Thread 149931266

>remember have a conversation about why cape comics have awful fight choreography despite being an action heavy genre
>someone pointed out that artists rarely draw blows connecting or impacting, instead they just draw the aftermath
i never realized how spot on that was and how much of a difference it makes in something like pic related. why are cape comics like this? this isnt even a east vs west thing because shit like Luthor Strode doesnt struggle with this

>>149931266 (OP)
I think it's a symptom of a much larger problem

It's not just that they're choosing the same action poses again and again... but they're not even thinking about it in terms of movement/animation at all, they're thinking of it like a cover

>>149931764
that is to say, when they draw two characters fighting, it's not actually a split second moment in time but rather is a carefully designed pose that communicates "they are fighting". It's more of a symbol representing the fight, rather than the fight itself

>>149931786
This makes more sense when you look at actual covers.
There may be a fight in the cover... but that fight is not the fight itself, it's more of a represenation of the fight.

The problem comes when artists only ever want to do covers, they have no interest in interior work, and so when they are forced to draw panels... they make them into covers as much as possible.

This is doubly compounded by the fact that comic artists tend not to be paid very well and so having a portfolio of covers and generally cool looking drawings that they can sell in isolation is a source of money for them so they do it more.

>>149931266 (OP)
Wouldn’t this kill joker? His head should be flying off next panel right?

>>149931819
The Death of Superman is a very prominent example of this. It was clearly made so that almost every page of the fight can be sold as a standalone piece of art.
It reads less like a story and more like an artbook

The only good fights I’ve seen in comics are Superman books, invincible and a couple of Chuck Dixon punisher comics

>>149931266 (OP)
>shit like Luthor Strode doesnt struggle with this
Because there's no fucking story in Luther Strode, fight scenes are all the book has
I'm not picking on LS but it's got the barest of plot and exists as a portfolio of the artist/"writer" which again is fine

>>149931821
No, Diana is established to be a compassionate no-kill character

>>149931842
I enjoy it in this story though because the art was good to me and the fight feels like a large scale battle

>>149931862
An additional cause for this kind of behaviour lies in comics past.

In the beginning, comics were like garfield, just newspaper strips in a corner. Their space was very limited and so if they wanted to tell a longer story... it had to be condensed.
Even when they got their own dedicated comic books... the stories did not immediately become longer, they remained very condensed.
It was simply the common practice at the time to describe entire scenes of a story with one singular image.

This scene of Batman being briefed about something happening at the bank would be done in a singular panel, showing Batman, the police, the bank, and the water flooding out of the bank all in the same shot.
It's not a snapshot moment in time, it's more just a drawing accomodating the story.
This entire page here, in a more modern comic would take the entire issue to conclude.

>>149931862
jesus fucking CHRIST that perspective

>>149931922
But even when the action is dragged out across the whole issue, many artists are still thinking in the same way.
>If I have 1 panel to draw the whole scene, I will draw it like this
>If I have 2 panels to draw the whole scene, I will daw it like this
>If I have 20 panels ot draw the whole scene, I will draw it like this
But this is the wrong approach. They're not thinking in terms of animation, they're thinking in terms of represenation.

This is why the fights are so boring, because they never think about the fight itself, but rather just the fighting as a symbol.
>and then Batman fought the Joker and won
rather than
>and then Batman lunged at the Joker
>but the Joker ducked and kicked him off his feet
>but then Batman pulled out his grappling hook and
>and then the Joker rolled to the left
>etc
The latter is animation, while the former is just a symbol

One thing I can't help but notice is how western writers always seem to interpet unfathomable cosmic power as two characters getting big and shooting lasers at each other

>>149931786
>>149931266 (OP)
What do you think of Tradd Moore?

just storytime Death of Superman instead of making these disjointed observations about comics from wildly different decades.

No wonder manga has been winning for a very long time. Just check Vegeta vs Recoome in the DBZ manga. Better than any fight sequence in comics that I’ve ever read.

>>149932056
I think he suffers from a different problem.
His problem is that he doesn't see the panels as windows into a living breathing world, but rather as geometric shapes to be toyed with.
He sees the comic itself as the art, rather than the content of the comic.

You can like this, it certainly takes alot of skill and has artistic merit, but to me, it's akin to the drummer in the band showing off during the vocalists solo, it may be impressive, but it's out of line.

Besides aforementioned aspect where the real money is in resale value of the pages there's also far less ability to dwell on fight scenes due to writers having control over how much time is devoted to them. A lot of manga fight scenes are based on how long the artist chooses to depict them, not another person's decision, unless it's an editor stepping in. But overall, they like the long fight scenes, which is they're so known for it.
There's also the fact that a lot of comic page composition is based off rules and guides editors have imposed for decades. This page, for example. A lot of obscured faces(something editors HATE because they want their characters visible), partial figures, no backgrounds. but the floor, cropped figures. This is all stuff that would be nitpicked to hell and back if it was one out of 22 pages in American comics. But in manga, in a 23 page chapter that's coming out weekly, no one cares.
The way comics are paid is another factor. While I don't have any example of how much is paid per manga page, I imagine it's probably less than the cost of a comic page, especially for better paid artists in America. You wouldn't pay an artist like Jim Lee $1,000 per page)or more, probably) and want him to to draw just 2 figures and obscured faces, even if it's in better service to the story. A company doesn't see it that way when that much money is involved. And on the other end, readers would dislike something like that if they were paying $5 for 22 pages. With manga, it's about the same for over 200 pages of a compilation magazine like jump, or a tankoban for about $10 with 250 pages.
I think the whole structure needs. complete overhaul really. It would be easier for comic artists to produce pages if they had smaller pages with less densely packed panels like manga. You could make more pages this way, and have more value. Artists would take a hit on individual page prices, but would get more work and pages that they could sell.

>>149932056
>>149932249
Forgive me, I was a bit harsh and only acknowledges his flaws while ignoring his strengths.

He obviously has a very good grasp of animation, but his desire to flex too often overpowers that

>>149932056
Luther strodde is absolute kino.
People who hates luther strodde ares just posers.

>>149932692
It's really a matter of pagecount, a lengthy stotyline can last around 5 issues or slightly more, meanwhile for manga taking up to 30-40 is normal.
Comic books compensate the lack of time that can be dedicated to fights by using impressively detailed poses.

>>149931266 (OP)
it really is baffling to me that super hero comics, a genre that by all means should be filled to the brim with action, hardly has any good fights or fight choreography. i know people rationalize it as it being melodrama first and action second but thats fucking stupid. batman is a world renowned martial artists so his fights should reflect that, same goes with diana being a warrior with countless years of experience.

>>149931266 (OP)
They don't know shit. Manga and anime, especially earlier ones will often actually use reasonably accurate karate strikes and judo throws because they've either trained it or have plenty of reference material. They're also not tied down with having a separate artist and writer or a specific layout which has to include dialogue bubbles, inner monologue boxes and the actual illustration of the fight all at the same time and will instead just use the whole page for the fight with the occasional slight dialogue.

>>149931266 (OP)
Wonder Woman kicking Joker? From which issue is this?

>>149934390
>it really is baffling to me that super hero comics, a genre that by all means should be filled to the brim with action, hardly has any good fights or fight choreography.
It's a problem caused by the circular reason of hiring practices. Basically in order to get hired your portfolio has to be filled the exact same composition, style, and paneling that is already standard in mainstream books. You have no choice but to do what isn't working to even get in the door and if you are lucky enough to get that far you can't point it out or risk being black listed.
The only thing you can do is do what podcasts did to radio and what youtube/streaming did to network TV. Start fresh on new ground.

>>149932249
Nah, you're just a pedantic faggot. The paneling is very clear and enhances the action in a fun and straight-forward way, without making things confusing or hard to read. Is it a bit fancier and more dynamic than it strictly needs to be? Sure, of course. But if you believe that's an actual downside, I need you to understand that you are a cancerous vermin.

Stop hiring Mexicans.

>>149934390
I have read a fair bit of Marvel comics. For pure action, your best bet is Punisher, the Annihilation Event and Thanos (2016)

>>149931266 (OP)
I've said it before and I'll say it again choreography is an artform all on it's own and that means it requires years of dedication to be any good at it. The same way you can't just go up on stage tell a couple of jokes and be a great comdeian you also get shit out a couple of generic poses and call yourself the next toriyama. Fightscenes aren't something any douche can just shit out on a whim, you need that laser guided uncut AUTISM to lock into flow,weight, and technique that stops combat from just being a slideshow of stolen overused panels.

>>149935438
Show me American artists who do good fight scenes.

>>149935666
>No you!
Nice one Pablo.

>>149932249
This reminds me of those cube world toys. I don't like it

>>149935810
Seriously, marvel and DC have been
“hiring Mexicans”( both the She-hulk and this artist, Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, are Argies, not that you would care to know the difference ) since at least the 70s. Yet you’re hyper fixated on that She-hulk run.

>>149935635
>you also can't*
Fuck this topic gets me so heated I can't type straight. It's juat that it feels like there's a never ending torrent of hackneyed dipshits pumping out the most unoriginal boring slop "fights" and barely anyone notices how starved the action genre is for anything decent.

>>149935923
It's like a trainwreck I can't stop looking at it.

>>149934390
Yeah, it sucks. I wish comics had better action.
My favorite action-focused superhero comic is Alan Moore's brief Captain Britain run. There are multiple skirmishes in that one, and it's only as long as about 6-7 issues long in all. It's full of some of the same problems with characters posing, but it's a romp nonetheless.

Jim Lee is like the patron saint of everything wrong with American comic fight scenes.
It's all nicely drawn but so stiff and boring
No one's skin ever contorts when they get punched. No one ever kicks so hard their legs become warped. just still dolls posing

>>149936388
>No one's skin ever contorts when they get punched. No one ever kicks so hard their legs become warped
Yes dude, the characters should dislocate their joints and contort themselves into a Picasso painting, that will save American comics for sure!

>>149937207
Nice strawman, loser. What's wrong, couldn't think of a real argument?

>>149931862
This page always gets me because we're watching Superman and Doomsday are fighting in a top-down perspective...and then there's Lois, who
1.) is drawn in a completely different perspective, like she's cut and pasted in there
2.) should be dead from being right next to them

>>149937207
Squash and stretch nigga, it's not just for animation.

>>149931266 (OP)
>why do big 2 still struggle with drawing action?

Because drawing action well is hard, and the pay is shit so they can't get very skilled artists.

>>149931266 (OP)
>shit like Luthor Strode doesnt struggle with this
Luther Strode probably has some of the best and most kinetic fights I've ever seen in comics, east or west, glad to see it mentioned.

>>149937207
That is indeed one reason why manga fight scenes are so popular

Thoughts on Furanku Milla-san's work, action-sempai?

>>149937296
I don't think it's meant to literally be Lois physically in that area, but a poorly indicated insert. would perhaps be better
If I was to hazard a guess, the writer wanted their to be a dialogue between Lois and Superman, but the artist figured the composition would be better if it focused on Superman and Doomsday and added Lois as an afterthought just to allow her dialogue to be put on the page. It's not a great solution, but it also goes to show how shackled artists can be in American comics. that dialog NEEDS to be there because the writer dictates it must be, even if it would work better as separate pages.

>>149937254
>Nice strawman, loser. What's wrong, couldn't think of a real argument?
Why don't you make your own comic so you can contort skin and warp legs or whatever you people like to do? After all you know so much about art and how to make it better than Marvel and DC.
>>149937325
>Squash and stretch nigga, it's not just for animation.
Not every animation uses it in the same way or even at all anon.
>>149937446
>That is indeed one reason why manga fight scenes are so popular
The page you posted isn't that exaggerated at all, what the anon would have you believe is that this is a bad page since Goku's arm isn't being "warped" in that shot.

>>149937644
>ll, what the anon would have you believe
I AM that anon, anon.
I'm not saying they need to constantly warm like a cartoon, but even bits like having Frieza's eyes bulge more than they would on his "real" skull if it stuck to his model, how Goku's arm compresses with his body to show how hard he's ducking, how Goku's fist digs into Frieza's body, that's all very visceral movement that Jim Lee would never do.

>>149937703
>that's all very visceral movement that Jim Lee would never do.
That's because Jim Lee isn't Akira Toriyama and has a different art style with it's own strengths and weaknesses. Other comic artists can and have done something similar to that.

>>149937902
Yeah, a big problem I see is people want every fight to be a Toriyama-drawn fight, or they just want it to look like manga.

>>149937902
It's not just Toriyama who does it though. It's a good deal of popular artists.

>>149931862
Why did Lois spend the whole time in arms reach of the guy who folded the JLA like laundry?

>>149931842
DoS is notorious for being the most cynical cash grab of all time, so your assessment isn't inaccurate. It's literally made to be speculator bait and nothing else.

You don’t associate it with him but Alan Moore is capable of plotting out a solid fight scene

>>149937902
Pretty much every manga artist praises Toriyama to the high heavens, he's practically the benchmark standard for good manga.
To simply disregard him and say "muh style" with reference to Jim Lee who compared to Toriyama is a complete nobody is frankly... cope.

You either be inspired by Toriyama and succeeed, or you ignore him and be nothing

>>149938739
I'd attribute this more to the other Alan.

>>149937644
>Why don't you make your own comic
Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, aren't you?

>>149937902
>Other comic artists can and have done something similar to that.
Posted a bad example
"Right to back of the head"
"Right hook into ribs"

Doesn't come close to DBZ panel flow.

>>149938784
Can you think of other good Alan Davies fight scenes?

I always feel like half the people making comics don't like the medium or are embarassed by it. And the other half of people making comics are just fans of comics but in a surface level kind of way and they just repeat the bad mistakes of other creators rather than understanding things.

>>149938720
That's a dumb assessment, largely shaped by the marketing than the actual content.

>>149931981
Whenever I see big epic armies of characters in splash pages I just think of the hey down in front.

when batman palms a some random ass hench niggas nose bone into his brain, the art should be brutal enough to make the reader go "holy fucking shit". it shouldnt just be some tiny panel with a *THWACK* thrown into the background

>>149938720
>>149931842
Sorry but it is inaccurate. At least, the conceit was that each issue would provide fewer panels, culminating in a single panel final issue. The original art being sold has nothing to do with it.

>>149937446
>paneling makes it so you don't even see the punch coming
>because Freezypop didn't see it coming either
Fucking KINO. I need to reread Dragon Ball.

>>149939842
and the American editor's approach would be
>where is the punch coming from? We need to see the fist poised and ready before depicting the punch

>>149931266 (OP)
its easier to pose and trace 3d models when you dont have to have them interacting with the other traced 3d model.

>>149939842
I love the art. Too bad the story SUUUCKS.

Modern artists aren't always taught the fundamentals of animation, which is important for discerning what "frame" would look best to draw. Quietly's one of the few that gets it. He always shows a frame after impact which really helps the motion look dynamic but also as if it's still happening.

The Japanese government has nanobots implanted in Big 2 artists' brains to block them from understanding fight choreography. This is to prevent the Big 2 from making readable comics, a threat to the manga industry.

>>149940179
See

>>149937633
The final issue of the story was told entirely in splash pages, which limited the artist's options for how to include Lois in the scene. Like >>149939608 talks about, the panel count per page was on a countdown in each chapter of the storyline, from 7 panels to 1. Without that concept, Lois probably would have been shown at a distance in an inset panel.

>>149931975
>Picrel
Bad example
That just splash page anon
But sure, It's okay when Japan does it

>>149935204
It's just an alternative cover from Daniel Warren Johnson (same dude that did the first 6 issues of Skybound TF for reference), no idea what comic it belongs to, though.

>>149937446
You needed to post a manga from 35-40 years ago. More recent JUMP manga look like shit

>>149940928
obsessed

>>149931922
I know old comics were written for kids, but they also were written by adults with childbrains. the more golden era shit I read the more (regular everyday) logic is thrown out the window

>>149931981
the talking during fights also ruins it. paragraphs of blah blah blah while these two behemoths are about to tear into each other. writers are to blame as well.

>>149940928
in all fairness, manga does have good action for each fight. mostly in the sports and martial arts manga.

>>149941038
>You needed to post a manga from 35-40 years ago.
That's the point. Someone figured out the recipe 40 years ago with one the most popular ips on earth. There's no excuse for mainstream action comics to have terrible choreography anymore.

Comic artists don't actually read manga and if they do they take the wrong lessons. Matt Wagner is obviously inspired by manga but I also see 60s comic influence in his fight scenes.

>>149937446
I miss seeing angular panels and creative layouts. It's like there's been a total brain drain where no one has read any Go Nagai or Neal Adams

>>149941638
It's also that editors dislike those tricks now
even /co/'s favorite editor Jim Shooter specifically wanted stuff like this not used and chased the artist out of Marvel.

>>149938322
Yes, people want fights that looks like good manga, hence why manga vastly outsells western cape comics

>>149941756
Artists like Scioli still do this though.

>>149931266 (OP)
I saw one good explanation in how manga is written like a movie while comics are written like a book

>>149931266 (OP)
Excellent sense of motion and impact. Too bad those bloomers fucking ruin it. If they didnt want her flashing the reader, they could have just blacked out his pussy.

>>149940144
Same with figure drawing when they learn from copying photos and comics more than analyzing life. Quitely understands the pose in motion and can make precise choices.

>>149932692
this

>>149932692
That looks like shit.

>>149932249
very manga esque.

>>149943766
>one of my art idols since I was too young for this site liked my post
love you magi, I have enjoyed your work so much

>>149945045
There's 90 other pages coming out that month. No one is going to nitpick panels because the point is the series of pages and how it reads.

I've always liked this panel from Return of Barry Allen. Flash battles Reverse-Flash and gets his ass thoroughly kicked. It does a good job of getting across the asskicking in just one page.

>>149945112
*this page, excuse me.

>>149945112
Almost every Flash comic fight I've seen is disappointing, and this runs was full of disappointment. He moves fast as fuck, and every fight is the same boring shit.

>>149931981
>epic fight

>>149945533
Batkek may well be DC Comics' lowest point in the last 10 years.

>>149931266 (OP)
>despite being an action heavy genre

No, they aren't, and never were. Stop this shit. Superheroes are not "LE WESTERN DRAGON BALL". Go back 2 reddit, faggot.

>>149939608
>The original art being sold has nothing to do with it.

After publishers began returning original art, the artists started drawing everything to look good hanging on a wall (so they could sell them at con auctions) rather than to tell a story. That's why 90s comics look the way they do.

So it absolutely had everything to do with selling the pages.

>>149932249
>doesn't see the panels as windows into a living breathing world, but rather as geometric shapes to be toyed with

This is why the "British Invasion" stuff sucks.

>>149937902
>Jim Lee [...] has a different art style

Jim Lee doesn't have a "style". Jim Lee just can't draw.

>>149945146
Dude, if you're reading comics for fight scenes then you're an idiot. Superheroes are not about fights and never have been.

>>149943107
>manga is written like a movie

Manga is written like an anime. Comics are written like comics (for better or worse).

>>149945871
>Jim Lee doesn't have a "style". Jim Lee just can't draw.
Draws better than you ever will bucko, His work on X-Men in the 90s was great.
>>149939278
May be a bad example but my point stands.
>>149938760
Toriyama was influential but not everyone was influenced in the same way. I defy you to look at a Hunter X Hunter panel and tell me it looks similar to Dragon Ball even though Tagashi is a big fan of Akira Toriyama. At this point I wonder if weebs read manga at all?

>>149946029
>Draws better than

No, he doesn't draw better than anyone. Random fucking artists online have better perspective, proportion, and anatomy than he does, and have less trouble staying on-model.

Take your 90s XTREME! faggotry and shove it up your faggot ass.

>>149946043
>Filtered by 90s edge
Sad, many such cases.

>>149945875
>Superheroes are not about fights

They should be.

>>149945056
thanks! I feel its a good summery of how creative process and its incentive structures effects the product and its not always simple limit in stylistic choices and skills.

I feel old. ;_;

>>149940982
Thanks mate. I've read some of his stuff but never came across this.

>>149940982
>>149946152
It's a variant cover for the upcoming Batman / Deadpool book.

>>149946043
>Random fucking artists online have better perspective, proportion, and anatomy
no, no and no. also, this is comics, those things are secondary to style and storytelling.

>>149946208
>no, no and no
Objectively false.
>those things are secondary to style
Objectively false.
>and storytelling
Jim Lee is one of the most incompetent storytellers in the history of comics and doesn't even try to tell stories. All he does is draw poses.

>>149946063
Yet they aren't. Deal with it.

>>149933417
It sucks ass to be honest, the writing is pure garbage. Writer completely drops the ball on the concept after part 1.
The only redeeming thing about it is Tradd Moore's art.

In the past the big 2 had house styles a lot of the time because of the short creative turn around, for consistency and comics were issue stories rather than longer arcs so I feel like a lot of the action fit. The superstar artist period led to the Image revolt and the influence of artists was massively downplayed at the big 2 and they are just slotted into books so they are going off the whims of writers and writers often have entrenched industry ideas of what goes in a book and so much of the money shot are just static looking splash pages rather than animated action. A lot of the creators in comic books aren't creating for the medium itself and don't appreciate what it can do. Exciting action needs some tension or ideas behind it and these are severly lacking.

>>149939328
>I always feel like half the people making comics don't like the medium or are embarassed by it.
That's no secret. Most comic writers hate the medium and only use it as a springboard to jump onto TV screenwriting. It's been known for ages.

>>149947870
In the past, it was a stepping stone to more general illustration work.
Today it's a stepping stone to screenwriting.
It seems throughout its entire history, comics has always been the stepping stone

>>149945875
They are though. You're just coping because they're so bad at it.

>>149937372
>Because drawing action well is hard, and the pay is shit so they can't get very skilled artists.
I don't think it's even a matter of just pay. The highest paid artists in America are probably what, concept artists? I guarantee you many of them would also suck attempting to draw fight scenes, because it's a whole different toolset from just illustrating polished art work. In fact, it's almost a detriment because illustrators tend to overrender and dwell in hard realism.

>>149937446
I do like manga's fight scenes and the way better artists are capable of flowing panels together to create the sense of fluid action, but at the same time, it can get tiresome and almost seem like filler. You can only look at so many panels of motion lines and onamonapeoia until you want something of substance.

It's almost funny how manga and anime are an inversion of each other—manga uses pages of close-up action shots to pad out actual plot progress, and anime uses boring-ass talking to fill time and conserve budget for the action scenes.

>>149932249
Comic artists, especially more "artsy" ones, tend to see comic pages as a whole. The individual actions are almost less important than looking at it relative to an entire page. It's why there's always such focus on avoiding awkward cropping, needing to depict full figures and backgrounds even when not needed.
Manga tends to focus more panel by panel.
This is also why manga tends to lend itself more to online reading, where as comic pages tend to be more unwieldy to read online.

>>149948535
>manga uses pages of close-up action shots to pad out actual plot progress
This is something I realized recently while reading Berserk. There's a fuckton of action to the point that you actually get desensitized to it. Crazy shit happens on a massive scale so regularly that you begin to lose all sense of setting and consistency, sometimes. Like you can look at an entire, multi-panel sequence of some demon mutating into a mountainous eldritch horror while eviscerating every living thing within reach, and it just stops registering because that's the kind of shit you've been looking at for the past 20 pages.

East and West both have their own values when it comes to page composition and establishing an atmosphere with their art, and both come with their own inherent problems if you don't restrain yourself.

>>149931266 (OP)
>why are cape comics like this?
Because superhero comics are crap. The sooner the genre dies the same death as romance and western comics the better.

>>149948702
So what are some good points each has that can be learned by one another to improve both?

>>149931266 (OP)
Mirage TMNT always did fight scenes so well. Eastman is a layout master and his action scenes are always so fluid and easy to follow.

>>149945835
>worlds top 5 martial artist, alien who can punch a meteor in half, and an Amazonian warrior whos gone blow for blow with gods and avatars
>"NUH UH ACTUALLY THEY WERE NEVER MEANT TO HAVE LOTS OF ACTION"
thats fucking stupid. you can have your Constantine's, your detective focused batman, and your fantastic fours where thats not really the draw, but whats the point of giving super heroes super powers if they dont do anything with them?

>>149948985
It's pretty straightforward. Manga artists need to step back from stylized, panel-filling action shots with no context. It's something they affected from kung-fu movies with lots of fast-paced, close-up action. It works there because it's more fluidly integrated with wide/establishing footage, but manga often leans on these simple, close-up shots as a form a "filler" because it's easier to draw a closeup of fists and action lines than it is to draw an entire scene in proper perspective. Because of this, sometimes you can go several pages with no clear idea of what the setting is. It isn't that you've forgotten, it's just that non-stop action shots start to get boring when the comic/manga is no longer establishing an atmosphere. And while I'm not one of those people who bitches about manga being black and white, I think the lack of color compounds this issue.

For western artists, it's the opposite: Be willing to get abstract and resort to stylized action more often. The disconnect here might be because writing and drawing are typically two people working in a vacuum from each other, so fitting dialogue/exposition on a page often takes prescedence over simple visuals that could speak just as loudly. If you want a good example of a western comic with good action balance, the Skybound Transformers series had phenomenal layouts and paneling while DWJ was still on art. You can tell he was specifically inspired by a lot of manga, though. Dude was literally showing Optimus Prime using Japanese wrestling moves, lol.

>>149949193
>"NUH UH ACTUALLY THEY WERE NEVER MEANT TO HAVE LOTS OF ACTION"
They do have action. It's just that the western concept of how to frame "action" has always been different from Japan's, especially where art/animation is concerned. Western art uses wide angles and easily-digestable composition to show larger-than-life actions, while eastern art is more about focused/stylized action, showing every minor movement in close-up detail.

>>149949477
>finally a thread about manga and comics that isn't a shitflinging match
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket while I'm at it.

>>149946157
No it's for DC KO

>>149949477
>It's just that the western concept of how to frame "action" has always been different from Japan's
And yet none of it is memorable or mentioned at all in any discussions of good fight scenes. Think of it this way, when talking about martial arts movies people will refer to SPECIFIC scenes and moments. Western capeshit never has something with the same lasting impression as the subway battle with agent smith or the hallway from the Raid.
And I'm not saying there aren't western artists that can do great fight scenes, I'm saying the Big 2 either doesn't hire them or doesn't let them do their thing.

>>149949477
No, I'm fine with no backgrounds during action scenes. Worrying too much about the full picture is how you get cluttered, overly busy art like modern One Piece or My Hero Academia.

>>149949193
>>149949477
I always felt that superheroes were more about adventure than specific fight scenes. Exotic locales, wild characters, crazy situations, gorgeous scenery and artwork.

Maybe my expectations are low, but all I'd really expect from a western comic fight scene is: >>149945112

>>149950611
there's a difference between "no background" and "nothing but abstract close-ups and action lines for several panels in a row". But it also doesn't help that manga artists tend to ignore backgrounds a lot even in non-action scenes.

>>149945862
British Invasion comics are the GOAT.

>>149931981
>>149952007
Fuck's sake.

>>149953115
What?

>>149940144
Multiversity #1 might be the greatest comic book ever made by either of the Big 2. Overall, I'd rank it up there with Cerberus in terms of careful planning applied to illustration.

>>149954142
It's not as good as Watchmen.

>>149931266 (OP)
Action sequences are the 'drum solos" of cape comics.

>>149949477
I agree entirely but Ill make it even more straightforward. Manga action looks the way it looks because of anime.

Even when its not action, manga likes to read as if it were intended to be animated eventually. The flow of events and the space of scenes tend to be pretty well defined. Manga is formatted and paced like a storyboard for anime or live-action movies. Manga likes traditional film camera framing and directly tries to evoke movies and anime.

Meanwhile, cape comics appear to have zero interest in learning any cinematography lessons from movies. If anything, comic writers seem to think what they need to adopt from comic movies is the quips and surface level similarities, and not the action setpieces.

>>pic unrelated, ultramega is flawed but the action is dope.

Writers are embarrassed by them add think they're beneath them. They're trying out for tv so it's just witty repartee. Having to telegraph the action, use or describe powers or strategy is nerd shit.

>>149931266 (OP)
Even some of the most mediocre manga I have seen had better action choreography than comics that are regarded as masterpiece

>>149945835
>Superheroes are not "LE WESTERN DRAGON BALL"

It would be an improvement if it were. I say with no fear of being wrong that DB has the best action panelling and choreography ever made.

>>149955224
Why is Demon Slayer so popular again?

>>149955479
Because it's entertaining

>>149955479
because the anime elevated the piece of shit that the source material is

>>149931266 (OP)
Yowch! THAT'S gonna hurt in the morning!

>>149931266 (OP)
interesting how DWJ just does a worse version what they have done in Japan for decades and suddenly he is biggest revolutionary in comcis since Jack Kirby

>>149931981
What would be a better way of doing it? Even anime sometimes fall into this issue, see TTGL ending up at "Let's just keep fighting as we always do even when we can throw galaxies at each other".