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Thread 17986475

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Anonymous No.17986475 [Report] >>17986498 >>17986507 >>17986612 >>17986688 >>17986783 >>17987063 >>17987733 >>17987941
Catholics lost all credibility with Pope Leo X. You heretics can't even pretend to be Christian anymore, much less that your Pope is the "Vicar of Christ."
Anonymous No.17986498 [Report] >>17989048
>>17986475 (OP)
Hail Satan
Anonymous No.17986507 [Report] >>17986594 >>17986612 >>17991996
>>17986475 (OP)
>patron of science and the arts, overseeing the creation of some of the most beautiful monuments ever created by human hands
>NEIN NEIN NEIN! ZE BIBLE DOESNT SAY ZAT, IT IZ VERBOTEN!
Luther was just a snownigger whose pagan shadow yearned to return to his ancestors mudhutts.
Anonymous No.17986594 [Report] >>17986623 >>17986688 >>17986769 >>17986783 >>17987422 >>17988838
>>17986507
Selling indulgences is pretty impossible to defend. They turned the whole religion into a grift.
>inb4 "all religions are grifts"
Even if that were true he went too far
Anonymous No.17986612 [Report]
>>17986475 (OP)
Christcucks never had any credibility desu.
>>17986507
>patron of science and the arts, overseeing the creation of some of the most beautiful monuments ever created by human hands
Rodrigo Borgia did this as well (even excomunicating Savonarola) and he is considered even worse. So the best popes are actually the worst.
>Luther was just a snownigger whose pagan shadow yearned to return to his ancestors mudhutts.
Except it was a Jewish shadow (which all christcucks have) that made him yearn to return to the first christcucks.
Anonymous No.17986623 [Report] >>17986636
>>17986594
>Jesus said its easier for a man to pass through a needles eye than for a rich man to go to heaven
>take money from the rich to make it easier for them to go to heaven
Makes sense to me
Anonymous No.17986636 [Report] >>17986653 >>17987437
>>17986623
If the Church itself becomes rich doesn't that mean it's inviting its own damnation?
Anonymous No.17986653 [Report] >>17986720
>>17986636
The church is an institution, not a person
Anonymous No.17986688 [Report] >>17987082
>>17986475 (OP)
Reading about him it seems a pretty normal Pope.

>>17986594
>impossible to defend.
Its just alms and also voluntary.
Indulgences are connected to good deeds, alms are a good deed.
Yet, since it gets easily associated with the sin of simony and can be abused, its better not to do it.
People still contribute all the same, if the local church needs restoration work, people willingly do it.
Luther's thesis did not put in question the concept of indulgence. Not that his opinion matters.
Anonymous No.17986720 [Report] >>17987076
>>17986653
An institution is comprised of individuals (who themselves got rich off indulgences)
Anonymous No.17986769 [Report] >>17988840
>>17986594
They still sell indulgences, ever heard of mass cards?
Anonymous No.17986783 [Report] >>17986807 >>17986941 >>17987029
>>17986475 (OP)
>>17986594
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X
>In Protestant circles, Leo is associated with granting indulgences for those who donated to reconstruct St. Peter's Basilica, a practice that was soon challenged by Martin Luther's 95 Theses.

Protestants never mention St. Peter's Basilica. They always condemn the indulgences but they will NEVER EVER tell you what the indulgences were for.
Anonymous No.17986807 [Report] >>17986823 >>17986924 >>17987068
>>17986783
>Indulgences were fine because they were used to finance a mega-palace for the already ultra-wealthy
And you're arguing that makes them less corrupt?
Anonymous No.17986823 [Report] >>17986832
>>17986807
It's just what Jesus would've wanted bro.
Anonymous No.17986832 [Report] >>17986858
>>17986823
Pretty sure Jesus started flipping tables when his fellow Rabbis commercialized his faith.
Anonymous No.17986858 [Report] >>17986863
>>17986832
It wasn't that there was trade going on there per se, it was that it was crooked money changers ripping people off on top of it being in the temple.
Anonymous No.17986863 [Report] >>17986873
>>17986858
How is selling indulgences not "ripping people off?" There's no scriptural basis for their implementation meaning the implicit assumption they help purchasers get into Heaven was nothing more than a scam.
Anonymous No.17986873 [Report] >>17986883
>>17986863
Because it isn't
Anonymous No.17986883 [Report] >>17987035
>>17986873
Wow you really changed my mind with that well-thought argument
Anonymous No.17986924 [Report] >>17986977 >>17987084
>>17986807
>donations for church restoration bad
>seceding from the Church and stealing property to fill the royalty's coffers good
Protties have yet to come up with an answer as to why every major Protestant conversion in history was done entirely out of political and material reasons
Anonymous No.17986941 [Report] >>17986984
>>17986783
fun fact they originally wanted towers on it
Anonymous No.17986977 [Report] >>17986995
>>17986924
The Church shouldn't have tried to overexert its authority over political actors. It brought its schisms upon itself.
Anonymous No.17986984 [Report] >>17987042
>>17986941
>God uses Luther to cut funds so the retards in Rome cant afford to build shitty minarets around their church
He truly works in mysterious ways.
Anonymous No.17986995 [Report] >>17987133
>>17986977
Why shouldn't the Church exert influence on the government?
Are you some kind of atheist who wants the Church to be nothing more than a puppet for the government that gets to decide what's good and evil?
Anonymous No.17987029 [Report]
>>17986783
>no no, you see we used all that stolen money to build a giant golden palace for the pope!
LOL
Anonymous No.17987035 [Report] >>17987126
>>17986883
The money changers were intentionally shorting people and ripping them off. Verifiable. Can you verify indulgences wouldn't be valid? No? Then STFU
Anonymous No.17987042 [Report]
>>17986984
no it was because they didnt build sufficient foundations
they started to build it then the facade started to crack
Anonymous No.17987063 [Report]
>>17986475 (OP)
Pope Steven 6th...he actually dug up his pope rival and put his corpse on trial...lol now that's fucking metal
Anonymous No.17987068 [Report]
>>17986807
St. Peter's Basilica is a church. Are you not even aware of basic history?
Anonymous No.17987076 [Report]
>>17986720
>An institution is comprised of individuals
By that argument I'm a billionaire because I'm employed by a corporation with a 10 digits worth.
Anonymous No.17987082 [Report]
>>17986688
The 95 Theses represented a woefully under-developed theology, though it is known Luther's breakthrough had preceded them. Martin Luther was God's fool and most of what he preached would be clearly refined in the following years as the Reformation ramped up and began, not all of it good. The true problem with the indulgence sale, which comes out in a few of the theses, is not that they were selling salvation (which would be egregious enough) but selling damnation in the form of a false gospel exchanged for money. For purgatory is nothing but a denial of the saving gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is the complete purgatory of the Christian.
Some of the Theses:
>Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.
>Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.
>We say on the contrary that papal indulgences cannot remove the very least of venial sins as far as guilt is concerned.
Anonymous No.17987084 [Report] >>17987127
>>17986924
Because that's only true in your mind.
Anonymous No.17987126 [Report] >>17987242 >>17993011
>>17987035
>invent the concept of purgatory
>tell people their dead relatives are suffering there but can be bailed out with cash
https://www.cathedralchapel.org/mass-for-deceased
>for only $20 (per mass) you can shave off time that your granny spends in purgatory

If you don't think its a ripoff why aren't you sending the church money to save your dead family members from purgatory, the totally real place that exists?
Anonymous No.17987127 [Report]
>>17987084
Open a book that isn't KJV bible sometime
Anonymous No.17987133 [Report] >>17987187
>>17986995
The Church should concern itself with supernatural affairs and leave politics to governments. Think of how many wars were needlessly fought over the Pope seething about a lack of control over the HRE and vice-versa.
Anonymous No.17987187 [Report] >>17987308
>>17987133
Thank you for admitting you're an atheist.
A Christian knows there's no hard distinction between sacrum and profanum.
Anonymous No.17987225 [Report]
>Open a book that isn't KJV bible sometime
Anonymous No.17987242 [Report]
>>17987126
Who says I'm not?
Anonymous No.17987308 [Report] >>17988088
>>17987187
Running a country and running a clergy simply requires different skills
Anonymous No.17987422 [Report] >>17987502 >>17993747
>>17986594
There is literally nothing wrong with indulgences.
Money corrupts people. Therefore it is morally good and Christian to remove money from people. However, removing money from their pockets is hard (again, because it corrupts them with greed). Indulgences are the perfect method: they will gladly part with their money, they'll feel good about it, and the money can be used by the Church for charity or to build great monuments in the name of God.
Anonymous No.17987437 [Report] >>17987502 >>17987602
>>17986636
No, because the Church is guided by God and does good deeds with its wealth. Indeed, the Church is to this day the largest charity provider in the world and its works of sacred art, such as St. Peter's Basilica and the countless other beauitful churches in Italy, help create divine awe in people and push them closer to God or even convert.
Anonymous No.17987502 [Report] >>17987504
>>17987422
>>17987437
>Wealth corrupts
>Therefore the church should do everything possible to make its members as rich as possible
Anonymous No.17987504 [Report]
>>17987502
By members I meant bureaucrats*
Anonymous No.17987602 [Report] >>17987646
>>17987437
Opulent houses of idols only push people away from God and into superstition or contempt
Anonymous No.17987646 [Report] >>17987656 >>17987685
>>17987602
Good thing there are no idols inside churches.
Anonymous No.17987656 [Report]
>>17987646
Heresies aren't real
Anonymous No.17987685 [Report] >>17990610
>>17987646
Not in Christian ones no.
Anonymous No.17987733 [Report]
>>17986475 (OP)
>a non-Christian trying to tell us what a Christian is
Anonymous No.17987941 [Report] >>17988077
>>17986475 (OP)
>Leo
Why does the name Leo make them sweat?
Anonymous No.17988077 [Report] >>17988092
>>17987941
Things always got a little too based whenever a Leo was in charge.
Lets hope his holiness today can keep the tradition going.
Anonymous No.17988088 [Report]
>>17987308
If we look at history and modern day politics running a county requires no skills.
Anonymous No.17988092 [Report] >>17988817
>>17988077
He's in dialog with James Martin. Ex cathedra LGBT affirmation soon
Anonymous No.17988817 [Report] >>17988822
>>17988092
There are only two cases of Ex Cathedra, and they were both used to say that the church is perfect. Lulz.

Immaculate Conception (1854): Pope Pius IX declared that Mary (the church) was conceived free from original sin (Ineffabilis Deus).
Assumption of Mary (1950): Pope Pius XII declared that Mary (the church) was assumed body and soul into heaven (Munificentissimus Deus).
Anonymous No.17988822 [Report]
>>17988817
Both done by a Pope Pius, not a Leo. I think we are safe bros.
Anonymous No.17988838 [Report] >>17988855
>>17986594
>giving to charity is a grift
Anonymous No.17988840 [Report] >>17988853
>>17986769
No. Tell us about them.
Anonymous No.17988853 [Report] >>17988857
>>17988840
Johann Tetzel
Anonymous No.17988855 [Report] >>17988866 >>17990279
>>17988838
It's not charity if the expectation is that it'll allow you to buy one's way out of purgatory / get relatives out of purgatory - it's closer to giving into a hostage taker. Pure extortion.
Anonymous No.17988857 [Report]
>>17988853
?
Anonymous No.17988866 [Report] >>17988900
>>17988855
Its not based on money anymore, but it still requires a payment of time and energy. But you dont need Mary to intercede for you. If you are a servent of christ, just do as he tells you. That advice comes directly from his mother.
Anonymous No.17988900 [Report] >>17988997
>>17988866
We're very clearly talking about a time when it *was* based on money considering this is a thread about Pope Leo X.
Anonymous No.17988997 [Report] >>17989000
>>17988900
>was
How can mary repent if she is immaculately concieved, and is free from origional sin?
Anonymous No.17989000 [Report]
>>17988997
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. More "exegesis" (headcanon) invented by Catholics in the same vein as Purgatory to justify their many grifts.
Anonymous No.17989048 [Report]
>>17986498
>Catholic tries to pretend to be Satanist to derail thread and make OP look anti-Christian
Enjoy Hell
Anonymous No.17990279 [Report] >>17990370 >>17991810
>>17988855
>It's not charity if the expectation is that it'll allow you to buy one's way out of purgatory
The communion of the saints is a notion upheld by every christian denomination (even the reformers didn't challenge it, they just said it shouldn't be a focus of devotion). It means that every good work of charity ultimately helps everyone, both on Earth and in heaven. So by doing corporal works of charity on Earth, like giving material support to the church, you can help the souls in purgatory.

The catechism explains:

>953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself." "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." "Charity does not insist on its own way." In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, *the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all.*
Anonymous No.17990370 [Report] >>17990614
>>17990279
Except purgatory has no Biblical basis and is a complete Catholic invention to wring money out of people who were already expected to pay tithes anyway. Most of your sects internal theology is derived entirely from greed.
Anonymous No.17990610 [Report]
>>17987685
The bronze serpent only became an idol once it was worshiped as another god.
Anonymous No.17990614 [Report] >>17990616 >>17991810
>>17990370
I don't think it's fair to claim that it has *no bibilical basis* when we have both good and bad people interacting with the living, and with one another, from within Sheol. It presupposes that there is some kind of intermediary state prior to the eschaton, prior to Paradise and Gehenna, in which the dead, though disembodied, are still conscious.
Anonymous No.17990616 [Report] >>17990618
>>17990614
>there is likely an intermediate state after death
>gib money pl0x to shorten it huehuehue
Anonymous No.17990618 [Report] >>17990932
>>17990616
The existence of Purgatory does not demand the creation and sale of indulgences.
Anonymous No.17990932 [Report]
>>17990618
And yet...
Anonymous No.17991810 [Report] >>17991938 >>17992866
>>17990279
>every good work of charity ultimately helps everyone, both on Earth and in heaven.
You have badly misunderstood the reformers if you think this is something they believed.
>>17990614
That's not the same thing as purgatory.
Anonymous No.17991938 [Report] >>17991994
>>17991810
>this state that is very much like Purgatory isn't Purgatory according to my hyper specific defintion that just so happens to support my ideology
Anonymous No.17991994 [Report] >>17992317
>>17991938
Abraham's Bosom was a compartment of Sheol which stored the righteous until the Lord brought them to heaven to which the righteous are now delivered since He opened the veil to the true tabernacle. It was not a place of torment or suffering of any kind, we are only told of the wicked suffering there.

There is absolutely nothing in the bible about purgatory. The very concept is incompatible with the biblical gospel.
Anonymous No.17991996 [Report] >>17992003
>>17986507
Catlicks accusing protties of being pagans is a new one. As an actual pagan it never ceases amusing me to watch a collection of jew cults all accuse each other of being pagan. Reminds me of libcucks and republicunts both calling each other nazis over tiny little grievances
Anonymous No.17992003 [Report]
>>17991996
We've got a bunch of obsessed browns that think christianity is inherently incompatible with living north of the alps. Of course its very likely that anon has never stepped foot in a church since his sister got married two years ago
Anonymous No.17992317 [Report] >>17992866 >>17993266
>>17991994
The Bible teaches that Christ descended into Hades and preached to the "formerly disobedient." No part of this indicates that He only saved the OT righteous through this or that only those living had the power to accept His message. Rather, we have every reason to believe and to hope that He offered salvation to the dead generally.
Anonymous No.17992866 [Report] >>17993266
>>17991810
nigga
>The Augsburg Confession affirms that the saints "pray for the Church universal" in life and in heaven.
>The Westminster Confession, which articulates the Reformed faith, teaches that the communion of saints includes those united to Christ – both the living and the dead.
>Anglicans pray for the dead, "because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is."
>In Methodist theology, "When we gather in worship, we praise God with believers we cannot see. When we celebrate Holy Communion, we feast with past, present and future disciples of Christ. We experience the communion of saints, the community of believers –– living and dead. This faith community stretches beyond space and time. We commune with Christians around the world, believers who came before us, and believers who will come after us. We believe that the church is the communion of saints, and as a believer, you belong to the communion of saints."

>>17992317
simple as. purgatory is the cleansing encounter with Jesus Christ (baptism of fire).
Anonymous No.17993011 [Report]
>>17987126
I always pay for a requiem Mass at the date my grandma's died. I don't really know why I do it, she wasn't Catholic. I even told the priest as much as that. I just enjoy thinking about her.
I'll also always add her name to be prayed at Mass, everyday I go. They always read.
You're presenting it as it's a mandatory or there's no other options. This huge "rip off" is easily circumvented by the Plenary Indulgence granted during All Soul's Day. That's the problem with you fuckers, you'll cherrypick things meant to support the Church and claim those are the only ways to be saved, you'll say that Catholics are paying 20 dollars to save family from purgatory, when we can do that for FREE every year during the 8 days before and after All Soul's Day. It's not even on that exactly and only day, they even extend it to a two weeks thing. For free.
Anonymous No.17993266 [Report] >>17993857
>>17992317
No, there is every reason to deny that if you understand the biblical gospel and the nature of covenant. The passage you're citing makes no reference to the damned spirits repenting, only being preached to (that is, He declared His triumph over them). When the Lord rescued the spirits of the old covenant saints He did so as covenant faithfulness to His people. Ergo, those which were strangers from the covenant of promise then as well as know were excluded from the promise of the covenant. If He had any intention to save them, they would have repented while they lived. Nor is there some great difference between now and the time of their lives whereby they receive special treatment, but that covenant of grace which was established in Christ is according to substance the very same as that of Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses, differing only in their external accidents (they circumcised, we baptize). Thus no man has ever been justified before God in any way besides mere faith in Christ.
>>17992866
You are conflating the communion of saints with the idea of your good deeds meriting some kind of blessing for the dead. Also you were mistaken about the reasoning for the indulgences, which was not that your good work lessened their suffering of purgatory but that it was rewarded with a withdrawal of saintly merit from the thesaurus meritorum (which is called an indulgence). Good luck finding a Protestant confession that taught that.
>purgatory is the cleansing encounter with Jesus Christ
Purgatory is satisfaction for the temporal punishments of your own sins, and thus nothing but a denial of the satisfaction of Christ.
Anonymous No.17993747 [Report]
>>17987422
If Jesus lashed out at the Pharisees for selling doves and conducting commerce in the temple, I can’t imagine how he’d feel about his supposedly most devout followers selling indulgences.
Anonymous No.17993857 [Report]
>>17993266
>The passage you're citing makes no reference to the damned spirits repenting, only being preached to (that is, He declared His triumph over them).
Again, it states simply that He descended into Hell and proclaimed the good news to the captives. There is no reason to presume this was not efficacious.
>Ergo, those which were strangers from the covenant of promise then as well as know were excluded from the promise of the covenant. If He had any intention to save them, they would have repented while they lived.
We were all by nature children of wrath until Christ's advent (Eph. 2:3). There is no reason to presume that He did not allow the dead to also benefit and be transformed by His arrival.