Thread 17793990

>Jesus shows up to a drunk party.
>Oh, and he brings his mom.
>Oh, and he gives drunk people more alcohol.
If you believe this, you are retarded. Yes, you are. It was fruit juice. I will never make any apology for using Welch's for the Lord's supper.

>>17793990 (OP)
It says "wine" in the original Greek though...

>>17794054
It says "wine" in the King James. Guess what? That does not automatically signify an alcoholic beverage.

>>17794064
Yes it does lol, especially in the context of the story.

>>17794070
>lol
Reason enough not to take you seriously.
>context
The context is that people like fruit juice. Are you stupid? (Yes.)

John 2:9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

>>17794072
You're making an argument with ZERO evidence behind it. Show me one other Biblical scholar who doesn't think the wine was alcoholic.

I take it OP has never been invited to a wedding, probably because he has no social life and is an embarrassment to his family.

>>17794073
>The HIV translation
No wonder you defend this laughable doctrine. Take a closer look at your own selection:
>guests have had too much to drink
>had too much
>too much
So the HIV clearly teaches, or at the very least heavily implies, that Jesus is serving up booze to derelicts who have already had TOO MUCH to drink. If that rendition does not motivate you to immediately through your HIV in the trash and get a King James, you might just be a lost cause.
>>17794075
>Show me one other Biblical scholar
Who cares what "scholars" teach? How about you show me an instance of "juice" being used in the bible?

>>17794088
throw*

For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. [34] The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

>>17794088
alright, I will bite.
Here's the KJV:

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

>>17794099
>Jews slandered Jesus, calling him a drunkard
>Therefore, drinking wine is okay
I'm guessing you didn't go to Harvard.

>>17794102
>well drunk
Right, this is the correct rendition. Thanks for proving my point. Ready to admit you're wrong?

[20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. [21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. [23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

[38] But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. [39] No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better

>>17794106
Since you've never been invited to a party, shall I teach you the reason the hosts would normally serve the good booze first, and the cheap booze after the guests have "well drunk"?

>>17793990 (OP)
You need to fucking kill yourself as soon as possible

>>17794107
Sorry, it defies all reason to say that this verse applies to rotten food and drink, like rotten (fermented) wine. If your brother is offended that you are sinning or eating poison, then you should stop because it is the wrong thing to do, not because it offends him. This verse applies only to things that are clean. Alcohol is not.
>>17794119
>If I'm not killing my brain with alcohol at a party, I'm not having a good time
Also, you just brought a railing accusation against the elect.

[3] The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;


>>17794104
Why are you refuting the word of God? This should be self evident. No commentary needed, thanks

>>17794126
Why are you arguing against verses posted with no commentary? Sounds like you don't actually believe the Bible.

>>17794128
Your brain is completely worthless. I don't converse with rats.

>>17794132
Sounds like someone is making things up, not quoting the bible... Why don't you refute the Bible with more of your made up interpretations?
>>17794126
>>17794088

>>17794149
Good bye, lowlife.

>>17794160
I thought the kjv was a divinely inspired tradition? Why do you have to translate so much? Man I wish those divinely inspired translators had wrote down juice so you didn't ha e to change the word of God for us.

Lol

>>17794160
You might prefer reddit where your down vote would actually make a difference

No one has an actual argument that doesn't rely on a mistranslation. I think it's clear that Baptists, once again, are right on this doctrine.

>>17794079
We don't post my biography here

>Have to deal with shit like Cholera
>Drink wine or beers because it's much safer
>2000 years later some sheltered protestant gets offended that anyone in the past drank alcohol

>>17794544
>dealing with cholera
>2,000 years ago
saaaaaarrrrrrrr

>>17794216
You already admitted to hiding posts, sounds like you just don't agree with the bible

I get this is a resident troll, but it's actually a good thing crossroach pea brains are now free to indoctrinate their kids with doctrines like this with zero historical plausibility, zero support from serious history of religion scholars, zero support from religious intellectuals, and zero immemorial tradition factor
Every time a kid realizes his daddy and pastor passed him some absurdity apparently conceived a few generations ago (if that) as sacred truth vouchsafed by God, there's a real chance they ditch Christianity entirely. This effect is so significant some Protestant sects are actually entering feedback loops where everybody who isn't a retard or hapless slave type neurotic leaves by adolescence, leaving the lowest common denominator to farrow an ever dumber congregation into the pews
I'm pretty sure crossroaches will be a different species

>>17794658
Enjoy hell. You fully deserve it.

>>17794658
Don't compare me to the retarded KJV cultist

>>17794685
See >>17794669

>>17794694
Are you a woman? You argue like one.

>Still hasn't refuted anything

>>17793990 (OP)
Pharisee level behavior.
>The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

>>17793990 (OP)
The poster is painfully american

>>17793990 (OP)
Jesus didn't exist.

>>17794832
>pharisee
No, saying that Jesus wasn't a drunk is not Pharasaical behavior. You're completely braindead. I'm so glad I'm not you.
>>17795209
>american
Nope. Your pattern recognition is functionally worthless. You might as well get a lobotomy.
>>17795250
Enjoy Hell.

>>17793990 (OP)
Your right, I don't believe this happened. Nevertheless in the context of the story Jesus is absolutely giving more alcohol to people who have already been drinking, because drinking at dinner and parties was normal and a largely accepted part of the culture at that time and giving drink would have been seen as generous rather than sinful. The idea that Christians should not drink is largely a modern phenomena. Not even the Puritans subscribed to this ridiculous idea.

>>17797004
Sorry, your opinion on this topic is completely worthless. Enjoy Hell.

>>17797018
I can't believe you are still here after being utterly and completely blown out this entire thread. You should delete it and try again.

>>17794216
>KJV cultist thinks the KJV is a mistranslation
LMAO

>>17797018
>Sorry, your opinion on this topic is completely worthless.
What a coincidence! That is how virtually everyone who has responded to this thread feels about your opinion.

This is a retarded hill to die on anyways since ALL fruit juice back then was slightly alcoholic since it was impossible to gather fruit juice without even a little bit of fermentation happening before proper techniques to sterilize equipment, filter alcohol, and refrigeration existed like it does today.

>>17797054
Yes, you really needed to ferment it in goat skins or whatever to preserve it rather than letting it get taken over by some random mold.

>>17797034
>I can't believe you are still here after being utterly and completely blown out this entire thread.
Nothing like this happens. The alcohol has clearly rotted your brain out. Idiot.
>LMAO
Case in point.
>>17797042
1. You can not read minds.
2. The thoughts of retards do not matter. You drunks believe that Jesus and the disciples got loaded at the Last Supper and that he gave more alcohol to people who were already drunk. You are a stupid person. That is not an insult, it is an empirical fact.
>>17797054
>>17797071
>This is a retarded hill to die on anyways since ALL fruit juice back then was slightly alcoholic
Moving the goalposts. We are not talking about drinkins with 0.25% alcohol content. You are a liar.

>>17797034
>I can't believe you are still here after being utterly and completely blown out this entire thread.
Nothing like this happens. The alcohol has clearly rotted your brain out. Idiot.
>LMAO
Case in point.
>>17797042
1. You can not read minds.
2. The thoughts of retards do not matter. You drunks believe that Jesus and the disciples got loaded at the Last Supper and that he gave more alcohol to people who were already drunk. You are a stupid person. That is not an insult, it is an empirical fact.
>>17797054
>>17797071
>This is a retarded hill to die on anyways since ALL fruit juice back then was slightly alcoholic
Moving the goalposts. We are not talking about drinks with 0.25% alcohol content. You are a liar.

>>17797143
>Moving the goalposts. We are not talking about drinks with 0.25% alcohol content. You are a liar.
It's also a retarded hill to die on since drugs are used elsewhere in the Bible as well. Cannabis and Sweet Flag (psychoactive plant found in the Nile River) are mentioned as ingredients in the Holy Anointing Oil in Exodus 30:29. Sorry anon, but drug usage in general was fairly common back then

>>17797143
>Retard hates people laughing at him
As old as time.

>>17793990 (OP)
water to wine was a well known party trick in Egypt in this time
It's not exactly the same as assassin's teapot but same effect. Mechanics would be different

>>17794064
The King James Version was translated in the fucking 1611 why the fuck wouldn’t the guy writing it just say juice you absolute muppet?

>>17797163
>Cannabis and Sweet Flag (psychoactive plant found in the Nile River) are mentioned as ingredients in the Holy Anointing Oil in Exodus 30:29
1. You are lying
>And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.
2. People do not imbibe "Anointing Oil". Your brain is so worthless that I am finished talking with you.
>>17797560
Right?
>>17798020
>why
Because they called it wine.
>fuck
You are trashy.

>>17797143
> You can not read minds.
I don't need to when virtually everyone is mocking you.
>You drunks believe
I don't drink.
>esus and the disciples got loaded at the Last Supper and that he gave more alcohol to people who were already drunk
I was referring to the wedding party, but they were.
>. We are not talking about drinks with 0.25% alcohol content. You are a liar.
The Alcohol content would only be that low if the wine was incredibly fresh. Wine that had been stored for a normal period would have a much higher alcohol content. Perhaps higher than modern day wine, which is why it was customary to mix it with water before drinking.
>>17798256
>1. You are lying
He is not, they have found cannabis in the burnt remains of Judean incense.

>>17793990 (OP)
Bro thinks the partygoers were just guzzling gallons of straight fruit juice at a wedding lmfao

>>17798411
>He is not, they have found cannabis in the burnt remains of Judean incense.
Moving the goalposts. Do you smoke anointing oil? Perhaps that is why you are so retarded. But let's be real: You're simply a liar.
>>17798421
>lmfao
Opinion discarded.

>>17799645
>Moving the goalposts. Do you smoke anointing oil?
NTA but they applied it to your skin and other spiritual items and furnishings but you're missing the point anyways. It's not controversial that the ancient Israelites used Cannabis. This is documented about extensively. Not only was THC still found intact on many ancient altars, but the Jews wrote extensively about the proper ceremonial usage of hemp. The point is that people of biblical times were not strangers to the usage of psychoactive substances, so why the fuck would they draw the line at alcohol? It's very apparent to literally everyone except for you for some reason that they used Wine, not grape juice

>>17799658
More smoke. Where in the King James Bible does it say it is okay to get intoxicated on cannabis? It doesn't. Instead it says:
>Be sober.
1 Peter 5:8. One chance. Give me a quote, chapter, and verse. If you aren't a liar (you are) this should be easy.

>>17799663
Why is Cannabis an ingredient in the Holy Anointing Oil used in 30:26?
If your argument that they didn't use the drug psychoactively because you don't smoke anointing oil then I'm sorry but you're splitting hairs at this point

>>17799666
>quote, chapter, and verse
You failed. You're now a proven liar.

>>17799672
I gave you an exact verse from Exodus
>"Fragrant cane" קְנֵה-בֹשֶׂם, qənē-ḇōsem (Cannabis)
It's right fucking there in the Bible anon

>>17799673
>30:26
Let me repeat: You're a proven liar.

>>17799673
A proven liar.

>>17799673
You're a proven liar.

>>17799676
Forgive me, I gave you the wrong verse number (but if you actually read the Bible yourself you would've caught this)
It's Exodus 30:22-25
Here in the King James Bible, Cannabis is mistranslated as "Calamus" but this doesn't matter anyways since Calamus is also psychoactive as well as being highly toxic so it makes no difference for your non-argument

>>17799676
>>17799678
>>17799679
You lost schizo
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2030%3A22-25&version=KJV

>>17799681
Great. Where in the Bible does it say it's okay to get intoxicated on "Calamus", liar?

>>17799684
Rubbing oil on yourself sounds like an invitation to get high on it honestly

>>17799683
Hi rodent. See >>17799684

>>17799688
I'll ask again: Where does it say it's okay to get intoxicated on cannabis? Since you're a retarded ass, I'll make this more embarrassing for you: How do you explain the fact that you are lying brazenly about what Calamus is?

>>17799695
Anon, look at definition number 5 in your image
>The Sweet Flag
THIS is what your definition is refering to specifically
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorus_calamus
Please take your meds

>>17799681
Don't bother. He doesn't care. He's trolling and a fool. Argue with fools, become one.

>>17799684
see
>>17799681
>25 And thou sha;t make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of apothecary
It literally says it right there that it can be used medicinally, unless you want to seriously split hairs on what an apothecary or ointments are

>>17799699
1. You're a proven liar. Let's not forget this.
2. Acorus calamus is not cannabis.
3. Using something ceremonially is not the same as getting high on it. You know this, you're just trying to confuse the issue. See point #1.
3. The Bible does not condone getting intoxicated on cannabis.
4. The Bible does not condone getting intoxicated on calamus.
5. The Bible does not condone getting intoxicated on alcohol.
6. You're a proven liar.
>>17799700
Feel free to make a real argument. Better yet, just leave and drink until you vomit. That's the "life" you deserve, clearly.

>>17799704
>It literally says it right there that it can be used medicinally,
It literally doesn't. You're now a proven liar.

>>17799706
Well then you're blind and can't read because it says so right there, maybe I should repeat myself
>25 And thou shalt make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of apothecary
But sure bud, lets break your argument down for a second
>The Jews often used cannabis in incense (fact)
>cannabis is often listen as an ingredient in Holy Anointing Oil (fact)
>It is sometimes mistranslated as Calamus, an unrelated drug (fact)
>You are to rub this oil on your head and furnishings in your home (fact)
>The Bible states it can be used medicinally (fact)
But because the Bible doesn't say "Smoke weed everyday" then apparently that means they never used the drug, and thus they never drank wine either even though the Bible does say they drank wine...
Yup, makes perfect sense bud

>>17799705
Not that anon, fool. Just got here

He's going to continue sperging out and throwing around the word "Liar" just watch, calling it now

>>17799713
Notice the difference between our arguments. Let's start with mine:
>The Bible says "Be Sober".
You:
>The King James mistranslated a word
>Calamus is actually cannabis
>They used it in an anointing oil
>That gets you high just like smoking it
>Therefore it's okay to get intoxicated
>Therefore it's okay to drink
Your very first premise is a brazen lie. The King James didn't mistranslate anything. You're just desperate to rebel against the clear teachings of the Bible. And you're so comfortable with lying that I would bet money you aren't even saved. I recommend you go drink until you commit suicide. I think that would be a worthy end for your pathetic "life".

>>17799723
>The King James didn't mistranslate anything.
Fine it doesn't, in which case it's not talking about Cannabis, instead it's talking about Calamus, which is still an intoxicating plant. You see why this isn't helping your argument right?
>The Bible says "Be Sober".
Yeah, the book contradicts itself constantly, everyone knows this.

>>17799731
>the book contradicts itself
There it is. Have fun burning.

>>17799716
He's been doing that, it's his MO. Why call it now?

>>17799731
>instead it's talking about Calamus, which is still an intoxicating plant. You see why this isn't helping your argument right?
No, because I could dip my arm in whiskey and I wouldn't get drunk. You can spray yourself with a tobacco cologne and it won't give you a nicotine hit. Not only are you a liar, but you're a retarded liar.

Grape juice it is.

>>17799740
I want to point out that since Calamus is also highly toxic, this also makes it less likely that it's a proper translation, it would actually make more sense to use cannabis oil if you were going to rub it on yourself.
And yeah, the Bible indeed describes the oil as "an ointment compound after the art of apothecary" which means it was indeed used as a drug

>>17799751
>"an ointment compound after the art of apothecary" which means it was indeed used as a drug
No, it doesn't. You just can't follow a coherent line of thought, and are desperately flailing around to try to cover up the fact that you are lying.

>>17797143
>Moving the goalposts. We are not talking about drinks with 0.25% alcohol content. You are a liar.
Wines made with natural fermentation (relying on ambient yeasts, not adding any), easily get above 15%. These were the goal posts set when we started talking about their wine 2000 years ago.

>>17799751
>highly toxic
Another lie. You thought I wouldn't check that one? Here you go, liar:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2221169112603542
>>17799756
>Wines made with natural fermentation (relying on ambient yeasts, not adding any), easily get above 15%.
Great. They preserved it, or they used fresh juice. Take your pick.

>>17799754
>No, it doesn't.
Yeah, it does, that's literally what they mean when they say this. An ointment is a medicine, and apothecary refers to the ancient study of drugs and medicine in general. I don't think it could be anymore clear to be honest

>>17799767
>an ointment is a medicine

>>17799767
Also, you hate God so much that you have to pretend he doesn't exist, so I don't know why you are here. I guess that "I hate God" tumor is acting up again.

back to the question of alcohol. someone in the story comments to the host that others usually start with the good drink and proceed to inferior drink later (whereas he seemed to do it in reverse, so good was the water-into-drink miracle). it is evident how does this work with wine, as the drunken guests can no longer adequately judge the quality of what they drink; but how does this work out with juice?

>>17799773
Yes?
Even your pic says it's meant to be applied to diseased parts of your body
You're really splitting hairs right now lmao

>>17799778
>lmao
Good bye.
>>17799776
>but how does this work out with juice?
Because usually the host will bring out the good food and drinks first when everyone is hungry and has a clean palette. As people chow down and the celebration is underway, "WOW"ing your guests is less important than it is when making that first impression.

I win!

>mentally retarded person with semi-developed morals notices his religion condones low morals
>instead of abandoning this clearly false creed, the retard attempts to assign alternate meanings to words until the offending passage has been garbled to the point of meaninglessness, allowing it to be comfortably ignored
Why is this such a common mechanism for religious evolution amongst Abrahamists?

>>17801753
Off-topic posting is against the rules. Enjoy Hell.

>>17794054
Within Halacha any beverage made from grapes is considered wine legally speaking, even if it’s completely non-alcoholic and unfermented.

>>17798256
>Because they called it wine.
But they wouldn’t have. Both Greek and Armaic have words for juice and wine and so did old English. There is zero reason to assume they meant juice.
>You are trashy.
You’re a Baptist lol. You’re like a Muslim.