do you REALLY need squats and deads? I've bulged a disc and while I know it's possible to get back to these movements, I'd rather just not take the risk anymore because this injury has been fucking horrible

can I make the same respectable progress with lunges and Bulgarian splits if it's just for aesthetics?

>>76366319 (OP)
Nah man I have absolute monster legs and I quit squatting years ago (granted I was up to a 500lbs squat when I stopped). Currently I do legs twice a week and each day consists of:

Leg Press or Leg Extension 4x8-12
Leg Extension or Leg Press 3x12-15
Leg Curl or GHR 4x8-12
Back Extension or Leg Curl 3x12-15
Standing Calves 4x12-15
Seated Calves 3x15-20
Abs 3xwhatever

I hate split squats and lunges so don't do them but if I did, I'd do the split squats as the main movement and lunges as a finisher.

>>76366319 (OP)
No, you don't have to do them. Yes, you can still make progress without them. Will it be optimal? Maybe, maybe not. Who cares? Gains is gains.

>>76366351
>>76366373
thanks bros. feeling weird about being hesitant about them, but since I got injured Im just struggling with the thought of reinjuring when I finally get over this. id prob kms if I reinjured after this bullshit. I'm also 35 so I feel like the risk is a free fall from here, never dealt with an injury like this.

>>76366397
Yeah I'm 38 with a fucked up facet joints in my lower back. No squats for me. I do well enough without them. Rather have sub-optimal gains than fuck my shit up (even more) and have negative gains.

>>76366319 (OP)
See I had the exact same injury from helping a friend move a piano 5 years ago. I started low and worked my way up and have never had an issue and feel great. My brother had a similarly injury and swore off Squats and lower back as a whole because he "has a bad back" and he does. He's still injured. You can work through it or forever until you die have a bad (insert body part) which will get even worse as you age. There's no 3rd option

>>76366469
yeah I've heard many similar stories about working my way back into it. atm I damn near tweaked myself today just moving an empty bar so I'm just scared to even start. meanwhile BSS and the lunges have been ok for me.

>>76366319 (OP)
Reverse Hyper
Uphill Sprints
Walking Lunges (scale up reps as you go)

All I do after severe back injuries from squats & deadlifts.

>>76366351
Basically me since i bulged a disc. Came to see squats and deadlifts are stupid fucking lifts for anyone just working out for general aesthetics and strength and not for competitions.

>>76366505
>>76366507
how long was y'all's recovery? mine isn't too bad but it's enough to make me miserable. mostly sciatic weakness and tingling, and really poor sleep.

>>76366319 (OP)
>do you REALLY need to put Boogie2988 on your back and squat down then stand up again?
>do you REALLY need to pick 800lbs 12 inches off the ground then set it back down again?
What do you think OP?

>>76366319 (OP)
>do you REALLY need squats and deads?
do you people realize that chad never does those lifts, right?

>>76366533
lol

>>76366560
Isn't the original Chad a football player? They do those lifts.

>>76367704
Football gives you brain damage and/or concussions. Chad does soccer, baseball, or wrestling.

>>76367709
No. I was right.

>>76366519
Mine was just a bulge so bed bound for maybe 4 days, back to upper body probably 10 days then legs likely a couple of months but that was fear directed.

>>76366319 (OP)
Shouldn't you just be stretching and healing until that's recovered?

>>76366397
try checking out bodyweight sissy squats
you can stand on a box to go even deeper, but having something nearby told hold for balance is recommended

>>76369548
stretching is debatable, but core work is recommended, and maybe back extensions. as for actual lifting, I've cut out everything that puts pressure or weight on my lower back. I'm not going to just stop lifting since I don't have excruciating pain

>>76369591
I'll check these out, thanks

>>76366319 (OP)
sustainability trumps everything BY FAR (which is realized once you have enough exp)
heavy squats and dls are probably the least sustainable exercises you could do long term
as an average mortal you're better off doing anything else
sadly a lot of gym enthusiasts learn that too late

>>76366319 (OP)
Notice it's always "squats and deads"
No one gets these back injuries from just squats. It's always fucking deddies and I'm tired of pretending otherwise.

>>76370372
yeah, I'm pretty positive that it was specifically the deads that got me the worst, though I think I fucked myself on squats once as well.
>>76370338
I agree now that I've totally fucked myself up. just not worth it to irrevocably destroy my life over a fucking deadlift

>>76366319 (OP)
>do i need to conventional deadlift and barbell back squat?
no
>do i need to do a hinge and a squat
yes
very important distinction here

>>76366351
Yep. Risk to reward ratio on these lifts are terrible.

If you want balance/coordination or whatever other secondary benefits you are way better off investing time into calisthenics and plyometrics.

>>76366533
>Do you REALLY need to pick two extreme examples?
Most people don't actually need to squat with boogie2988 on there back and probably won't get even get close to 800 lbs. Not saying that isn't valid. It would be nice to deadlift 800 lbs and I think generally, people should try to do good at some type of physical activity.

>>76370338
Is any of the barbell exercises worth it?

>>76370338
>>76370433
>>76370446
>>76370509
None of you will post timestamped body.

>>76370513
OP here, Im mid cut and don't lift too heavy, and didn't even lift heavy when I popped my back on a deadlift, I think 300 or so. I was extremely careful with my form and core bracing, but I ended up having a bad rep at the very end of a set and that's all it took. a year earlier 8 had a similar experience on a deep squat and I think everything was downhill from there.

I thought I initially pulled a muscle, and then a week later I had a similar pop just picking up an empty bar and its been shit ever since. looking back I wish I would have never even started deadlifting or squatting again. I really love the actual lifts and it's going to be hard to give it up, but I don't want to do anything where a single minute instance of bad form wrecks my life for months on end or longer

Squats are what fucked my right lower back, I have no idea if it's a bulging disc or just a nerve/sciatica, I remember squatting and feeling some discomfort on my lower back, it's still some discomfort especially when I'm laying down and it's been 3 weeks now.

I've always done RDLs and never had issues with them, also I have mild scoliosis and the curve on my back on the right side is way bigger than left and that's where I feel the pain, fml I should've just kept doing my cozy RDLs and stopped squatting, I've always avoided it because since the beginning I knew squats wouldn't work for me due to my back issues.

I might just go from 2x legs a week to 1 or just do machines for a while, any kind of leg press I can feel the pressure on my back it sucks.

>>76366319 (OP)
Yes, but you'll have to do 2-3 separate exercises to get the same stimulus you would get from just squats and deads, so while it is possible, it makes programming a bit more of a hassle.

>>76370707
this is essentially what happened to me. also have mild scoliosis I didn't even know I had, I'm assuming that contributed to my imbalance and the overall injury. I don't have pain per day, but some.insane sciatica weakness and and tingling shit.

>>76366319 (OP)
I'm torn... I've seen two threads now about snapping but my heavy days both involve low back loading through diddlys and squat. no issues yet but even mild soreness is gonna freak me out now

>>76366319 (OP)
Yes
I have L1 and L5 herniations
Do your squats and deads you fucking pussy
I clean and jerk 280lb

>>76366319 (OP)
Not NEEDED, just really efficient at what they do.
Can you do front squats and rdls? I guess not with that injury, but that's the more sustainable plan that's almost as effective. You'll have to sub them with multiple exercises each, which is a pain.

>>76370802
I mean, it's scary. you read about dudes who recover from it, then it happens again, they recover, happens again. guys that have to have serious surgery, guys who never recover and it ruins their entire life. I was very safe, had the correct form 99% of the time. I had two bad lifts at the end when I was fatigued, and now my left butt cheek goes numb, I get weakness and tingling down my left leg, and can't sleep at night. mine isn't even a bad case either. something you have to think about

>>76370882
I actually tried rdls again two days ago with about 100lbs on the bar, and I nearly fucked myself up again, I think I did retweak something. I've moved to BSS and lunges and they have worked good so far and feel safe, but I'm also using low weight. I think it's going to be hardest to hit the hammies and glutes more than the quads

>>76370890
Nordic curls or a leg curl machine for the hams, for sure.

>>76366519
I augmented my PT with peptides so my recovery was 9 weeks. Normally it takes months or years.

>>76366533
Yes, when we get monster waifus i shall be the one to bridal carry her.

>>76372469
This
This is why I rep 2 pl8 front squat. Need a booty varbie for the love of God.

I cant squat because of a bad knee. I only do strict deadlift volume sets. I'm not snapping my shit ever hopefully.

>>76373285
that's what I said too.

>do exercise incorrectly
>get hurt
Just pay the fuck attention to your form and it won't hurt you. And for the love of god, train your core enough to brace well enough.

>>76373339
pretty retarded to just assume you'll NEVER have a single rep of poor form.

>>76370802
Mild soreness on lower back isn't something normal, that's your body telling you something isn't right, I ignored it and snapped my shit up, sooner or later if you stop caring about it it's going to fuck you up

>>76373339
Nope this is wrong, the human body hasn't evolved yet to the point you have fucking hundreds of lbs on ur freaking back, even with perfect form that shit is going to get you

OP, what was the process of getting an mri on your spine like?
Did you take the sedative?
I'm scheduled for a set of mris with and without contrast on my spine some time soon.

Belt squats

You don't need squats and deadlifts at all. Tbh, if you play sport you're better off doing plyos rather than deadlifts

>>76374191
I was just reading a study yesterday regarding how it's essentially guaranteed that you'll experience lower back flexion on a deadlift or squat.. it's really of when you get hurt rather than if.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349768129_Getting_out_of_neutral_the_risks_and_rewards_of_lumbar_spine_flexion_during_lifting_exercises

>>76374196
I didn't take a sedative or anything, but I'm not freaked out by confined spaces. they will offer something like that if you need it tho. it took like 20 minutes

>>76374185
exactly where I fucked up too. ignoring mild pain was what ended up getting me fucked up

>>76370543
>Bad form'
Nah there are people deadlifting with their low back flexed and don't get injured .Something else must be responsible for all these deadlift injuries. I would guess: jumping into lifting after a sedentary life, not doing accessory core work, very quick ,SS style, weight progressions.

>>76374535
Correct, thinking you can go from a skinny weakling to strong and jacked in 6 months is stupid. Training is a lifelong endeavor.
I would add onto this not training the flexed and extended back position directly. Try lift a real object like a bag or stone with a neutral spine, it's not possible. The back is designed to flex and extend to mold itself to the task at hand. It's when people only train the neutral spine position (because of fear mongering like this thread) that they get injured when life puts them in a flexed or extended position.

>>76374608
maybe i should start with the pulled up flagstones i have. im so weak that i struggle to lift and move them so walk them. ive got some broken ones i can start with, can just walk around my unsteady garden for an hour carrying it. i need to do something.

>>76366319 (OP)
>deadlifts
Fucks your shit up. Only reason to do them is training for a powersharting competition
>squats
You definitely need to do some kind of squat but there are many variations to choose from depending on which muscles you want to target. Bulgarians are the most based in my opinion
>b...but me need to see big number for my ego!
big number means nothing if your shit's snapped. Stacy doesn't care about it. Stacy cares about how you look

>>76375007
Yeah go for it man. I used to have a bunch of persistent back pain and sciatica issues but since I've taken up odd object lifting, my back has never felt this pain-free since I was a kid. The key to a strong and healthy spine is to lift with your back, unironically.

>>76366319 (OP)
I work as a physio and have had a few patients in similar positions. Coincidentally I had a desk job worker whose MRI was almost identical to OP's picrel; they're fine now.

Yes, lunges and Bulgarians are great. I would do that same except maybe swap Bulgarians for single leg RDLs; they're actually less load on the spine and learning to control the lateral instability of single-leg lifts is a big part of advanced spinal rehab.

>>76374504
>can confirm this is true
Light RDLs (single or double leg) are pretty safe honestly. The real risk of a conventional deadlift is in getting it off the floor, because virtually nobody can maintain a truly extended spine in that position unless they're a manlet.

I once worked with an elite-level strength coach and physio and at that level it's all about risk vs reward. surprise surprise, there were no deadlifts *unless* they were done with trap-bars. Even then, you had to hit >6 reps.

>>76366319 (OP)
A deadlift doesn't have to look like yanking 500 pounds straight up. Turkish getups with moderate weight will have you moving in stages and putting the load on a lot of different bones and muscles not just dumping it all on your back all the time.

so if deadlift and squat are out what do you do for glutes then? just RDLs?

>>76366319 (OP)
>does retarded exercises
>bulges a disc
>guys should i do it again?
sure why not

>>76375323
thanks for posting. what are your thoughts on squats? I have a safety squat bar, but I'm again scared to fuck with it again until at the very least I feel better.

>>76375896
I know it sounds retarded, but there's also a lot of people out there who have ingrained these movements into the core of what body building is supposed to mean.

it's hard to challenge that when you're in it

>>76366319 (OP)
Another glassback incel thread

>>76376249
cocky retard

>>76366351
>get strong through deadlifts and squats
>start doing 10 different exercises instead
>"bro you don't need to squat and deadlift . I am strong and i dont do them"
Every time

>>76376356
sounds like a lot until you're facing lifelong debilitating pain because you wanted to be more efficient

>>76367709
>soccer
>baseball
chad does rugby, track, or wrestling.

>>76376180
No problem, just starting another shift in the clinic so finally got some time.

Squats are better in terms of risk but it does depend a bit on your anatomy. If you're super tall with long femurs, you'll struggle to squat without leaning forward at which point the risk profile is close to but still not as bad as a deadlift.

Also don't fall for the "ass to grass" meme. Many male hips just cannot physically do this due to the shape of our hip sockets. Squat to a depth that you could pause at if you had to.

>safety bar?
Safety bar and trap bar are the ideal for squatting. Safety bar vastly reduces the spinal loads as you don't have to lean forward. However, you need to be confident squatting using a very upright technique - look at how olympic lifters and Tom Platz lift, their chest is up and their knees come forward. This of course means the knee loads are higher though.

Bear in mind that intensity is still the key factor. safety bar or not, you need to be taking it easy. Any weight you choose should a) allow you to pause at any point of the range of motion and b) allow for >8 reps.

A basic rule of rehab is that you'll have to start with low-ish weight and high reps until the strength returns and pain fades. Most of my patients are starting in the 15-20 rep range and don't get down to 8 until they're at about 70% capacity.

>>76378630
thanks again! yeah I definitely see myself moving back towards squatting once I'm a bit better, very low and much less deep that I used to. I did physical therapy today and they had my squat using a rod touching my head, butt and mid back, and always towards the end of my range my butt would wink, which is probably where I fucked myself with the deadlifts.

not sure I'll never go back to deads at this point.