Thread 150373940

I don't get it. Why are the Burton films so beloved?

I'm a huge Batman fan and enjoy both the modern stories (Dark Knights Metal, Batman who laughs, Three Jokers) and the classics (Killing Joke, TDKR, Hush)

However I can't get into the Burton Batman filsm.
What do people like about them?
The Batmobile is cool , but all the other costumes and props aged like milk.

>>150373940 (OP)
It's dark and edgy but it's still a comic book world. In some way, it's closer to TDKR than Nolan's TDK

>>150373940 (OP)
There is literally no other movie like them that exists, they are entirely unique. No studio will ever let someone like him fulfil their vision ever again with a beloved brand. All practical sets that still look amazing today, captured the imagination of millions.

>>150373940 (OP)
My problems with the Burton movies are varied, but one of the big ones I think is that he is more obsessed with the villains and make the ENTIRE story revolve around them, with Batman struggling to even retain relevance in the second film he headlines.
At the same time, he also completely fails to understand any of these villains. Joker's the closest you'll get to the original intent, though he comes off as straight up being misogynistic in Batman 89, which is kinda weird for his usual indiscriminate behaviour. Penguin got morphed into some kind of fucked up mutant sewer goblin, and Catwoman isn't even a fucking thief and spends all her time doing stupid shit in a fetish leather costume.
The whole business with that new power plant project, which is said to be shady and appears to be designed to *store* power more than generate it? Doesn't come up again, totally irrelevant when it was clearly supposed to be tied to a scheme of some sort.
Burton's aesthetic taste has always pissed me off somehow, ever since my childhood. It was at tolerable levels in 89, but in Returns it became downright overkill.
And then there's the big one, the utterly unjustifiable action that shows just how little Burton actually cared: Batman kills, A LOT. He's machine-gunning goons with the batmobile, he's dropping them off buildings, he straight up straps a bomb to some random guy and leaves him to blow. This is not fucking Batman, this is Punisher with a stupid hat.

Literally the only good thing to come out of all this shit is the hype and budget required to make BTAS, which is far superior at literally every single level, from art design to writing to music.

>>150374204
Batman SHOULD kill

>>150373940 (OP)
>I'm a huge Batman fan and enjoy both the modern stories (Dark Knights Metal, Batman who laughs, Three Jokers) and the classics (Killing Joke, TDKR, Hush)

>>150374534
This.

>>150373940 (OP)
60% of the appeal of Batman and his world in any and all incarnations is the combination of pulp detective sensibilities of the 1930's with gothic melodrama of the Victorian era. The Burton films are still the only ones to fully commit to the visual language of Batman comics without compromises. Jack Nicholson's Joker is still the closest live action incarnation visually to the classic image of the Joker since he first appeared in 1940.

>>150374204
Catwoman spending all her time in costume > developed thief origin

>>150373940 (OP)
The villains are genuinely scary, he leverages all of his experience in horror for it. We get a lot more of Bruce Wayne than some other films. The backdrops are just incredible and massive. I genuinely have no idea how he got it approved in the budget as it's some of the first stuff you cut when you can. His Joker was fucking fantastic even though it deviated from the normal. Same goes for all of his other villains, sure they aren't exactly the same as the comic, but they are all compelling and interesting.

>>150374204
You have fantastic points that I agree with. I think that Tim Burton got the weird bit of the Batman timeline of the transition from the super campy show to Tim Burton doing what he does plus the edgelord content of the late 90s and early 2000s. As for the killings, yah I've got nothing. As a kid watching for the first time I thought nothing of it. As an adult with more familiarity with Batman, it's weird.

they look cool as fuck.

>>150373940 (OP)
>I'm a huge Batman fan
>Only lists the worst fucking Batman stories.

>>150374204
>but one of the big ones I think is that he is more obsessed with the villains and make the ENTIRE story revolve around them, with Batman struggling to even retain relevance in the second film he headlines.
All three of the main antagonists of Batman Returns (Penguin, Catwoman and Max Shreck) are dark mirrors of Bruce Wayne/Batman, all three say more about Bruce and Batman as a character without hitting the audience over the head with navel gazing "character development".

"You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak, and you have to wear a mask!"
"You might be right."

>>150375602
Around 89 killfags were running things, Batman was being written as a bloodthirsty 80s action hero in the comics too, and people were writing off his previous No-Kill Policy as mere censorship that no longer applied.
Then it got boring, so he unceremoniously started bringing baddies in alive again.

>>150373940 (OP)
Because the last the average person remembered Batman, he was the Adam West Batman, which they no longer saw as cool.
It's one of those "You had to be there" things, that only makes sense with the right cultural context. I loved them as a kid, because I grew up with them, but I don't really think Forever or & Robin were that bad.

>>150375683
What do you consider the best modern and classic stories?

>>150375838
>implying there's any good modern Batman stories
lol
lmao even

>>150376050
Dark Patterns has been very good

You guys should not waste your time trying to convince some that likes dark knights metal to understand kino

Gotham never looked better than the Burton films

>>150375713
>You know, a mistletoe can be deadly if you eat it
>A kiss can be deadlier... If you mean it
>Oh my God, does this mean we have to start fighting?
This scene if fucking great

>>150374204
>misogynistic

Really Nigga?

>>150376232
>Dark Patterns has been very good
No, not really. It's just been slightly less crappier than everything else Batman-related.

>>150374204
Batman killing is fine, you're trying to make bullshit created by Comics Code a fundamental aspect of the character.

>>150373940 (OP)
Because, and this might surprise, Superhero movies used to be rare. And the good ones even rarer.

>>150373940 (OP)
Good action
Great scenery
Good dialogue
Great villains
Fantastic soundtrack

It also shows a Batman that is willing to kill occasionally, a rather unique angle

I give Burton a pass because we've got almost 40 years of distance between now and his take which transitioned Batman from a campy gag character to what he is now. Yes, the movies were centered around the villains. Everything about Batman was focused on his villains prior to that. Making it a Joker-esque character piece would be completely out of left field.

What I dislike about the Burton films is that his take on Bruce is bad in my opinion. Instead of being the debonair, charming billionaire playboy, he comes off more like a nutball autist. I can see why he did it: it makes his Batman even more of a disconnect from Bruce than the Nolan Bruce is from that version's bats. But here's the thing: Burton's Batman is scarier. Nolan's Batman is a gargle-voiced guy trying way too hard to look dour and serious. Burton's version actually cracks a smile every now and again to give the audience that feeling of 'oh fuck, this guy's actually crazy'. I think, like my pic I spent 10,000 years in MS Paint to bring to life, the best combination is Nolan's suave, mysterious Bruce and Burtons unnatural, unhinged Batman.

once you accept the fact that a live action movie will never match something like the dcu in terms of care and understanding of the source material, and will inevitably commit some careless hackery it's redeeming qualities shine through. If nothing else they redeem themselves by cementing the perpetual night art deco noir character of gotham for btas to pick up and run with.

The Keaton Batman suits look the best when standing. I'm a big fan of how the cape actually drapes around him.

I liked the Pinguin's origin story in Returns, but Catwoman's in Returns is Halle Berry's catwoman tier
Then the final act in Batman 89 is great but in Returns is rushed and dumb as hell.

>>150377011
But it IS a fundamental aspect of his character. Batman won't even kill his worst enemy, because he doesn't believe himself to have the right to. Some random mooks? Even less so.

>>150376869
Yes, really. Like 80% of his attacks and schemes against non-mobster victims are focused against women. He even gets a fuckass obsession with Vicki Vale when we all know that the only person worthy of such treatment in his eyes is Batman himself. It's downright weird, and watching Batman Returns afterwards solidified the idea that maybe Tim Burton just has no idea how to treat female characters with real respect.

>>150377141
>Bale being a better actor than Keaton in anything
Nice try, spaz

>>150373940 (OP)
I think you have to look at them in context, it was the first time anyone had tried to make Batman serious on screen. At that time the only version of Batman non-comic reading normies were familiar with was the Adam West version and by comparison Burton's films were fucking dark. They changed audience perceptions of the characters from being just goofy '60s camp and in doing so paved the way for the more serious Batman of BTAS (and certainly inspired its aesthetic) and everything since.

I'm old enough to have watched and enjoyed the Burton films as a kid before the Nolan films existed and I think they still hold up. They are VERY Burton and ymmv depending on your tolerance for his particular style but the design work, cinematography, music and just the general spectacle of them still brings a smile to my face. It might not be the most faithful or perfect Batman, but I still think it's pretty fucking great.

You're looking at it in a historical perspective. When the film was first released, the only thing people had to compare it to was that Adam West Batman. That made it new and different and generated excitement.

It's not new and different now, so you notice the bad stretches.

I do think 90% of the goodwill for the Burton movies is because Gotham looks cool. Compare it to the Nolan movies where Gotham becomes more and more just Chicago with each movie.

>>150373940 (OP)
Burton has gone on record that he doesn't read comics. His movies are just his reinterpretation of the 60's show. The real truth is that all live action Batman movies suck.

>>150373940 (OP)
The Burton films are more cohesive on their own or sequels. The others are only good as 90's batman movies that are too goofy even at the time. Batman Forever is a great script, but a horrible film. Batman & Robin is terrible, but consistently terrible and amusing. They're like strange American-made tokusatsu. The Burton films are operatic in camp, not so insistent with it like Schumacher.

In fact, I'd go as far to say Schumacher was the Roger Moore to Tim Burton's Sean Connery in terms of their Bat-kinos.

>>150377801
The costumes are neat too

I really wanna kick /co/ntrarians asses so bad.

>>150377801
Gotham looks amazing, the score's better, the acting's better, the writing's better, it's funnier and more emotionally impactful etc.
Dark Knight feels like the director's ashamed of what he's doing so he surgically removed all the fun out of Batman to make it a dour, bland film full of boring monologues

>>150377820
Adam West was the Sean Connery, Burton was Lazenby

>>150373940 (OP)
They were good in an era were you got 1 good superhero movie a decade (not counting sequels) The rest were unwatchable.

>>150374204
>though he comes off as straight up being misogynistic in Batman 89, which is kinda weird for his usual indiscriminate behaviour.
He may be fine with blowing up cities, but he'd never abuse a woman!!!

I guess you had to be there.

We probably wouldn't have the dcau or the mcu without the 89 batman movie. No one was making super hero film or tv that really took super stuff seriously. We had like 9 years of super hero cartoons that semi took the source material seriously. But even then, those shows were hindered by budget and a growing fear of violence in kids cartoons. The dialog was also pretty bland.

Then you have Tim Burton's two movies ride in and throw down a challenge "what if we could make comic book movies adults could enjoy?" And "What if we put some money into this?"

Batman was such a worthless comic when the first Burtan batman film was made that they actually agreed to give Jack a percent of all the profits on the film and toys of the Joker and that is why Jack hasnt had to act much since Batman really got a second wind in the mid to late 90s.

As for the killing, yeah it is kind of out of place but that was kind of the thing for 80s action movies. It was coming in after terminator, predator, aliens, etc. It probably wouldn't have been taken seriously had the body count not been high.

The fighting was kind of a joke back then. Dudes in A list action movies didnt really do a ton of martial arts. It might be hard to beleive but Van Dam was kind of a B lister compared to Arnold or Stalone. In 89 if you were making an action movie for adults, problems were solved with Guns. If you used a bunch of kicks and punches, you weren't taken as serious.

Martial arts really didnt push 80s gun culture into the passenger seat until LOTRs and the new star wars movies dethroned all the block busters that came before. And I guess Spiderman and Iron Man. Then executives started to what more physical action with great camera work.

>>150373940 (OP)
>enjoys the modern stories
This is the only mark of your shit taste because I agree on not loving the Burton films. The best part is only Nicholson as Joker along with his look being the closest to the comics out of any live action version. The problem I have with the Burton films is the costume being this stiff rubber latex crap that plagues the costume making process to this day. Batman needs to be limber. Making the cowl alone stiff latex rubber limits the actor's movements & doesn't look good. Perhaps more importantly I don't like how these Burton movies just ignore what Batman was like at the time & just default him to being an uncaring killer who has no problems taking out goons. It kinda makes replacing Joe Chill with Joker to have a revenge motivation fall apart if Batman is not conflicted about killing him at all. The no kill rule is a key aspect that you can't just ignore.

>>150377801
Gotham looked great in Begins at least, and established that art deco overhead hanging monorail system that keeps cropping up in other versions of the city.

>>150378447
It's more that he's specifically going out of his way to target women rather than 'spreading the joy', as it were.

>>150377598
The no kill rule ruined western comics

>>150380454
What about a one kill rule?

>>150380454
Most superheroes don't even have pure no-kill rules. I think only Batman and Spider-Man have an extra strong inclination to spare/save every life. Other superheroes generally try really hard to refrain from killing, and often only refuse to do so due to the complications it might cause rather than a moral/ethical obligation or personal code. Even Superman would cave Darkseid's skull in if given the chance. In reality, a surprisingly large number of superheroes have killed at least one entity at one point or another.

That said, the no-kill rule was ultimately necessary for comics to build up strong rogues gallery. There is a reason that Batman and Spider-Man are considered to have the best rogues. The rogues are half the draw. Superheroes who aren't able to maintain a consistent rogues gallery don't tend to be nearly as successful.

>>150373940 (OP)
>I don't get it. Why are the Burton films so beloved?

They had great sets, costumes, writing, music (Danny Elfman owns), etc. Basically you had Burtons dark gothic opera, while still having some camp thrown in to make it reminiscent of the 60s Adam West show. Joker has a dude carrying a boombox for him and Keaton starts shouting LET'S GET NUTS like he's Beetlejuice. It was a great mix of epic and camp. And yeah, Michelle Pfeiffer perpetually being in either a gimp suit or with after sex hair. Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Batman TAS basically carried the dark parts and toned down the camp, while the Joel Schumacher movies did the opposite.

>>150374204
Burton is obsessed with twisted creepy circus and finds ways to stick that into just about every single movie he makes. He even put it in Big Fish. Of course he would focus way more on Joker, and then give Penguin evil circus minions and then laser focus on them too.

>>150382464
Even if you don't kill your enemies, sometimes they get killed off by other bad guys.

>>150374204
He had to sell it as a serious action flick against Schwarzenegger films and Lethal Weapon, to audiences that were not at all used to seeing superheroes as a legitimate film. Especially immediately after Superman 4 and all the wacky stupid shit that happened in that. Batman had to be right there next to Riggs and McClain as a super serious action hero that kills all the bad guys.

>>150380454
no it didn't. it's only a problem in modern batman because they decided to make every villain spree killers instead of flamboyant crime bosses.

>>150383874
I always thought the Red Triangle Circus Gang was a cool idea, just found out they've recently been integrated into the comics.

>>150373940 (OP)
>but all the other costumes
Is this a joke? Catwoman costume is one of the most beloved versions. Penguin makeup holds up in 2025. The batman mask is practically the base for every other batman mask in games and movies that ever came later.
Its also a good movie. People used to like good movies. First had to be a good movie, then a good X (batman in this case) movie.
For example all modern marvel and most modern dc are not good movies. They are good "comic book" movies. Maybe.

>>150384212
>The batman mask is practically the base for every other batman mask in games and movies that ever came later.
I'd argue his mask in Batman Returns is still the most comic-accurate mask in live action to this day. Burton might have played fast and loose with the "mythos", but his attention to the visual details of Batman are second-to-none.

>>150374204
I will answer why Batman takes a backsteat in the second movie since you are a fucking retard.

The whole arc of Batman was solved in the first movie. You got origin, solving his parents murder, getting over their murder, beating Joker and finally forging an alliance wirh Gordon. Thats it. That shit in modern onions days would take 3 movies and wouldnt even be better. Because it was thought as a single movie instead of dripping the content through 3 different movies.
So when they decide to make a sequel, the whole Batman story already ended. So instead of resetting the character (like they do with for example Thor, who learns the same fucking thing every movie just to be "worth") they go past through it. He is now a force of nature, part of the Gotham setting. Catwoman and Penguin are the stars, and Batman just hunts them. Its incredible smart and makes a completely different movie from the first one. Complete different dynamic. Thats why is hard to say which one is better. Both are genius. Great films.

>but in the comic books, balloonman said only diapermachine could beat X
No one cares. Its a good film.

>>150377182
>The Keaton Batman suits look the best when standing. I'm a big fan of how the cape actually drapes around him.
This is partly why I hate The Batman, Pattinson's Batman is always standing around with his cape tucked behind him and it looks retarded. I don't think Matt Reeves understands Batman's visual appeal, whereas Burton understood it instinctually.

>>150384350
There is a good idea, just a terrible execution. The mask is supposed to be a skull, but would have worked better with the cape covering his shoulders or even a tattered cape. Also the neck thing to cover Pattinsons pencil neck doesnt help the look they were going for it.

I liked the arkham chest, but the pants are like from a different suit. Also the gloves and arm protectors are shit.

>>150384283
It was comic accurate, the only problem was that it was impossible to turn your head in it since it was some hard foam rubber thing, which made a lot of Batmans movement very stiff. I remember how they made it a significant point in Batman Begins that he needs an outfit that allows him to turn his head.

>>150384443
When Keaton came back for The Flash, he insisted they keep the thick neck, because he incorporated his lack of movement in the mask into his physical performance as Batman. Just due to the modern fight choreography of Batman's scenes in The Flash, it was way less obvious it was a hindrance than in the first Burton movie.

For a movie that's suppose to be dark and gritty Batman Returns has a lot of cheesey moments in it

>>150385584
The script was written by Daniel Waters who wrote Heathers. Generally I think most of the humor works well because it's all in-character. It's got some of the best Bruce / Alfred bantz outside of the comic books.

>>150373940 (OP)
>I'm a huge Batman fan and enjoy both the modern stories (Dark Knights Metal, Batman who laughs, Three Jokers) and the classics (Killing Joke, TDKR, Hush)
Bait used to be believable.

>>150380454
It gives more depth & character than just generic run of the mill vigilante who had no problem killing.

>>150373940 (OP)
Because they're good

>>150384350
It's practical but doesn't look cool. Batman should look intimidating with his cape cloaked around him.

>>150376484
The best part is how they step over the floor light, and you can visualize their cowls from the shadows cast on their faces. Once you see it, you notice them seeing it, too. It's one of my favorite "learning the secret identity" scenes, really.

>>150386597
To add to this: The ending of Batman Returns specifically is weakened by Batman not following his "No kill rule" in the film. Bruce is trying to get through to Selina so she doesn't cross the line by killing Shreck, but what would this Batman care since he's already killed a couple of Penguin's gang in the movie? Why would their relationship change if Selina kills Shreck just like Bruce killed the fire eater or the burly clown earlier in the movie with the bomb? I feel like the "no kill" rule was implied in the script phase, but Batman lighting the fire eater up and blowing up the burly clown were something that came up in the storyboarding phase that contradicted the script.

That was also a thing in the first Batman: All the scenes where Batman killed Joker's goons didn't come off as something in the screenplay, but something concocted by the storyboard team after the fact planning the action sequences (explosion at Axis Chemicals, machine gunning Joker's goons on the parade float, the henchman Batman drops down the bell tower, etc). Knowing that Sam Hamm didn't finish the script before filming started (1988 WGA writer's strike halted his ability to finish the script) adds credence to this, Hamm's screenplay basically ends with Batman giving Vicky the chemical combinations to SmyleX. Burton, Keaton, Nicholson and the production crew basically had to make everything else up (and it kind of shows).

>>150388317
Exactly! To be fair, it'd be just as dumb as Batfleck deciding he shouldn't kill anymore after he killed countless goons in BvS. But at least him regretting killing now & trying to keep Selina from being like him would make for SOMETHING.
That revelation of the writers strike & cobbling a movie together makes a lot of sense.