>>149542385
It's time for more Titans stuff. Sorry for the two threads, but we hit the page limit for the last one.

>>149563797 (OP)

>>149563817

>>149563826

>>149563840
Honestly, on this origin story, I feel that it sorta made Vic's forgiveness of his father far more bitter than it did sweet. Because all of this stuff makes Vic's father as such a massive piece of shit, with Vic's rage being completely justified.

>>149563854

>>149563868

>>149563879
As much as Cyborg is reduced to the "token black hero" of the Titans and DC as a whole, I have to admit, especially reading these opening stories up to Titans Hunt, I think that the character is severely underrated and genuinely has the strongest themes to play with out of all the core six. I feel if you're gonna write Cyborg, you should be reading a lot of Cyberpunk, sci-fi and science articles concerning how tech can change perceptions of the self and reality etc.

Likewise, Cyborg genuinely has such a strong origin story thematically. While the turning into a metallic hero is the end goal, it ultimately serves as the cruel punchline to his entire life. This was a guy who since his first day of life never had any control of it and that subtext just became text when he couldn't even die, his dad stripping away Vic's humanity in an attempt to save him.

>>149563898

>>149563907

>>149563922

>>149563943
Although there are parts does fall into "white guy trying to write black people in the 80s:, I think that it in the hands of a clever writer could be really interesting aspect of Cyborg in the hand of a smart writer, which is exploring that he saw two sides of the world. His dad's world of academics and Ron's life on the street, that he became aware of social injustices and his life on the street with Ron let him let out all that rage his father had given him

>>149563979

>>149563996

>>149563801
Yeah, it also makes Brother Blood a much less interesting antagonist. The whole thing of him was that he was this fascinating figure who was able to play the media and was the head of a legitimate church that was respected by the law into just a cackling devil cult.

>>149564008

>>149564018

>>149564031

Bumping

>>149564041

>>149564052

>>149564064

>>149563407
>Beast Boy calls him a friend and we get the whole "Slade is an honourable man".

A writer could very easily reframe that as Slade just gaslighting a grieving 16 year old.
>>149563414
>Personally, I kinda thought that Vol 2 should’ve started as “New Titans” but I get brand synergy is a thing.

They didn't change the title to New Titans earlier because DC wasn't sure if they could use the "Titans" trademark for a comic.

>>149564078

But yeah, I think this origin story demonstrates why I find the New 52 stuff really boring. Beyond the fact that Johns quite literally castrates Cyborg, he misses so many of the themes which made the character interesting and totally ignores the whole self-hatred, the actual complexities of Victor's relationship with his dad/family and the themes of having one's autonomy stolen.

>>149564109
>>149564081
>A writer could very easily reframe that as Slade just gaslighting a grieving 16 year old.
Oh absolutely. There is a fucking lot in Judas Contract and its aftermath you can easily reframe and make a lot more interesting.

>They didn't change the title to New Titans earlier because DC wasn't sure if they could use the "Titans" trademark for a comic.

Huh.

>>149564125

>>149564138

>>149564148

>>149564160
Now we move onto Raven

>>149564168

>>149564181

>>149564198

>>149564211

>>149564228

>>149564242
Someone on the previous thread mentioned how Raven is very much an original direction for the Titans and I definitely agree with that. Unlike Starfire and Cyborg, who were linked to prior established ideas, Raven's mythology is utterly original.

However, she like Trigon, is an update of a pretty common archetype especially in Kirby comics, which is the forsaken creation/child ala Silver Surfer and Orion. I think the biggest difference is beyond the obvious anti-christ imagery, is that the saviours of Raven, the monks of Azaroth, in contrast to High Father/New Genesis where it was this genuinely loving place where Orion felt no anger, Wolfman gave the archetype resentment and a lot more inner conflicts regarding both themselves and their adopted parents.

>>149564253

>>149564272

>>149564109
I think the real reason why Cyborg never fit it in the Justice League is because he stood out too much and not in a good way.

In the (New Teen) Titans, Cyborg's life sucks because he is a half robot, yes, but the rest of the characters are also kinda freaks or ostracized or feel lesser in some way. Beast Boy is green, Raven is half-demon (which is probably worse than being a half-robot), Starfire is an alien, Jericho is mute, Nightwing has an inferiority complex, Donna is trying to figure out her identity and so on.

When it comes to the main JL, other than Cyborg none of the characters' powers come with any real downsides. So all the angst in the story falls entirely on Vic. Not to mention he is probably like 15 years younger than everybody else.

>>149564290

>>149564304
>>149564294
Yeah, although the Titans become celebrities there is that feeling of tragedy and not belonging.

In contrast, the JL are made up of the world's greatest heroes (no that you'd know that in Nu52 Johns stuff, they were mostly assholes) where you don't really have that opportunity to explore this realistic angst amplified by the superhero setting

>>149564324

>>149564339

>>149564351
It's why I really don't like a lot of the updates that reduce Raven to a "goth girl" beyond the '03 stuff as it was made for kids. It really undersells imho what makes the characters internal conflict interesting reducing it to "I'm different and no one understands that".

She grew up believing herself unworthy of love and believing her justified feelings/emotions were a sign of how unworthy she was of both giving and receiving love.

While I can certainly see someone like that gravitating towards the goth aesthetic, I feel that there is so much to her character to explore.

>>149563907
>super genius
>peak physical body
>learning to be sociable and street smarts
And that's before he becomes a walking super computer.

>>149564361

>>149564372

>>149564385

>>149564364
Oh yeah, it's part of what makes Cyborg such an interesting character to me. He is someone who is brilliant. Strong and smart, who has seen both sides of the fence.

However, despite all that he has so little control of himself and his life. It's the immense tragedy and the fascinating part of him, he has the things that many of us would kill for, but how he got them has made him wish that had lives like ours.

>>149564402

>>149564416

>>149564018
>narrowly missed a life of crime
>only to almost die to a monstrosity from another dimension because of an experiment gone wrong from his parents
That's rough buddy.

>>149564434

>>149564445

>>149564450

>>149564064
We can rebuild him. We have the technology. We can make him better than he was. Better... stronger... faster.

>>149564462
>>149564450

>>149564435
In terms of suffering Cyborg is up there. But I think again, it's something that makes his origin story here vs Johns' despite them on the surface those things being the same story.

For Johns, it a single bad event. For this it's the icing on the cake, a final fuck you.

>>149564467
Cyborg making the million dollar man sound when he punches someone would be kino. Also though, remember when this roughly would've come out. It was when Cyberpunk as a genre was becoming a thing.

>>149564491

>>149564503

>>149564513
Last page for a bit because I'm gonna have to take a quick break for dinner. Cheers anons.

What Titans villains do you anons think deserve a comeback?

>>149564522
no problem

>>149564522
OP is Australian?

>>149564741
Fix the Church of Blood. Beat everyone involved over the head with NTT (1984) Annual #2 and those two original arcs till they understand the sort of character he's supposed to be. Brother Eternity was fine as a rebrand till Taylor pulled those unnecessary tamaranean recons. Bring back Zandia as a country.

Bring back Loren Jupiter as a tone-deaf overbearing billionaire like an Elon or Bezos character. Loren was doing private space flights and pushing private political agendas back before it was cool. He'd make an interesting anti-villain in the modern era.

Use some of Lobdell's villains as canon fodder. Detritus, Thrice, etc.

>>149564741
Titans of myth
Jimenez seems to be bringing them back in the Titans annual

>>149564926
Close but no cigar.

But yeah, reason I was dumping so much last time was that I was on graveyard shift and had sweet fuck all to do.

Also, yeah. I fully agree. Fix the Church of Blood, especially build on the fact that it was a massive organised religion with its own idea of holiness, complete with a literal angel.

Loren Jupiter as an antivillain would be very interesting. I think that could def work. That being said, I think that Damian Darhk could work as a Titan foe, mainly as a front man for HIVE etc. NGL, seeing as Priest left his fate up in the air bringing back Jackal could be really interesting.

I think that a lot of OC characters designed for the cartoon could fit really well, just would take a bit of work.

Also, bringing back Terra as she was in Priest rather than as she was in the current Titans stuff would be good

>>149565379
But yeah, this is the only comic in the Tales which stars someone who is not one of Wolfman's new characters, instead establishing Beast Boy/Changeling after what happened to Doom Patrol as his current status was quite shocking and he needed to connect this version of Beast Boy with what came before.

>>149565044
Titans of Myth are interesting as despite being viewed as the villains by modern takes on Greek mythology, Wonder Woman doesn't seem to have any real idas of how to do them.

>>149565396

>>149565403

>>149565408

>>149565417

>>149565423

>>149565430

>>149565434

>>149564926
>Bring back Loren Jupiter as a tone-deaf overbearing billionaire like an Elon or Bezos character. Loren was doing private space flights and pushing private political agendas back before it was cool. He'd make an interesting anti-villain in the modern era.

This reminds me Loren Jupiter was supposed to be the twist villain at the end of Countdown to Infinite Crisis, with his reasoning being that nobody cares when Omen died in Graduation Day and only cared about Donna.

But DiDio said the twist wouldn't work because nobody knows who Mr Jupiter is, so they changed it to Maxwell Lord.

>>149565438

>>149565442

>>149565440
Again, I fucking have to applaud Didio for his stupidity. Beyond the Max twist not really working, you are aware that you can make people actually care about these characters. It's kinda of your job.

If there is one thing I appreciate the Abnett years for, it was actually trying to make the OG pre-Wolfman Titans work as a team (Kinda wish we got Duela Dent content but hey, it was a decent time regardless.

>>149565446

>>149565452

>>149565454

>>149565456

But yeah, I think Beast Boy/Changeling is a very interesting character. In contrast to Kid Flash, Robin and Wonder Girl, where it feels like it's Wolfman trying to capitalise on their history and do something new, it feels like he had an idea set out for Beast Boy/Changeling so that he would be the "Riche Rich/Brat" of the team and then was working out how to get there.

>>149565463
In general, I think that Beast Boy's role in the titans is very interesting. I think that he is easily the most dislikable character of the cast, especially to start with.

>>149565465
But as the story goes on, you see that the things that make him dislikable, his pride, his womanizing etc are all parts of him trying to cover up the fact that he absolutely despises himself and is working through a lot of shit.

As bad as the aftermath of the Judas Contract is in many respects, it feels really good in some ways for Beast Boy's characterisation as its really that point where he starts to mature by confronting the horrific shit that has happened to him.

>>149565474

>>149565478

>>149565484

>>149565488

>>149565490

>>149565493

>>149565495

>>149565502
Alright, here's a fun fact. Before this there was another Starfire who was very similar in concept. Part of me wonders if Wolfman intended to use this character of for Kori to be a tribute. If its the former, I imagine that halfway through, Wolfman realised that an alien space warrior princess could tie perfectly into the vega system stuff he had going in Green Lantern and Action Comics.

>>149565512
But yeah, we're introduced in this one to Blackfire. I must admit, in terms of design, I think that the 03 design is a massive improvement. Also, here's something that I think though I don't know how many will agree. I think that in this origin story, Blackfire comes off a lot more sympathetic than intended and I think Wolfman realised that too, hence the character becoming a lot more sympathetic in later appearances.

>>149565520

>>149565396
That's because they'd rather use the more popular/well known olympians

No point in using Hyperion, Helios, or Thia when Apollo exists

>>149565526
But yeah on Starfire, something I find really interesting is the tension that this story really hammers down. Although in prior stories, there was that warrior alien aspect present, this really hammers down that a big thing is that despite of, or perhaps because of her kindness and empathy, she is a person capable of great anger and violence who could easily end up killing someone. It's genuinely a fascinating aspect of the character that I wish was brought up more by writers because I feel that aspect of Starfire being someone who can love and hate so intensely, while also being a lot more willing to use force is a fascinating aspect of her character.

>>149565534
Oh sure, just in general it does seem like a bit of a waste as Titans are meant to be much more powerful than their successors and you've got a lot to work with.

>>149565542
And goddamnit. Goddamnit.

>>149565547
Also, while people constantly talk about how well-defined the mythology of Kirby is with Fourth World, I def think that Wolfman gave people a lot of leeway for the Vega System, if only if they'd use em.

And rape. I would make a joke about how Wolfman's female heroes are linked to sexual assault, but that's beneath me.

>>149565628

>>149565520
Blackfire always seemed really evil but then it sort of made sense that she would become ruler of Tamaran.
With her father being so weak and all

>>149565640
Oh yeah, Starfire's parents in this and next stories do not come off that good as either rulers or parents imho. I feel like the Blackfire that Wolfman wrote was very much the definition of that phrase of "A child rejected by its village will burn it down to fill its warmth".

She also reminded me of that line from Azula. "My own mother thought I was a monster. She was right of course, but it still hurt."

>>149565605
Devin Grayson gets a lot of shit from Dickfags for writing Tarantula and for a comment she made (and later apologized for) but it’s very funny that Wolfman barely gets a quarter of the shit she does for all the rape and downplaying it that he does—even to the same fucking character Grayson did… he even did it TWICE to Dick lmao.

>>149565666

>>149565663
Oh god yes. Wolfman, much as I enjoy his NTT has so much goddamn rape. Beyond Trigon Arella being canonical, you get shit like Terra sleeping with Slade is supposed to show that she's a massive slut, the Titan of Myth arc where Donna was basically roofied, this story which all but states that Starfire was raped (potentially as a teen) by the Citadel forces, the Mirage/Dick stuff... and the worst part is I'm like 90% sure I'm forgetting some stuff.

Anyway, done for the day. Gonna take a quick break, but I'll be back for a monday storytime. Probably won't be as long, as I was able to dump so much yesterday cause I was bored and on graveyard shift.

>>149565687
>the Mirage/Dick stuff
that shit was so weird

>>149565687
Thanks for the storytime

>>149565699
Dubs of truth. Yeah, it very much felt very like he was trying to sow conflict between the Team Titans and the Titans.

In general after Total Chaos, it very much felt like Wolfman had no idea how or even what function the Team Titans had and was trying to set up what Claremont did with the X-Men and X-Force, with Cable/X-Force and the X-Men butting heads.

>>149565708
No problem. I'm glad people enjoyed it. I must admit, if we get to Titans Hunt, I am expecting the reaction to my storytimes to be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_nPp64OrBc

Also, if I get through this, one thing I really want to do is do an Omega Men/Vega System storytime.

Thanks, OP.

Bump

>>149565765
the Team Titans genuinely grew on me
it was disappointing to see them mostly erased in Zero Hour just like that

bump

meh