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Thread 17983840

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Anonymous No.17983840 [Report] >>17983851 >>17983858 >>17983868 >>17985502 >>17985512 >>17985554 >>17985714 >>17985927 >>17985990 >>17986307 >>17986621 >>17988611
500 Years German Peasants War
What do *YOU* know about the German Peasants War that occured roughly 500 years ago?
What do *YOU* wish to know?
What are *YOUR* hot takes about this event?
Anonymous No.17983844 [Report] >>17986621
Thread theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv0AvFyYAmE
Anonymous No.17983851 [Report] >>17983927 >>17985845
>>17983840 (OP)
>German Peasants War
Who did they ethnically cleanse from their lands? I assume it was a fundamentalist christian revival purge of non whites of some kind, an internal crusade.
Anonymous No.17983858 [Report] >>17983927
>>17983840 (OP)
>What are *YOUR* hot takes about this event?
The library I used to frequent had a lot of history books written by DDR professors. They loved the German Peasant's War.
Anonymous No.17983868 [Report] >>17983963
>>17983840 (OP)
>insurgencies
>remove kebab
Anonymous No.17983927 [Report] >>17984109
>>17983851
It was a revolt by many semi-independently operating peasant formations (the so called Bauernhof - peasants mobs would be a literal translation). Causes for those revolts were of social, economic and religious origin. This event fell into the same timeframe as the Reformation and many peasants were fed up with the burdons of tithes and the reduction of formerly common ressources (grazing areas, forests, fishing rights) that increasingly fell into the property of the larger feudal lords - which included abbys and monestaries.
As the violent uprisings became larger in scale and more organised, the Swabian League (an alliance of several feudal lords) retaliated with a modern Landsknecht army. And while some Bauernhaufen were led by former miltary members (the Black Band of Florian Geyer, an Imperial Knight) many were simply bands of angry peasants who were quickly beaten by the army of the Swabian League.
What followed were brutal repressions. Georg III. von Waldburg (pic rel), the main general of the League, conducted many massacres on revolting or suspected villages.It should be noted that many cities and petty nobles also sided with the peasantry to oppose the inceasing power of the larger feudal lords.
>>17983858
They sure did! The GDR saw them as early revolutionaries in line with their own political program - wholeheartedly ignoring the strong religious motivations of the peasantry.But to be fair, the large feudal lords used their victory to further erode the early medieval liberties of the cities, petty nobles and commoners in favor of their own authority.
Anonymous No.17983963 [Report] >>17984024 >>17988706
Here a stamp by the GDR which celebrates Thomas Müntzer. He was a protestant theologian who sympathised heavily with the peasants. He became a religious and political leader of the peasants in Thuringia. He clashed heavily with Martin Luther (who sided with the nobles against the peasants) but some of his church reforms, mainly music pieces, continued to be used to this present day.
Münzter found his end after the Battle of Frankenhausen of 1525, where the peasants succumbed to an army of several feudal lords, as he was imprisoned and executed.
>>17983868
What does this have to do with the German Peasants War?
Anonymous No.17983980 [Report] >>17985897
Müntzer also designed this flag for his particular movement." Verbum domini maneat in etternum" translates to "Let the word of the Lord remain forever". The rainbow being a common christian symbol for the covenant with God.
Anonymous No.17983990 [Report]
A more "proletarian" symbol of the revolting peasants was the Bundschuh Flag, which simply depicts a common type of footwear.
Anonymous No.17984024 [Report] >>17984080
>>17983963
>what
that was an insurgency yes??
Anonymous No.17984080 [Report] >>17984220
>>17984024
Would you also post those pictures in a thread about the Boudican revolt?
Anonymous No.17984109 [Report] >>17984195
>>17983927
>wholeheartedly ignoring the strong religious motivations of the peasantry
They just wanted to RTVRN to an age between Roman Law.
Anonymous No.17984195 [Report] >>17984253 >>17985497 >>17985865 >>17986727
>>17984109
While not adopted by all Bauernhaufen, the Twelve Articles of Memmingen were the closest thing to a political program:
1) Every town should have the right to elect its pastor and to remove him if he behaves improperly. The pastor should preach the gospel clearly and simply, without any human addition, since Scripture states that we can come to God only through true faith.
2) The large tithe is to be used to pay the priests. Any surplus is to be used to help the poor and to pay the war tax. The small tithe is to be abolished because it is a human invention and not based on the bible, for the Lord God created livestock freely for man.
3) Until now it has been practice that we have been treated like serfs, which is deplorable, since Christ redeemed all of us with his precious blood, both the shepherd and the nobleman, with no exceptions. Accordingly we hereby declare that we are free and want to remain free.
4) It is unbrotherly and not in accordance with the word of God that the poor man is not entitled to hunt game or fowl, or to fish. Since when God our Lord created man, he gave him power over all beasts, the birds in the air and the fish in the water.
5) The nobles have taken sole possession of the forest. When the poor man needs something, he must buy it for twice its price. Consequently, all the forests that were not bought by the nobles shall be returned to the village so that anybody can satisfy his needs therefrom for timber and firewood.
6) The excessive compulsory labour demanded of us, which grows from day to day, should be reduced to the amount that our parents used to perform, according to God's word.
7) The nobility shall not force us to perform more compulsory labour than was agreed upon.
8) Many estates cannot afford the rent. Honest people should inspect these estates and reassess the rent fairly, so that the farmer does not do his work in vain, for every laborer is worthy of his wages.
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Anonymous No.17984216 [Report] >>17986727
9) New laws are constantly being made to impose new fines. Punishments are not being meted out depending on the offence but instead in an arbitrary fashion. In our opinion we should be judged in accordance with the old written law, according to the case's merits, instead of on a whim.
10) Many nobles have appropriated the common meadows and fields belonging to the towns . We want them returned to all of us.
11) The death tax (Mortuarium) should be abolished completely, and never again should widows and orphans be robbed so shamefully against God and honor
12) It is our decision and final opinion that if one or more of the articles listed herein contradict God's word, we shall rescind them if it is explained to us on the basis of what is written. If any articles were already granted to us and it emerges afterwards that they were unjust, then they shall be null and void. Likewise, all this is subject to the condition that if additional articles are found here written that are against God and a grievance by some other person.
About 25000 printed issues of those 12 Articles were produced and distributed.
Anonymous No.17984220 [Report] >>17984292
>>17984080
>would
probably
I am always looking for new spamming opportunities
Anonymous No.17984253 [Report]
>>17984195
Literally the french revolution.
Anonymous No.17984292 [Report]
>>17984220
Based.
Anonymous No.17984648 [Report] >>17985245
I know a little bit. I'm aware that some of its leaders used Lutheran ideas like critique of clerical power to justify social demands, which I think is an interesting tactic.
Anonymous No.17985245 [Report]
>>17984648
Well the clergy and nobility used the scripture to justify the existing social and economic circumstances.
Anonymous No.17985497 [Report] >>17985840
>>17984195
Wouldnt forests still need to be managed and regulated?
Anonymous No.17985502 [Report] >>17985840
>>17983840 (OP)
Götz did nothing wrong
Anonymous No.17985512 [Report]
>>17983840 (OP)
I know that it was near universally crushed by the nobility.
Anonymous No.17985550 [Report]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants%27_War
Anonymous No.17985554 [Report] >>17985840
>>17983840 (OP)
What's the different historiographical perspectives on the war
Anonymous No.17985714 [Report] >>17986747
>>17983840 (OP)
It is based because like every peasant uprising, a small number of Chads crushed the masses with ease.
The lower classes are literally lesser beings and them constantly losing without support from real humans is hilarious.
Anonymous No.17985840 [Report] >>17986297 >>17988512
>>17985497
Yes and this task would fall to the respective community.
>>17985502
There is a case to be made, that he was forced by the Neckartal-Odenwald peasants to become their military leader/chief advisor. And after the war the Imperial Chamber Court found him innocent - the Swaziland League forced conditions (payments, house arrest and an oath to peace) unto him on their own.
>>17985554
I will to answer that when I'm back from work.
Anonymous No.17985845 [Report]
>>17983851
How many non whites do you reckon were living in 16th century Germany?
Anonymous No.17985865 [Report] >>17986611
>>17984195
How can an honest nobleman run his fief without a little forced labor now and then?
A good hard days work keeps a man hearty and hale anyhow.
Anonymous No.17985897 [Report]
>>17983980
Honestly I like it.
Anonymous No.17985927 [Report] >>17986727
>>17983840 (OP)
I only really know it was linked to the reformation in a vague sense. Luther disavowed the movement because he was at heart a tepid magisterial. But Müntzer was in it until the end. And he was the insane type of protestant. The other type.
There was a league of Free Cities, and it happened somewhere in Bavaria.

>What do *YOU* wish to know?
What caused it? Was it like the Hussite revolt? Why where there knights involved in the peasant revolt? and what was their goal?

I know too little to have hot takes.
Anonymous No.17985990 [Report] >>17986299 >>17986991
>>17983840 (OP)
Does Charles Tilly's "War makes the state" thesis apply to peasant wars?
Anonymous No.17986297 [Report] >>17986768
>>17985840
Thank you. I was on team Götz as soon as I started reading Goethe.
Anonymous No.17986299 [Report]
>>17985990
I wish his books were easier to locate
Anonymous No.17986307 [Report]
>>17983840 (OP)
It is well known how the Anabaptists and Lutherans respectively reacted to the situation, but how did the Reformed Christians of the day respond?
Anonymous No.17986611 [Report]
>>17985865
The issue wasn't the existence of the forced labor (corvée is the correct english term; I should have checked my translation) but that the corvée was arbitrarily increased by the feudal lords. This was a huge deal as the corvée services were usually clearly defined and regulated, either through written contracts or oral agreements/common laws. But by the 15th century and onwards many feudal lords just threw those agreements out of the window and forced the peasants to do their addtional work - and the peasants (regardless of wether they were free or not) had no opportunity to levy a complaint.
Anonymous No.17986621 [Report] >>17986840
>>17983840 (OP)
The rebels were the good guys, it's one of the things even Nazis and commies agree on, no doubt many more in the political spectrum. Only degenerated disagree.
>>17983844
Best version coming through
https://youtu.be/VwQlJrg_ltU?si=etMRmqf5kXrKRyJA
Anonymous No.17986727 [Report] >>17986747 >>17986757 >>17988198
>>17985927
>Luther
Luther was against the peasants as he feared for the legitimacy of the Reformation and that it would be used by violent revolters.
>Müntzer
Was in his views on millenarism closer to the anabaptists than to Luther - but that's where the similarity ends. What is clear however is that Müntzer was very concerned with the hardships of the peasants, the issues they brought up and with the general (to him and many other) immoral and unchristian behavior of the nobility and church. And while Luther on the other hand wasn't blind to those subjects (he still criticised nobility and church for their abuse of power after the war broke out) he saw the political realities and sided with the established powers of state to ensure the survival of the Reformation. He also called Müntzer a hot-head who was difficult to work with.
>league of Free Cities
The Swabian League. It was an alliance of several secular and ecclesiastical states and inclueded some imperial cities as well. The League was initiated by Emperor Frederick III. and the following emperors also showed their blessings towards this alliance. Thus it had enormous power in southern Germany.
>Bavaria
Check out this map. Thuringia, Saxony, Franconia, Tyrol and Switzerland were the real hot spots.
>What caused it? Was it like the Hussite revolt?
Social and economic issues that the peasantry faced like increasing burdons of tithes, corvée services, privatisation (favorable to larger landowners) of formerly common lands and a degredation of earlier rights. Those developments were justified by the feudal lords (twhich also included the church) by religion. With the Reformation this framework was called into question and the peasantry demanded reforms - see the 12 Articles of Memmingen here: >>17984195 & >>17984216
(1/2)
Anonymous No.17986747 [Report] >>17986875 >>17988198
>>17986727
>Why where there knights involved in the peasant revolt?
Some were simply coerced by the peasants like Götz von Berlichingen. Other, like Florian Geyer, were sympathetic towards the issues of the peasantry. And many of the petty nobles faced similar issues. Two years prior to the German Peasants War there were two seperate uprisings of petty nobles in nearly the same area. The Knights Revolt of 1522/23 and the Franconian Revolt of 1523. In both cases petty nobles and knights warred against the Swabian League as the larger states centralised in power, which resulted in a reduction of rights and authority for the petty nobles. And many also had economic issues as their smaller holdings could not cover the increasing demand for tithes.
And like with the Peasants War the Swabian League violently suppressed the revolting knights; utilizing a modern Landsknecht army with artillery to break the resistence.
>and what was their goal?
The peasants were never a unified political entity. The 12 Articles of Memmingen are the only political program that ever came from this "movement" and it wasn't adopted by all revolting peasants.
(2/2)
>>17985714
What's your take on the Knights Revolt and the Franconian Revolt, where common Landsknechte wiped the floor with the rebelling nobles?
Anonymous No.17986757 [Report]
>>17986727
>Luther was against the peasants as he feared for the legitimacy of the Reformation and that it would be used by violent revolters.
High grade irony.
Anonymous No.17986768 [Report]
>>17986297
Personally I think he was a bit of a cunt, being a robber knight and all that, but his involvement in the Peasants War doesn't merit a harsh treatment. In fact, his role was quite minimal.
And kek at the fact that autocorrect transformed Swabian into Swaziland.
Big Bongus !!9zfcclmmPlH No.17986840 [Report]
>>17986621
Nazis and commies agree on many things
Anonymous No.17986875 [Report] >>17986991
>>17986747
Landsknecht weren't common.
They were highly trained transient professionals that were disproportionately wealthy and influential.
Mercenary bands in this era were the farthest thing from motley crews of mooks and amateurs. In Germany and Italy both they were often literally king-makers.
Anonymous No.17986991 [Report]
>>17985990
I had to look him up.
His wiki statement that ”[...] governments themselves commonly simulate, stimulate, or even fabricate threats of external war.” does not hold true as while the members of the Swabian League certainly cumulated their own power at the expense of the commoners or petty nobles, they didn't fabricate the revolt to have an artifical external threat to unite their subjects.
And apparently another thesis of his is early modern wars became so cost intensive, that states were forced to adopt to more efficent methods of leving their ressources in order to wage war - thus ensuring the survival of modern states. And to that I say: yeah - there is more to it imo but the capital intensity of modern wars can be a driving force in modernising a state.
But correct me if I'm wrong with my understanding of Tillys statements.
>>17986875
While Landsknechte weren't commoners regarding their societal estate, they weren't nobles.Your previous statement seems to imply a superiority inherently to the noble estate, that can't be overcome by the lesser societal estates.
Anonymous No.17988188 [Report]
Bump
Anonymous No.17988198 [Report] >>17988638
>>17986727
>>17986747
Thanks. So this phenomenon was largely independent of the protestant reformation? As in, had the reformation not happened, would the rebellion still have happened in largely the same way?
Anonymous No.17988512 [Report] >>17988638
>>17985840
>the Swaziland League
Anonymous No.17988611 [Report] >>17988616 >>17988638
>>17983840 (OP)
Did us Dutch had a role in it?
Anonymous No.17988616 [Report]
>>17988611
>Dutch
that's a German who speaks with a Portuguese accent
Anonymous No.17988638 [Report]
>>17988198
Yes and no. The Reformation created favorable conditions for certain aspects of the revolt, like the critique of the church on the base of protestant understandings of the scripture. Without the Reformation a Peasants Revolt would likely still have occurred but it would have been qualitatively different.
>>17988512
We wuzz Freibauern n scheiß
>>17988611
Not really.
Anonymous No.17988706 [Report]
>>17983963
Here's a recent book on this fellow