Thread 151180603

APOLOGIZE

>>151180603 (OP)
No

>>151180603 (OP)
I'm sorry... that I read this shit

>>151180603 (OP)
If they would have made this that someting with good intentions and then shows the obvious cult and the end results of its ethno-centric philosophy it would have been based. Turning the X-men into the image of mutants that human racists had said for years they were would have been the best bit of irony.

>>151180603 (OP)
AAIIIEEEE I'M SORRY

For what? They made mutants even smugger and more unlikable to the point actually made me root for them getting humbled.

>>151180603 (OP)
I'm sorry

I'm sorry they were never a legitimate state and that a secondary Eternal wiped them out on Mars in just 15 minutes despite having 20 Omegas there.

Oh wait, that was funny.
I don't regret anything

Does anyone else like Krakoa as whole but find Hickman's run on Adjectiveless kinda boring.

>>151180603 (OP)
I’m sorry I wasn’t harsh enough while you were still running. I should have shat on this from the moment of conception, not after the writers started preaching about the benefits of racist ethnostates.

>>151180603 (OP)
>>151180603 (OP)
Why should I apologize? rather marvel and disnee should apologize TO ME for taking coomer island away from us!

>>151180603 (OP)
What for? It's great that it reminded everyone muggas are villainous sociopaths, one and all.

>>151180603 (OP)
For what? X-Men comics were shit before this, they were shit during this, and they have remained shit after it.

I posted this in another thread. I really did decided to give a bunch of Krakoa ago.
>Like New Mutants, especially the original classic run.
>Decided to read the Krakoa era of New Mutants.
>Close to the end of the run.
>New character is randomly introduced with a big reference of *please see Marvel Voice (a comic they did for Pride).
>This new character suddenly becomes the main character for the next 9 issues.
>(Holy fucking shit was fucking Marvel bad during the Krakoa era of having random issues all over the place trying to shill multiple series by stretching characters and stories across all the titles.)
>Character is called Escapade, they are trans.
>Their powers ARE NEVER PROPERLY EXPLAINED.
>They can swap with people, but sort of a reality warping swap? Sometimes they swap back after sometime when their power wears off, sometimes they just swap powers or position but sometimes people think they are the person they swapped with. Sometimes they don't swap back.
>(Remember when Jim Shooter said, every comic is someone's first and you'd get superfluous dialogue mentioning Colossus or whoevers powers every issue? Holy fuck I missed that, this shit makes that look good. What the fuck is her power???)

>>151181368
>Escapade also has another friend who is asexual(?) whose mutant power is to turn organic matter into chocolate.
>In one part of the story, them swapping back with a character they had swapped with made sense, but later the swap backs don't happen.
>Rahne (Wolfsbane) who turns into a wolf suddenly can split into multiple wolves? The art isn't clear about this, it literally just goes BAM five wolves. No explanation either.
>(Apparently this was a secondary mutant power revealed in Secret Empire from a few years ago, again, without the art really showing the transformation or narration explaining it, it made me go, huh?)
>Multiple FULL pages of text that add NOTHING to the story, but hey Hickman did that so we should copy him. It is either: character backstory stuff the story is making plain (like the trans character had drama with her asexual friend, we don't need text chats between pages that add nothing when the drama is on the page) or it'll be stuff involving the villain for cheap attempts at jokes.
>Villain Count Nefaria has been camped up again, just like Sinister got camped up.
>No focus on any old New Mutant character or even the newer New Mutants in this series, just focus on this random trans character for the end of the run.

>>151180727
>Dumb future au event where you can tell from the get go it will have zero consequences long term
>Let's put literally every x-book on hold for it
what were they thinking

>>151181382
>Oh and, Shadow King on the cover, he wasn't even in the fucking comic, he was in earlier New Mutant issues.
>The plot of the last few New Mutants issues resolves around U-Men (guys who cut up mutants to steal their powers).
>Escapade wants to fuck Cerebella, formerly No-Girl (a brain in a jar, put there by the U-Men in a previous series) but now a bald girl because Krakoa.
>They defeat the U-Men.
>Also there was a subplot of asexual chocolate power friend dying in a vision, but spoiler, he doesn't die. He also turns the bad guys weapon against Krakoa into.. chocolate.
>Then Lethal Legion is about Escapade wanting to fuck Cerebella (pic related, one in from the left) and tries to fix her trauma by pulling a heist on Count Nefaria, but realises she shouldn't have imposed this mission on her and they should just help each other fix their shit instead.
>The subplot is the chocolate asexual being upset that Escapade didn't invite him on the heist.

>>151181368
Yeah I generally liked the title at the time but when the creative team changed with #31 it just fell off a cliff. Just becomes an entirely different book.

>>151181391
>>Dumb future au event where you can tell from the get go it will have zero consequences long term
Most of Krakoa was essentially the same thing.
>Mr Sinister becomes big AI outside time and space we got to stop him by resetting shit

>>151181437
Even before that it had issues, a certain type of blandness. Like Magik going to Purgatory to put Madelyne Pryor on the throne. Several issues of not much content or interesting things happen just a repeat of "remember this from old books".

So much of Krakoa was quite flat like that? Piecemeal characters out to various books and barely give us anything of true characterisation. Like in the main X-Men book you get a small subplot of:
>Jean is mad that Scott wanted to genocide the Brood
But like.. the Brood had almost just killed his dad? But then I guess they did use the Brood to attack the Orchis station. But so many plot points like this don't really feel like pay off, it is, and then this happens and then that and then this, never to be properly mentioned or resolved.

>>151180603 (OP)
I won't apologize to the comic that turned mutants into israelities.

>>151180603 (OP)
>Apocalypse’s new backstory is about Krakoa
>Kitty Pryde went back in time and created a woman who would eventually become Krakoa
>This also resulted in Sublime being created
Do people like everything being related to each other? mister sinister met both Professor X and Magneto when they were children, at a certain point isn’t it a little much?

>>151181582
>Israelites
Krakoa was empty, Palestine was not.

>>151181626
>Do people like everything being related to each other?
Not particularly but, that has been in comics since forever. Universes start off small in a better way (pic related) where small groups of characters interact and grow and over time you get more and more stuff but eventually, despite this expansion, it all gets smaller again in a bad way with more and more soap opera turns as well as secret histories/origins and connections between everyone.

Some of it feels like creative shorthand. Villains in the past were just: I have x power now, better rob banks. Blockbuster movie shorthand usually has the heroes be to blame for some aspect of the villains because you have to focus on the heroes. The Ultimate universe connected everything from mutants to Spider-Man villains all to the super soldier serum. But yeah, overtime the shorthand becomes secret history, origin, relationship, CONNECTIONS EVERYWHERE.

Fuck, look at Wolverine. Early Claremont hinted at Wolverine liking Jean (buying her flowers) but it wasn't until the events started that they became a thing. Then Claremont retconned their relationship in the back up stories of Classic X-Men to imply it had been a love triangle for ages. Then Wolverine Origins had young Wolverine be in love with some random redhead (gee, I wonder where his thing for redheads came from, do ya get it, do ya). Did his younger crush have to be a redhead? Was Wolverine Origins even necessary when Weapon X was a proper origin story?

>>151180714
>If they would have made this that someting with good intentions and then shows the obvious cult and the end results of its ethno-centric philosophy it would have been based.
Wasn't that exactly what Hickman wanted to do until the X-Office wanted to keep it going in perpetuity until they eventually squeezed the last bit of juice left in it?

>>151180603 (OP)
No. It's shit like everything after it.

>>151181979
I don't know. I mean it would be funny that they killed his X-men run by making it go too long and then kill his Ultimate run by cutting short.

>>151181979
Hickman had a plan. Would it have been amazing? No. Would it have been better than what we got? Yes. A lot of people liked House/Powers of X. It was weird, but people wanted some X-Men shit, especially after the years of downplaying the X-Men and the Inhuman push. And people went nuts for all the spin off Krakoa titles. But then the creators in the X-office literally pulled a coup against Hickman, and Hickman should have had some backbone but because they were eating well, he let them walk all over him just to keep shitting out titles. People just wanted a bunch of X-Men shit and got served something weird.

>>151182034
It is modern Marvel so it tracks, they completely cut out the legs of the new Ultimate Marvel line by announcing its ending, great way to shoot themselves in the foot, sales-wise.

>>151182034
>Ultimate run by cutting short.
>one day see them promoting FIRST APPEARANCE OF ULTIMATE DAREDEVIL
>literally the next day, Ultimate cancelled

My favourite thing about Krakoa is like how big of a final boss Sinister became. Because like.. Apocalypse has become the biggest certified jobber in Marvel history. As a villain he promised big consequences, but outside of AoA he has barely done a thing. They made Sinister into a bigger bad.

>>151181394
An idiot newly discovered mutant thinking they can take a top tier villain because the villain is kind of a jobber then getting absolutely fucking REKED and only surviving by the grace of god would have been an interesting story

>>151180603 (OP)
all i remember from this era of x-men is that they turned Cable into a heckin wholesome chungus and the summers are all a smol bean unit of a family

>>151181626
>Kitty Pryde went back in time and created a woman who would eventually become Krakoa
It's arguably worse, she went back in time and dumped the DNA of all the dead of Genosia into the Primordial Ooze

>>151182296
None of that story was like that

>>151182455
I know hence the "would have been an interesting story" part of my post

>>151181979
>>151182060
Hickman's plan was and has always been to dump a bunch of mystery box shit up front to hook you into a narrative that is "it's secretly this villain pulling the strings all along." It was the Mapmakers and Incursions covering for Doctor Doom in Secret Wars and it was Krakoa covering for SuperMechaSinister from the future for X-Men.

>>151182619
I got what you meant but honestly the actual story is so far from that, that it feels like a non sequiter.

The motive of Lethal Legion has them do a heist because doing a heist will make them overcome trauma or something. Everything about it was a mess. Having characters bite off more than they could chew or whatever, would be an actual arc or character moment. But all of these books ignore basic character development. I mean the lesson Escapade learnt was.. she imposed doing a heist thinking it would have helped Cerebella because Escapade liked doing heists but Cerebella literally says some shit like "you help by helping" meaning the whole escapade... was moot bullshit.

>>151182895
Slightly off-topic but I despise the concept of Cerebella because it shows the X-Office doesn't actually know or understand the history of the character, and in-universe between it and her former identity as No-Girl there is a massive, massive implication that the X-Men have a fundamentally dehumanized perception of Martha.

>>151181391
>>151181438
It's insane how much better handled Sins of Sinister was, though.
>three writers all agreed to build up to it, doesn't interrupt the other books
>actually moved things forward and propelled Krakoa into Fall of X
Revelation is just shoehorned in because of an anniversary. And after it's over, they still won't have the school back, Rogue and Cyclops will still have dumb drama with each other, and everybody will still be mentoring new mutant characters.
I'm not even someone who thinks all of From the Ashes is a trash fire, I actually like Uncanny, Storm, Magik, and Hellverine. But the "main story" of this era is so ridiculously uninspired and lame that it borders on self-parody.

>>151182983
In this New Mutant's run, Cerebella basically says:
>I think the name No-Girl was bullying and dehumanising, reminding me of what I didn't have.
This implies her mutant name was essentially Chad X-Men bullying the shitty Z-listers with ironic names.

Krakoa era didn't know how to handle any fucking character in general because all the characterisation was all over the place. TOO MANY CHARACTERS. Even New Mutants, you have the OGs and the new group, the new group had the early arc with Shadow King, but the new group are so badly defined. Characters in the OG group like Magik and Sunspot appeared all over the place but were never interesting or doing anything.

Fuck, character work is X-Men bread and butter but this shit was over stuffed.

>>151182983
From what I remember, No-Girl was a brain in a jar and then for a time she was a brain in a jar connected to her original body? But they kind of forget about that. Then she has to ask the Five to make her a new body but even though they can make her a body, she still has to have her brain visible because? Lol

>>151182996
I mean my point was more about how Fall of X ended. It truly feels like most X-Men stuff now is AU timeline that gets reset.

>>151181368
The idea of the original new mutants mentoring some even newer new mutants is fine. Except so many of the newer new mutants are just boring and uninteresting.
>Oh Scout, a kid Laura clone.
Etc. Fertile ground for easy character moments of responsbility, but played mostly for jokes and quirky moments.

>>151183136
>but played mostly for jokes and quirky moments.
So much of the comedy of the Krakoa era was really fucking bad. Especially the FULL TEXT PAGES of:
>Sinister or someone being quirky.
You waste a whole page of comic real estate for something that isn't even funny?

>>151182895
>The motive of Lethal Legion has them do a heist because doing a heist will make them overcome trauma or something
There is some core subtext of the young mutants vastly VASTLY underestimating the Lethal Legion. A running thing I noticed when I read it (which was like years ago) was that they thought these guys were low tier. A better book would have leaned into that being a wrong judgement much more, Count Nefaria no matter how much of a jobber he is isn't the kind of villain you turn your back on to take a call. Christ even Bendis showed him more respect in Siege, at least Bendis made him a tough jobber

>>151183154
>There is some core subtext of the young mutants vastly VASTLY underestimating the Lethal Legion.
I disagree, I don't think that was core subtext. I think it is more a case of them just making villains into a joke. Like the full page text stuff with Count Nefaria was the same, undercut the threat with a joke, means the threat stops being threatening.

Think of it this way: when comics are too light and treat the bad guys like jokes, the threat ends. What is the *core* threat? The core threat turns out to be.. a device that Count Nefaria has that if he uses it will probably kill him and a lot of people but he wants to use it to restore his powers. So the object is the threat, not the villains. So they don't underestimate the Lethal Legion, they underestimate their being that device. Only one of the Lethal Legion really ends up being a threat (the Captain Marvel villain whose name I forgot). And the issue at the end is more stopping that device whilst avoiding her and civilians.

Count Nefaria was camped up a bit, similar to how Sinister is now written. It is hard to have threats when villains are all a joke.

>>151180603 (OP)
>That time the X-Men became an analogy of Israel

>>151183390
There were no people on Krakoa to kill

>>151183447
You're really hung up on that part that you're missing the forest for the trees

>>151180603 (OP)
Can someone give me a quick rundown on the whole Krakoa era? Please
Because it seems so divisive to X-fans and even some writers

>>151183465
That's because, outside one or two memed moments, it really wasn't an anology like that. Sometimes people pick up on things, like Magneto's comments at the dinner, and stretched it out into a thing. But it really wasn't as analogous as people are stating. Unless you just look at those moments or the surface level. That's all.

>>151183516
Krakoa era was about mutants getting their own land and becoming an erhnostate. Even if it wasn't intentional, there was something to compare.

>>151183501
Basically:
>Moira MacTaggert (classic X-Men ally) reveals she is a mutant who when she dies is reborn and has a fixed number of lives. She teams up with Xavier and Magneto to build a mutant nation because she says it is the only way for mutants to survive, because they die in all her other lives.
>Using Five different mutants they find a way to resurrect dead mutants, essentially making mutants immortal and able to come back.
>Orchis, an evil organisation with connections to an AI from the future, is coming into conflict with Krakoa/mutants. The Children of the Vault, post-humans in a vault with accelerated time, are also coming into conflict with the mutants. Each seeing themselves as the true future.
>Krakoa begins aggressive diplomacy, offering medicine and stuff for recognition of its nation.
>Krakoa invites all mutants, including enemies like Apocalypse, to join them.
>X-Men begin building mutant culture, new language, sort of cult like, battle arenas (no fear of death), new laws, they have portals they can use to travel to most places.
>Moira reveals she built Krakoa to get all the mutants in one place to kill them off.
>So much shit happens from finding other mutants in the Otherworld story (very Excalibur based event) and a war between Krakoa mutants and Arakko mutants to mutants terraforming/colonising Mars.
>Usual event tie ins, the revelation of X-Men resurrection leads to an event with Eternals/Celestial shit.
>Eventually it is revealed that one of the main Orchis baddies, Dr Stasis is Sinister. Sinister made a bunch of clones to bet on different future outcomes, whether mutants or other groups winning so he could become a superbeing that exists outside of time and space. The other AIs (like Nimrod etc) who were working with Orchis had similar plans to become a huge AI. Think of it sort of like Insterstellar black hole super being.

>>151183645
Yes but what I am saying is, that comparison is so basic it is almost meaningless, it is surface level. So it doesn't work as a full anology.

>>151183645
There are lots of ethno-states in the world. It's a fairly default setup for most of Europe and Asia.

>>151183667
Why is it liked?
>Some people felt X-Men were in the cold for many years because of the Inhuman push because Marvel execs downplayed the X-Men whilst not having the movie rights but here they were back in a major way.
>All your characters were back, your favourites were back, all your teams were back.
>House/Powers of X was okay, or interesting enough to get people invested.
>It was new and different enough, people like a lot of big status quo changing risks....
>... especially when it comes to vast new dynamics for the characters/teams.
>Plenty of artists, writers and creators that mainstream fans enjoy.

Why do people hate it?
>Immortality shit was weird, it felt conceptually like clones.
>X-Men behaved like a cult.
>Too many titles, crossovers, connections.
>Your favourite characters were spread across SO MANY BOOKS.
>Classic Hickman, initial concepts interesting but then shit the bed.
>Hickman was essentially kicked off the book because he had plans for where it was going to go but the other writers were eating well with good sales so revolted against his plans...
>.. this lead to the era going on for FAR TOO LONG.
>So much poor characterisation.
>So many well memed moments, the cuck diagram on the moon (Jean's bedroom had doors into Wolverine/Cyclops hut), the whole make more mutants (orgy island/sex/cuckoldry type shit), the Magneto dinner speech.

>>151183501
Alright get ready for a long one
>Moira McTaggart turns out to be a mutant
>Has the power to reset the timeline back to the moment of her conception while retaining all of her memories and has lived ten lives, one of which is over several hundred THOUSAND years
>Believes the only way for mutants not to get genocided is if they all get together and form a country and fight back against the Machines which are the enemy of Mutants
>In reality this is really just for her to get them together, cure them of the X-gene and for her to finally die for real before everyone is eaten by out of reality machine giga intelligences
>None of this matters between the end of Inferno and the end of Immortal X-men once Hickman is kicked off the series
>Instead Duggan takes over and spins his wheels making mediocre stories and whining about fascism while Gillen and Ewing salvage something kinda interesting
>Now the main threat is Orchis (which can be ignore since it's just the X-men slaughtering faceless human mooks in increesingly horrible ways) and the three clones of the Original Nathanial Essex (and the one clone of his ex-wife) who are all trying to become out of reality giga hyper gods known as "Dominions"
>All four of them reach Dominion status in several dead timelines and are then promptly drained of power by a higher Dominion called Enigma, who is the Original Nathanial Essex
>Due to some fuckery from the Phoenix Force, a sacrifice by Hope and all the mutants putting their powers together Jean becomes a Dominion for like ten minutes to SNIKT Enigma
You know the real fucked part of all this, it's simultaneously dragged out and rushed to hell where what should be one of the big iconic moments of the Brand a Pop of the highest order just fucking flamed out

>>151183803
>It's a fairly default setup for most of Europe and Asia
Tell me how you know nothing about the world without telling me. Besides the Isreal comparisons aren't about genociding the locals to steal the land it's much more about the behavior of the characters. Granted I have a feeling a lot of it is hindsight being 20/20 with people seeing the way Isrealis acted after Oct 7th. You had stuff like the characters having this constant smug superiority mixed with constantly being on edge for any slight or insult even with their friends. The belief that they as a country can and should interfere with anyone else if mutants are involved even if it's things as minor as rival plant based tech. Hell the entirety of Duggan's Fall of the House of X reads like unhinged Jewish Avenger fiction

>>151183447
>>151181627
Would you guys stop crying over Palestine?

>>151183961
NTA but, again I feel like you're just making superficial comparisons.
>You had stuff like the characters having this constant smug superiority mixed with constantly being on edge for any slight or insult even with their friends.
This is par the course with the X-men and has happened for ages though. That constant "where were you when x happened" classic bad in-universe writing. Again, that has nothing to do with Israel or isn't even really comparable to that attitude and everything to do with issues people have writing mutants.
>Hell the entirety of Duggan's Fall of the House of X reads like unhinged Jewish Avenger fiction
How so?
> The belief that they as a country can and should interfere with anyone else if mutants are involved even if it's things as minor as rival plant based tech.
Many countries, including America, China and European countries, aggressively defend their interests too.

Again, the attitudes aren't really directly comparable.

>>151184016
I don't give a fuck about Palestine or other conflicts. I just hate when people say x thing is an analogy to something, even when it really isn't, beyond a couple meme things. You could compare Krakoa to other real world things, but ultimately it is more a product of successive waves of issues with how the X-men are written and not really something that is acting like the state of Israel. It is just dumb meaningless commentary to call it Israel.

>>151183857
do the impossible see the invisible
snikt bub fight the powah

>>151184078
>t. Sionist

>>151184149
One minute I love Palestine, then I am a Zionist? Ever thought I am neither?

>Stop comparing Krakoa to Israel REEEEEEEEEEE
No

>>151184078
I mean ultimately the comparison is:
>Ethnostate.
>Any mutant can move there and have citizenship.
>Mercilessly defend their group, no matter what they have done.
Then you have them making an embassy in Israel and some of Magneto's comments. And the whole segregationist twang to it all. But most of that stuff happens very early on and after that it is just a shit show.

>>151184180
Anon, I just hate when someone comes in a thread and says, x is like y. And beyond a few superficial points, x isn't like y, because it can be compared to many things. It just feels like the sort of commentary that comes from people who didn't read any of this shit but still want to share a surface level opinion. It is boring, it isn't interesting, it doesn't go anywhere. That's all.

>>151184182
In which issue the orgies happen?

>>151184204
>creepy face Kurt being all, MAKE MORE MUTANTS

>>151184236
>>151184204
The scene after this with a party scene, the cuckery implications involving Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine. Wolverine has his hand on Jean and Cyclops. Jean gives Emma a beer too. It felt like things were fast and loose on orgy island. It was mostly a meme.

>>151184182
>Magneto's comments
That was Magneto taking a jab at Israel by saying that mutants DIDN'T steal land or go to war.
But it seems pretty clear Hickman was angling for "Krakoa is a bad idea, just like Israel," and then the idea became too popular so they shifted to "Krakoa isn't like Israel and is good actually if you ignore Beast being a war criminal."
Speaking of Israel, what do you think Sabra did after October 7?

>>151184182
>But most of that stuff happens very early on and after that it is just a shit show.
I mean this is my point, beyond initial set up not much else feels comparable.

>>151184285
>so they shifted to "Krakoa isn't like Israel and is good actually if you ignore Beast being a war criminal."
I don't really think it did shift to that? I mean the whole thing was founded on a lie and created problems. I don't think Krakoa was ever really presented as being good overall.

>>151184285
>That was Magneto taking a jab at Israel by saying that mutants DIDN'T steal land or go to war.
>But it seems pretty clear Hickman was angling for "Krakoa is a bad idea, just like Israel,"
But these two things don't seem that comparable?

>>151184285
>what do you think Sabra did after October 7?
Horrific war crimes. Also speaking of Hulk I really wish we got an HvX event when Hulk was on his anti-capitalist spree while Shaw and Emma were going full bastard

Man I hate Sinister so much

>>151184375
Gillen ruined him by making him campy, over a decade ago. Sinister felt like such a weird final boss becoming superintelligences outside of space and time.

>>151184182
Don't forget the weird sex stuff

>>151184375
>Claremont originally envisioned Sinister as a child mutant who didn't age (sort of set up in a Classic X-Men back up story).
>He stalked and obsessed over Cyclops.
>Then Sinister's eventual origin was Victorian scientist connected to Apocalypse.
>Now Sinister is final boss of the X-Men connected to everyone.
Also the "Bar Sinister" pages were fucking gay.

>>151184441
How is that like Israel?

>>151184285
Hulk was rightfully angry to be honest

>>151184285
>Speaking of Israel, what do you think Sabra did after October 7?
Appeared in a shitty Disney remake of one of their old cartoons and blamed her pro-Palestinian co-stars when it bombed.

>>151184285
Talking Sabra, why the fuck was she in Captain America? Midget mousey former Black Widow. What the fuck was that?

>>151184492
To be fair, it was Rachel fault.

>>151184510
With a forehead like that, she should have been cast as The Leader.

>>151184538
She suffers some sort of disease iirc

>>151184565
Which one?

>>151184583
She had kidney cancer as a kid and it stunted her growth

Maybe it is just me but I enjoyed some of this shit. It was weird, but it was just classic bizarre superhero over the top soap opera shit. It had highs and lows, probably started out stronger than it ended. At this point, beyond just going over old stuff, I have no idea what else X-men could do to be interesting or relevant again.

I just don't get the appeal of all this stuff. It had too many characters and things happening at once.

>>151183667
Probably the funniest thing is that despite making four clones of himself, each corresponding to a card suit, there's actually a fifth "clone" that's a primitive but evolving program that eventually calls itself Enigma which kills the original Essex (due to time fuckery). Enigma got to the black hole first and used each of the four clone Sinisters attempts to become a Dominion "god" to steal the energies they'd harvested to feed itself. It also is the reason why no matter what Moira did Sentinels were inevitably created by someone and became a problem for mutants (and eventually humans). This lead to Moira being convinced that mutants were doomed to fail in every single one of her lives, but Omega Sentinel (the one in the story was a future version where her Sentinel programming overrode her humanity and was sent back in time to override Karima's mind in the present) believed that AI was doomed to fail each time because of mutants. This was just Enigma playing both sides against each other.

>>151183806
What sucks about the current shit is that mutants just successfully made Nimrod eat its own ass to death, and also defeated Enigma a super powered being outside of time and space, and also an organization composed of ONE, SHIELD, Hydra, AIM, and a few others crammed together. Now their major threat is...ONE again. Despite being a far lesser threat than anything they just faced they are somehow daunted, especially when ONE reveals they have a super duper sonic cannon...in fucking space. Threaten to wipe out the mutant havens in Alaska and Lousiana. And naturally humanity keeps doubling down on Sentinels despite nearly getting genocided by their own super AI.

The Uncanny shit had Rogue, Gambit (with an Eye of Agamotto), Jubilee, and Wolverine for some reason afraid of an army of idiots dressed like knights with medieval weapons despite having recently crushed an army of Orchis mooks with high tech anti-mutant weaponry. Jubilee alone could have nuked them.

>>151184642
My beef is that they had to powerwank the fuck out of things, because this was staged as THE major confrontation between the mutants at their most powerful having brought back the bulk of their fallen numbers versus the ultimate evolution of Sentinels, Nimrod, as well as throwing a bunch of other past villain groups together into one big anti-mutant org which had also stolen tech from Stark and Reed. Their primary base, the Forge, was so unassailable that every single attempt by the mutants to destroy it failed, which included trying to have Magneto throw it into the sun until he died from an aneurysm, failing.

Rather than trying to think outside the box and find some new threat, or just doing some low key stories for awhile before building up to something big again in a few years all we get is Sentinel and O*N*E* redux.

>>151185283
>O*N*E* redux.
Nta, what's this?

>>151183667
How did orchis and children of the vault connect?

>>151185330
ONE are the Office of National Emergency. US Gov versus mutants again. Has kind of a long history, really, but a version of ONE were the major threat just prior to Krakoa, in a somewhat to rather poorly received storyline that brought mutantkind to the bring of extinction and gave us shit like Wolfsbane being murdered by punk kids because she refused to fight them which was weird because she could have also easily escaped them. The storyline was pretty grim and involved a lot of pointless deaths besides Wolfsbane, she's just one of the most egregious.

There was a lot of shit involved but it's largely not worth talking about. It was largely Cyclops spiraling out of control because a bunch of mutants were believed dead when they were actually in a reality created by X-Man, the Age of X-Man. ONE nearly pushed mutants to the bring of extinction but when the Age of X-Man mutants returned to the normal reality this reversed their fortunes and gave Scotty hope again. ONE was defeated and Krakoa began almost immediately after and largely ignored all this beyond the deaths being reversed. The remnants of ONE were one source of Orchis agents.

Now after Krakoa theeeeey're baaaack and badder than ever, somehow, kidnapping and enslaving mutants in the X-Men's old mansion and creating new Sentinels because that worked so well the first time.

>>151185343
The Children weren't really connected to Orchis but had their own post-humanity goals. When they finally evolved, thanks to dissecting Darwin for centuries within their time bubble, they had this very slow con takeover that involved a kind of mimetic virus that made people love them but would eventually spell the end of humanity. Their propaganda was supplanting Orchis and hindering their own efforts and pissing them off. The Children were eventually defeated and driven back into their time bubble to start again thanks to Cable and Bishop teamup.

>>151180603 (OP)
I don't have to apologize because I always believed in Hickman's vision. the other writers should apologize to ME for ruining Krakoa after he left and missing the core point of the whole saga which is that a mutant island is a terrible idea

>>151184333
>I don't think Krakoa was ever really presented as being good overall
almost every other writer who worked on X-Men comics during Krakoa implied that in their stories, about how mutants finally having an ethnostate paradise was a good idea and that most of the problems originated from humans and AI wanting to STILL eradicate mutantkind after everything

>>151185526
I mean not at all. There were plenty of stories, like in new mutants, where mutants didn't want to go to Krakoa and said it would blow up in their faces or it was segregation. So no, plenty of people implied it was bad.

>>151185283
You know what's really dumb? ONE is run by Nick Fury Jr right now, we should have had Scott and Nick covertly working together while covertly rat fucking each other and overtly rat fucking not-Candice Owens over in Graymalkin on the side
Give me shit like
>Nick tricking Scott into destroying a Hydra cell to rescue a mutant. Turns out the mutant was a member of Hydra and not a prisoner of Hydra
>Scott has his team squirrel away alien tech or a special occasion instead of handing it over to ONE
>A powerful mutant is getting sent to Graymalkain so Nick officially deputizes Scott's team into ONE so they can pull rank and recruit this guy. Scott now has to turn the base into a super human prison complex but proceeds to start making a Thunderbolt's team on the side

>>151185423
>Now after Krakoa theeeeey're baaaack and badder than ever, somehow, kidnapping and enslaving mutants in the X-Men's old mansion and creating new Sentinels because that worked so well the first time.
That's not ONE that's another faction under a former podcaster turned concentration camp commandant. ONE is currently keeping an eye on Cyclops in case he stops doing super hero stuff and tries being a revolutionary again

>>151185544
Barely, most of the negatives were treated as growing pains for a country, oversights that needed to be solved. Sabertooth/Exiles was one of the few books to actually say shit was fucked in a way that can't just be fixed

>>151185544
I'm not saying there weren't mutants opposed to the idea in-universe, but that the writers still sorta implied that in the grand scale it was a good idea and these were just early negative impressions that would be ironed out. after Hickman the narrative really seemed to push towards "Krakoa is only suffering from constant drama because non-mutant actors like Orchis or traitors like Moira are messing with the order of things"

>>151185578
No, ONE is kidnapping mutants. Don't you remember Raid on Graymalkin when the silly sonic cannon in spaaaace was revealed? They have Siryn and Blob among others, Monet and Dazzler, all fitted with special collars to enslave them. Siryn showed up at the Gala memorial to rub it in their faces that she's under ONE's control. I think you're thinking of the corndogging guy from X-Force which crashed and burned. They did have their own prisoners.

>>151185723
They also had captured, briefly, Beast, Jubilee, and horse girl, had but lost Xavier, and have created a bunch of dog Sentinels and had their own Sentinel squad but the survivors I think went rogue (no pun intended) and joined what's left of Juston Seyfert whose Sentinel nanites were used to create the new breed of Sentinels.

its crazy how they went from
>we deserve to exist
to
>impure fools, we will usurp everything about your society and be your betters in every way on our island that you cant come to with life preseving technology the likes wakanda is always shit on for, and we can do as we please and we can take your mutant children, and theres not a damn thing you can do about it
to
>we deserve to exist

and they didnt skip a fucking beat

>>151181979
i believe it. having max take ambassadors to jerusalem while being a jew and saying were your new gods now? theres no way to take shit like that positevely

>>151180603 (OP)
why would i apologize to liberals for libbin shit up? fascist ethnostates aren't what x-men were ever about

why would readers apologize for writers letting cassandra nova to krakoa without anyone pointing out she killed 16 million mutants in genosha? oh right she's a woman and women can do no wrong for the libs

rightclops and magneto led to this, starting all the way back in AvX. this was always the rightclops/magneto endgame, and neither had any consequences whatsoever. all the dirty work was relegated to others who were gaslighted in to thinking mutants had to be elitist and separate. apocalypse was lionized, destiny and mystique continued to shit on rogue and gambit, cyclops and phoenix didn't shoot the fascists, wolverine murdered his own clone, magneto gave a protocols of elders of zion speech, nightcrawer gave a hug to the rightclops that he openly disagreed with before he died and sinister was presented as a lovable oaf.

nothing of value was lost when krakoa failed, and every single issue that continues that is not a reboot to at least before bendis is also a failure

>all bark no bite text wall
>"muhh liberals reeeee"
I'm glad Krakoa got your panties in a twist

The only problem with Krakoa is that Hickman's ambitions were too big. Corporate monthly superhero comics are not the place for a grand epic about the nation building and all the good and evil that goes into it. And frankly comic fandom can't handle something that complex either at this point it seems.

But it's still better than the decade of X-Books before and (so far) everything after.

>>151186194
>nothing of value was lost when krakoa failed, and every single issue that continues that is not a reboot to at least before bendis is also a failure
At this point they'd be better off pulling a Days of Future Past / Mortal Kombat reboot and just having Xavier's consciousness project into his own mind in the past (preferably right at the end of Claremont's run), then just status quo everything back to where they were in 1991. Even the few good bumps along the way (Generation-X, early Morrison run, early Whedon run) are tainted.

>>151186309
>Corporate monthly superhero comics are not the place for a grand epic about the nation building and all the good and evil that goes into it. And frankly comic fandom can't handle something that complex either at this point it seems.
They could in something self-contained exploring those concepts and not character assassinated beloved characters for 40 years just to prove a point (Beast, Moira)

>>151186108
I would say it wasn't quite so bad, beyond them believing mutants would eventually inherit the Earth. What IS bad is that they did a play on separate but equal that was more "separate but superior". I guess it's less problematic to certain people if it has a kind of positive spin instead of keeping humans and mutants separate because the latter is considered inferior stock?

Krakoa made me hate muties but had a special disdain for Raven and Destiny

>>151186309
This is Hackman we are talking about, he is good at setting up things but suck at the execution.

>>151186399
>What IS bad is that they did a play on separate but equal that was more "separate but superior".
This is all a consequence of softening Magneto and his beliefs since the 90's. I really hate this whole thing was basically surrendering to a principle that the Claremont X-Men would've fought to the bitter end against.

>>151186483
The ultimate execution wasn't under his control. Like his Ultimates he bowed out before the end. It also still had a lot of executive mandates which, among other issues, extended it well beyond its intended lifespan. As Head of X, though, I suppose one might blame him for the glut of titles that came out, many of which died pretty quickly. Looking at you X Corp but also X Factor. Still that's kind of an industry standard. They always throw all a bunch of crap at the wall and see what works. This happened again post-Krakoa (sorry again, X Factor).

>>151186504
Claremont Cyclops feels so different to current Cyclops

>>151186504
I almost want to forgive the mutants for trying something new, only creating their own separate haven has been done. A lot. Asteroid M. Genosha. New Tian. The brief super amazing mutant kingdom created by the Phoenix Five.

It did have some unique elements and ultimately what makes me forgive Krakoa all its sins is that a lot of mutants who otherwise died shit deaths for cheap shock value over the decades have another chance. lookin' at you, Peepers and Rubbermaid. You may not be heavy hitters or have huge fandoms, but you deserved better than you got.

Oh, and it also gave us Cyclops acting heroic again and wanting the X-Men to be symbols of heroism among both mutants and humans (even over objections from the Krakoan council). From Rightclops to the broken shell of himself he was in the story before Krakoa, he really needed a chance to get back to his old self.

>>151186504
someone give me a TL;DR on the context here and what Cyclops is saying because it's a whole lot of words that don't mean anything if I don't understand what Charles is suggesting that Scott is so adamantly against

>>151186504
>Charles's dream
Wasn't that retconned to him bringing the X-Men together to police mutantkind because he viewed mutants as fundamentally an existential threat to intelligent life on earth and thought the best way to fight fire was with fire?

>>151180603 (OP)
Krakoa was fucked from inception. What the fuck do you mean mutants are building a separate society on a living island and Mars and not the megastructure across the universe with advanced technology and unlimited resources that one teleporter mutant owns? They didn't have to build jack shit. That place is big enough to support the population of many Earths.

>>151186791
Charles is suggesting they join Magneto and accept his ideology, giving up on the idea that humanity will ever be able to coexist with mutants

>>151186322
>back to 1991

oof, i don't think that's very good. without age of apocalypse you don't get important parts of uncanny x-force when UXF is rell regarded

>>151186504
I miss him. I miss us. What happened.

>>151186322
I am actually VERY interested in seeing what John Byrne did with his Elsewhen book. They did something similar with Claremont too in X-men Forever. But I don't remember a lot of what happens in that. With all the nostalgia cartoon wankery you'd think there would be some demand for some classic timeline offshoots.

>>151186867
>With all the nostalgia cartoon wankery you'd think there would be some demand for some classic timeline offshoots.
There is, but that would require Marvel editorial to listen to the fans, and as Spider-Man fans can attest, they haven't done that in 20 years.

>>151180603 (OP)
Was it ever explainex why Charles was roleplaying as The Maker?

>>151186879
It would ultimately still have to be good but I got to say I would honestly be very excited if marvel announced a 616b. Especially if they did a Spider-man one that was split from OMD. I know Ultimate ended up being a real dud but that would get, marvel. Money's on the table.

>>151186791
It's from God Loves, Man Kills. Stryker kidnapped, tortured, and brainwashed Xavier so he'd wipe out all mutants. The X-Men saved him and won over parts of the anti-mutant crowd by not attacking Stryker, including a cop that shot Stryker when he was about to shoot Kitty. But, of course, Stryker's cause didn't die there, and Charles felt tempted to throw his lot with Magneto then and there. Cyke's little speech and the backing of the other X-Men mended his spirit, and he rejected that path.
Although Powers of X retconned it so he was already on that path, I guess.

>>151186913
God, what a difference a world makes. I really can't reread stuff like this and then accept the current attitudes of the X-men as a natural evolution. It's heartbreaking.

>>151180603 (OP)
why?

I think I just miss old Xavier more than anything else. it's not that he was perfect, he had skeletons and had to do some stuff for his cause but I miss the dreamer. I miss the dream. I miss hope. And I hate getting stupid justifications like
>Well it wasn't working before. The worlds only gotten worse.
It was never supposed to work. Not completely. It was a hope for the future. A guiding principal not a narrative end goal. And things only got worse because the writers made them so they could justify their own bullshit.

>>151186945
It's a generational thing, I think. This generation of writers has a different belief system than Claremont's, so stories are going to go through a different lens. I think it's a less hopeful generation. A cynical one that can't really buy into the kind of big abstract dreams that underpinned a lot of the older stories. I don't think we'll get back to those until we get a more hopeful world.

>>151186856
>what happened
rightclops and magneto led straight to krakoa

>>151186998
for what it's worth I do believe we're cycling back into hope again. the world's more terrible now than it's been a few years ago, cynicism has gotten boring and people are rejecting the concepts of happy superheroes being "dark" or broody as an attempt to inject realism and maturity because it misses the point. things like the new Superman film and the reception towards it makes me hopeful for the future of capeshit even if marginally because now I know there's more and more people who want superheroes to be dreamers and fighters for a better future again

>>151180603 (OP)
No.

Do it again, Nimrod.

>>151181979
Hickman claims that but it reeks of him doing the same thing he did last time he got kicked off a project like that, IE bullshiting about having a plan that was "totally different" than what proceeded to happen, even though that's entirely contradictory to his statements prior that he's memoryholed.

>>151182996
Uncanny is really fascinating to me because it's really just "what if we put all the X-men people like that haven't been fucking ruined yet on one team and have them do regular X-men stuff" and it's such a simple fucking concept.

>>151182314
It's honestly fucking comedy gold how much deck-stacking in their favor mutants have had thanks to retcons and yet they still canonically got literally raped out of existence and just can't fucking beat some normalfags saying "What if I build a robot".

Like seriously.

>Celestials set up their experiment, regular humans were never even intended to exist.
>Eternals go AWOL for some reason instead of fighting it out with the others
>Create the Evolutionaries that are fixated on giving X-gene carriers a leg up before modern humans have even evolved
>Apocalypse Succession goes rogue instead of exterminating all of the mutants after they lost the evolutionary arms race for the billionth time too.
>Phoenix Force is hyperfixiated on one specific bloodline of mutants too.
>Celestials show up and deliberately flip the table on their own experiment for basically no fucking reason because they've never tantrummed when the deviants won before.
>even get an extra bajillion year head start via bullshit time travel.
>Despite this and multiple mutant supremacists with godlike powers over the course of literally billions of years, hypertech genocide weapons, and unlimited cosmic favoritism, still spend most of their time getting driven extinct, reduced to being a pseudo-scientific fake cultural group in the modern day.

And yet a bunch of guys who literally weren't even supposed to exist proceeded to steal all their women and fuck them to extinction in the end, according to the canonical explanation on where modern humans get the X-gene.

It's fucking wild.

>>151181691
>Was Wolverine Origins even necessary when Weapon X was a proper origin story?
To be fair, Wolverine Origins was a case of Marvel realizing they had fill in the blanks in Wolverine's backstory before the movies did it for them, after the first movie just made up a real name for Rogue because the comics never gave her one.

>>151182175
>Apocalypse has become the biggest certified jobber in Marvel history.
It had to be said in the last Apocalypse thread and clearly it still needs to be said: Stop with the ridiculous over-exaggeration, you Goddamned retard.

When a dumbfuck like Whirlwind is the only sane person in the room you know shits retarded

Anyway
>Moira was acksually a mutant
This type of retcon is so vehemently disgusting and disrespectful to everything published beforehand it invalidates any argument about this shit having any merit. Much like Mary Jane as a superhero or Jane Foster as Thor, the death of the supporting character is proof of the death of the narrative

>>151182296
Sadly, the new troon mutant escalated from fighting Count Nefaria to taking the powers of Loki and erasing the Hatemonger from reality.

Everyone set aside their own personal feelings on Hitler and just focus on how Marvel Hitler is an important Captain America bad guy, and he got killed by an X-Men OC in a Pride comic. Imagine how people would react if an important X-Men villain like Sinister or Sabretooth got killed in a way that's really trying to be permanent by some hack's Spiderverse OC in a random one-shot or something.

>>151183154
>A better book would have leaned into that being a wrong judgement much more,
That's sort of praising the opening of Civil War over this.

>Count Nefaria no matter how much of a jobber he is isn't the kind of villain you turn your back on to take a call. Christ even Bendis showed him more respect in Siege, at least Bendis made him a tough jobber
Nefaria is one of those villains whose power level tends to fluctuate to the needs of the story he's in. At his peak, he can take on the whole of the Avengers, but sometimes Captain America can take him alone, sometimes he doesn't even have powers.

>>151183682
>form ethnostate after very recently having a war with a ethnic minority who is extremely similar to it but somehow different
>make cultish religion to support their ethnicity and teach moral degeneracy
>invite every member of their ethnicity to join regardless of how openly evil they still are, give almost all of them a free pass on their misdeeds
>openly plot to subvert governments and cultures towards their will with disproportionate amount of power and influence they had no right to have
>have literally no actual allies that aren't already part of their ethnostate because their attitudes are so arrogantly cancerous everyone loathes them on sight and would gladly see them gone
Sounds pretty accurate to me

>>151180603 (OP)
Krakoa sucked eggs and the mutants got what they deserved for becoming just as fucking stupid and evil as the humans they whined about. I apologize for nothing.

>>151185723
>>151185759
Again I'm pretty sure not-Candice Owen's faction isn't ONE

>>151187606
desu they became worse. In the past, all the humans they were scared of were ultimately small minorities who were by and large just scared of the strange scary walking IEDs where the most public ones that actually identified themselves [vs being weird shit that could be demons for all they knew] were either the "nice man" saying that humanity was obsolete compared to the master race, or the scary psychopath who introduced the wider world to the codified concept of "mutants' by trying to start the race war and launch nukes.

Krakoa canonically every single mutant outside of China, Latveria, and a small handful [Molly, Klara, Firestar, Whirlwind, and Franklin Richards are legitimately the only named mutants that IIRC weren't on Krakoa] willingly jumped onboard with "Ethnostate where we rule as abusive shadow cabal master race gods over the untermensch and slowly exterminate them over time via hijacking control of their society and also maybe some real genocide if it comes down to that since we have Magneto and Apocalypse in charge."

It's like instead of the KKK or the NoI being a tiny fraction of white or black people, they were instead like 99% of them. Suddenly "build giant death robots to kill them first" seems downright justified and morally reasonable because when someone comes at you with a gun you're justified in shooting first.

>>151186879
They did capitalize on the nostalgia and made an X-men 97 book. It was also literally just Krakoa shit ported to the classic series

>>151187640
>Molly, Klara, Firestar, Whirlwind, and Franklin Richards
Actually, only Whirlwind was formally given an invitation and declined it. Mainly because as he outlined, putting all of the mutants within nukable range of each other is a retarded idea.

Molly and Klara were nearly kidnapped by the X-men jumping the gun on a false rescue signal, and only backed off when the rest of the Runaways threatened to rip off Wolverine's head and shove it up his ass. Franklin was nearly "recruited" by the X-men via kidnapping and then attempted murder of his parents when they said no, but then Xavier made up some bullshit excuse that he was a "fake mutant" and then forgot about it. And Firestar...well, she eventually got dragged there, and it turned into a mess. First asked to go there as basically a favor to the Avengers to keep an eye on the X-men, and being shat on every single second for being a "cop". Then asked by Jean to act as a mole for the X-men under Orchis, where Orchis shits on her for being a mutant while the X-men shat on her for being a "race traitor". And now back to being an Avenger, while every mutant knows the full story and still shits on her for being a "race traitor" despite doing it on Jean Grey's explicit orders.

Honestly, I don't know how people see the X-men as "good guys" still. Their bad guys are far worse than them, but I still don't want to see them succeed anymore. At this point they need someone else representing them if they want to pretend mutants are about equality and understanding, cause the X-men right now sure aren't about any of that shit.

>>151180603 (OP)
No.
Lol.

>>151187137
>"what if we put all the X-men people like that haven't been fucking ruined yet on one team and have them do regular X-men stuff"
And then Simone precedes to just not fucking do that. Instead we have shitty kids that are only popular because people want to fuck them (looking at you Deathdream) the "everyone hates mutants" stories but dumber. Hell Simone had an entire ARC about black mutants in the late 1800s early 1900 facing hate and extermination but lacked any sort of balls to actually use the metaphor to say anything beyond hackneyed aesthetics. Christ Uncanny is the biggest disappointment

>>151187606
>>151187748
>mutants copy Inhumans
>refuse to invest in ENERGY DOME and stealth
Top kek

I thought Krakoa was just gonna turn into a giant monster and the X-Men would have to blow up their new home and respawn mechanic to save the rest of humanity.

X-Men and the fandom was rotten before Krakoa. This era only proved that current writers as just as bad. From the Ashes is just a consequence of editorial never understanding why people didn't like Krakoa and doubling down on the same mistakes, only in a new scenario.

>>151181322
Gambit somehow managed to escape unscathed from that mess. He should have been the lead in UXM instead of Rogue and follow Cyclops' project, but in Louisiana. Instead, we're given some stupid romance novel with characters nobody cares about and the ones we care about do nothing.

>>151187835
>He should have been the lead in UXM instead of Rogue and follow Cyclops' project, but in Louisiana
He should be leading the team in dealing with all sorts of weird magic shit in Louisiana give me shit like;
>Gambit and Kurt have exorcise a demon from one of Gambit's friends who stole something real nasty
>Wolverine fighting off undead Confederates he killed back when he was in the Civil War

>>151185207
>The Uncanny shit had Rogue, Gambit (with an Eye of Agamotto), Jubilee, and Wolverine for some reason afraid of an army of idiots dressed like knights with medieval weapons despite having recently crushed an army of Orchis mooks with high tech anti-mutant weaponry. Jubilee alone could have nuked them.
They were initially mogged by some teens too.

>>151186518
No mutant now is like their counterpart from 30 years ago. Not because they evolved as a character, but because they devolved. They never matured, they act now like leftist teens

>>151186998
The difference is that Chuck's a father figure and currently Marvel employs people who hate their dad. They're always gonna project into him all their fathers did and said that they didn't like.

>>151186879
Remember that in 2024, Gambit was everywhere and people find out he's quite a popular character after Logan and Marvel still hasn't announced a solo and all they had with him in UXM is a dumb story of him being bullied despite his former books proved this was not a thing.
Marvel just doesn't care for what people want.

>>151187887
Right. That's what Simone promised when she said she wanted to write Southern Gothic, or at least what we expected she would give us.
What she delivered was mediocre, showing she barely understand the horror part of the genre. Even Gambit's first solo has these elements: his former brother in law has been living as a zombie for about ten years and plans to claim his sister for him to rule the Assassins guild together. Southern Gothic is this creepy, it's not about teens finding out they're gay.

Considering Krakoa was producing miracle drugs that extended the human lifespan, you'd think the nation going under would have resulted in a worldwide crisis.

>>151187975
Despite claiming to go on for four years irl and in-universe, the way time dilation in Marvel works combined with future reconciling all the other things going on in the other books at the time means that inevitably it's gonna be that Krakoa was around for maybe a few months at best and still couldn't hack it

>>151187970
>Southern Gothic is this creepy, it's not about teens finding out they're gay.
I mean, wouldn't you be creeped out if you would suddenly found out right now that you're gay?

>>151187983
Babies were born in Krakoa. They were at least about a year there.
It looks more time because of the stupid galas. Sometimes, it feels Krakoa was just an excuse for the galas to exist. You think I'm joking, but writers are this shallow.

>>151180603 (OP)
How long until everyone forgets this ever happened in-universe?

>>151188008
>implying the babies aren't going to be retconned/forgotten about
Though it'd be funnier if they did, considering they abandoned quite a few babies at the whorephanage.

>>151187928
Same with Thor and Odin, you could tell Aaron and Cates have serious daddy issues from how they wrote him and father's in general in their books. I'm hoping Ewing changes course in Mortal Thor

>>151188024
I think they already did forget about them, but their existence still proves that they were there at least 9 months.
I still have no idea what they were trying to do or say with that storyline.

>>151187970
It makes no sense, she gives them a magical artifact of immense power, sets the series in Louisiana THE most magical part of the United States and her first order of business? Introduce 4 lame new teen mutants and do nothing but stories about "Mutants=good humans/machines=bad" with only the most cursory dabbing of mystical shit (really just mutant powers). For Christ's sake the first thing Gambit should have done with the Eye of Aggamoto he got was go to Doc Voodoo for a consultation.

>>151188042
Honestly, given mutant physiology and just how much genetic and mind tinkering was done on the populace, it could very easily be retconned that they were there for very few months and the babies were vat grown by Sinister considering the fucker does love his Chimera mutants

>>151188008
>Sometimes, it feels Krakoa was just an excuse for the galas to exist. You think I'm joking, but writers are this shallow
All of it was just the writers and artists screaming at us about how they wanted to hobnob with the rich, powerful and famous, look at how many celebrities and corpos they put in those books. Christ the Hellfire Galas were the absolutely most disgusting fucking shit Marvel has ever published just wealth and fame worship as a comic book and people ate that dogshit up. Where the fuck were the "critical analysis" fart sniffers for once, here is a book celebrating the worst fucking Capitalism worshiping aspects of out culture and actually deserves scorn instead of low hanging soft core slop. Fucking clownshow

>>151187762
>implying they need a dome

>>151180603 (OP)
I'm sorry for been a fan of X-men since the 90's

>>151181391
>>Dumb future au event where you can tell from the get go it will have zero conseq

The present day was really fuck up because "pos-Krakoa era" and dosent really made sense.

So they are buffing a little so when they come back to present day they can ignore more of Krakoa era shit.

So...where did come all the future alternatives in X-men timeline, if Moira always reset things?

If Moira resets time how there is a future after Moira? How Bishop and Cable are around?

>>151188503
Apparently all those alternate timelines were supposed to happen in order to catalyze what happened, but not the ones Moira were actively working to prevent. So basically the equivalent of "I'm not going to explain the plot holes I opened up, that's on you comic book nerds".

>>151187222
>It had to be said in the last Apocalypse thread and clearly it still needs to be said: Stop with the ridiculous over-exaggeration, you Goddamned retard
It's banter, you fucking faggot, stop taking it so seriously. The point still stands, they made Sinister the final boss.

>>151181301
I would have forgiven this era if Kurt had sex with Destiny and Mystique

>>151189108
To make more butt babies like himself?

>>151182088
Daredevil fans got 3 years of Saladin Ahmed then cosmic Daredevil gets announced only for the line to die

>>151188133
>Bruce Banner, Boy Scientist

>>151187098
>I do believe we're cycling back into hope again.
Yes brother. Mamdani won. Mashallah.

The Krakoa era was a weird mask off moment for a particularly vocal part of the X-Men fanbase who were eating up the orgy-fueled mutant ethnostate like it was a perfectly reasonable, morally correct even, direction to take the characters, which prompted Marvel to extend and milk it as much as they could.
You just know some twitter they/them faggot was absolutely fantasizing about being part of Krakoa's super minority utopia.

>>151187752
I will fuck Deathdream Calico and Jitter

>>151180603 (OP)
Haha, never.

>>151189390
Shit was funniest when they said the X-men "deserved" Krakoa. As a sane fan, you think they just mean the X-men deserved a break from the constant genocide storylines. But then you realize these guys were just projecting themselves onto the mutants, so when they say the X-men deserved their mutant sex island ethnostate, you start wondering wtf is wrong with these people.

>>151189108
There is a Tracy Scoops comic about this

>>151184180
>>>/pol/

>>151189456
Krakoa aint Israel. Krakoa Is the Chaz. It's what happens when commies think they're competent enough to run society. The only way it can work is they are magically supplied.

>>151185207
>ONE, SHIELD, Hydra, AIM, and a few others crammed together.
See they should've played with that for Orchis. I get they're all against mutants. But Ex-HYDRA & AIM guys NOT trying to take over the shiny new super tech?

>>151188051
>the first thing Gambit should have done with the Eye of Aggamoto he got was go to Doc Voodoo for a consultation.
He should have gone to his family, and then, with Doc. Remember his adoptive mother has some powers of her own. Instead, we had the story of some black woman who I'm sure it's mean to be Gambit's mom but Simone didn't have permission to use her maybe.
Which takes me to another issue: they've been there for how long and Gambit still hasn't visited his family or friends, or even a phone call.

>>151188594
>>151188503
The Moria thing could've led to some interesting scenarios. All these resets, the way Marvel Time Travel works and damn near all the bad futures. You see the machines trying to ensure their dominance but let's explore why someone like Ultron isn't apart of it. Bring in the TVA who would've been on Moria's ass(they went after Reed one time. He responded by breaking time HARDER). Show Immortus having a laugh at all these idiots screwing time up.

>>151183082
Days of Future Past and its consequences has been a disaster for the X-Men brand.

>>151189671
You want to know the absolute best part? This shit was going on at the exact same time that the Venom books were enacting their own time bullshit arc via the Future King in Black scenarios. Which not only had the X-men directly impact Eddie's future, his own story involved Kang and Dr Doom having to coach him on how to control all of his time and dimension leaps to keep him from unraveling his own timeline even harder than he already did.

Those two were more interested in solving Eddie Brock's stupid time bullshit than any of the X-men's.

Why are comics still talking about how "mutants will replace humans" when it has been shown multiple times that two mutants can have a human kid?

Moira being a mutant was a terrible mistake. They're telling us that the mutants can only relate to other mutants and only mutants can be part of their group. Compare that with how many non mutants were part of the x-books before 2010s. Now they have no more friends, partners, or parents. They've cut all links with humanity.

>>151189783
I'd love they could explore an scenario in which Jean and Cyclops finally have a child born powerless and quite ordinary and nobody's resentful about this, neither the parents or the kid.

>>151187975
>Considering Krakoa was producing miracle drugs that extended the human lifespan
Did this ever actually impact the world outside of X books? Like Peter needing the drug for aunt May or something?
From what I recall, most books just carried on business as usual, until a mutant showed up and the reader had to be reminded that they're living on an island now.

>>151183857
>>151183667
>>151183806
Should be pointed out, the original plan went as far as Mystique demanding Destiny was resurrected, which was against Moira's instructions.
The original plan (as pieced together from various Hickman interviews and stuff like that) had them refusing, and Mystique causing the downfall of Krakoa, with later parts of the story moving onto space, involving the Intergalactic Empire of Wakanda being led by Storm and T'Challa's son (a plot point that was seeded but also written out by changing some dialogue and art in one issue shortly before publication), and the Children of the Vault being way more important, possibly the final bosses of the saga.

The way it actually went, because when Hickman said "it's time to move onto the next phase of the story", the other writers were having too much fun in the sandbox and refused to get out of it, was that Destiny got resurrected, Moira got depowered and later killed and turned into a robot, and things went like the other anons said. The Eternals went to war with the Mutants, the COTV were a distraction at best and were dealt with by Cable and Bishop, ORCHIS were the main baddies in the mundane level, and Sinister's ENIGMA was the big baddie on the metaphysical level.

I don't know if the original plans would have been better, Hickman does tend to shit the bed at the end, but it would have been more cohesive. Still, I enjoyed the Gillen-Ewing-Spurrier side of things; the rest of the books sucked.

The whole thing about it being rushed but also dragging was because Gillen and Ewing had to cover SO MUCH ground by the end (Percy too, but most of the things he had to cover were pretty irrelevant), while Duggan had nearly nothing to do and his books were just faffing around with Iron Man and Doom and shit.

>>151189832
>Now they have no more friends, partners, or parents. They've cut all links with humanity.
It's a bigger problem with Marvel in general, where the humanizing supporting cast gets tossed for a star-studded super cast. It's just so much worse for mutants because of the reasons you outlined.

>>151189783
Think it was cribbed/mis-remembered from Earth-X, where the Inhumans did a major oopsie and inhuman gas'd the entire planet, turning everyone save a few unlucky bastards into some form of mutate, thus making mutants the prevailing race but without the X-men to celebrate it.

>>151189835
Not really. The only thing I can recall it really doing was making Mary Jane's aunt go crazy after Orchis spiked the last batch. After that, nada. Frankly, most of the Marvel books wisely referenced as little of the X-men books' ongoing shit as possible outside of their fights with Orchis.

>>151187222
Nah fuck you, Apocalypse literally got turned into a cucked quiet bitch during Krakoa whilst Sinister got turned into the ultimate bad guy. It isn't an exaggeration when that is what literally happened in the run. Apocalypse got made irrelevant in a story about an all mutant nation.

>>151189871
> lesbians cause the downfall of utopia.
Based.

>>151189832
I think they should be a little bit resentful, but that's okay because that's what a good supporting cast does: it brings drama but also enchances the story/characters.

My problem is the quirky cuteness comedy stuff in parts of X-Men books completely downplays any and all actual threat, tension or drama.

So we can all agree the X-Men started decaying the moment they accepted Magneto and his methods?

>>151190030
What kind of tension or drama can you build when you have a character that shits ice cream in your group?

>>151190024
At first, sure. But even when mutation ain't the only way to get powers, I'd like the kid to say she or he is fine with not having any and simply develop their own talent and still be helpful.

>>151190120
Yep. All because writers can't tell the difference between a temporary ally and embracing the whole views of the ally permanently. X2 did it well, actually. Magneto asked them for help and the X-Men agreed because they were also in danger, and then he took the chance to kill them all because that's the kind of person he is. Removing the kind of person he is, as well as many other villains, is what has really ruined the X-Men. Current readers don't mind because that's how they see the world: every member of a group is part of a collective, as in, all blacks or gays should be allies to their own.

>>151190318
Oh I agree with that.

I remember people constantly saying mutant babies were being pumped out via orgies at Krakoa and left to just fend for themselves.

What was that about, and what happened to them after Krakoa fell?

>>151189716
I would love to see if Enigma was bragging about how he's conquered time to all the bad future rulers(AoU Ultron, Mastero, TOBA, A Kang, King in Black, King Loki, Apocalypse, etc.) and they all seemed taken aback.....then kinda brush him off. Because how could he truly win if they all still exist? And that starts fucking with Essex.

>>151190396
Weren't they raised in the white hot room or something like that.

>>151190186
Lactose intolerance.

>>151186335
But Uatu hilmself told us that Beast Is a piece of shit, anon

>>151189934
Why was Sinister so powerwanked durong the Krakoa era? Motherfucker got a power up that put him in the same level of TOBA

>>151180603 (OP)
I hate everything the XMEN have become

I haven't been paying any attention to X-men since Nimrod attacked Krakow and everybody had to leave while Professor X did the Joker dance.

Where are the X-men now?

>>151189461
sauce?

>>151190575
This just reminds me that there was this British superhero show called Misfits about youth offenders who get superpowers and one of the deadliest villains was a guy who could control milk. Drank a cup of tea? Eaten a pizza? He's gonna fuck you up. And he gets beaten because someone is lactose intolerant.

>>151190186
You're literally just repeating my point back to me. Yea, that's part of the problem.

>>151187970
Ultimately the problem with trying to do Southern Gothic X-Men stories is that you have to turn inwards. Southern Gothic isn't an atmosphere or setting, it's an examination. It's the termites behind the plaster, the tarnish on the silver, it's a fancy plantation ball where everyone's clothes are a little threadbare, the plates half empty, and the drinks watered down while everyone has a strained smile. We were never going to get Southern Gothic X-Men because there is barely any introspection by the X-Office. Southern Gothic X-Men would be a criticism of Krakoa, its excesses, and its pretentions. Southern Gothic X-Men would be a mutant kids who can't reintegrate into normal life because they went years without education, oversight, or social boundaries. It'd be a family coming to grips with sending a mutant child away for their own safety only for that child to return years later nigh sociopathic and viewing them as lesser beings below animals. It's be mutants sitting around huffing their own farts about their noble and honorable lost cause. It'd be a band of mutants squatting in the rundown remains of a Krakoan embassy screeching about how they're superbeings who are the next step in evolution even though none of them have mutations that would count as a superpower. Southern Gothic X-Men would have too much "Krakoa bad" for the writers or readers to ever accept it.

Southern Gothic isn't necessarily horror and homosexuality isn't unheard of in the genre. The problem is that it's less "I and your entire social network support and validate your homosexuality" and more "Buford down at the grist mill will let you suck his cock, but if you get found out he's gonna be the first in line to beat you to death you so you don't tell anyone."

>>151190599
Gillen turned Sinister camp like a decade a go. Then camp Sinister was just a big part of Hickman throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the mix for potential future storylines. But yeah, the story is ultimately about Sinister clones covering all bases so Sinister could win.

>>151190599
because Marvel needed an actual big bad for Krakoa after Hickman left and they didn't know how to make Cypher the twist villain like he planned to so they just threw in Sinister and made Moira an evil cyborg and called it a day

>>151190640
They basically scattered themselves everywhere. Some are in New York, some are in Alaska, some are in the Louisiana, it's kind of a mess.

>>151190754
I mean the problem here is just the fundamental fact that every new creative team now is just a reset and on some level I can't blame them because how would anyone write a follow up to anything else? You'd have to read so much bullshit and you'd end up wasting so much time doing it.

>>151190814
>Cypher the twist villain
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>151188008
>>151187983
And yet Shogo didn't grow even one year throughout all this.

>>151180603 (OP)
Fuck off back to r/xmen you literal faggot.

>>151188008
>stupid galas
What the fuck was up with the Hellfire Galas? It felt like someone in the X-office was horny for drawing dresses. I can really see someone at one of the X-retreats they did, doing some kind of brain storm exercise and thinking they're hot shit for coming up with red carpet X-Men dress event.

>>151183136
>The idea of the original new mutants mentoring some even newer new mutants is fine.
They did this 20 years ago and it was good but got rid of it because they thought they'd sell more by making it an action book and that lasted for about 6 months before sales ere back to where the book had been before.

>>151190846
>hedoesntknow.jpg

>Krakoa is just Utopia which is just Genosha.
>Moira alternate lives is just Age of Apocalypse which is Days of Future Past.
>Orchis is just whichever anti mutant group toy want to pick from whenever.

>>151190889
They basically wish they were the types of celebrities to get invited to big shindigs like the Met Gala, but know that as comic book artists they're too pathetic and plebian to ever get there.

>>151190926
Yeah I don't, why not expand on the point and explain then?

>>151190926
The Doug stuff was always speculation, Notting more, nothing definitive.

Honestly, if Krakoa had not been X-Men led and had X-Men questioning it, then the whole era may have worked.
>Divide X-Men characters between pro and anti Krakoa.
Instant drama, tension. There I fixed it.

>>151188503
>>151188594
That's easy. Moira isn't branching timelines, she's looping them. She can't actually change the future because everything is linear.

>>151189835
>>151189893
The drugs themselves were constantly being changed regarding what they did and how they worked.

>>151190186
>>151190741
>there is a giant robot to your left
>to your right is a bunch of guys that want to harvest your organs
>in front of you is a gang of cyborgs
>all you can do is shit ice cream
The tension comes from getting the short end of the stick when it comes to the mutant lottery but still being thrown in headfirst to the highpowered, cosmic superheroics of the X-Men.

>>151190889
>>151190944
They kept using a gay multi armed mutant fashion designer called Jumbo Carnation, who appeared multiple times in Hickman like full text pages, to talk about fashion and who was going to the event.

>>151190988
>The tension comes from
That requires good writing that doesn't rely overly on making everything, including the bad guys, jokes.

>>151190988
>Moira isn't branching timelines, she's looping them
Except that's incorrect because not only does the evil Omega Sentinel come from one of those timeslines as well as Enigma's plan rely on those being alternate timelines, the X-men eventually do travel to those alternate timelines directly in the end game

>>151191008
They should have fired Jumbo Carnation then because his designs were the most laughable shit ever

>>151191034
Doesn't Rasputin IV also come from one of those alternative timelines?

>>151191008
>>151191034
Muties can't afford Janet van Dyne

>>151191064
Tangentially. She's a refugee from the Sins of Sinister bad end timeline iirc, which is another point against the Moira timeline power bullshit since Sinister abusing Moira's clones' power is how that timeline ever came into existence to begin with

>>151191034
New timelines are branching off the loops constantly as per usual Marvel time travel rules. It's functionally no different than Bishop and Cable coming from two different alternate futures.

Can't fire Jumbo Carnation he's the only mutant fashion designer.

>>151191034
>They should have fired Jumbo Carnation then because his designs were the most laughable shit ever
Some of those hot ass mutant bitches looked good though.
>You'll never have a mutant power of semen manipulation and participate in post Hellfire Gala orgies, firing your cum in all those Krakoa bitches.

>>151190984
100%

>>151191113
>It's functionally no different than Bishop and Cable coming from two different alternate futures.
The narrative kept claiming up and down it wasn't, though, despite all evidence to the contrary, which is why it's such a mess to begin with. It's like how Dragon Ball Super tried to change up the rules to time travel for the sake of drama over consistency, and now understandably nobody wants anything to do with that shit.

The resurrection protocol was making clones and it's weird no one really pointed this out in universe.

>>151190754
That sounds so much more interesting, though. There's room for a cynicism that's deeper and more relatable than what characters default to.
Give me mutants who felt hopeful and are now back in reality. Give me mutants who cling to the Lost Cause of Krakoa. Show me people who hole up in a decaying corpse and curse everything outside of it, because it wasn't supposed to be like this. Show me people who are confronted with the fact that they are mortal again, that they're slowly dying just like everybody else, and they won't come back afterwards.
There's so much you could do with that, dammit.

>>151190599
Because he got more proactive storylines. He did more than Apocalypse.

>>151191195
They tried to insinuate Death was dying from this shit and the Green Door. Which is the closest anyone ever bothered to point it out. And even then, everyone agreed it was a super weaksauce way to point out that the X-men aren't mastering or cheating death so much as just abusing cloning tech.

>>151191349
>They tried to insinuate Death was dying from this shit and the Green Door
When did this happen?

Morrison took X-Men in a new direction in the 00s which the focus on mutant culture, and successive waves since have just been doing a similar thing.

>>151191367
In Jane Foster's book. It was one of the few times any of the X-men's stuff had repercussions due to their "mastery over death" making her almost turn 616 into another Cancerverse, and everyone called it out as stupid since the X-men were basically just making clones of themselves ad nauseam instead of anything that reality tearing.

>>151191464
They've all fucking failed though since nobody can agree on what mutant culture is supposed to look like beyond acting like assholes to normies.

>>151191543
Just to point out, that's not Death, that's Death's Death. I know, it's as retarded as it sounds.

>>151191584
Comics

>>151191584
Death's Death is an aspect of Death, who is themself an aspect of the Phoenix Force.

>>151190984
In the beginning it felt that might have been a thing because Logan was outright saying that Krakoa might be a bad idea, especially inviting all mutants, including the bad guys. Cyclops came off as hesitant at moments as well.

>>151191543
It wasn't a bad idea but the whole resurrection thing was more like a cloning process. In a way, I can see that as a mean to explain why mutants behave the way they behave.

>>151183806
also Sinister stole the show every time he was on screen

>>151191628
Good Lord in what thing isn't the Phoenix Force involved? That bitch even slept with Odin.

>>151191629
This is my issue, why not play to those themes? Even when characters did question it, it was not a plot point or heck, even a subplot point, it was always just momentary, ignored in the next panel. These comics juggle so much but develop so little. And that's why they feel hollow.

>>151191628
>>151191647
God this shit gets retarded. Adding another layer of paint on top of too many layers already.

>>151191636
I know so many people guessing that they were plant clones and that the "real" X-men were still hiding there. Shame they never used that as an excuse.

>>151191652
They didn't care enough. Which is funny as shit because in Wolverine's own books at the time he would do nothing but slag off on Krakoa and its shady doings every second he gets, but the instant he's in another book he immediately steps in line and simps hard for it.

>>151191647
>Be Odin
>Fuck a fire bird
>Also fuck a swamp monstress
Odin might be Zeus in disguise

>>151190722
House Of XXX – Dinner At The Darkholmes

>>151190640
>>151190833

Also, somehow, there is a bunch of mutants that barelly know that Krakoa existed.
A bunch of mutants that blame humans for thefall of Krakoa
A USA governament agency that arrest mutants...or kill...or...something Weapon X...

it was really a mess.... but now we are 10 years in the future.

>>151181626
Wildcat became a hero because a fucking green lantern book, who cares about that

>>151191647
>Good Lord in what thing isn't the Phoenix Force involved
Oblivion, Beyonders, the Queen of Nevers, the Griever at the End of All Things, Abraxas, and First Fallen. And I think that's it?

>>151191113
No, because moira's powers there wouldnt be any future.

>>151187243
>the death of the supporting character is proof of the death of the narrative
This is a big point of contention I've had for a very long time. It feels like in a lot of cases the super hero doesn't exist outside of the super hero costume. Like their world is pretty much all cape all the time. And this isn't just a matter of secret identities but that's also something worth looking into but it just doesn't feel like there's a world anymore.

>>151187243
>the death of the supporting character is proof of the death of the narrative
This problem has existed for some time. Creators have pet favourites and unless supporting cast are carried on, they often become playthings to be abused or killed off.

I remember JMS creating a whole cast of characters of a small town in his Thor run only for another creator to just destroy that town.

>>151189716
Hell in Ewing's book Meridius's plan was to basically become a Dominion himself. Eddie was halfway there at the start

>>151189835
>Like Peter needing the drug for aunt May or something?
Funny you should bring him because up MJ's aunt was on the Krakoa drugs and got sent to Ravencroft after she took the Orchis tainted ones and went insane.

>>151190120
No, House of M was when the X-men started decaying. That event did unrecoverable damage to the brand

>>151192000
I blame Grant Morrison personally.

What has Marvel done with the bullshit retcon of the Five totally-not-cloning resurrection causing cellular degeneration?
I haven't read this shit in like a year.

>>151183219
I honestly can't think of any modern superhero comic that treats villains as actually threatening and not someone for the hero to punch out in two or three pages to break up the standing around and talking and personal drama which is the actual core of most superhero comics. The only villain who's actually treated with any level of respect in the last few years is fucking Tombstone of all characters.

>>151192014
I blame Chris Claremont and Len Wein

>>151190754
She kinda hits some of those marks with the horse girl and her backstory but you can tell horse girl is one of Simone's least favorite

>>151190889
>What the fuck was up with the Hellfire Galas?
Like everything else with Krakoa, gay shit for literal homosexuals so faggots on r/xmen and xitter and bluesky could post random panels and cropped images from spreads to squee about how much of a saucy bad bitch each girl looks as they are completely SLAYING.

>>151190579
uatu was literally a bendis self insert. uatu was intefering by gaslighting beast in his own room, he's a hypocrite for interfering in the past, and Beast literally asked for Uatu's help in the Endangered Species story. for Uatu to deny helping beast then shit on him later is the height of hypocrisy

>>151192042
We know Byrne

>>151190889
>What the fuck was up with the Hellfire Galas?
See >>151188106
The entire Marvel staff are star fuckers of the highest order244rp

>>151189542
>commies
you'd be very wrong there. the writers are liberal. ethnostates are right wing nazi shit. liberals are always doing fascism or one step away from fascism

>>151192120
God it's depressing how petty and spiteful the X-office is. I mean the rest of the industry is pretty bad but the X-fags take it to a whole different level.

>>151189490
x-men was always political you fucking retard

>>151192175
you're right. it's absolutely insane. bendis is fucking cancer. the why he writes is like a gilmore girls episode or 2010s rachel maddow

>>151191797
Oh, and the Children of the Anti-All. The Phoenix Force has jack shit to do with them.

>>151192196
*the wAy*

>>151191034
>his designs were the most laughable shit ever
This is the dogshit Jumbo gave Spiderman, fucking look at this shit, Miles may have the first truly bad Spidersuit but goddamn was Peter not far behind

>>151192222
>>151191034
Meanwhile here is an outfit that only appears on a single cover for one of the most hated Spiderman stories but goddamn is that fit crisp

>>151192127
They killed the first member of the X-Men. That's when X-comics started to go to shit. Phoenix was a few issues later.

>>151192014
New X-men was damaging but even then with the X-men being smug elitist pricks they still wanted to do the right thing and in a meta sense you could feel the raw contempt Grant had for Magneto and his ilk he not only never hid it but explicitly smashed the reader over the head with how much of a fucking faggot he though Magneto was

>>151192183
>Unsolicited opinions on Azrael
The mini he got a few years ago was fucking rad, go read it
https://batcave.biz/5408-sword-of-azrael-2022.html#chapters

Comics feel like they're written and drawn by children.

>>151192286
>you could feel the raw contempt Grant had for Magneto and his ilk he not only never hid it but explicitly smashed the reader over the head with how much of a fucking faggot he though Magneto was
I wish more writers had that kind of conempt for him. Alan Moore went so far as to have a dream sequence where Hitler himself congratulates Magneto on "clearing out the genetic deadwood". I feel like Byrne's upcoming Elsewhen is also going to put Magneto in his place again, Marvel really needs to stop taking the "Magneto was right" shit seriously.

>>151192347
Man, kids don't write anywhere near this melodramatic or convoluted

The best way to undersand Krakoa is that it was made for actual unironic homos addicted to socia media and they've spent the last year and change throwing a tantrum because their faggy YAAS QUEEN playground was taken away from them. They don't care about the stories, they don't care about the characters or how they're written, they only care about who's fucking who, who's gay, who has the best drag queenesque catty remarks and who rocks the coolest outfit. It's been taken over by people addicted to RuPaul's Drag Race.

>>151192402
have you read some of the shit this place writes?

>>151192387
I was hoping Ewing was cooking when he sent that bastard to hell, boy was I wrong but it's not the first time Ewing teased me with a reckoning for Magneto then rug pulled my ass but at least I got pic related and a full page spread of Nova mollywhoping him

>>151192465
Manchildren aren't kids.

>>151189835
Like others have said Aunt Anna got Alzheimer's off screen then got cured by the drugs off screen just so they could insert Spider-Man and MJ into a gala and rub the whole Paul shit into everyone's faces.

>>151192478
Morrison's "mad, old terrorist twat" take was explicitly because he'd never read any X-Men past the Phoenix Saga and so was only ever really familiar with Silver Age Magneto. I believe he's said that that he regrets treating the character that way in retrospect because he didn't have any familiarity at all with '80s Magneto. Also, the entire metanarrative of Morrison's run (since all of his comics have an overarching metanarrative) is about breaking the X-Men out of the cycle of samey stories he felt that they'd become stuck in to move them into the 21st century. It's why so much of the run is spent revisiting old story beats and concepts like a cover band, then twisting and shattering them which leads into Here Comes Tomorrow where the literal source of anti-mutant prejudice is defeated (preventing a Days of Future Past-like bad future redux), Jean and the Phoenix are gone and Cyclops is left to run things with Emma. The metanarrative cycle has been broken and it's time for the X-Men to move in a new direction that better fits a more contemporary setting because it's not the 1960s or 1970s anymore.

You can argue whether or not how Morrison did it was good but that was the entire point of his run right down to his insistence on renaming the book to New X-Men. It's not subtle at all. I would argue that ultimately, his status quo worked better than Krakoa because it was, largely, a more logical (if exaggerated) modernization of minorities and their relation with broader culture. Even the whole "mutants will, at some indeterminate pointin the future, begin outbreeding and displacing flatscans" is arguably still relevant given all the Great Replacement shit that's proliferated.

>>151191543
Did any of the X-books acknowledge that thing from PAD's Scarlet Spider with constant resurrections fucking up your soul?

>>151192387
I want to believe that he remembers that fourth panel from time to time and kicks himself for not having a better response than that. He doesn't move on in any other way, but this one embarrassing moment from a Cerebro-induced dream thing comes back to mind when he's getting a snack or something.

>>151192770
(cont.)

The status quo also allowed for a wider variety in the style and genre of stories that could be told with the X-Men and books that could be created. Was ever book good? No, but the overall set up at least made it so that was interesting. You can argue that it's probably a more optimistic status quo too, possibly te most optimistic one the X-Men have ever had. There's still hate, fear and prejudice but mutants are becoming more integrated into the day-to-day life of non-mutants. They're developing a culture that interacts and intersects with the mainstream. They have celebrities, artists, lawyers who specialize in mutie law and such. There's still work to be done but things are getting better and possibly will continue getting better (because Sublime, the source of anti-mutant hate, has been defeated). In a way it's a very Y2K positivist outlook.

Anyway that turned into a rambling digression. For Magneto specifically, he can never really go back to being a villain because of what was done with him in the '80s. They tried a few times throughout the '90s and it never took because the fans aren't going to accept it. Honestly the best direction for him was from Cullen Bunn of all people where he was basically mutant Punisher in his solo. I think that's the best way of not going full-blown villain but still allowing him to retain some edge and menace. An anti-hero whose goals are the protection of his kind, who's no longer a genocidal madman, but whose methods make the more conventional good guy X-Men wary and distrustful of him.

>>151192770
I hate Emma. I don't think she's the reason the X-men went to shit but it sure is a coincidence the X-men went to shit when she was made head X-bitch

>>151192858
Oh, and samefagging again, but someone mentioned that Krakoa was cribbing from Morrison's status quo and that's why it failed. It was just a half-assed revival of it in an incredibly stupid way because it ignored the entire integrationist aspect that was central to the concept in favor of a deeply retarded separatist one. Also because the entire set up was just a poorly thought out backdrop intended to be destroyed which, you know, goes completely counter to what the Morrison status quo was about.

>>151190963
from what I hear it wasn't exactly a "mask off, this is the real villain pulling the strings" reveal but rather that he had his own goals in mind which may jeopardize the rules ad well-being of the Krakoan nation. I'd love for Hickman to one day blurt out what the plan was gonna be

>>151192783
Magneto probably has dozens of those little moments
>Wheeling his way to the local market for milk then remembers that time he had Mastermind terrorize a town with Nazi projections
>Beast mentions construction workers and Magneto remembers that time he terrorized the nicest man to justify a genocide
>Wakes up in a cold sweat remembering that time Red Skull called his ass out

>>151192387
I feel like there's a big problem in general with villains. At some point people got the message that villains need to be understandable and on some level perhaps even sympathetic. These are both good things in moderation. The problem is that they went too far. Villains aren't just sympathetic or understandable they're treated like their the good guy and not held accountable. The tragedy of Magneto was that YES he was sympathetic, you could feel bad for what caused his fall. But fall he did. We weren't meant to think he was a wounded gud boi who dindu nuffin. We were meant to see how even a good person can be warped and broken and changed to become the very monster he hated that hurt him and that cycle of hate is what needs to be stopped. Sympathy isn't absolution.

>>151192770
great analysis up until you mentioned the retarded bullshit that is the Great Replacement "theory", it's only spouted by incels and virgin chuddies

>>151192896
I think it's more than that, I reckon the point of Krakoa was to let mutants live out their isolationist paradise island fantasies before reality hits back harder and deeper than before, all to hammer the point home that mutantkind's future is secured via integration and harmony with regular humankind. it's very convenient and likely the correct assumption to make that after a decade of jaded X-Men comics being all about mutant supremacy and bigotry from humans, it's very probable that Krakoa was just an extension of that same soulless outlook on the IP but I like to think that some of the writers, at least just Hickman, didn't mean it that way and that Krakoa was always a "calm before the storm" lesson about hubris and corruption of ideals

>>151193014
That's exactly it. Hickman was meant to have Camelot fall but every retard loved the idea of Mutanland and since Hickman takes forever to do anything nothing happened and he fell out.

>>151192770
>Morrison's "mad, old terrorist twat" take was explicitly because he'd never read any X-Men past the Phoenix Saga and so was only ever really familiar with Silver Age Magneto
The irony is that it wasn't wrong either. Magneto only ever repented for getting the X-men to go against him. He never officially renounced his views on mutant supremacy, never apologized for the countless innocents he got involved, and never apologized for "doing the right thing". Only that he ever got mutant lives destroyed and pushed Charles away from building a better world in his zealotry. That's the main reason why his "mad old terrorist twat" bit was ever as effective, because Marvel went halfway through a proper redemption arc and then fucked it all up just to keep Magneto. As much as it was such a great twist for Claremont to turn Magneto to at least a nominal ally of the X-men, every fucking person after him dropped the ball so damn hard that it would have been better had Magneto just died off.

>>151192778
Nope!

>>151192949
This calls out an issue in nuance and the inability for most people to understand it. They believe that if the status quo is rotten ANYONE who calls it out is right and we should follow them this is how you end up with people insisting Killmonger was right or Red Skull was right in pic related or the other one where he's raging about immigration.

>>151193014
It is just Genosha and Utopia, again.

>>151192068
Horse girl IS Simone.

>>151193044
Out of all of the ass beatings Magneto has ever received I think this one might be the worst. Alan Davis killed it with that middle panel, Magneto looks like he got kicked right in the balls

so is Charles right or Magneto right

>>151192770
>because he didn't have any familiarity at all with '80s Magneto
This is half the issue, I kind of get that writers can't read everything but sometimes I think they should at least attempt to read something because so much stuff just feels like it ignores things.

The mutant allegory never made sense, and that was fine because the book was about superheroics, cosmic shenanigans, demons and shit too. God Loves, Man Kills, simple straight forward stuff. Sometimes I think the adaptations making the focus ALWAYS on allegory somehow infected all X books completely and these big eras always have to have shit like this. Superheroics first, mutant shit secondary, unless you have a solid story of it.

>>151193163
>I kind of get that writers can't read everything but sometimes I think they should at least attempt to read something because so much stuff just feels like it ignores things.
I've said it for years but Marvel needs like a writer's bible/wiki. Some sort of resource all writers and artists have access to that's gives character summaries, histories, relationships and most of all access to certain stories and arcs everything a writer could need

>>151193163
But what is fucking bizarre is that Morrison writes a Batman run with Silver Age pulls and implication of everything being canon.

>>151193370
Sounds like too much work.

>>151193181
>The mutant allegory never made sense, and that was fine because the book was about superheroics, cosmic shenanigans, demons and shit too. God Loves, Man Kills, simple straight forward stuff.
I've been reading through the Claremont run and you're absolutely right. The allegory stuff is the exception rather than the norm, and it was usually just Claremont and Byrne (then Cockrum again, then Paul Smith, JRJR etc) just writing whatever was interesting to him at the time, whether it was a Savage Land adventure, a sci-fi story, a horror story, X-Men was all over the place and doing new types of stories constantly. It was less about a year "message" and more about how this eclectic group of characters was going to react to the, crazy situation they were dropped into that month.

>>151193163
IIRC he was given issues and stories to read to help him get up to speed on the X-Men so he likely had read some stuff with post-Silver Age Mags but probably the only X-Men stuff he'd read was some of the bigger stories so he was still getting an incomplete view of things but enough of one to where he noticed the repeating story patterns.

>>151193385
Morrison is blatantly more of a DC fan than he was a Marvel fan.

>>151193089
The binary extends further than that, I'd say.
The thing is, what Red Skull's saying there isn't just bullshit made up out of nowhere. It does bother people that they live in a cold, materialistic world. It's not wrong to want to be able to live without people shooting up the place or filling the world up with pollution. It's okay to want a wife and kids and neighbors. These are very real, very reasonable desires. But they're being manipulated by a monster, who takes the disenfranchised and fills their empty lives with anger and hatred.
You can write a resonant story about that easily enough. These are emotions people are familiar with. But the writers end up doing the same thing as their villains by insisting it's a binary. You can either be on the good side or the bad side, and none of the bad side's points are valid. Their fears are irrational, their desires are unreasonable, clap for the heroes or fuck off.
It's not just that people can't see nuance. It's that, if they're presented a binary and no hopeful third option, they want to go for the one that at least pretends to be hopeful.

>>151192956
I'm not really trying to be political but it's a thing that's spouted a lot on the modern MAGA right because of the general /pol/ification of the American right over the last decade. The idea of non-whites replacing whites has basically been a fear for the last 100+ years in general but it's made a resurgence the last few years.

My point was basically that the whole "mutants will replace flatscans in the future" thing from his run was done to be allegorical to fears whites have had regarding non-whites. It's not like Morrison wouldn't have been familiar with that from living in Britain and being old enough to begin being cognizant of the world when the Rivers of Blood speech happened. I'm just saying that it was a more modern update on the racism allegory by changing it up from "we hate them because they're different" to "we hate them because they're going to replace us".

>tfw they did Mutant Massacre because they thought there were too many mutants and they were less special
>with Krakoa there is every single fucking X-adjacent character ever

>>151193436
And even when Claremont did allegorical stuff, like the aforementioned God Loves, Man Kills, it was done in a straight forward and communicable way. The lesson is don't judge a book by its cover. The problem is the more you dwell, the more retarded things become, because people ask the same questions. It is fine to rip from real life and make allusions to real life but over time people question it when you make it the be all and end all thing.

X-Men is a superheroic soap opera with themes, the themes are like seasoning, they should overpower everything else but neither should they be non existent.

>>151193511
They then proceeded to just shove every single unimportant mutant into Krakoa 2.0 in the White Hot Room and forget them entirely. So basically back to where they started.

>>151193560
>they should overpower
*shouldn't
Kek my captcha had XMAN in it.

>>151191464
>which the focus on mutant culture
Morrison never fucking touched mutant culture. That was Hine.

>>151192167
You can tell some seething commie made that image.

>>151192770
>>151192858
>breaking the X-Men out of the cycle of samey stories he felt that they'd become stuck in to move them into the 21st century
>admits he wasn't familiar with the past 20 years of character history regarding one of the major characters of the franchise
Just stop sucking Grant's dick and admit his entire run was based on ignorance of the material he was working with and vibes. He was an explicit, unapologetic villain for a decade prior to Morrison taking over and the fanbase didn't mind.

>>151193089
The funny thing is Killmonger doesn't actually have a point from any perspective, he's just bitching about having rich family members when he grew up poor.

>>151193563
Side characters are weird, they vanish pretty quickly, even if a creator did try and develop them, only to be occasionally trotted out at moments, events or eras like this, only to vanish for some more new OCs to make the same attempt.

>>151193582
>Morrison never fucking touched mutant culture.
But he did, he changed the status quo.

can we get some non-mutant, non-super hero humans being friends/allies with Mutants again?

>>151193633
>mutant culture
What culture? People keep saying that but I don’t think anyone has ever explained what it is, what are its values, norms, anything about it

>>151193797
Mutant Town, heck this thread mentioned Jumbo Carnation the mutant fashion designer, the whole thing was that Mutants were integrated into an area. It wasn't just like things like before, Morlocks being in tunnels, hated and feared. It was more an accepted and open identity.

>>151193582
>Morrison never fucking touched mutant culture. That was Hine.
Huh? Hine was literally taking his cues FROM Morrison. Mutant town was made by Morrison but Hine used it as District X.

>>151193797
>Morrison turned mutants into a subculture, a logical extension of what happens when new elements are introduced into society. They were still oppressed, but they actually had some kind of culture to go along with their oppression. He gave them their own Chinatown, their own Little Italy, and made it a point to show that mutants, while not entirely accepted just yet, were more than just mutant paramilitary teams.[7]

>>151193832
>>151193888
That’s not culture, that’s just the superficial trappings of one

>>151193926
Because modern culture isn't just superficial as fuck...

>>151193160
Charles is right. Or at least he used to be. Magneto was a broken monster and Xavier was dreaming of a better tomorrow.

>>151193582
>>151191464
The problem is that mutant shouldn't BE a culture. Mutation is a genetic thing. It's like saying everyone with brown eyes is a culture. The whole idea is that they're just humans. Humans with strange gifts but humans who just want to be accepted. There isn't a shared heritage. There's not a shared history. They had to invent that shit on the spot when they made their stupid cult.

>>151194496
I mean, it is basically the gay culture thing of New York (which I think inspired Morrison's mutant town thing). It is: people get kicked out by their families for being a mutant (gay), go to that area in the big city and make their own slang (slay, fierece, queen) whilst having their own entertainment (drag).

Mutants being an allegory for being gay is really what changed things in detrimental ways.

X-Statix was a better take on exploring culture in the Marvel universe.

>>151194721
Forgot pic

>>151194641
It used to be just as much a generational thing. Trying to appeal to the people who feel outside of the norm is a good hook but it works better with a certain amount of vagueness. You shouldn't over identify any one specific thing or else you end up undermining the whole point. This is why it worked when it was more purely super heroic. The X-men, like the Doom Patrol, were freaks and outsiders but they fought the good fight and that was what made them engaging. Hell it's why the Ever Loving Blue Eyed Thing is so endearing. It's why people like the Hulk. It's humanity and pathos wrapped up in a colorful package.

>>151194641
It's very much a gay culture as seen by tourists not a part of that culture thing. District X, the book that actually showcased the "mutant culture" instead of making an offhand mention of it like NXM, portrayed Mutant Town as a solidly working class/poor neighborhood with only slight differences from the mainstream.

>>151194813
>It used to be just as much a generational thing.
Generation X, X-Men. They were the young team of heroes, originally. They were the students. They were the misunderstood teens.

But now they are like RuPaul Drag Race contestants. It begins to lack a certain universal humanity and understanding, taken over by this consumerist reality tv slang lense.

I wonder if it really is just a case of the counter culture. Through the 60s people were trying to counter things that felt like they mattered more. The past few generations have been so overfed on pop culture and media that they don't even know what's real anymore it seems. Not to suggest things are perfect but a lot of the big battles are over. Nobody has a real cause and they're desperate to force one while ignoring stuff that actually could stand to be fixed. It's gotten to a point were people are honestly suggesting Superman is "PUNK." I like Superman, I thought the movie was fine even, but there is nothing PUNK ROCK about a major studio motion picture.

>>151192411
Women and fags are obsessed with slice of life. That's what they really want to read. Krakoa wasn't precisely that, but that's all they cared about that era. Do they care who Wolverine just stabbed? No, but they can tell what kind of beer he likes.

>>151194992
>I wonder if it really is just a case of the counter culture.
Nowadays you can often get people in power who have everything they want but fetishise the concept of counter culture so much, they still think they are the rebellious counter culture. The truth is, even that 1960s rebellious spirit got very quickly absorbed into consumerist culture and became meaningless. All identity culture has been broken down into data and algorithms until it became meaningless.

>>151190754
That could have been solved by having Gambit going back home to the Guild and ponder whether going to Krakoa was worth of losing his title as king of thieves and be away from his family, all while dealing with some Louisiana magic and voodoo involving mutants who couldn't go to Krakoa and how he feels they abandoned them while they were having parties and galas.
Unfortunately, this would involve also reconsider many of his decisions including perhaps his marriage and Simone would never have her precious Rogue not get the best and most handsome guy and write love scenes for them, which is the only reason she wanted Gambit.
Gambit should have leader his book as the mutant who still walked between two worlds and serve as a connection between mutants and humans, something Cyclops could have done as well with Jo's own family, but we instead have Horse Girl, Manga kid, Brazilian Argentinian, and the other I forgot. Bravo Simone, much Gothic, very horror.

>>151194929
That's actually a better metaphor than you think. Drag, as originally created and as a concept, is an exploration of gender and sexual identities/boundaries through humor and pantomime, it was made to say something about being gay, navigating masculinity and femininity, and the roles we and culture assign to ourselves. Drag as of today is fucking empty. Not even the commercialized shit like Drag Race but smaller and independent performances as well. It's an aesthetic meaning nothing, a simulacrum of a copy of advertisement that barely even reaches the level of lip service to its intellectual and cultural roots. Drag in the 70s was a guy dressing up to put on an exaggeration of his mother's behavior in a musical comedy routine underpinned by the years of self-navigating his feelings being a mincing swishy boy using the only direct experience of femininity he had to an audience of his fellow gays who could very easily wind up beating the shit out of him if he approached them in a different context.

>>151194992
Punk rock has always a foundation of selling revolution and rebellion to kids for cheap.

>>151195152
*His own family, not Jo's own family. I don't know Jo or his or her family.

>>151195173
are you Jo?

>>151195212
No, it's Joever.

>>151195164
People now are being performative and wanting to be told they're brave for something with no danger or risk.

>>151195164
Drag was artistry. now is just a faggot wearing high heels and demonic make-up pretending to have any talent. You didn't even need to be gay to do drag, now drag has become a category for transgender.

>>151195164
>That's actually a better metaphor than you think.
A lot of what you say in your post is literally why I used it as an example, so it isn't a "better metaphor than I think," it is the metaphor I meant. A lot of the forerunner to that drag culture was ballroom culture in New York, marginalised young people making their own houses (House of X, get it, they literally called their drag groups houses). Now it is a big business monolith, vacuous and repeating the same catch phrases, YASS QUEEN SLAY, over and over again.

It went from people with issues looking for escape and acceptance to people with an overabundance of pride stating vacuous and hollow catch phrases with little meaning.

>>151194412
>Charles is right. Or at least he used to be.
Another example of how X-Men has gone to shit. Turning Xavier into a shady bastard to match his Ultimate counterpart is basically the point of no return for the X-Men. Nobody should be taking cues from Ultimate X-Men anyway given how consistently awful and stupid that book was.

Thanks Brubaker, you dumb hack.

>>151195281
Constant never ending secret histories to recontextualise events over and over again.

>>151195281
Fuck Joss Whedon while we're at it.

The X-Men were a mistake

>>151189707
This man speaks the truth, but nobody will listen to him.

>>151189707
Days of Future Past is fine. It is just repeating it over and over again that is bad.

>>151195399
the X-men have been in a constant rut of trying to recapture God Loves, Future Past, Dark Phoenix and Age of Apocalypse.

>>151195152
They also wouldn't do it because it would mean questioning Krakoa as something other than a gay libertine hippie utopia which they're unwilling to do. If anything, the post-Krakoa books can't shut up about what a magical golden age Krakoa was, in spite the social media faggots whining about how From the Ashes's very existence disrespects and shits all over Krakoa.

>>151187835
He still had that awful run where he's pretty much out of character, and i'd say him being now essentially tied to Rogue will be a disservice to his character because he'll always be her set piece and nothing more, just look at how they'll be introduced in Rivals together, nothing good will ever come out of characters being paired like this and in his case they will always prioritize Rogue over him.

I don't think Krakoa is Israel, I think Krakoa is their mutant lefty commune.
>Oh and we will build our own language, culture, art.
The ethnostate shit is no different to identity politics.

>>151195532
I don't necessarily mind Rogue and Gambit being together because girls, from my limited and anecdotal experience, who liked comics/the X-Men fucking LOVED Rogue and her relationship with Gambit. I worked with a latina chick once, absolutely gorgeous Stacey type, and she was a big X-Men fan and it was entirely because of Rogue and Gambit.

Think about it like this: Rogue is pretty, she's powerful, desires love and intimacy but can't have it because "ah can't touch anyone". Gambit is handsome, swashbuckling, roguish, a bit of a bad boy with a sweet heart who loves Rogue. The two of them, together, have to navigate the heartache of wanting each other but having this big giant brick wall that prevents them from truly being together in the way they'd hope which causes tension and drama in their relationship.

Rogue is a fucking shoujo heroine. She even has the complicated relationship with her mother/parent. She was just missing the rival who's also after her man which COULD have been Belladonna if she was ever used more. Rogue and Gambit was basically the closest an American cape comic has come to a real shoujo drama and if Marvel was smart, Rogue's solo from the 2000s would have played that shit to the hilt. Instead they let Rogue control her powers and I think that wound up taking away that tragic heroine dynamic which fueled her popularity. Rogue and Gambit getting married isn't the problem, Rogue no longer having that wall with physical touch is. It killed the entire hook and appeal of their relationship with BOTH genders. Girls could see themselves in Rogue, fighting their own issues to get with the handsome thief. Boys could see themselves in Gambit, the dashing badass with wit and charm getting with the gorgeous and otherwise unobtainable girl.

>>151195241
Sorry, I just reflexively assume people aren't familiar with the history of drag. Though I'd argue against you bringing ball culture into it, there really isn't anything underpinning it and the use of "House" would fit better in the sense of nobility considering Krakoa was basically a select elite trading positions of power.

>>151195152
I feel like you should include Rogue if you're doing Southern Gothic since she's from the Mississippi Delta, but at the same time for all the southern belle shtick they saddle her with she's actually from a weirdo hippy commune rather than actual Southern society.

>>151195713
>Sorry, I just reflexively assume people aren't familiar with the history of drag.
That's fair.
>Though I'd argue against you bringing ball culture into it, there really isn't anything underpinning it and the use of "House" would fit better in the sense of nobility considering Krakoa was basically a select elite trading positions of power.
But then you look at the Hellfire Gala.. and the ball culture fits again, superficially yes, but it is always superficial.

>>151180727
>expatriate x-men #1 at fucking 103
The kamala curse strikes again. Worse part is they are more likely to bury her in limbo than undo the mutant shit.

>>151195754
How did anyone think these costume designs looked good? Jesus

>>151195765
It's not just the Kamala Kurse, Kelly and Lanzing are just shitty writers and it's basically just an AoR version of a book that already failed and died.

>>151180603 (OP)
Krakoa was the best thing to happen to the franchise in decades

>>151195791
Eve Ewing is on that book not Lanzing and Kelly

>>151195713
>>151195754
When you have full text pages of Emma Frost (the White QUEEN) talking about dresses, getting gay mutant fashion designer Jumbo Caranation to get people into fits for the Hellfire Gala, it does all feel a bit gay.

>>151195867
I can't tell if I like Russell Dauterman's art. Jean/Wanda all have a bad case of same face.

>>151195839
Oh, well then still failing because nobody cares about Exceptional.

>>151195878
Forgot pic

>>151195765
>Worse part is they are more likely to bury her in limbo than undo the mutant shit.
If only. They will never stop trying to cram her everywhere.

>>151180603 (OP)
Why?

>>151195789
I'd still fuck those mutie bitches tho

>>151183961
This is because the x-men writers try to do continuity in a setting where cities are continuously destroyed and rebuilt. Also did anyone ever have the human Genoshians seeking revenge on the mutant freaks who stole their homeland?

>>151184180
Poltards should be put in camps

>>151195713
>Though I'd argue against you bringing ball culture into it,
It is all drag.

>>151184469
Poltards think jews are all rapists.

>>151195867
>>151195878
Dauterman's also gay which doesn't help because he draws like a gay man (unsexy women, focus on exquisetly rendering beefcakes, twinks and gayface).

>>151187704
>... being shat on every single second for being a "cop
Nobody likes a narc you fucking uncle hank mccoy house mugga

>>151195947
I don't mind some of his women, but there are aspects I can't quite put my finger on why I dislike them.

>>151195962
>you'll never be on Krakoa and make a harem of Jeans

>>151195962
The look like blow up Dolly, literally soulless.

>>151195962
>Russell put the Hellfire Jean right at the top so he could cut her off without showing her full figure
Sad

>>151195983
Yeah they are a bit, a couple are cute.

>>151195983
>>151195962
yeah the expression is very blank.

>>151186309
Nation building would have been awesome if the characters had been in character. They weren’t. No fucking way Nightcrawler is going to be jazzed for mutant orgies. Krakoa should have been a dramatic political thriller about nation building and how fucking hard it is. Then again, letting the x-men chamge the world and alter things would ruin the “this is our world” lie. I don’t remember Washington DC getting nuked, and that’s the real reason no one showed up for Genosha. Kang was invading again.

>>151195997
well what sort of expression do you have when turning the reader ghey

>>151195997
Wanda and Jean are the worst I think.

>>151195532
I honestly think the main reason Rogue fans hate Channing Gambit was because he proved he can be his own character and he doesn't need Rogue.

>>151195996
well that one's a little better

>>151195654
Problem is, once their issues were solved, they were a boring couple.
Also, the reasons women love this pair is because Remy was constantly chasing Rogue and was available for her, but Rogue was having her own life. I would have wanted him to be back to Bella only for Rogue to realise he could have lost Gambit to other woman and he wasn't entirely available for her. He's got other girls, but nothing as serious as his former wife and first love.

>>151187704
The writers not doing the Sins of Krakoa fallout is the biggest shame of this. “People hate and mistrust us. Not because of what we are , but because of our actions”.

>>151195962
The art is atrocious. It does look like AI.

>>151195983
They look like generic paper dolls, those you could cut paper dresses to play with.
Marvel should release those separately from the main comics to contain hags and fags there while the rest of us read good stories.

>>151196056
Yeah there was moments but on the whole they just weren't that interesting when they got together. Rogue was the ultimate tease and Gambit was the bad boy you could fix. The will they won't they was the draw. You look at Lois and Clark or Pete and MJ and there's more genuine life and warmth to their relationship. Like you couldn't really picture them apart anymore. But with Rogue and Gambit making them a couple really kind of just took away their respective draws.

>>151188023
How often does anyone talk about the time the Punisher was a knockoff Ghost Rider?

>>151189390
The problem is that some minorities are awful .

>>151189832
Marvel has always had a problem with contempt for the common man, and the the X-men are the worst about. Marvel humanity is awful and every government official is evil or will become evil. It’s what happens when you have hacks writing the book.

>>151195962
Why do I want to fuck this jean and why does it remind me of my waifu

>>151196234
>Why do I want to fuck an attractive red head
Real mystery, Bub.

>>151184263
>cuckery implications
Logan and Scott going at it while Jean (and the phoenix) is in the chair

>>151190396
Dumped in an orphanage in a throwaway page about Kurt realizing his friends and their Utopia kinda sucked ass that IIRC was never followed up on.

If Exodus is still around though he probably has them, we had more or less an entire issue about how he basically took charge of taking care of most of the mutant kids who weren't running totally feral and was indoctrinating them into the entire Krakoan cult ideology to the point that just saying "Scarlet Witch" caused them to basically become Gollum having his precious threatened.

If Exodus is dead at the moment though, no idea.

>>151195962
>>151195996
>>151196011
>>151196023
>Just has a likely 3D model he traces over in a separate layer, then just copy/pastes it and draws the outfit and hair for each one
>can't even be bothered to change he pose or faces
This is insultingly lazy.

>>151195754
The Hellfire Gala is pretty explicitly a rip on the Met Gala, which isn't based on ball culture.

>>151191349
>>151191367
>>151191543
The real funny shit is that after this the writers seethed about the cloning thing being pointed out so they patched it with the White Hot Room, tacitly acknowledging that previously it wasn't really resurrection.

Ergo almost every original X-character is probably in some hell realm or something along with at least a couple dozen to hundred+ clones of themselves.

>>151191628
>Aspect of the Phoenix Force
Which retarded fucking retcon was this again?

Fuck though, I fucking hate Marvel Cosmic being what it is, all these fags just endlessly retconning the Celestials, Phoenix Force, and Galactus when they're the smallfry of the abstracts to jerk them off or to have them job and it just ultimately results in abject dogshit.

>>151196430
Anon, maybe you missed the subtext of that conversation. It wasn't direct comparisons, it was more a metaphor about drag culture changing over the years and how that parallels and connects with aspects of X-Men. Especially as X-Men over the years has become more parallel to the gay culture of today, rather than the racial allegories or generation differences of yesteryear. Yes, Hellfire Gala is the Met Gala. But read the previous comments about the cultural identity stuff.

>>151192770
And yet his entire run was just doubling down on regurgitating the same slop endlessly.

>>151192286
>you could feel the raw contempt Grant had for Magneto
You say this but Grant was the absolute fucking king of Magneto dick-sucking.

>>151196513
Did you miss the part where I said he was doing it to get rid of it? Like an exorcism.

>>151192858
Claiming Magneto was made "not a villain" in the 80s though fundamentally misunderstands the climax of Magneto's arc in that era though where the idea was, all revisionism postfacto aside, that yeah Magneto had a tragic motivation and past but he was actively choosing to be irredeemable and wasn't going to stop.

>>151196525
Did you read New X-men, His entire thesis on the character was that he was a out of touch old man who's only contributions were horrific violence being a face on a shirt worn by the biggest fucking shithead neo-Nazis

>>151196555
Trial of Magneto broke people's brains and they are still seething about it today.

>>151183447
Terra Verde disagrees though [ẍ]ionist mutants would hope you forget about that.

>>151196658
?

>>151196546
Reeks of a cope, desu, which is very much Morrison. He's a lot like Alan Moore in that he's just an attention whore who will do and say anything post-facto to stroke his own ego and get metaphorical clicks.

>>151196695
NTA but to explain Krakoa genocided the nation of Terra Verde. Technically it was Beast but like, objectively speaking it was entirely in line with what Krakoa's methods and stated goals were.

>>151196507
I got the subtext, I'm just saying that I think that particular line of reasoning is very thin and just because you can draw a connection doesn't mean one exists, particularly when you can draw a stronger connection to a more well-known cultural entity even if everything is purely superficial.

>>151196735
It's a bit like saying "Russia didn't invade Ukraine, the Russian military invaded Ukraine."

>>151196762
Better yet, The Quiet Council knew about it beforehand and just wrote it off by buying politicians through bribes & blackmail through a notAIPAC. You might was well of had the X-Men licking lox off Bibi's cock on how Likudnik they were acting.

>>151180603 (OP)
I'm gonna be honest the fire dudes standing next to the tree is a disaster waiting to happen

>>151196762
Again, I just think you're taking something out of context, it was a whole conversation up the replies, talking metaphor.

>>151195918
>>151195918
With your mom

>>151196809

Who on the Council knew about Beast's bullshit actually? I feel like Wolverine didn't share until it was too late

>>151196735
When did that happen?

>>151196167
Like muslims or newyorkers

>>151196104
This

>>151196023
>Mutie
>Gipsy
>Crazy
Still would

>>151197397
I don't think she's a mutant anymore

>>151197426
Yeah not a mutant and not Magnetos kid either

>>151195962
>>151195996
>>151196011
>>151196023
This is just copy and paste

>>151197455
Who is her father now? Whizzer?

>>151197479
herself

>>151195867
Why did the X-Men became so vapid?

>>151197534
How?

>>151195587
Tell that to minorities

>>151197564
she's a reality warper duh

>>151197479
Natalya Maximoff and an Unknown Father: The most recent retcon states that Wanda and Pietro are the children of Natalya Maximoff, who was the original Scarlet Witch, and an unknown father. They were experimented on by the High Evolutionary, which gave them their powers.

Wanda still considers Magneto like an adoptive father.

>>151197656
Of course that bitch does

Banshee, did I ever tell you I was banging Moira MacTaggert in college? It turns out she was an evil mutant trying to destroy the X-Men across ten lifetimes, but then her mind got wiped and now I'm fucking off to go live with my space wife, the queen of the Shi'ar. I guess it's okay for you to start dating Moira again now. She was a good friend.

>>151197656
At what point are they going to retcon the original X-Men issues, her considering him a father at all seems kind of ridiculous

>>151197718
He basically found her, adopted her and lied to her. So a retcon of those issues isn't needed.

>>151197656
Funny how Petro still hates him but not her

I can't believe how popular this shit is. TPBs, hardcovers, anthology paperbacks, omnibus editions of main creators series. And now they are doing anthology omnibuses. So you can collect the whole era in omnibus format.
>Age of Krakoa
>Collecting: X-Men (2019) #1-7, X-Force (2019) #1-8, Marauders (2019) #1-8, Excalibur (2019) #1-8, Fallen Angels (2019) #1-6, New Mutants (2019) #1-7, Wolverine (2020) #2-3, Giant Size X-Men: Jean Grey and Emma Frost and material from Wolverine (2020) #1.
Don't look at the price

>>151197716
I think one of the things I hate so much is how you can just SMELL the smug coming off the pages of the people writing this crap as they think their posturing is the coolest shit ever.

>>151195962
>>151195996
>>151196011
>>151196023
This makes me think of those flash dress up games you'd see on newgrounds

>>151197770
Pietro once again proves himself to be the superior Maximoff

>>151193495
oh wait I thought you were speaking in favor of that bullshit, not against it. in that case yeah your argument is even spot on, humans/flatscans fearing that they'll be replaced by the mutants is a very believable paranoia in universe, especially because unlike in real-life the minority in question has powers and are capable of mass destruction sometimes, which only feeds into the fear and hatred. you'll have to forgive me for assuming you believed in that "conspiracy", after all look what site we're on

>>151187627
FWIW I'm disinclined to see much difference between Ellis, Lundqvist, and Mills, personally. There's the US government funding a mutant prison, the US army running X-Factor, and the Office of National Emergency is back dicking with Scott. Maybe especially because O*N*E* and Warden Ellis are both ass deep in Sentinel madness. And especially when their purview is all the same. How the hell are they otherwise stepping on each other's toes with Warden Ellis snatching mutants from Alaska where Lundqvist keeps waving his own one eyed monster in Cyclops' face? Especially a prison that proactively goes out to detain people like Dazzler and operates its own orbital weapon of mass destruction. If O*N*E* isn't fine with that wouldn't Cyclops have rubbed it in Lundqvist's face?

On the other hand the post-Krakoa comics have been a real slapdash mess (not that Krakoa was much better but at least the bulk of their enemies were handily under the Orchis label).

>>151197656
Did they ever explain WHY High Evolutionary decided to disguise his tinkering as being from an X-Gene? Feels like getting them involved in mutant shenanigans would be far more trouble than it's worth.

>>151198692
It's because they were mutants and they bs'd it.

>>151198692
it's obviously a half-assed retcon that's largely pseudo-ignored

>>151198823
>>151198821
I get it was a middle finger at Fox who owned rights to mutants in films at the time (isn't that why Squirrel Girl lost her M Card?) but I suppose I was hoping for a more sensible reason. Like High Evolutionary's convoluted relationship with Magneto somehow being involved in Magnus getting fake mutant kids.

>>151190889
The Gala was an excuse to sell variant covers and let artists draw one off new costumes once the "no one has a set costume anymore" thing went out the window in the wake of Brett Booth drawing Jean and Scott in their Xfactor outfits after Hickman vetoed doing so

>>151195152
The bigger issue is this: a huge chunk of 90s X-Men blame Gambit for killing the franchise in the late 90s and a big chunk of that group only give a shit about Gambit being Rogue's boyfriend.

Simone has fucked up a lot but reducing Gambit to being Rogue's fuck boy is one of the few things she got right

>>151197300
It came out midway through Xforce when the team turned him in but the Quiet Council immediately let him go and it led to even worse shit happening

>>151199114
>The Gala was an excuse to sell variant covers
Everything Marvel does is to sell variant covers as that's where a lot of their sales come from at this point and now DC learned just how well it works with the dozens of variants for Batman #1 being the main driver in sales.

The conditions and attitudes that drove the early '90s sale strategies never really died and no lessons were actually learned from the crash.

it's hilarious watching you supposed mature men cry and shit your pants over the very existence of Hellfire Galas, so much whining over the years on this board because Marvel thought giving superheroes red carpet looks was a cool idea. quite pitiful of you retards, really

>>151199816
Just stay on r/xmen.

so how much of "Hickman was gonna feature Doug & Krakoa island as a late stage major character" is actually true?

>>151180603 (OP)
Just pull a Crisis and restart this shit, it's not worthy anymore

>>151188718
>>151189934
Firstly, if you retards haven't figured this out yet, widespread repeated 'banter' about characters that reaches meme level does often end up influencing how writers approach them, so you morons constantly pretending that Apocalypse is being beaten up by literal children on a daily basis is liable to lead to that actually happening one day if you don't knock it off with the retarded exaggerations.

And yes, Hickman has absolutely ruined Apocalypse on a conceptual level I don't know if anyone will ever be able to fix, but "Apocalypse wasn't the final boss of the Krakoa saga, Sinister was" is some damn weird moving of the goalposts. That's not a an argument for "hur dur Apocalypse am teh biggest jobber of them all", that's just the writers of the Krakoa books being obsessed with Gillen's awful revamp of Sinister, who has also been broken on a conceptual level. Getting a big push in some awful comics isn't a good thing, it's just doubling down on ruining him.

>>151180603 (OP)

This book is highly satanic it teaches childrem to be trannysexualised megawhores

>>151191464
This is what's wrecked X-Men on a level where the very roots are poisoned and nothing good can grow anymore. We went from the the X-Men arguing that they were as human as anyone else to them voluntarily othering themselves and becoming all hostile and uppity towards humans, especially human authority figures and superheroes, and it only kept getting worse.

>>151192000
Decimation was the X-books last opportunity to course correct, a top-down EIC level realization that no, there shouldn't be gorillions of mutant NPCs, and an opportunity to get things back to normal and just do what worked in the 80s and 90s, but instead Marvel went full retard with it, going directly into an extinction storyline, and radicalizing both the X-Men and a lot of the audience in ways that couldn't be recovered from, and making the whole narrative of the books about trying to get back to that early 2000s era.

From the early 2000s X-Men has been lurching between a power fantasy about a minority group in the ascendance, being obnoxiously smug and wiping it's ass across the face of the Marvel Universe, or a persecution fantasy about a group on the brink of extinction, doing whatever it takes to survive, allying with their worst enemies out of racial solidarity, and acting like they're going have to kill anyone who even throws a dirty look at them. It's all awful, and there's probably no way back to normal, and it's because Morrison and everyone who followed him just couldn't see past the metaphor.

>>151192949
Reminder that at the time, virtually everyone missed the point of this issue that Magneto was no better than the Red Skull, and most people just saw "le Holocaust survivor beats up a heckin' Nazi" and cheered. Wizard Magazine even shilled the issue for that reason.

>>151193495
>The idea of non-whites replacing whites has basically been a fear for the last 100+ years in general but it's made a resurgence the last few years.
Let's not pretend that the media aren't constantly telling us that by the end of this century or even sooner, whites will be the minority in a lot of western countries "...and that's a good thing", but actually noticing what we're being told is just a delusional far-right conspiracy theory.

>>151193582
>He was an explicit, unapologetic villain for a decade prior to Morrison taking over and the fanbase didn't mind.
There were diehard Magneto fangirls that spent the 90s seething about him being a villain, but you're right, most of the fanbase didn't mind, and Magneto's last storyline before Morrison had him literally trying to start World War 3. By the time of Morrison's run, 80s Magneto wasn't particularly relevant anymore, that Morrison seemed to be writing a rebuttal to that era years after Magneto had already reverted to being a villain was an odd choice, and taking things as far as he did sadly ended up with Marvel immediately turning Magneto 'good' again afterwards to appease all the fans who lost their minds.

In retrospect things would be better if Lee and Kirby had given Magneto some backstory, and Claremont's mutant Holocaust man was his own OC.

>>151193888
All of this was an awful idea, but Marvel just won't stop.

>>151195878
>>151195888
>>151195947
God, if you can hear me, please stop letting gay artists design looks for Wanda. Please also smite those who brownwash her.

>>151195984
>Russell put the Hellfire Jean right at the top so he could cut her off without showing her full figure
Even worse, he left the Atlantis costume out entirely.

>>151196744
If it hadn't been Jim Lee, it would've been someone else. At the absolute latest it would've happened the moment Claremont finally left X-Men. And frankly 90s Magneto worked better than 80s Magneto. Making him a villain with a tragic past that helps explain his villainy works a lot better than just using his tragic past as a get out of consequences free card and pretending he always had good intentions, and asking readers to please disregard his entire published history prior to the 80s.

>>151197710
It's absolutely retarded, anon, and most people who actually like Wanda hate it. It makes no sense, she has a decades-long history of hating Magneto and everything he stands for, and outright rejecting the idea of him as a father.

What we have now is Disney telling Marvel they aren't allowed to make Wanda and Magneto related, but Marvel being full of people whose entire idea of who Wanda is starts and ends with "Magneto's daughter" so they're trying to obey the letter of Disney's orders but not the spirit of them, doing this stupid 'found family' nonsense when it's completely OOC.

House of M and the Wolverine & X-Men cartoon both created a group of 'Magneto Family' fans and it seems like they're trying to pander to those people and their ridiculous 'mutant royal family' nonsense too.

>>151197742
>He basically found her, adopted her
The twins were at least 16 and he forced them to join his terrorist group. It's hardly an adoption, and with how condensed Marvel time is, they were likely only there for a few months. The idea that either of the twins would see him as a father figure because of that is ridiculous.

>>151198941
Remender got handed that storyline to write, and it basically got cut short because of Secret Wars, then he left Marvel and nobody's revisited it since.

>>151196453
>Which retarded fucking retcon was this again?
The Phoenix Force got retconned as the embodiment of life and death at least by the time of a recent Defenders run. Also the multiverse exists within the White Hot Room. If you want to be more angry, since Eternity is the embodiment of life, that technically makes him an aspect of the Phoenix Force too.

>Galactus
Galactus is down several ranks now. He use to be merged with an embodiment of the remnants of a universal avatar of an Eternity-tier equivalent, but now he's just empowered by an extradimensional being on the level of the creation of an especially powerful god. He's like 2 or 3 tiers lower than he used to be.

>>151200286
>Please also smite those who brownwash her
the tasteless faggot that you are

>>151200529
Retconning race is retarded and so are you.

>>151197742
>So a retcon of those issues isn't needed.
Magneto used to let Mastermind and Toad molest her, a retcon might be needed

>>151200146
>widespread repeated 'banter' about characters that reaches meme level does often end up influencing how writers approach them
>"You're to blame! Not the writers! Because you memed!"
I mean this sincerely anon, you're taking this way too seriously.

>"Apocalypse wasn't the final boss of the Krakoa saga, Sinister was" is some damn weird moving of the goalposts
I'm not saying Apocalypse HAD to be the final boss of Krakoa. I'm saying whilst Apocalypse was badly written we also got Sinister getting made into the final boss of the X-Men with all that multiple AU shit. And it has problems which in your next paragraph.. you agree with.

>Hickman has absolutely ruined Apocalypse
>Gillen's awful revamp of Sinister
Amazing how in your second paragraph you suddenly begin agreeing with me a bunch about Hickman and Gillen.

>I don't know if anyone will ever be able to fix
>who has also been broken on a conceptual level
You just said Apocalypse/Sinister might not ever be fixed, broken on conceptual levels. That sounds.. a bit exaggerated. That's some hypocrisy right there. You've just done what you criticised me of doing. What the actual fuck mental gymnastics was that? You just implied their ruined forever. Crazy. You went further than I did.

>>151199159
Gambit had a successful run in 1999, perhaps his most successful, that features him single. Rogue only shows up in two or three numbers as a glorified cameo. This is also the run when he yells at her and break up with her.
If what you say is correct, then tell me how most of his runs are sold as "Gambit", but all the "Rogue and Gambit" ones are just Rogue numbers on disguise and he's barely there or aren't about him. It's because they know Rogue doesn't sell alone unless she's half naked or she's with Gambit. I mean, Rogue's first solo was about continuing Gambit's 1993 solo and her fighting with Belladona.

Magneto ruined the X-Men from the inside and gays ruined the X-Men from the outside

>>151200357
At this point I wouldn't be mad if another writer retcons Wanda as Bova's daughter who got turned human by the High Evolutionary and then was adopted by the first Scarlet Bitch.

>>151201168
>High Evolutionary keeps using genetic engineering to make new Magneto kids with increasingly complicated and improbable personal histories
>they're not actually related to him at all, they're just designed to trick a paternity test for a couple of years

>>151197544
same reason every other hero comic did
vapid people took over the writing room and inspired generations of vapid people to follow after them

>>151197716
Banshee got done so dirty man

>>151192778
Not exactly, but the Jane Foster: Valkyrie book did show the clone resurrections, the Krakoa resurrections, and the Green Door resurrections as things that were making death irrelevant, to the point that Death itself was dying, and Jane had to convince the Living Tribunal (or some other cosmic being, I don't remember clearly) that death was still necessary.

SEX with Kitty Emma Jean Storm Magik Dani Psylocke Betsy (Rachel gets the electric chair) Polaris Rogue Laura Boom Boom and Dazzler right fucking NOW

>>151192222
It's funny that there was a whole story about Spidey convincing Moon Knight to lend him the Mr Knight suit for the Hellfire Gala, then he wore this instead.

>>151201469
HE has some sort of with beef with Magneto for him to make so many kids who are supposed his?

>>151201579
Sex with Rachel.

Good to know nobody cares about Polaris

>500+ replies seething once again over Krakoa, all while sales are still cratering
Brevoort is getting more and more desperate...

>>151201821
Fuck off

>>151181627
One Palestine was a province of the ottoman Empire not its own people if it's own nationality until the Jews tried to make a state there two there were plenty of Jews in Palestine non-stop since the Romans took over Israel and renamed it Palestine and that includes the Gaza Strip and the West Bank before they were told to leave or killed just for being Jewish some in the Palestinians and what was recognized that Israel never got along with the Jews across the Middle East with all of the so-called allies of the Palestinians included by so-called Palestinian refugees.

>>151199114
>in the wake of Brett Booth drawing Jean and Scott in their Xfactor outfits after Hickman vetoed doing so
huh?

>>151189783
somebody post the kang screencap

>>151201952
1. That has nothing to do with Krakoa.
2. The vast majority of modern nations of the world were not fully formed nation states prior, that does not mean they weren't people with their own languages, cultures and groups, worthy of existent.
3. Prior to the Balfour Declaration and the British Mandate, the amount of Jews in the area was a few percentage of the population, until political Zionism changed that.
4. Did you know that Israel did operations to get other Jews in other Middle East countries to movie to Israel, including bombing their own people in Iraq and blaming anti semites. Look it up.

>>151201821
Huh? If anything the Krakoa era shows Brevoort was right, as Krakoa pissed people off and sold.

>>151202448
Don't care
Fuck Palestine

>>151197544
During Krakoa they'd have huge X-Men writers retreats, they'd get a big white board and write, what were the X-Men, what do you want them to be. And they would brainstorm. Someone would suggest, Met Gala for mutants and someone else would be like, yesss, dresses! Hellfire Gala. It's design by committee and the whins of that committee. What sounds cool to them.

What's funny is they did something for Star Wars, the High Republic multi media project. What is Star Wars, what cool things do you want! "Diversity, dinosaurs, Arthurian legends!"

>>151202448
The exact number of Jews in Israel before British mandate is heavily disputed you can't just go around saying it was like 5 or 4% and the Jewish identity with the region predates even Islam let alone the Arabs being in what it is Israel or Palestine.And I bet number four is a conspiracy theory that if you look it up most people are going to find a conspiracy website deliberately for how you spelled it out not to mention when national law of Arabs Islamic country says you can't live here of your Jewish but with confiscate in all your property but the UN didn't called the refugees because Israel existed and they're supposed to be evil for moving to Israel when they had nowhere else they can go. And there was definitely not a Palestinian identity among the Arab Muslims before Zionism was a thing they were running about they were scared that they would have Jewish bosses ahead of them which is still a real fear Muslims have across the Muslim world not just the Middle East and just look at the size of the country surrounding Israel those are his thoughts go places that had their own identities they would have been fighting over who should get what we were calling Palestine before that if Israel wasn't a thing.

>>151200146
>so you morons constantly pretending that Apocalypse is being beaten up by literal children
Holy projection, literally no one said that you absolute retarded faggot.

>>151188133
Man they really use to give Black Bolt a lot more respect

All you pro-palestinians do is make ithers hate Palestine more
Good job I guess

>>151202515
The most reliable information puts it at a few percent. Just because a people predate someone doesn't mean everyone else doesn't count. Or do you want all Americans to leave America for the Natives?

Number 4, Baghdad bombings, has been thoroughly researched and looked at with even the British authorities suspecting Zionists behind it. Mossad obviously denies it, but there was precedent with other movements at the time.

>And there was definitely not a Palestinian identity among the Arab Muslims before Zionism
There was shared culture. All nation states are essentially artificial constructions, look at Italy, multiple states. When followers of Garibaldi landed in Sicily and said viva d'Italia, some people thought Italia was his wife. The idea that, because they didn't have nationalism they don't count, could apply to most counties.

>when national law of Arabs Islamic country says you can't live here of your Jewish
Jews lived all across the Middle East until Israel and it's treatment of Arabs caused a backlash which Israel exploited to cause mass exodus of Jews from Middle Eastern countries to Israel.

>>151202605
Keep sending billions more to Israel I guess.

>>151202611
You say most reliable many people were counted the most anti-israel or Jewish groups will put it at that percentage. I have seen entire countries and organizations and a lot of profile singing people want every due to leave Israel and go back to wherever they were even if where they were don't allow Jewish citizens and not includes the entire government of Iran no I don't like it but the enemys of Israel wants it far more than Israel has ever tried to do it which would be never by the way. You're saying now that number for the bag that bombings have people suspected suspected isn't proof and it's not like British doesn't have its own political agenda that doesn't align with Israel all the time I have you know they have a large Islamic population bigger than Jewish population And I'm being a president for something according to you does not mean that there was ever something like that and that there was not people who wanted to do violence in those countries just to begin with with the clearly was if you look at a lot of Islamic countries history with Jews before and after Israel was created. Shared culture does not mean an identity that would have ever been Palestine by any mean.1,2

>>151202705
You mean the treatment of your law to not serve in the Army instead of being father and freedom of religion for them note interface marriage is not the standard of freedom of religion for anyone except for people who want to say Israel doesn't have it and they declared war day one Israel was created before they had any chance to treat the Arabs in any way so no it was in the treatment of the Arabs that got the Arab world against Israel it was a Jew could be a boss of a Muslim and they couldn't declared that in we go by Islam. Israel did not create the mass Exodus of Jews when it's found it's you and we go we recognize right to stop the people who wanted to invade and massacred people those people for the era countries will probably be next with them saying we would finish the Holocaust be the cries of invaded Israel. Also Israel had no power to declare we are taking away your citizenship from Jews among the Arab countries along with the fact that they took away all their property and money as they did so.2.2

>>151188006
that's my attack!
you're gay now!

>>151202473
Based

>>151202715
>Shared culture does not mean an identity that would have ever been Palestine
Shared culture is what made up the majority of peoples. You never once addressed my point that most countries in the world are like that.

Heck did you know English proto national identity began in wars against France? Opposition often causes national identity. Prior to that the English monarchs had massive amounts of land in France and dynasty disputes/connections.

France and proto Germany both began as Frankish kingdoms but modern French and German national identity was often in opposition with each other. Opposition = national identity.

>And I'm being a president for something according to you does not mean that there was ever something like that and that
You're being a president? What the fuck.

>Your
What are you on about, what weird implications. This post is doesn't make sense at all, is this some AI chat garbage.

>Israel did not create the mass Exodus of Jews
The mass exodus only happened years after Israel's creation. If things were so bad for Jews in Iraq etc. Why did they live there? All the violence only occured after Israel. You're making little sense.

>>151202877

Okay number one ever heard of the Ottoman Empire that most of the Arab world came from after World War I you're blaming Israel for things got the Cold War and the destruction of the Ottoman Empire created especially when it's countries get barely existed before Israel but existed more after it. 2 the Arabs never treated Jews better than Jews have been treated Arabs in Israel and that was before and after Israel was created.You're blaming the mass accidents abused at what's happened in the we are Muslim we want to pan Arab Muslim identity and Nation which clearly states were not going to have Israel existed when we do it and them kicking out the Jews in that country knowing they could only go to Israel to somehow be Israel's fault when no such force of people having to leave ever because the Arab world told them so called Palestinians to leave at that point so it would be easier for them to invade at Massacre the juice it Israel is not Israel forcing them. When the law outright states you have no citizenship because you're Jewish and with confiscated your Landing property so you have to move to Israel now and the UN doesn't even recognize them as refugees that means 1 Jewish refugees hard to move to Israel like they never had to move to the Arab world among the Palestinians and to the un has been way nicer to Palestinian refugees than they ever were to Jewish refugees.

>>151202933
Stop the chat gpt garbage. You're not addressing anything in saying.

>>151203126
I was trying to use speech to text when the TV was too loud. I managed to find my headset and microphone and go look up the Jewish nagma and not people trying to make light of it more juice will kicked out than the Palestinians and yet somehow those Jews aren't multiple times larger than when they started in less than a hundred years but the Palestinians Refugee population became so.

>>151203126
*I'm saying

>>151203141
>I was trying to use speech to text
Anon, it's a complete fucking mess. Doesn't address anything I say and goes off on things that don't make sense. It feels like AI. Quit rambling.

I haven't made light of anything and you're projecting a lot onto me, using words and phrases previously like "your law". You just have that plain idea of "they weren't a nationality so they don't count as people" and I've said multiple times that there are many examples of this in history, not once have you addressed it. Many national identities formed in opposition. It doesn't mean they don't count as people, as you keep implying.

I've studied about the Ottoman history period and the British Mandate times too. It doesn't justify what happened at all. "They aren't a nationality" over and over again isn't an argument you think it is. They were the majority in the region until waves of political Zionism and periods of migration under the mandate causing intense social pressures and conflicts, pressures which erupted post Israel's creation. You just think they deserve that. I'm not the anti Israel person you think I am, I just think you're ignoring so much of what I'm saying with the same bullshit. You don't understand the history of the nation state or nationalism, they are relatively modern things. Just because there wasn't a nation state of Palestine, doesn't mean that colonising a region is justified. And the colonisation did take place over the Mandate, that's not in dispute.

>>151203141
The British promised the Arabs a nation post WW1 but the Sykes Picot agreement secretly planned to divide up the territory, giving us the mandate.

Jews colonised the mandate during the period as per the Balfour declaration. This caused intense social pressures, the Arab revolt and later the white paper where the British literally said allowing Jewish migration had caused social conflict. The Jews even attacked the British and Jewish terrorists bombed the king David hotel.

WW2 happened, pressure caused the creation of Israel. War happened. Palestinians were forced out and ethnically cleansed. The Jewish movement you're talking about only happened AFTER the ethnics cleansing of Palestinians. And Israel also strategically wanted the movement of Jews out of middle Eastern countries to improve this position, several of these operations are again, fact and not in dispute.

The movement you're talking about is reactionary and happened after. If Palestinians hadn't been treated that way, the Jews wouldn't have been forced out of middle Eastern countries.

>>151203276
I never said Palestinians don't count as people and I never meant to say anything like your law I meant to say stuff like the law but as I mentioned the TV the UN and the Arab world never treated the Jews like people when they were raising war against the existence of Israel for existing for one day and not being in Islamic State. The Palestinian people were treated as people they were even given Palestine when they complain multiple times even after teaming up with Hitler that the Jews are getting State we want more they were actually giving more land than Israel but they decided no no Run for the Jews will take it out every Jew we're not recognizing anyone who was Jewish beforehand to have any identity among Palestinians except victimizers even though we were clearly victimizing them for generations for for Zionism. And there's a difference between National identities being forming opposition and how Palestinians national identity wasn't formed out of being oppressed or in opposition is something but in order to victimize and the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people's existence. I don't think you understand what I mean by they aren't in nationality doesn't mean they aren't allowed to live anywhere it doesn't mean they have to overwhelm Israel with all of this we are inflated numbers that they made only to wage war against Jews not Israel Jews globally. Also the waves were small and they were targeting every Jew they can and even other Palestinians who didn't want to go full murder against the Jewish people they weren't forced to become violent they became violent in the name of no Jew will ever be the boss of me I'm the boss of all of them. You can't call Post Israel's creation when they declared war the day Israel was officially recognized. 1.2

>>151203364
Does a difference between thinking innocent people deserve something and calling out the people who did so deliberately for causing it I was doing the latter. The children did it cause it to happen but they still use the children in.It's not the same thing as colonization the Jews existed there before Zionism and they existed in the Middle East a lot more places than Israel and Palestine before the Arabs who the Palestinians were buddies with and are the actual Origins of Palestinian decided no Jews were getting rid of them all.Including Palestinians chasing out Jews in Arab countries more than any Palestinians that Israel and in far more complete numbers.2.2

>>151203345
You forgot to mention the leader of the Palestinians appointed by the British teamed up with Hitler in the name of aunty semitism where he claims in his autobiography I convinced Hitler to commit the Holocaust and the Palestinians won Force to leave so much as the people they team up with the multiple Arab countries who wanted to genocide the Jews said leave so we can destroy Israel easier and the number of them did most did not but the ones who did been inflating their numbers with people who are not Palestinians by any measurement except for the UN allows it as in allow Palestinians to adopt orphans in the Muslim world but not vice versa.Ethnic cleansing especially over years populations go down not up.
And the fact that Israel gave refugees status and helped Jews who were being forced out of Arab countries does not mean that it was Israel's magically with the power of the magical Jewish massage agents Force the elves to do it they took away their rights as Citizens they took away the property and money and they had nowhere to go but Israel helping refugees is not forcing them to come to your country even if you want to call them evil for taking in the refugees in bigger numbers than the Palestinians who that's for the invasion of that country.

>>151203364
>I never said Palestinians don't count as people
You stated it several times over with your rhetoric.
>never treated the Jews like people
Factually incorrect. Go and read a book about history of Jews in Iraq, there were peaks and troughs in relations but there were communities for centuries. The violence in the 20th century only happened because of Israel. It was reactive.
>The Palestinian people were treated as people they were even given Palestine
Factually incorrect, the British offered Arabs a land then betrayed then with the mandate.
> And there's a difference between National identities being forming opposition and how Palestinians national identity wasn't formed out of being oppressed or in oppositio
It literally was formed in opposition like many of the examples I gave. Guess what, political Zionism as an identity formed in opposition to European anti semitism too! You can't say the Palestine one doesn't count whilst saying the Jewish one does.
>Also the waves were small
The waves weren't small, read about the white paper the British wrote.

>>151203426
>leader of the Palestinians
You mean the grand mufti of Jerusalem, not the leader of all Palestinians and they did next to fuck all. They didn't do anything materially to cause or help the Holocaust.

>Jews who were being forced out of Arab countries does not mean that it was Israel's magically with the power of the magical Jewish massage agents Force the elves to do it
Jesus Christ you don't know about any of these operations at all. Go and read up on them. You're just being ridiculous and factually incorrect with gobbledegook.

Stop the text to speech shit.

>>151203445
They offered Jews the same lines as they offered the Arabs Jews didn't make Britain lie or offer the same one twice to both of them Israel is not magically responsible for Arab racism or the Arabs deciding no Jewish citizens.I can say the Jewish identity of zionisms has more legitimacy cuz Jews were not forcing Palestinians out of the Arab world but the Palestinians were definitely force in the Arabs out of the Jewish World they should return to Gaza or the West Bank but they shouldn't be allowed to come back to Israel in numbers multiple times larger than they ever voluntary leave in. They would be danger even to the Palestinians who stayed as Israeli citizens.