I'm struggling to find the right words for this, but I've been watching Superman (1996) and Justice League (2001) and it's fucking insane to me how they're like night and day in terms of animation quality.

In Superman, everyone is beautiful, even the nothing side characters.

In Justice League, it's not enough that all the background characters and uglier, they even made Superman's face uglier. It's almost like they thought it was very important to... what? Age him up 5 years? When I was much younger, I vaguely remember Superman showing up in the futuristic Batman Beyond era (not sure what actual show it was an episode of, since I know Justice League and maybe others had its share of time travel episodes to that era), not through time travel, but just by continuing to exist without aging.

Drawing quality is different from animation quality, and both of those things are different from color quality, but they all just seem so much worse in Justice League.

AND IT'S A FUCKING FIVE YEAR DIFFERENCE.

Justice League probably isn't as bad as Young Justice, but it's incredible how early we can already see the rot of capeshit.

Superman is so relentlessly beautiful and well animated in even the most banal and worthless filler episodes, but Justice League couldn't pull it together and WOW me with it's first episode.

Does anyone know any actual DC business history here? One day did Warner Brothers look at their profit margins, and get some computers and were sufficiently impressed, they fired off 90% of their animation staff and hired a bunch of overworked teenagers to replace them or something?

What in the fuck happened IN FIVE YEARS?

Even the soundtrack. Superman TAS is so good it's actually displaced the John Williams score in my mind, I find it difficult to remember how it goes, and when I try to hum it, I just get derailed into humming Superman TAS's theme.

Justice League sounds like a discount royalty free ripoff of the National Anthem.(cont'd)

>>149731017 (OP)
Batman solos.

>>149731017 (OP)
STAS ended with turpin's death, also 5 years went by too in universe, so this affected clark deeply.

>>149731017 (OP)
I forget the details but the cheekbones and facial details on Superman and Wonder Woman are removed in season 2. There's a watchtower database video about it you could probably skim. I think Justice League was animated digitally so that's the answer to why Superman is better.

>>149731017 (OP)
>Does anyone know any actual DC business history here? One day did Warner Brothers look at their profit margins, and get some computers and were sufficiently impressed, they fired off 90% of their animation staff and hired a bunch of overworked teenagers to replace them or something?
It's largely the same staff, anon. Old guys had a hard time adjusting to digital, and to make matters worse often think digital is better and more free so they get hooked onto doing things. that aged terribly, like giving things this flat, dead lineweight.
And here's the other problem- Justice League has 7 heroes with different aesthetics that all have to share screen time and interact with a big universe that isn't just their own niches.
Batman and Superman TAS both had very definite design philosophies. Batman is dark,he's in a dark city, music is slow and deep. Superman is light, he's in a shiny bright city, his music is upbeat and brassy. They even nixed the BTAS/Fleisher inspired look for STAS to set it apart.
Now JL has to go to all these different settings, set up different characters, you need aliens, modern pedestrians,WWII soldiers, demons, and all sorts of new settings every other episode. You have a few leads who are sci-fi based, some that are modern day, street level based, and one that's fantasy based. As a result, everything ends up feeling generic to not feel out of place. You can remember a Gotham or Metropolis visual, but anytime you see a modern city in JL it's nondescript.
It's a more ambitious project than STAS, but it suffers for that.

>>149731156
Don't forget that Darkseid also brainwashed him to attack Earth and left everyone distrusting of Superman.

yeah the art in Timm's shows always got worse over time, it wasn't unique to Superman, hell it wasn't even the most egregious

>149731491
I legitimately used to think the different art style coupled with the name change meant The New Adventures of Batman took place in a similar but distinct continuity.

>>149731156
>STAS ended with turpin's death
That happened at the end of season 1.

quality is all over the place, but Batman: TAS is generally animated better. when they switched to the S:TAS designs, it made me realise just how rubbish Superman's simpler designs were, to begin with.

>>149731491
Why did you pick the three designs that are objectively better than the older counterparts?

>>149731700
>but Batman: TAS is generally animated better. when they switched to the S:TAS designs, it made me realise just how rubbish Superman's simpler designs were, to begin with.
It's the opposite, BTAS looks better but is full of inconsistent, blobby animation, TNBA looks worse but the animation is very slick overall.
BTAS has some standout episodes, but it's not the entire show.

>>149731204
>I forget the details but the cheekbones and facial details on Superman and Wonder Woman are removed in season 2. There's a watchtower database video about it you could probably skim.
I'm sorry, anon, could you help me find the video you're talking about? I can't find it.
https://www.youtube.com/@dcauwatchtower/search?query=superman%20justice%20league

You should look into all the animation studios that Tiny Toons went through. Some episodes are extremely off-model.

>>149731736
even if you like the overall designs better stuff like the facial and body proportions are objectively downgrades

>>149731017 (OP)
I dunno how many other people here have noticed this, but something I've consistently seen with any cartoon (or anime) property that's had both cel-era animation and digital-era animation is that when it transitions from cel to digital, the color palette take an immediate nosedive and never recovers: the shadows are greyer, the contrast is lessened, the colors in general are less varied and definitely less vibrant, the whole thing just looks significantly more flatter overall

>>149731991
>even if you like the overall designs better stuff like the facial and body proportions are objectively downgrades
It's weird that right as this thread's going on, I happen upon an episode of Superman where Jimmy shows him these self-aware newspaper comics. Especially the one at the bottom.

>>149732260
I dont understand the Mxyzptlk one
>the last one
lol

>>149732359
>I dont understand the Mxyzptlk one
THEY GAVE HIM AN ERECTION FOR SUPERMAN.

>>149732563
No...

>>149731779
igotit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTlYNSwzK_0

>>149732820
Thank you, anon!

>>149731991
I disagree. It's a cartoon, not an anatomy textbook, I don't care that the designs are stylized. They look better, they use color better, I like the silhouette.

>>149731017 (OP)
Justice League is a vastly better show and ur a faget

>>149733092
>Justice League is a vastly better show and ur a faget
What do you like about it so much? Honest question.

>>149731017 (OP)
This gets fixed in Unlimited, anon. Chill.

>>149733207
JL was a bunch of really well written two-parters with lots of good character moments for the entire league
Unlimited was a little worse and episodes were shorter but it made up for that in sheer breadth of cast and content

>>149731025
what instrument?

>>149732260
>>149732359
The McGurk the is a reference to what he does earlier in the episode, where he wanders into a museum yelling for McGurk (who is Rodin’s The Thinker AND is direct reference to his first appearance in the comic books). Incidentally, the whole comic strip thing is probably a reference to how Mxy’s first PUBLISHED appearance was actually in the Superman comic strip because the actual issue he was supposed to appear in got delayed. Also here’s some of the other in-jokes in the comic strips
>The kid in "Dini the Meany" is Paul Dini and how that’s how Bruce Timm draws him
>Gleen stars Glen Murakami who was the Art Director on STAS (and a big Peanuts fan). The other kid is apparently Shane Glines, who was a character designer at the time.
>Dan Danger stars Dan Riba, a storyboard artist
>I know most of you probably already know that Mr. Mxyzptlk’s writers are the guys made Superman but I have to mention it for completion sakes
>Zub Street is just Timm commenting on how badly drawn most newpaper comics are

>>149731736
Freeze is an objective downgrade. I'm torn on Babs and Ivy. I used to always think the new designs were better but now I'm starting to like the OG ones more

>>149731491
The only designs that were worse were Joker, Freeze and maybe Mad hatter. All the females got better you faggot.

>>149731025
the flute, probably
the trombone is way too hard for him and, of course, the cello too heavy
and don't even get me started on the flugelhorn

>>149731017 (OP)
While collaboration with Japanese studios was frequent, the majority of BTAS and STAS episodes were sub-outsourced to Korean studios. The yen-won exchange rate spiked in '97 and lasted to around 2005, which meant it was more profitable for Japanese studios to increase the amount of Korean outsourcing. American corporate didn't care because it meant lowered costs regardless. So in order to maintain animation consistency with inferior animation talent, art styles needed to be simplified, and of course the quality was going to be worse regardless.

The 90s were a boom era for animationn, but that couldn't last. By the 00s budgets were slashed. Lowered animation quality, no more scores with real instruments.

>>149736908
>The 90s were a boom era for animationn, but that couldn't last.
Besides, Batman and Superman, what's some good animation I should check out from this era, that I wouldn't already be familiar with from growing up on Nick/Cartoon Network?

>>149731017 (OP)
I think he just had a fucked up face for one season

>>149737134
As far as action cartoons go, Gargoyles (not the Goliath Chronicles, different showrunner, terrible), Mighty Max, The Legend of Calamity Jane, Extreme Ghostbusters, Phantom 2040. For action comedies, Freakazoid and Earthworm Jim. For edgier cartoons, Aeon Flux, The Maxx, and Spawn.

>mfw realizing I share a board with people who don't think JLU is flawless

>>149737446
>anon is a tasteless fatso who's never said no to a stale capeshit as opposed to good capekino
>posts image of a disgusting fatso who's never said no to a stale bag of doritos.
Like poetry!

>>149737446
JLU is a fantastic show, anon, /co/ is just running out of things to be contrarian and subversive about

>>149737489
JLU is legitimately great, though they were working within their limitations. Had to use digital (though they fixed the colors with season 2 of JL), couldn't afford TMS anymore though the Korean studios weren't too bad, couldn't afford to use real instruments for the score anymore so it's all synthesizers.

>>149731017 (OP)
2001 Supes looks gaunted and tired, amazing how the detail in the cheek bones makes that

The ladies sure were fascinated by GL.

>>149737577
The first episode of JLU looks like dogshit.
I don' t want to be a contrarian faggot, but it leaves a sick taste in my mouth.

I am ABSOLUTELY WILLING TO GIVE IT A SHOT, if you're willing to point me to a specific Season/Episode number when it gets good.

I skimmed JLU S1E1, and I saw Green Lantern protecting White Guy, and Green Arrow from WW2 military guys, and it just looked like gay ass AI generated slop. I would rather watch Dragon Ball and I was not impressed by the first season of Dragon Ball.

>>149737446
it's not ACTUALLY flawless, but for minor reasons
>Bat embargo
>redesigns (even if they happened earlier)
>stupid Batman Beyond epilogue

>>149737644
>>stupid Batman Beyond epilogue
The one where we learn that Bruce Wayne injected Terry McGuiness's father with Bruce's DNA, and as a result Bruce is genetically Terry's father, even though he didn't cream in Terry's mother.

>>149737639
>saw Green Lantern protecting White Guy, and Green Arrow from WW2 military guys
barely coherent

>>149737682
If you're the anon I'm responding to, you know exactly what I'm talking about. If not, then you don't fucking matter to this discussion.

>>149737711
Yeah I'm him, you're retarded

>>149737639
this post is gay ass AI generated slop

Superman had the extra lines on his face to show how he was still haunted by Superman's finale. By season 2 his face is back to how it used to be showing he stopped stressing over it. That's also why they're mostly gone when he reappears in Beyond.

>>149737639
>I skimmed JLU S1E1, and I saw Green Lantern protecting White Guy, and Green Arrow from WW2 military guys, and it just looked like gay ass AI generated slop.

>>149737731
>Yeah I'm him, you're retarded
They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

>>149737791
You do know I'm complaining about how you phrased your reply right? You have poor english, and now you wasted time grabbing screenshots like a moron.

>>149731025
Electric guitar Batman shredding!

>>149737864
>You do know I'm complaining about how you phrased your reply right? You have poor english, and now you wasted time grabbing screenshots like a moron.
I began this interaction, by asking in good faith if or when does JLU get good. You responded by pretending not to understand what I'm saying.
I don't expect a good faith response at this point, so go ahead, get your roll out.
>u mad bro
>lol nice wall text, didn't read, lol
>I noticed a very minor spelling error, ESL, opinion discarded
What do ya got?

>>149737639
For the Man Who Has Everything, second episode. Hawk and Dove that follows is it a bit eh, but pretty much every episode after that is high quality in that first season.

>>149731017 (OP)
Superman got wrinkles from being brutally anally raped by Russian BVLLs

>>149731491
The right is better. BTAS was inconsistent with character designs. You had humans who looked super realistic and then you had humans that looked very cartoony.

>>149736403

>>149738105
I can get Batgirl and Poison Ivy, but Catwoman got fucking butchered in BTNA, she looks like a weird alien demon or something

>>149732077
Animators were accidentally making their cartoons look better by editing them on tape, it made them darker. You can see it on any HD re-release of a cartoon or anime from the 80s/90s, the colors get much brighter since it's film to digital. So when they went fully digital, everything looked brighter because they were using the digital equivalents of the colors they were using all along.

>>149738105
Her costume sucks, but her having black hair was the proper look. A lot of the BTAS designs were influenced by the movies, which Warner Bros pressured the studio to implement, like Penguin being a penguin like mutant.

>>149731491
TNBA's aesthetic works really well for the flashbacks in Batman Beyond, at least

>>149731017 (OP)
>What the fuck happened?
Buccal Fat removal?

>>149738148
I think it's between her and Riddler as to whose design got fucked over the most. Joker, Killer Croc, and Mr Freeze were a tier lower on downgraded design. Everyone else felt like a side grade though I feel Penguin and Scarecrow actually improved

>>149734820
your mother

>>149738105
This looks better.

>>149738508
None of this is true

>>149738105
The old design looks cheesy. The later on has a more gothic feel to it.

>>149738565
The only reason Penguin looked like he did in BTAS was due to the Tim Burton movie. The way he looks in TNA is how he was meant to look like in BTAS.

>>149734058
JLU's first two seasons had a very strong running plotline though which more than made up for the weaker character focus. Season 3 of JLU was definitely the weakest overall though since going back to more episodic adventures but with just one part stories just made it weaker overall and didn't play to JLU's strengths.

>>149731017 (OP)
>What in the fuck happened IN FIVE YEARS?
Darkseid

>>149738045
>For the Man Who Has Everything, second episode. Hawk and Dove that follows is it a bit eh, but pretty much every episode after that is high quality in that first season.
Thank you, anon. I don't know if you're the guy I was arguing with or not, but I will concede that episode was good enough for me to move on to the next one. I didn't know George W Bush was canon.

>>149739304
>Morgan Lafey
Is this a reference to Anton Svandor LaVey (formerly Anthony Levy) founder of the Church of Satan?

>>149731674
I was still confused as to why it was such a big deal that this ONE character who I don't recall ever being shown in the series mattered more than the many people who were killed in every 5 or so episodes or even THAT one. Pretty sure there were at least 30 or so people that got ended before Dan got taken out.

>>149737644
>>stupid Batman Beyond epilogue
For as long as I live, I'll believe my head-canon of this over any actual DC canon.

Waller was totally lying. Every fucking word of it. She made literally all of that story up 30 seconds before she started talking. She has a list of all of Bruce's illegitimate children and she knows Terry isn't on the list. She's totally paid the Phantasm to kill people before, but it's secretly hilarious to her that she'd use her to kill Terry's nobody parents. And the nano-injection story is just her elaborate way of calling Terry's dad a cuck right to his stupid fucking face. She's just a crazy old lady who gets her dusty old rocks off spitting in the face of GODS.

I prefer to live in the reality where that is the canon ending to JLU.

>>149731491
I wasn't crazy about a lot of the changes in tnba but it didn't feel cheap in the way justice league did. artistic difference rather than a straight downgrade.

>>149738148
bruce timmverse in general badly butchered catwoman. only good episode she got 'was almost got im'

>>149739826
whats up with that face

>>149740310
she would have distracted from Timm's Bruce/Babs obsession

>>149738188
off-subject it's kinda wild how most joker episodes were handed off to studios who did subpar-to-decent turnarounds

if this were made right now, DC would've spent every dollar to get the best anim studio to make him look as pristinely psychotic as this image:

>>149739304
Season's 3's running plotline was the Legion of Doom. Plus two episodes devoted to Hawkshit.
>>149739658
Terrible Turpin was in multiple episodes beforehand. He was also created by and based on Jack Kirby.

>>149740228
That's the trade off when they switched from Kids WB to Cartoon Network. At Kids WB, you got the hefty budget due to the ad revenue specifically targeting children between segments, but at the cost that you had to tone down violence and adhere to a bunch of awful demands that Bruce and others weren't going to tolerate. Then you had Cartoon Network, which always varied between a shoestring budget to something moderate because advertisement strategy was always a mixture of things due to the varying age demographic from 4 year olds to men in their early 20's. It's why you would have commercials ranging from Navy recruitment ads to Strawberry Shortcake back during Toonami in the early 2000's.

>>149740480
I dunno, I have all these reaction images saved so I just use em.

>>149740576
(in BTaS in particuar, at least)

>>149740877
Interesting.
So if I want to watch quality 90's cartoons, I should go back and watch WBKids shows?

>>149731017 (OP)
>fucking insane
It's moderately notable at best. Hyperbole on the modern internet is such garbage.

>>149742086
Watch 90's nickelodeon and cartoon network shows

>>149731017 (OP)
The transition to digital art was rough across the whole industry.

>>149731491
The art change for TNBA was primarily to make it easier for the animators to do consistently. It definitely paid off, because while a lot of the character designs ate shit, they moved a lot more smoothly.

>>149737666
Bruce didn't do that, it was that bitch Waller's fault because she got it in her head that Bruce's genetics meant something. She even tried to have Terry's parents killed after leaving a theatre (showing a Grey Ghost movie) to try and replicate Bruce's trauma. The would-be assassin, the Phantasm, refused to do it because she didn't want to see another Bruce Wayne happen.

>>149739579
No, dumbass, she's King Arthur's witch half-sister. Morgan Le Fay, as in the Fair Folk. Asshole fairies.

>>149732563
well - of course
every gets diamond hard for Supes
even the batgod manages this rare - for it - feat

>>149735164
Not just that but
>Dini the Meany by Bill Wemissu
Paul Dini as Calvin, but the name references Dennis the Menace. and the cartoonist name is basically saying "Bill [Watterson], we miss u"

Zub Street is Timm taking a shot at modern comic strips but specifically using the style of Momma by Mell Lazarus

strictly in visual animation quality
teentitans>>>justiceleague/jlu

>>149731213
The style stuff is so important. That's why Batman Beyond is awesome, it fully commits to its style the way that BTAS did. For comparison try watching The Zeta Project, a Batman Beyond spinoff drawn much more generic. Without the mildly lighting it looks like garbage.

>>149738105
Not a huge fan of either look. The facial features of the left with the body and color scheme of the right could work with some tweaking, but I think they missed the mark with both.

>>149737134
HBO Spawn is kind of uneven but cool.

>>149731017 (OP)
I think Timm wanted to make Superman have a slightly more, I dunno, unique face. He had an extremely NPC-like design in the original show, and I guess this was his attempt to make Superman look a little manlier or something. Problem is it also makes it look as though he aged twenty years, whereas Bruce actually looks younger than he did in the original Animated Series (admittedly an issue that started in TNBA).

Ultimately, the main problem with Timm's Superman design really just lies in his eyes. Giving him flesh-colored sclera was a stupid idea and I don't fucking understand why he did it.

>>149743993
Bruce Timm's eye designs are so fucking inconsistent and it bugs the hell out of me.

Also, Timm developed some kinda of thing for cheekbones at some point. It's not just Clark, early Diana and J'onn both also had pronounced cheekbones. After season 1, both Clark and Diana lost their pronounced cheekbones.

>>149743993
I thought the flesh eyes suited Clark's character nicely for whatever reason. Looking like a background character made him feel more like an everyman despite being, you know, Superman. That said, I think I'm saying this from a biased point of view because I mostly associate flesh eyes with Supes and Bright Noa from Gundam so they're more "heroic" than "generic" to me.

>>149743993
>>149744024
In Modern Masters, Timm talks about how he had a hard time figuring out Superman's face, until the crew put on a bunch of cheap old Mighty Hercules cartoons as a joke and Timm suddenly thought it was the perfect model for Superman
As for the flesh eyes, I think he wanted to evoke the squint from the Fleischer carroons

>>149731017 (OP)
>What in the fuck happened IN FIVE YEARS?
Y2K and 911

>>149731491
Why did Batgirl start wearing dish washing gloves

>>149745355
hand-drawn to digital
also budget cuts

>>149744024
Weird since people here keep saying he draws the same face over and over, now he's "inconsistent"

bad thread

>>149734058
>a bunch of really well written two-parters
A majority of those two-parters was dull beyond belief. Even as a kid who would eat up anything capeshit I was bored. I'll give you Hereafter and Dr. Destiny episodes but otherwise Justice League is incredibly boring.

>>149746580
The second season was great, it was just the first season where they had growing pains trying to figure out how to write interesting stakes and moments for this ridiculously powered group. Big Seven Justice League was never a particularly good comic until Morrison in the 90s, and his stories weren't suited for a television series at all, so they had to come up with ideas all on their own.

>>149746646
>Big Seven Justice League was never a particularly good comic until Morrison in the 90s, and his stories weren't suited for a television series at all, so they had to come up with ideas all on their own.
How does that work? What are these ideas that work better in comics than on screen?

>>149746580
You were probably a dumb kid, most are.

>>149746965
Still not dumb enough to enjoy that abysmal slop.

>>149746861
They're just too weird for a normie- and kid-friendly cartoon. Compare and contrast Morrison's introductory arc with the JL three-part pilot. Both are about aliens subverting and then invading Earth, but the JL cartoon dumbed it down to a typical War of the Worlds-imitation.

>>149747551
The comic looks like a ripoff of Dune. Am I being unfair?

>>149747590
Eh, maybe superficially. The entire run was a grab bag of concepts. It goes from this to a sad story about a self-sacrificing android, followed by a war between angels, followed by The Key trying to gain ascendance by trapping the Leaguers into Elseworlds Dreams where the success of his plans hinges on their breaking free, then Lex Luthor creating his own Injustice Gang and attempting a hostile corporate takeover of the Justice League which has the ripple effect of creating a dark future where Darkseid has conquered Earth, and so on. Too galaxy-brained for Timm and his crew.

>>149731017 (OP)
shitty in comparison to anime

>>149731736
New ivy looks like shit.
What are you smoking?

>>149748680
Since you asked, I'm smoking prime kush, but I do not make it my personality, so don't give me that shit.

>>149748680
She's a different kind of attractive.

>>149739826
Interesting theory, and it is in character for Waller.

>>149746249
No, not in the real world. They happened to Superman and that's why he looks tired in the 2001 show

>>149749015
I like the comics' version where the TNBA Ivy was a plant construct by the BTAS Ivy.

>>149731017 (OP)
Is it though?

>>149739826
My headcanon is that the Cadmus guys just thought the whole concept was fucking retarded and ignored orders and just made it so Warren's DNA made black hair and blue eyes and didn't bother with actually remapping his entire DNA to imitate Batman.
She was getting people who managed to clone superpowered aliens and engineer metas to clone a normal man who ended up with a heart condition. It's a waste, and risky considering it's Bruce wayne, who even if he doesn't kill you as Batman could sue you into oblivion or otherwise make your life hell.

>>149731491
Poison Ivy and Batgirl are upgrades.

>>149740877
Kids WB! actually had very few restrictions compared to Fox Kids where Spiderman and X-Men got censored to high hell, Bruce Timm said that when they revived TNBA, the restrictions Kids WB placed on then only amounted to two paragraphs compared to the 5 pages of no-no stuff over on Fox. They still didn’t have as much creative freedom as they would on Cartoon Network, but you tell me which other children’s programming block from the 90s would air stuff like the STAS finale or the Batman Beyond movie (even the censored version). Realistic guns, alcohol and cigarettes, characters openly talking about death and killing (they even show a a guy being executed in a gas chamber!), cleavage and other kinds of sex appeal, sometimes even blood… the only annoying thing is the flashes to censor punches, but even on Cartoon Network that shit didn’t go away until JLU got on a later timeslot.

>>149751140
Yeah, I don't know what that anon is talking about. TNBA got away with way more than other shows around the time.

>>149751140
Yeah, Timm got a lucky streak with the timing of his shows, getting approval on two new networks before they got nervous and started clamping down. Spider-Man got hit harder by Fox's BS&P though they brought that on themselves by going with a less stylized art style. The Zeta Project on Kids' WB got brutalized, there was a part in the second season where they just did episodes where the conflict was a natural disaster because the execs were rejecting all their ideas for human antagonists.

>>149751552
>there was a part in the second season where they just did episodes where the conflict was a natural disaster because the execs were rejecting all their ideas for human antagonists.
Wow. Tell me more.

>>149752052
https://youtu.be/rhp9gWiHl10?t=2872
9/11 screwed them
>By the end of season two I couldn't get any stories by the network except where the bad guy was weather.

>>149752420
Didn’t they also have to censor the Batman Beyond movie because of Columbine? It’s fucking wild that they originally even considered the uncut version airing on TV.

>>149751552
They must have relaxed later because Static Shock had episodes about gang violence, drugs and even an almost school shooting, all with realistic guns.

>>149752495
May have been a bit of a factor, that was all on Timm for being stubborn and doing what he wanted rather than what they specifically asked for, a TV-Y movie.

>>149749292
ithink that was more-or-less burned into general DCaU continuity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC0IAC3urUA

>>149752495
sorta: https://youtu.be/YOLFTqULZ9w?si=D8i0sLeR6VdYb_yq

(funny thing i feel like this movie may've influenced grant morrison's joker writing from the 2000's onward)

>>149752511
I think as long as you’re doing a moral lesson censors ease up on such things.Spider-man TAS and gargoyles similarly were able to use those loopholes on their networks

>>149749292
The tie-in comics were commendable in trying to tie BTAS and TNBA together, but TNBA was really more of a soft reboot that chose to mostly disregard BTAS for better continuity with Superman TAS.

>>149749195
It's not a theory, it's a delusion. I literally force my brain to not acknowledge the actual episode as canon because it so drastically conflicts with themes throughout Batman Beyond but also in Return of the Joker.
>>149750598
>My headcanon is that the Cadmus guys just thought the whole concept was fucking retarded and ignored orders and just made it so Warren's DNA made black hair and blue eyes
I like the "good enough for government work" attitude at play here.

>>149753563
That's Templeton's take but not Timm's who had his Poison Ivy design lobotomized alongside everyone else in A Better World. That series did a lot of weird things Timm wouldn't have agreed with.

>>149754357
>I literally force my brain to not acknowledge the actual episode as canon because it so drastically conflicts with themes throughout Batman Beyond but also in Return of the Joker.
How so?

>>149755456
That Terry is a very different Batman than Bruce was and that's a good thing. Their differences bring them together and the syntheses of their disparate character traits creates a Batman that is stronger than any Batman they would be solo. Having them be literally father and son throws all of that out the window and invokes this weird biological determinism thing.

It's like people making Frodo and Sam gay for each other. People can just be friends, goddamnit. Let Terry and Bruce be friends! They don't have to be related! I hate it!

>>149755585
I'm just amused that this is one of the few things I remember from my dad having me watch all of Justice League, back when it came out. At the time (and still today) he's much more interested in superhero shit than I ever was. When brought this plot point up to him, he doesn't even remember it. I had no idea it was such a controversial point though.

>>149755657
You should bring it up to him again but then add the part in about Waller making it all up at the very end. Just say you forgot there was an extra 30 seconds you saw on a different clip. Let that live in his head. It's better than the reality.

>>149752420
>>149752495
I'm watching Zeta Project right now. The first episode
>previously on
Did this show start with a 2 part miniseries like Battlestar Galactica or something? What did I miss?

>>149755685
>You should bring it up to him again but then add the part in about Waller making it all up at the very end. Just say you forgot there was an extra 30 seconds you saw on a different clip. Let that live in his head. It's better than the reality.
The problem is that I don't think the show lives in his head at all at this point. I think he liked it when it came out, and these days he's watching new shit, and purging the old shit from his mind. I'm not sure what he watches these days except the latest variant of The Walking Dead.

>>149755585
Waller admits that the genetic stuff was nonsense and that it was his own choices that led him to becoming Batman, that's what his whole crisis was all about.
>No matter what you did or didn't do, I was gonna end up being Bruce's carbon copy. It was fate.
>You know, the Lord's been a great comfort to me all these years. Try not to look so surprised. Yeah, I've got a lot to answer for when I meet him, but I'd like to believe that for all the harm I've caused, I've also done some good. Maybe the angels need a sharp sword too. Like the Good Book says, he moves in mysterious ways. His plan is a mystery, but here's what isn't. He gave us free will. We choose our own fate... for good or ill. I've known Bruce Wayne for over 50 years, and I've been keeping an eye on you your whole life. You're not Bruce's clone. You're his son. There are similarities, mind you, but more than a few differences too. You don't quite have his magnificent brain, for instance. You do have his heart, though. And for all that fierce exterior, I've never met anyone who cared as deeply about his fellow man as Bruce Wayne, except maybe you. You want to have a little better life than the old man's? Take care of the people who love you or don't. It's your choice.
>>149755766
Zeta debuted in an episode of Batman Beyond. The difference between the two in tone is funny, the NSA are far more trigger-happy and uncaring about collateral damage in the Beyond episode, wanting that robot at all costs.

>>149755906
You still really don't get why I don't like the canon ending. You even put it in your greentext!
>You do have his heart, though.
NO. Terry has TERRY'S HEART.
>Anon, it's just a figure of speech
No, it's biological determinism and it sucks all the magic out of the special something that formed between the bitter old man and the edgy teen.

>>149754644
>Poison Ivy design lobotomized alongside everyone else in A Better World

eh well, maybe it's the plant clone being lobotomized (or it's a different history)

>>149756828
Trying to explain why everyone looks different is overthinking it. Mad Hatter went from a tall guy to a short guy. It was a visual reboot, all the characters always looked this way.