Thread 150991068

Why do so many artists tend to be mediocre writers?
This isn't even a "kids these days" thing like some may claim. Pic rel may be the most infamous example of a God tier artist/animator writing absolute shit
Is there a reason for this?

>>150991068 (OP)
>Why do so many artists tend to be mediocre carpenters?
>Why do so many artists tend to be mediocre drivers?
>Why do so many artists tend to be mediocre writers?

I dunno, maybe it's because drawing and writing are two completely different skillsets with absolutely no overlap?

>>150991068 (OP)
You can't be good at everything really, sometimes being skilled in one thing just means you are not as refined in others

>>150991068 (OP)
Because artists aren’t writers, dipshit.
Hope this helps.

>>150991081
>not being magically good at everything

>>150991188
You aren’t even good at one thing

>>150991175
Maybe we should teach good writers how to animate.

>>150991068 (OP)
how come so few people ever ask why writers arent good artists?

>>150991068 (OP)
drawing isn’t writing

>>150991203
Wrong. If I wasn't good at something, then I wouldn't be perfect, and I can't be not perfect, I'm me.

>>150991341
>and I can't be not perfect, I'm me.
You are the reverse of perfect

They focused all the actual writing on this guy's lines.

>>150991068 (OP)
Drawing takes a lot of alone time to master, but if you skip developing life experiences and social skills to draw more, it’s a disadvantage to improving as a writer.

>>150991355
I'm perfect because I'm me. If I wasn't perfect, I wouldn't be me, I'd be some other person who doesn't matter. Why would me be me if me isn't perfect?

>>150991068 (OP)
they put all their stats into one skill

>>150991068 (OP)
Creative skills take a lot of practice and odds are if you've invested a lot of time into one, you haven't had the opportunity to invest a lot of time in another

>>150991081
>drawing is never a storytelling medium
>you cannot draw your own comic
Stop defending lazy unimaginative people, carolposter.

>>150991436
You see this a lot with film directors too. Stanley Kubrick famously did not trust himself with the human element of a lot of his films because he was self-aware about his issue around always getting perfect shot and atmosphere down.

>>150991081
Just be like Leonardo da Vinci bro, it's that simple. Just be like John von Neumann and be good at literally everything you ever try without fail. Just be a once in a century human god. Literally what's stopping you? Are you stupid or something?

>>150991068 (OP)
It's an image versus text though process thing

Take an idea you have or a character you came up with. You can probably imagine it clearly and put down in a drawing, but if I were to tell you to put it in writing you'd forget a lot of things. Sure you have a interesting backstory for your oc but you will very easily not write small details that you had in mind that help the character out, you'll fumble with diagloge you've rehearsed in you head over an over. You could probably draw your character well enough but if you needed to provide a written description you'd leave out details or put down ones that aren't good enough.

The image in the head has a lot of unspoken things to it, ones that make it great but aren't always included

>>150991386
I don't mind that the plot is generic since we get some amazing visuals in the tradeoff.

Besides, what's wrong with a straightforward story?

>>150991068 (OP)
The reverse is true as well. Hence, the division between "artist cartoons" and "writer cartoons"

>>150992746
I actualy recall a podcast with the action cartoon writer Steven Melching where he mentioned specifically that he heard the storyboarders fucking hated getting his scripts because he would try to write how the action scene would play out and apparently his ideas sucked dick, which is why he started just flat out writing "AND THEN A FIGHT HAPPENS" lmao

>>150991068 (OP)
Why do so many writers tend to be mediocre artist?

>>150991209
If most writers had the discipline to learn how to animate they would not be writers.

>>150991081
>what is manga and classic cartoons
>>150991068 (OP)
When you pick something that wasn't even finished you show how little interest you have in honesty. And if you prefer some sitcom to a master of his craft that's on you

>>150992662
don't know why people downplay simple stories.
maybe because they feel they have seen it before and need to be stimulated with something bigger and complex.
even if maybe the animation is the stimulation

>>150992791
The thing is that Thief and the Cobbler isn't just simple as much as it's close to being nonsensical and airy. It genuinely feels like it exists only to be an animation showcase and isn't even slightly interested in giving you characters worth loving. Compare it to another simple movie like The Jungle Book, alot of care went into making those characters fun and humane.

>>150992791
I think some people expect great things out of *great names*, which is why I believe people here on /co/ are hostile about Genndy's funny dog movie. They wanted the guy who made Samurai Jack and Primal, not that.

But it's Genndy's project that he wanted to do, not some slop a executive gave to him, or something he did for money's sake.

In this case, Richard Williams is a phenomenal animator, but when he writes, it's rather to the point, or at least most of his projects are. I'll cite the Zippy cartoon, the thread's topic, and that his big academy winner was a adaptation of A Christmas Carol.

Maybe people were wanting something like Don Bluth's Secret of Nihm where it's both great animation and story telling.

>>150992193
storytelling and writing, odd as it may seem, are two different concepts. Storytelling is how well you tell a story, You can tell a poor story well or a good story poorly.

>>150992857
Everyone also noted that Bluth's scripts were much weaker when handling original material instead of an adaptation like Nihm.

>>150993593
What about an American Tail?

I like the story of The Thief and the Cobbler more than most animated films. Just because it's so weird and simple at the same time.

>>150992662
I agree with this. The animation is clearly the main draw for the movie, having a simple story just makes is less overwhelming. Something could be changed obviously but I don't really consider that a big downside.

>>150992387
This hits so damn hard. I've finally gotten off my lazy ass and started writing a story I've had in my head forever, but I keep leaving stuff out I wrote down in the character sheets for their personality and flaws and interests. And Jesus Christ, the dialogue flows so easy in my head but writing it out makes me feel like an autistic alien robot that's never met a Human being before. I tried writing a page earlier and no kidding it took me an hour before I came up with just two lines I felt fit my character. My writing feels so monotonous and boring and the characters aren't popping the way I see them in my head and it's so fucking frustrating.

What's wrong with TTatC's story? It's basic, but it's not bad.

>>150991068 (OP)
Because the average American artist these days does not read enough books, and hardly studies film and scriptwriting. If you go on social media and browse through the accounts of French, British, or Japanese artists, you will find that many of them read or show that they are well-read through how they write their comics. The best artists have some grasp of how film is made as well. The literacy rate in America is low when compared to other first world countries, and the dyslexia rates are much higher than you'd think.

There are far too many artists in America who just browse on their phones and do nothing but take in cartoons, webcomics, fanfiction, play games, and watch anime. If you do not read, you will never be able to write a good story through your art.

>>150991068 (OP)
Being a writer isn't easy. There's a way to be a mediocre writer relying on visuals to compensate but the art has to be better than decent or even good. Also that movie is a clusterfuck with a bunch of bigger problems than the writing.

>>150991081
>>150991175
>>150991251
>Pedantic fuckwits post ITT

Not OP, but the question asked is why so many faggot artists try to write. Maybe try answering that.

>>150996868
JJBA's creator has an excellent book on the topic of creating manga (although the same advice applies towards comics). Araki stresses that a quality mangaka MUST be disciplined and well-trained at both writing and drawing.

Getting good at writing is fundamentally no different than getting good at art, or any creative endeavor for that matter.

>copy and trace a lot until you don't have to anymore (it's like training wheels)
>study your favorite creators, break down their styles, and research what inspired them
>let your imagination wander
>take influence and inspiration from various genres, mediums, cultures, etc

>>150991068 (OP)
There's a cultural reason for it: a lot of American artists HATE the idea of reading books or having to read in order to write effectively. Part of it is because a certain percentage of artists more than likely have dyslexia or some kind of disability, but it's especially because being good at art is what makes them feel good about themselves since they might struggle with reading/writing/math/science, etc. So when they get told "get better at writing", they get pissy because it's like telling them that their art skills are basically worthless and that makes them no different than someone who doesn't/can't read well and also sucks at drawing.

>>150991436
The sheer lack of life experiences and proper social skills from contemporary artists mainly stems from how too many artists these days refuse to get ordinary jobs. If you manage to get through grade school (or even college) without socializing much, having a job is what will grant you life experiences and memorable people to draw from as inspiration.

Except a lot of artists are too spoiled (you don't have to be rich to be spoiled, but it helps) and sheltered. They end up being good at art and trap themselves in a bubble where they think "I'm so good at this - I deserve to continue living like a child forever" that they end up so withdrawn from reality that they can't function working at a non-art job or even an art job where they're not always drawing. That's why a lot of artists bitch about getting crushed by debt after leaving university. And to make things worse, they've basically screwed themselves over

>goes through grade school
>goes straight to university (chooses to take out loans so getting a job isn't a priority)
>graduates with a degree and crushing debt
>if they didn't socialize enough, they won't get an art job quickly (and even if they do regardless of socialization, it won't be secure)
>now has to work a regular job while struggling to find a position where they actually get to draw for a living
>but all of their money goes towards loans, debts, and bills so they're basically debt slaves who can't do shit but grind and pray that they get picked

And to think that all of this could have been avoided had they just:

>picked a regular non-art career
>got a job to pay off loans
>worked said career to build up income
>then went to art school

but asking people to WAIT and take their time is impossible these days

>>150996790
It's too outsider art for most animation fans who only know stuff like Zootopia and Frozen.

>>150997166
source?
most artists complain that they are forced to work a second job to support being an artist

>>150997012
As an artist, one thing that I hate is talking to another artist and they just write in a totally flippant and childish style.
>yah I just drew this lol it's whatev
and it's some fully rendered painting. It makes me feel like they've got nothing of interest behind it. They can draw well but it's pointless.

>>150997166
There's a social aspect too, youth is valued in starting art careers and jobs because you can pay them less and they're theoretically more in tune with what's popular than older people. and rely on their patents for funds. Starting art school in your late 20's or older is an uphill battle.

>>150997166
anon most artists you'd probably consider great from the past never really had "real" jobs because they were able to start a career really early in art. Guys like Frank Frazetta or Joe Kubert were career artists by 17.

>>150997352
also, why shouldnt art be considered an "ordinary" job?

>>150997308
I've had too many artist friends that keep bragging about a comic they want to do. Always some idea they'll have tons of art for but when I ask if they assembled a story bible or an outline they go quiet. I was surprised how many don't even know what an outline was.

They claim they're dry on ideas so I would recommend books or comics they could try reading but never touch. If it's not an animation or a video game they won't try it.

Then they'll come to me a week later moaning about their comic idea again.

>>150997352
All my favorite artists/directors/writers had regular jobs or did all sorts of crazy shit before they got into the creative business. And to be fair, it was a different time back then for guys for Frazetta. Even an art career back then gave you a lot more economic freedom than it does now. Nowadays, it's just for people who come from money or are stupid enough to turn themselves into debt slaves. It's no longer an "ordinary" job.

>>150992780
>what is manga and classic cartoons
A wide range of stories varying wildly in quality with only the best gaining notoriety and distinguishing themselves from the masses?

>>150996969
That's not what he asked at all. That's what you're asking.
Anyway, the answer is that there's also a cultural perception that writing is 'easy.' Anyone can do it! I could do it! I'm writing right now! I can think of a character and have them go through an arc! I can do a cheeky little foreshadowing. People write award winning stories on their first try all the time, like Rocky! Just think about all the 'idea guys' out there who have the idea for a perfect story, they just need someone to draw it for them and then edit it for them and then animate it for them and then maybe write it a little to make it flow better, but it's a great idea!
And then you get hit with fan-fiction level writing. Because the truth is that writing isn't easy. It's a skill that people need to develop that requires time and forethought and editing and which can't be replaced by some dude off the street. There's countless examples of people, especially here on /co/, writing by the skin of their teeth and falling completely apart.

>>150992662
The story isn't straightforward, that's the problem. There's a lot of twists and subversions, and I don't mean that in a "that makes it more intelligent" way. Like in a traditional straightforward story the villain would be Zigzag, but instead it's One Eye who barely does anything himself.

>>150997452
A lot of artists think they can be the next George Lucas or Hideo Kojima but they neglect that Lucas and Kojima are not only both well-read guys, but that they had to work for years and years, and make lots of connections as well as bank off of sheer luck just to get to where they ended up. Lucas only got Lucasfilm because Fox didn't care about the merchandising rights. Kojima only got Kojipro after Konami fired him because the guy in charge of the bank he decided to get a loan from was a major fanboy.

Star Wars was inspired by a bunch of novels on top of several films, George's childhood upbringing, and passions for culture and science and myth and history, etc. Everything Kojima has made stems from his lifelong love of film and how he devours books every other day like it's nothing.

>>150992662
A straightforward/simple story needs to be told just as effectively as a more complex/multi-faceted one. It doesn't really matter how much or how little is literally going down, but how effective the artist is at internal conflict and how emotional tension is established, built up, released, and then concludes.

If you get caught up with making a story "plain" then you risk undermining how the emotional-thematic throughline serves as the foundation for the entire thing. Robert Pyun's Captain America made for a dogshit theatrical release, but the director's cut is superior for that reason. Not every story will benefit from being plain because it can quickly turn things hollow and flat.

>>150991386
>the best character in the movie

>>150997166
Why do people chalk up writing skill to basically being a moral failing? I see this constantly on this board. They almost always say it's about life experience and being spoiled and rarely talk about the actual skill and practice for writing
I'm certain Richard Williams has tons of life experience but that didn't save his movie

>>150995870
Best way to fix that is to read it to yourself out loud and to make sure you put tone descriptors for how theyre suppose to sound

>>150997166
Most artists that aren't making bank on Patreon usually have non-art jobs, anon. Every artist friend I know does as well.
Even the ones that do make bank may have worked prior, it takes a while to build up a monetizable following

>>150998104
It's a complicated thing. To be a good writer, you certainly need the training and study when it comes to craft. You read lots of books and you take apart and examine how your favorite authors write. But outside of that, you need to have life experience and actually draw from the world around you. It's not just about having worked jobs or doing stuff just to fill your life, but forming emotional connections with people and being a well-rounded person.

You can't really make something special if you don't read, don't really talk to people, or don't do anything with your life. This is kinda what Miyazaki was talking about when he said "anime was a mistake", he was referring to how the industry is pretty much filled with anime otakus as both the consumers and the creators, neither of whom have interesting lives or an interest in books to save themselves if their existence depended on it.

Lots of artists are not only sheltered/spoiled/socially withdrawn, but they refuse to learn how to write because they don't want to read or study how the craft of writing works. It's always been a problem with forcing artists to read, but its especially an American one.

>>150998285
Nta but I'll say what I've said before.
I'm proud of being a degenerate, spoiled, shut in and will write and draw regardless
I'm 32 fucking years old, I can't go back in time and unspoil myself, and live an entire lifetime. I'm a loser and drawing and writing is all I have to live for now
At best I'll read some books to help whatever it is I'm writing but it's far too late for me to become "well rounded"

>>150998104
>Why do people chalk up writing skill to basically being a moral failing
because it frees them from the responsibility of thinking about changing the status quo
blaming artists for being bad writers turns the issue into a personal one, artists are just weaker as people
their solution, if you can call it that, is to tell artists to get a real job
a solution which, conveniently, does not require any kind of change to society

>>150998343
It's never too late to emotionally grow as a person or pick up new interests and hobbies that get you out of the house. As long as you love to read (and read good books, mind you) and put a lot of love into what you write and draw, you are doing far more than the average artist contributes to their own stuff.

I believe in you anon

>>150998104
It’s advice for diversity of life experience not the experience of being alive. Williams put all his skill points into technique over story, animators like Chuck Jones did more writing, story men like Bill Peet had experiences outside the industry to draw on.

>>150997246
What makes you say that?

All this to say you don't want to hire a writer to tell you what to draw
lmfao

>>150991068 (OP)
"Jack of all trades, master of [one]"

Dick Willy needed a writing partner to help trim down Thief and the Cobbler. Maybe then it wouldn't have gone overbudget or failed to meet countless deadlines

>>150991209
>Maybe we should teach good writers how to animate.
Or teach artists how to write.

>>150997012
>some kind of disability
ADHD

>>150998343
based madeline /co/ chad

>>150992780
>what is manga and classic cartoons
you do realize there are manga with artist + writer duos? like with death note, one punch man (kinda) and others?

I feel like artists who write are a lot more prone to creating characters who exist solely to fill in a particular archetype popular within multiple fandom communities (Alastor for example with the sexy tumblr man shit). They aren't actually a character created to explore some themes or to even offer an interesting viewpoint into human/non human nature; they exist just to check some boxes and to be consumed by a fanbase. Also /co/ is usually really shit, but sometimes you autists can have a pretty interesting discussion here.

>>151000247
A lot of artists who write are trapped in the Stage 1 or Stage 2 levels of writing where whatever stories they create are VERY shallow and usually marked by self-indulgence and being overly autobiographical. The characters just sorta exist for people to obsess over their looks and project onto or mine for fanfiction rather than actually serve a purpose in the story.

This wouldn't be so bad if the online American art scene encouraged a stronger work ethic and didn't put up with meandering/low effort comics.

I had a really good idea for my comic called Lustless but I did not know how to draw. So I was very frustrated I would have to do it all myself while withstanding a bunch of people shitting on my drawings. It was hard at first. But its been like 4 years or so now and im pretty decent at drawing. And no one who has read the comic tells me the actual writing is bad, and I think thats good because for some people they can draw naturally well like a reflex but mapping the elements of story is difficult to impossible Ive seen many amazing artists lament their inability to think up backstories or worlds for their drawings and characters. On the other hand writers tend to be a bit pretentious and narcissistic and dont want to step out their comfort zone to learn different skills or perspectives. Theres a degree of manic craziness that is needed to make compelling stories imho we need not look further than John Bryne in superhero comics, he was a skilled draftsman and writer but look at how fucking insane and rude and hot tempered he was. Clearly the kind of person who can do both skills welll is going to be a bit nutty and therefore an uncommon type of person.
Just trying to give my two cents not claiming to be expert writer or artist, ultimately unaccomplished myself.

>>150998285
>It's always been a problem with forcing artists to read, but its especially an American one.
Now more than ever this, I believe, is true, and not just among artists either.

>>150998285
>>151000460
IIRC, men just don't read that much in general (usually they're just playing vidya) while women do read, but it's all romance slop

>>150998104
Just world fallacy mixed with generation warfare

>>150991081
Better question then: If so many artists don't have the skillsets for good writing, why don't more of them hire or partner with writers instead of writing trash?

>>151000788
A lot of American artists don't really like being told what to do. They also don't like being met with feedback that isn't just praise and being jerked off. Having a writer/editor would force them to get out of their comfort zone, and they don't want to do that.

That's part of the reason why a lot of creatives at Marvel didn't like Jim Shooter as an editor/writer. He could be a jackass at times, but what really got artists pissy at him was that he was willing to tell them "no" or flat out say their ideas were bad or inappropriate. And when you look at the kind of shit that got rejected by Shooter (as well as how Marvel was a mess management-wise before he took control), you can understand where he was coming from.

>>151000788
Speaking an amateur and an American (because I think >>151000978 is wholly right), ask yourself; if you are an artist who has worked to learn to draw, and you have a story you want to tell or have worked on, why would you have someone else come on board to write it for you? Assuming you can accept that, do you have the money to pay them? Will they want to tell your story? If they are willing, will they actually stick to the vision you had? Or, let's say you're very good at drawing, or got very good at drawing, but have no stories you want to tell- would you want to attach yourself to someone else's vision? Would you really like it?
Now, of course, professionals, they can do this, but it's not without difficulty.

>>150998101
the only real character in the movie actually

>>150998343
Thats all well and good but don't expect anyone to like your stuff.

I think it's the luck of the draw, really. I'm a good artist and I write a lot as well, many saying it's good. But then I have ADHD, never published anything, and basically don't have the drive to create something of my own that features both my art and my writing. I guess there's Productivity, Creativity and Versatility, and you can only ever be good at two out of three, tops.

>>151001905
I think there are definitely some guys who can manage all three enough to get their work out there, but they're not the most common.

>>151001879
I've written several comics over the years, worked with and paid artists for them or been asked to write scripts for a few. The amount of artists who will admit they don't know how to write is pretty damn low from what I've experienced, the worst part is how so many of them are ADHD about their work.

I've been with artists who had a damn good idea for a story that they did tons of sketches for, actually had a good backstory and plan that was ready to go. Only for them to drop it after a fucking month cause they got bored with it and jump to the next idea they'll do the same thing with. I'll see writers stick with an idea even halfway just cause it'll cost money to get it drawn or go through the process of publishing, marketing while I'll see artists drop an idea the moment it starts getting hard outside the art aspect.