Thread 17793291

>Praised as one of the greatest rulers to ever live
>Every single ancient and medieval author also calls him an evil asshole at the same time
How did he get away with it?

>>17793291 (OP)
He did eventually end the Civil War even if he had to eventually betray half of his own Caesarion faction to do it.

>>17793291 (OP)
Both statements do not invalidate each other.

>>17793291 (OP)
he was an evil asshole who also happened to be -begrudgingly - one of the greatest rulers to ever live
he also knew how to surround himself with and listen to men of quality (*cough* Agrippa *cough*), which helped massively curtail his worse impulses.

>>17793291 (OP)
He's burning in hell for being a pagan.

>>17793291 (OP)
I find it funny how he was always "sick" when it came time to battle. He is so lucky for Caesar and Agrippa

>>17793481
he was not always "sick" when it came time to battle and he was many times "sick" when it was not time to battle
there is even archeological evidence about the many times he almost died because someone left the window open at night
maybe you should not get all of you rinformation from youtube channels

>>17793775
What a weak punk

>>17793291 (OP)
He was a great compromise candidate who outsmarted the drunk centurion and the pampered senators
as a field commander he was comically bad though. Thank Jupiter for Agrippa who saved his ass time and again

>>17793785
neither Cicero nor Antony were incompetent

>>17793804
Cicero was a cunt that destroyed the Republic to "own the chuds" and Anthony was atrocious at realpolitik. he was so bad at it, in fact, that half the ager considered him to be bewitched to the Eastern Whore of Ptolemy.

>>17793291 (OP)
>Every single ancient and medieval author also calls him an evil asshole at the same time

Do they really? I didn't get that impression, although I haven't read Appian that in depth, Augustus' Suetonious biography doesn't present him in that bad a light compared to others. I swear I did remember reading a part where survivors of a battle came up to him for mercy and he just replied "You may die" and another time he put survivors of a battle all to death (might have been the Perusine War).

I myself think his notorious ruthlessness stemmed from the fact that Julius Caesar's famous clemency literally led to him getting stabbed in the back.

>>17793804
I didn't say incompetent
one was an alcoholic, the other a sheltered windbag
They were simply out of their depth when dealing with "the boy"

>>17793812
Wait until he says Brutus and Cassius were heroes

>>17793819
Appian is anti republican and is generally quite mild on both Ocavian and Antony, Suetonius is quite obviously a huge fanboy but he uses antithesis as a literary device
one misunderstanding of Suetonius is assuming that he claims to expound historical facts, he simply shares stories that he has heard

>>17793449
Hell is a pagan concept.

>>17793828
the way Cicero plays right into Octavian's hands while thinking that he was taking advantage of some stupid twink is real poetic justice

Antony should've won. So sad

>>17793430
>(*cough* Agrippa *cough*)
Why did you write like this instead of just saying men of quality like Agrippa?

>>17793852
not according to the New Testament.
>Hades stays Hades, gets called Hell by some plebs but rarely
>Gehenna became Hell
the only similarity pagan Hel has with Christian Hell is the name, the closest equivalent would be Muspelheim if Muspelheim was the place God tossed the garbage that chose to be separate from Him into complete annihilation.

>>17793864
because Agrippa was arguably of even better quality than Augustus in most ways, the real MVP of the establishment of the Principate

>>17793291 (OP)
the people hating on him were themselves haters.

>>17793880
Okay but why the coughing?

>>17793839
Who do you think is the historian most critical of Augustus?

>>17793922
Out of the old school Tacitus although in his preserved works he is somewhat less direct about it and goes for the low hanging fruit. But he is as hateful as it gets.
Out of the modern historicians I haven't really done that much of an in depth research but I often see reference to Syme and I think he is the architect of the modern image of Augustus as some machiavelian smug snake.

>>17793291 (OP)
they do the same thing to Trump

>>17793855
In Cicero's defense, the walls were closing in and he had to make a choice. Obviously couldn't side with Antony. His mistake was underestimating an absolutely ruthless and Machiavellian opponent because of his slight frame and quiet demeanor. Augustus was Michael Corleone

>>17793959
i gotta reread Tacitus again, I know his histories start right at the tail end of Augustus' reign. I have Goldsworthy's book on him that I plan on reading once I finish my other books.

>>17793819
Appian is negative of him, though it doesn't shine through like with Cassius Dio. Appian was a staunch monarchist but he just didn't like Augustus all that much.

>>17793894
He had leftover semen in his mouth.

He was too much of a Chad for them, no wonder they were seething.

>>17793291 (OP)
Unironically victorian romanticism, as more random pseudo-historical bullshit is.

You mentioned ancient and medieval, but it's worth noting that enlightenment writers throughout the modern era often criticized him because of the growing popularity of "rights," "liberty," and "republicanism" which they saw as being rooted in the Roman Republic and Greek States which he helped snuff out for low-iq, servile despotism.

>>17794721
I don't remember Appian being critical. There are a few notable examples of favoring Octavian in particular and being disparaging to the senate:
On the matter of the two dead consuls he completely fails to mention any controversy but rather includes a story about how one of them summonded Octavian at his death bed to give him his blessing and tell him that Caesar personally instructed him to look after him, which to my knowledge does not appear elsewhere.
On the matter of that one guy that got spirited away Appian insists that he was put on a ship to be returned safely home, he must have gotten lost along the way.
On the other hand he makes sure to portray the senate as petty and grovelling. On his return to Rome Octavian is rather condecending to Cicero and offers him to be consuls together. Cicero jumps at the chance but the senate forbid it because of their jealousy. According to Dio Cicero heroically refuses.

>>17793966
>One of the greatest rulers that ever lived
>Trump

>>17796050
Das rite

>>17793449
Augustus made afterlife great again, he tortures God for all the evil he has done and makes jew slaves like you pay for their crimes against humanity. Enjoy.

>>17793861

Some say Egypt won over Rome, given how the latter would copy its totalitarian system.

>>17797718
>its totalitarian system.
you mean... monarchy?