered in Room 10 at the San Diego Comic-Con to discuss… teen sidekicks!
>At the panel, “Legends in the Making: DC Teen Heroes and Beyond,” moderator TJ Shelvin (Upper Deck Publishing) led Barbara Kesel (Editor, New Titans), Todd Nauck (artist, Young Justice), Mark Waid (World’s Finest: Teen Titans), Joe Illidge (Editor, Batgirl), Phil Jimenez (artist, Titans Annual #1), and Tim Sheridan (writer, Titans Academy) in an examination of the best stories and characteristics of DC Comics’ teen superheroes.
>The moderator structured the panel around vague questions and let the panelists speak on the topic he raised, the first one being, “What do sidekicks and teen heroes mean to you?”

>>149560409
>During this time, Illidge made the point that DC operates on a ten-year cycle. Every ten years or so, fans get new Batgirls or new Kid Flashes. He also suggested we all seek out Waid’s recent True History of the DC Universe (of which #2 was just released).

I feel like that used to be true, but I feel that characters like Damian/Jon/Trinity are effectively the end of the road. Also, at this point they can't keep adding more sidekicks without it being overcrowded.

>>149559411
same

>>149561913
Yep, DC can't really do "better" than biological kids, as most people seem to think biological kids > adopted kids > kids who are neither

Damian is going to be 20 years old next year and DC hasn't really slowed down where Tim lasted about 20 years after his debut (1989-2011) before DC tossed him in the garbage.

And ultimately DC is kinda running out of already popular teams to put most of their sidekicks in (Titans, YJ, Teen Titans), and DC absolutely SUCKS at pushing new/old teams.

>>149561913
Eh...
>Batman - 1938
>Robin - 1940
>Batwoman - 1956
>Bat-Girl - 1961
>Batgirl - 1967
>Huntress - 1977
>Jason Todd - 1983
>Helena Bertinelli - 1989
>Tim Drake - 1989
>Spoiler - 1992
>Cassandra Cain - 1999
>Damian Wayne - 2006
>Kate Kane - 2006
>Batwing - 2011
>Harper Row - 2011
>Duke Thomas - 2014
>Luke Fox - 2014
>Tim "Jace" Fox - 2021 (technically 1979)
There's way too many characters in Batman's orbit.

>>149561913
>He also suggested we all seek out Waid’s recent True History of the DC Universe

no fucking thank you

And we begin again. Thanks for the wait and let's see if that if we can actually finish up to Tales. I'll try to answer your questions and replies.

>>149560399
Titans Hunt is very much a creation of Peterson, much more than it is Wolfman.

>>149563376

>>149553864
Yeah. I've argued it before but I genuinely think that Wolfman's original team needs to be studied by other writers.

I am not saying by any means its perfect but it's definitely one of the strongest opening line ups a book has ever had as Wolfman and Perez were able figure out what each character was able to bring to the table (even though Kid Flash didn't exactly work out as Wolfman obviously didn't have that much interest in him past a certain point).

Likewise, yeah, as you said, in terms of ease of interacting with the rest of the DCU, you had established characters with a bit of history to pull from, so you could easily interact with prior characters. Likewise, Starfire and Cyborg, despite having connections to stuff that was previously established, it was flexible enough that Wolfman could take in different directions.

>>149563393
Continuing on this, honestly, I think each of the core six (Dick, Raven, Gar, Starfire, Cyborg and Donna) could be argued to be the protag of this run. For Gar it's his coming-of-age story, Vic's is the battle for his humanity, Donna is defining and understanding herself, Starfire is the journey to understand humanity and overcome the worst aspects of herself, Dick’s growing into a hero arguably greater than Batman and for Raven it is a fight for her soul.

>>149563398
>>149554052
I mean in the NTT and Deathstroke, written by one guy throughout the whiplash is fucking crazy. Slade is a man who threatens civilians, tries to kill kids and rapes (I know what Perez and Wolfman's intention was, its still rape cause she's a minor) an underage girl and when he shows up after the trial of Deathstroke, Beast Boy calls him a friend and we get the whole "Slade is an honourable man".

Again, not to continue talking about Priest and his go on Deathstroke, but he absolutely gets what make that work, with Slade absolutely having morals i.e. stopping genocide, being disgusted at his old friend for sleeping with his son etc. but his morality is ultimately very self-serving and somehow can always justify him and his actions after the fact.

>>149563407

>>149553812
Yep. This opening is genuine most comparable to Wein and Claremont taking on X-Men, where although they both read and understood prior lore, they totally revamped the team and took in a new direction, using the name/history as a base to build from. Personally, I kinda thought that Vol 2 should’ve started as “New Titans” but I get brand synergy is a thing.

>>149563414


>>149553758
>>149553835
Cheers. Oh boy, when I get up to the Judas Contract though, I am going to be going on a few autistic tangents

>>149555450
> Almost
Anon, you have Beast Boy tearfully calling Deathstroke his friend and saying that he never really consider Slade's feelings after killing Jericho.

>>149560399
>DC killing the goose that laid the gold egg and having an idiotic system that only corpos like which writers knew was fucking stupid.
Y'know, at some point you just aren't surprised.

>>149563452

>>149563459
>>149560409
Jesus fucking Christ. I am an autist on the internet storytiming comics that are 4 decades old and yet somehow I have a better grasp of what made the Titans work than the people who actually write this stuff. Seriously, I can't stress this enough, the appeal of the Titans book was never it was the "sidekick book". It was the island of younger heroes who had lost their place due to how comics were being written at the time.

>>149563474

>>149563491

>>149563504
>>149562182
I mean, also on this front too, the biggest problem is that fulfils what people seem to think legacy hero needs to be which is "famous hero 2.0" and ignoring that the reason that people liked a lot of the younger/newer heroes to begin with.

Seriously, YJ, which had a team that could best be described as what corporate/editorial want... and all the legacy heroes were wildly different from their mentors and that was gave them a lot of the appeal. In contrast to the maturity of their older mentors, they were these mix of popular teenage character archetypes, the fantasy of kids who read comics and superhero lore.

>>149563532

>>149561913

>>149563559

>>149563577

>>149563588

>>149563603

>>149563626
>>149562327
Nope. Nope. Dude is a fucking idiot who is trying to be Morrison trying to find trends in comics that don't exist. The biggest problem is that post Didio especially is that people began to chuck on a bunch of legacy characters without figuring out what their thematic purpose was, how they fit and how future writers could use them.

Batgirl and Batwoman were initially a reaction to seduction of the innocent to convince people that the dynamic duo weren't gay. Barbara was a non-character for ages and there was a reason that Len Wein said "cripple the bitch" come Killing Joke, which was the character had barely been relevant for years. Jason was created so DC could have their cake and eat too, with Batman having a teen sidekick and Dick growing into his own. Likewise, Jason Todd's more rebellious aspects were a reaction to fans saying that he was just Dick Grayson 2.0. Tim Drake was created to try and do Robin 2.0 better by actually looking what was popular amongst young readers at the time. Cass took on a moniker that quite frankly hadn't been relevant for years and took it in a totally different direction from anything else.

The biggest problem was when you get up to Damian where Morrison had this great epic idea for the character... and their story relies on them being the only one who can use him.

Likewise, Harper and Duke were just created with no real plan with how they fit in, with Harper being an obvious reaction to being unable to use Cass Cain because Didio had bizarre editorial shit for Nu52

>>149563640

>>149563653

>>149563376
Bumping

>>149563665

>>149563671

>>149563094
Waiting till its done before I get the TPB but I have no hopes.

>>149563696

>>149562327
I mean looking at that list... there is something really stands out, especially from about say Harper Row onwards, which is what was the purpose of these characters? What did they bring to the table and how different were they?

Spoiler, Kate, Cass etc all had their own thing going on and there was a lot you could play with. Likewise, there was enough distance that they didn't have to be tied to Bruce etc and often weren't.

>>149563705

>>149563717

>>149563728
Now onto the tales stuff.

>>149563742
There was one aspect of Didio that has burned into my mind. It was when he was telling people how to write Beast Machines, which was fundamentally a sequel... where he told them to disregard all prior stories and just do something new.

It really stuck out because it sorta encapculates to me what makes a lot of his DC work boring. No imagination, no understanding what made the original things compelling to the audience and deciding how to evolve them. It's just "Oh do X, it was popular once so it'll be a smash hit once again" while not understanding what they are actually doing.

>>149563759

>>149550917
I don't mind Blood being connected to Trigon that much (one could headcanon the blood cult as being some evil splinter group of Azarath that returned to Earth or something), but it does take away Cyborg's main antagonist. Remember, Blood was introduced killing Cyborg's ex-girlfriend.

>>149563765
Did you not notice the image limit?

>>149563801
The church of blood is older than the cult of azar, retard.