Thread 149674829

Why did Rebirth fail?

>>149674829 (OP)
It was an inside job.

>>149674829 (OP)
Because Geoff Johns lost interest in writing good comics by 2016, and because DC still had the same problems it had since the launch of the New 52: editorial chaos, too many unnecessary titles almost no one bought and read, and terrible Batman books. It was a mistake to let Tom King write your best-selling character and let Scott Snyder write all the universe-changing events. Oh, and hiring Bendis was the final nail in the coffin.

>>149674829 (OP)
It was good up until Bendis and his rejected ANAD Marvel posse invaded DC.

>>149674829 (OP)
Because Dan Didio, Brian michael bendis, scott snyder and tom king.

>>149674829 (OP)
No long term plan.

>>149675271
Honest, I saw cracks in Rebirth as far back as Night of The Monstermen, but /co/ kept telling me to shut up because of how good King's run was.

>>149674829 (OP)
Rebirth was sold as a return to basic with classical characters being the center of the stories on "meat and potatoes" settings. When that compromise was tossed aside and the character assassination, cheap deaths and the new "diverse" characters started to popping up the whole thing started to crumble.

>>149674829 (OP)
>Why did Rebirth fail?

Sabotaged by Dan Didio because he really, really hates giving fans what they want.
Rebirth was an unabiguous success by every metric, and all they had to do was stay the course and continue expanding it until it encompasses all of DC, and every character has been "reborn" - changed in to their best version. Instead it covered a small handful of characters Geoff was personally most invested in and ended before it had even properly started. There's no way in hell it was meant to end with Flash and Green whatever.

>>149675223
>Because Geoff Johns lost interest in writing good comics by 2016
He never has writing good comics as an interest, silly

>>149675675
>and the new "diverse" characters started to popping up
What are you talking about?
Black Power Girl & Islamic Lantern came out well before Rebirth.

>>149676557
New 52 Aquaman was fucking fantastic.

>>149674829 (OP)
They lost the plot regarding the return of New Earth characters / memories and got sidetracked with everything else way too easily.

>>149674829 (OP)
It didn't. It is the ONLY time since the 60s that DC outsold Marvel on an average-sales-per-issue basis. It was an almost overwhelming success. DC abandoned it because editorial was butthurt that it outsold their New 52 garbage.

>>149674829 (OP)
1. Doomsday Clock took too long to come out

2. As a result, Snyder's Metal becoming the central story of DC derailed it

3. By the time Doomsday Clock was finished, instead of using rebirth to add back the pre-flashpoint history of all the characters (which was really the entire point), Didio was trying to force 5G as the ending despite that being the exact opposite of what people wanted from Rebirth

4. Additionally, HIC veered Wally West, the main protagonist of Rebirth, way off the beaten path. Bendis also hardcore veered Superman Rebirth away from its original plans into something very different.

The whole thing just collapsed due to lack of editorial control and Doomsday Clock taking WAY too long to come out.

>>149674829 (OP)
Rebirth gave some good stuff like Jon Kent and true Wally West back then both of them got fucked over.

>>149674829 (OP)
We had this exact thread the other day. Why do bots do this?

>>149677914
Threads with the same subjects have been around way before bots.

>>149676614
>What are you talking about?

NTA but they were clearly trying to get a parallel black Batfamily at certain points, they are trying to get more black green lanterns like Jolene or whatever her name is and they tried to create an entire Chinese counterpart for Superman with that dogshit title

also they were trying to get some new lesbian vigilante in gotham, I think she was related to nightwing or something. some transgender character is getting more and more airtime in batgirl, I think she has a trans room mate or something and DC is priming her to become yet another vigilante.

tim drake and jon kent becoming gay (they were clearly priming him to develop a crush on that girl next door when the superfamily moved to Idaho or whatever the fuck it was during Rebirth)

in my opinion - the diverse shit is always gay and retarded in my book. but they keep on trying. it would be one thing to have diversity and not make it the faggiest thing ever but when you have someone saying "I'm a transwoman in Gotham, of course I have a baseball bat" it's just mind-boggling how disconnected from reality an entire company has to be not realize most people are simply not woke enough to spend money on it

anyways im just venting. the main issue with silver age writing was the campiness and wordiness, with modern comics it's the woke shit. every era has its weakness. the weakness of the 90s and early oughts was edgy shit.

>>149677914
better than the 50 coomer threads

>>149677914
I don't think this one is on bots. There's this ONE poster who HATES Rebirth and LOVES the New 52 and is insanely butthurt that the New 52 was killed by Rebirth and is even more butthurt that Rebirth outsold the New 52 and is still bitching about it 9 fucking years later.

>>149675544
That shitty crossover completely derailed Batman and Nightwing. And for all the complaints people have about King's Batman, the first arc was fine.

God so much went wrong so fast after Metal ended. Bendis came and aged up Jon and had his mediocre Young Justice run. Tom King shot Nightwing in the fucking head, and Heroes in Crisis was the final nail in the coffin.

>>149678193
Maybe it's Didio?

>>149674829 (OP)
becasue Johns had to fight Didio every step of the way who was massively against it

>>149676857
>>149676857
>>149677751

>>149676534
It was sabotaged by DiDio and Lee because this was the time where Johns lost his standing at DC after the Justice League film flopped and he got pushed out of his corporate role in being the link between the comics and films (like Quesada was after he left the EiC position). They let him do Doomsday Clock which was obviously supposed to be a big tentpole event/story but got busted down to an unimportant prestige maxiseries of dubious canonicity and eventually led to him just leaving DC entirely.

>>149674829 (OP)
Nobody knew what the fuck was happening.

>>149675271
Also this. I swear they post that like anyone still cared and it just reads like a massive threat.

>>149679652

Johns being sidelined would not by itself be a reason for Didio to sabotage Rebirth unless he was against the whole concept of Rebirth in the first place. Which he was.

>>149679652
Yep. Doomsday Clock was supposed to be the lynchpin of the whole thing, and it became exactly what you described.

People like King got too big of a head and started to soured the whole thing.

Rebirth had some good books:
Ben Percy on Green Arrow
Priest on Deathstroke
New Super-Man
Nightwing

Reminder that Rebirth trades tanked so fucking bad they dragged the new 52 trade sales with them despite the popular characters' vol 1 & 2 selling decently for 4 years

>And while the “Rebirth” GN numbers were OK to start, they very very quickly bombed out. Here’s an example: the first “Rebirth” “Harley Quinn” launched at 13k in 2017. In 2018, it sold just 1818 copies. Kind of shockingly, v1 of the “New 52” “Harley” outsold it at 1894 copies. You can see this over and over again down the line: “Rebirth” “Batman” v1 sold 24k in 2017, and just over 5600 copies in 2018. “Nightwing” v1 sold 12k in 2017, down to 3k in 2018. In fact, not a single “Rebirth” branded book passes 10k in 2018, and it completely slaughtered the sales of the “New 52” editions as well.

I thought despite a few duds Rebirth was largely successful until Death Metal or whatever Snyder's shit was called. I keep seeing these new "bros why did Rebirth fail" threads on /co/ right after the old one gets archived and I have to assume it's some New 52 fag trying to cope and claim Rebirth was a failure

>>149678834
He comes across as an aloof hollywood wannabe who wouldn't lower himself to posting on 4chan, so I doubt it.

>>149677914
>>149683710
I made the thread the other day, and people misinterpreted it as anti-rebirth when I intended it as being upset at DC for fucking up a great idea and start.

I didn't start this thread, but clearly it inspired someone who dislikes rebirth.

>>149674829 (OP)
"Lets do another reboot/retcon while retaining the same people that led to us having to do a reboot/retcon to fix our mistakes"

>>149683928
you know what, I believe you. The previous thread's OP did suggest what you're saying, and it had intelligent discussions too. this one not so much, and I suspect it's the New 52 fan I was talking about

>>149683961
To this day I can't understand why DC hired Bob Harras. The man that almost destroyed Marvel.

Is current DC worth reading? I have very little history with it. I've really only read Johns' Green Lantern, Superman's New Krypton that was happening roughly the same time, and then I tried the New 52, but eventually dropped everything by the time Convergence was happening. I still wonder from time to time if it'd be worth trying to get back in again.

>>149684225
Not really? Absolute Batman and Absolute WW is decent enough I guess

>>149678083
>and they tried to create an entire Chinese counterpart for Superman with that dogshit title
That book is universally agreed to be the best of modern diversity books. By far.

>>149678193
I strongly like them both.
New 52 was better for Batman & Aquaman.
Rebirth was better for Superman & Wonder Woman (Aqua still did very well here)

>>149674829 (OP)
The comics weren't good and the overall tone throughout the entire publisher felt same-y in a way DC hadn't been for over 30 years, all meat and potatoes. And when you see through all the cheap bullshit (relaunch where all titles don't get just one but two #1's and then double dips every month and floods with variant covers) it just... wasn't good. And then finally it came time for the huge event it had been building up to since the Rebirth Special and it... sucked. This on top of the fact that it crashed the sales of the collection department and it hasn't recovered since.

>>149684336
>New 52 was better for Batman
We talking the actual New 52 books once Morrison was done clowning around of the Morrison clowning around books that kept running well into the New 52?

Cause I've read the actual New 52 Batman issues and they were okay. Not exactly anything to write home about.

>>149684225
>Is current DC worth reading?
No. There are literally 0 good titles now, not even the overhyped Absolute Universe titles are readable.

>>149684336
>Rebirth was better for Superman & Wonder Woman
Certainly not for Wonder Woman. While I can understand your pedo tendencies getting tingled with the Jon angle, the lead up to it with the merging was convoluted garbage and ACtion Comics had old man Jurgens return to the character after 20 years to do his garbage evil Jor-El story. But Wonder Woman was a big miss, Cucka returning to his waifu for another run and his highly anticipated Yer One story and they just fell flat, New52 run definitly brought more eyes on her than ever.

>>149674829 (OP)
It just wasn't good.

>>149684336
>Batman
NO

>>149684705
I actually agree the flashback arc was meh but the present Day arc was solid. Liam Sharp did for Diana what Coipel/Ribic did for Thor IMO and I really liked how sympathetic Cheetah was.

My biggest criticism was why in the fuck did Diana not use the lasso on the female Lex Luther to force her to tell her how to undo Cheetah's transformation.

>>149684705
>the lead up to it with the merging was convoluted garbage
I think the book was 50 times better before the merge.

>>149674829 (OP)
Because Jim Lee and all of the DiDio cultists and higher ups who were his and harras friends were livid that Johns fixed the fucking ship and years of brand damage caused by new52.
Johns and his group fought tooth and nail to unfuck Wally West, and DC making Barry fuck everything around him.
Plus the fact that they Hired bendis behind his back, sent him to the movie and tv show department where he saved the damn thing and put 2 good shit in it that was the first Shazam and Aquaman movies, only to be backstabbed by Lee, Nelson and the higher ups for fucking The Rock and his enormous ego, and fucking Bendis and Tom Taylor.

>>149683496
Reminder that they make their money off of floppies and trade sales dont matter.

>>149684225
Dark patterns and absolute Martian Manhunter are the only good comics they’ve printed in the last two or three years.

>claiming Didio sabotaged it when the annual numbers were stagnant for four years
It was more agreeable than the New 52, but they were stuck in the same boat they were in before the New 52 when corporate told them they needed to raise sales or their jobs were on the line. The people in charge should have been fired in the late 00s.

>>149674829 (OP)
Doomsday Clock took too long to come out
And Bendis.

>>149674829 (OP)
The stories weren't very good.

>>149684576
The Snyder books were fucking trash, and Batman and Robin was pretty horrible, too. I wasn't reading Detective.

>>149684225
read Absolute and skip everything else

>>149687926
>The Snyder books were fucking trash,
But incredibly well-selling trash. Snyder was their #1 guy. I had personal distaste for it, but of all the problems the New 52 had, the main Batman book wasn't one of them.
>Batman and Robin was pretty horrible,
Gleason's art was good, Tomasi's stories were okay.
>I wasn't reading Detective.
The first year of Tony Daniel was as bad as his pre-reboot Bataman run. Layman/Fabok was mediocre with good art, Buccellato/Manapul was the same.

>>149674829 (OP)
>Rebirth as a concept worked for GL and Flash, let's do it for everyone
>Let's do Year One for every hero
>Let's do Killing Joke but for every Batman villain

>>149683710
>I have to assume it's some New 52 fag trying to cope and claim Rebirth was a failure

It WAS a failure. I hate Nu52 and Rebirth's whole promise was that it would get rid of all of Nu52 trash. And it didn't. That makes it a failure.

You're thinking of commercial failure. That's not the topic here. Rebirth failed intrinsically, it failed to achieve its mission. That's more important than any money.

>>149674829 (OP)
Johns tried to do lit instead of kino

>>149689773
>That's more important than any money.
Until the company shuts down for lack of sales.

>>149674829 (OP)
it sucked and only Johnshills enjoyed this crap era. That god Snyder aborted it with that god awful Metal series.

>>149684325
is it even selling? i have only heard negative things about it although i guess i haven't seen any chinese reviews of it

>>149684336
Jimbats was retarded. it was an idea that would have happened at some point just because characters get shuffled around in terms of what role they play, but the writing was dogshit. they also significantly changed jim's backstory to be a rough military dude and gave him a look that was unrecognizable in some issues.

fucking trainwreck.

>>149691124
>significantly changed jim's backstory to be a rough military dude
This happened in Year One.
>gave him a look that was unrecognizable in some issues.
This was Capullo catering to himself. Snyder had a character make fun of it in-story.
Regardless of how dumb it was, it didn't hurt sales any, people kept buying bat-bunny.

DC Rebirth did what The New 52 couldn't ..increase sales on the strength of stories and characters that fans actually wanted , and not just short term shock value .I think that angered Dan Didio on a personal level and he had the Power to Sabotage it .

When u openy deny and disrespect your consumer base for years what else are u expecting? Undying loyalty and adulation? I don't expect to get everything I want but damn give me something entertaining and faithful to it's source material instead of presenting reimagined garbage and then pissing in my face when I have valid criticism about it. It's not even about rooting for their failure anymore when they do everything to deserve and earn it. I just want to pay for GOOD products and they just want to tell me I'm toxic because they're not capable of making any. The industry itself needs a retcon/reboot not the stories Most wouldn’t get away with less than one percent of the shit he pulled his editorial antics decimated ever major dcu franchise except Batman for the better part of 2 decades yet there’s still this network of cucked beyond parody shills sucking his shit off for years on end either out of pathological and or ideological agenda and or seditious clique networks optics mongering thinking they ride and veneer of try hard deconstructive “maybe progressive”post modernism as high brow cognitional storytelling and ingratiation to Hollywood and normies, but there was still this duplicitous implied doctrine that the actual fans who cared about these established characters and mythologies were supposed spread ‘‘em and capitulate, when in contrast the Star Wars people are hypersensitive and volatile going ape shit at even glance construing less then one percent of.

Killing the sales success that was rebirth for 5g was career suicide, all he needed to do was the rebirth play out in the tent pole books ,while he could do his dark matter stuff on the side with an actual main line healthy enough to support it, and god forbid actually expand the market rather the shrink into fucking oblivion, he could even have bendis do some man of tomorrow type thing while tomasi kept super sons going with abnett titans getting it’s characters back after sanely edited Hic event about trauma with zoom and decoys to act as a counter to the revamped Harder edged Damien led book it’s not he couldn’t do his fresh new ideas it’s that he couldn’t actively desecrate the established properties and shit all over in motion writers plans so that ei A. the publisher actually makes fucking money and sells by so hundreds of staff aren’t used as personified collateral to keep someone and the rest of their cliques less than worthless soft fat bitch asses employed while actively being a detriment while they get layed off and B not drive talent and creative builders away actively for poorly crafted garbage and have people worth money actuality want to work you and maybe create and develop new things there instead of leaving for YT and indiegogo denouncing the industry as deranged agenda driven cult propagating cultural decay and neo communism I kid you not it got there but no they chose this think about the big indiegogo books starblades and the like at dc Dixon still at dc evs still at dc the big and rising star characters not being tarred and tainted at dc the sad thing is this and everything else I posted o figure out in my aforementioned backstory a decade ago me 10 years ago would have actually made this company preform instead of the middle aged suits that should not be happening and if that’s the case then this tenure of dc editorial is mass conglomerate systemic failure that everyone who facilitated it should be ashamed of

Even more so from the normie perspective the didio-verse comic brand was a absolute disaster, I’m 21 and even I knew it at the time during futures end shit , to this day none of his shills can explain how bar tor not Tim drake the terrible editing the gutting of the titans lore hic bendis supes bendis legion New52 thug Wally Lobdell titans rhato starfire the Wally ban and the rape murder amazons we’re supposed to bring in people familiarized with the tv movie adaptations like tt dcau yj smallville and the like it’s that that made rebirth unavoidable yet never address any of this and this is exactly what alanso got blasted only first but worse and just the blind cult dogmatic hubris of his shills virtue signaling about “ muh nostalgia” when we all know what every in his regime was driven by from yj to titans to Wally vs Barry to nightwing to Jon his silver age fetish not high brow storytelling or character and lore craft and these excretions of his editorial vision are some the most low end wallowing soft brained indulge petulance that not only saturated this industry but that I have ever seen displayed by narrative production may god have mercy on all our souls after this

>>149691611
And if any you try to virtue signal that and those who point this out are sick in the head just remember they primped out hic by using real veterans who put their lives on the line for our and their freedom talking about their trauma and recovery knowing what it was really about and would later do son of kal el as a part of the aborted vanity petty bitch anad marvel dcnu unholy fuck offspring union known as 5g truth justice and a better tomorrow yeah fuck that noise I don’t fuck around with this shit their bitch asses are lucky enough I have restraint and patience to limit this response to a backwater nsfw shock jock low end fanboy forum

>>149691625
whenever you shill and fallate in a beta simp inferiority complex against manga this is what you’re really propping up and what the industry has been building up and giving leverage to for more than half my lifetime https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Didio%20from%3A%40DavidMann95&src=typed_query&f=live https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Bendis%20from%3A%40DavidMann95&src=typed_query&f=live https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Jon%20kent%20from%3A%40DavidMann95&src=typed_query&f=live https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=New52%20from%3A%40DavidMann95&src=typed_query&f=live https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Wally%20from%3A%40DavidMann95&src=typed_query&f=live this and cbr is whats being contortionally catered to not the established mythologies storylines characters and their actual fans this is what cost my lifetime an entire generation of American comics development this is the cultural decay that has lead to western cos steep decline and takeover by Japan in The first place leading things like the hbo max Velma shitshow think of that in the next east vs west thread that’s why is there one in the first place to get you bitches in line

>>149691541
It didn't increase them as high as they needed to be. It wasn't personal, his job was on the line.

>>149675223
>and terrible Batman books
I liked Detective Comics and (Of course, I would have preferred Grayson to have continued). In fact, Detective Comics is far better than Batman since Rebirth.

>>149684225
>Is current DC worth reading?
No, it's a bunch of failed Marvel writers like Tini Howard and Leah Williams and basically spearheaded by Tom Taylor, the worst fucking writer in comics. There's no continuity anymore, the art is atrocious and the only thing DC cares about right now is Absolute (aka Ultimate).

>>149687385
If DiDio had gotten tossed out some time after Final Crisis things would be a lot different.

>>149692167
Sales started slipping under Carlin and he was demoted and replaced with Didio but it happened twice with Dan and he wasn't fired until it happened a third time. A really well-liked guy, they gave him too many chances.

>>149691541
It didn't increase them, they got a short term bump because of all the #1 and double shipping and then they fell down. And their tpb sales went to shit too.
Also the quality of the comics is probably the worst they ever had in the past 25 years.

>>149683496
Isn't that normal? People who wanted it had already bought it. There's a limited number of readers for something like that. Not every book is a perennial seller like Watchmen or Maus.

>>149686327
that's not true
DC was making a half billion each and every year on catalog sales like All Star Superman, Watchmen, COIE, etc., and including other TPBs through Lock Down.

>>149693932
lol that’s not even remotely true thats the entire industry’s trade sales combined

How many years do we have before we get the new 52 "was pretty good actually" crowd and they bring back a couple of those versions of the characters for an event or something? It's gotta be within the next decade.

>>149675223
This

Did it? I thought they were still using this continuity.

>>149694128
52 Animal Man and Swamp Thing were more than pretty good.

>>149676857
/thread

>>149694548
Writers can just choose what to ignore or acknowledge now so that's true to an extent.

>>149694563
I barely remember animal man, but it was written by Lemire so I should probably go back and check it out, so I'll give you that one, but Snyder's swamp thing was literally just another tired rehash of Moore's run. Everything he does is just ripping off someone else. I feel like the one dude in the Animaniac's sketches who can see the giant chicken is a giant chicken when you people talk positively about Snyder, it's fucking maddening.

>>149674829 (OP)
Didio and Johns got cold war over who is the head of the comics. When Johns focused on movies Didio got his opportunity to destroy what Johns built in Rebirth. He hired Bendis and Tom King and they destroyed Rebirth and whole momentum off it.

>>149678083
Chinese Supes was good

>>149678193
That anon is Didiot himself

>>149684225
It isn't but give the Absolute line a try

>>149684705
shit taste/10

>>149694603
>literally just another tired rehash of Moore's run.
I wouldn't say that at all. It was a streamlined/dumbed-down for movie adaptation approach to Swamp Thing. Swamp Thing and Abby versus Arcane, The Green versus the Rot. Moore was largely not interested in Arcane, only usuing him in one arc and a single issue where he was being tormented in Hell, and the concept of the Rot didn't even exist in his run. Swampy in Snyder's run was also literally Alec as opposed to a plant who only thought he was Alec.

>>149691625
>>149691640
Kys retards

>>149692132
Even then, they fucked Absolute Supes by giving the book to Jason Aaron of all people.

>>149691640
Who is davidmann?

>>149694128
Going by thos thread, it's already happening.

>>149695185
Professional comic journalist hard-core didio shill and postmodernist SJW ideologue essentially the people who took over and destroyed this industry

>>149675526
There was a long term plan but Johns couldn't deliver it.

>>149694548
continuity was reset after Dark Knights Metal made everything canon, then again after Dark Crisis said "eh... mostly everything", they're currently making a New History of the DC Universe which is supposed to set in stone the timeline of events, but so far this year DC has printed two contradictory Superman origins in the monthly Superman books, Batman and Superman continuity is currently a mess between Slott's book and H2SH