Thread 18090551

The people who brought Indo-European languages and Vedic Hinduism to India had blonde hair and blue eyes. The reason India today doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes is because they had sex with brown skinned Dravidians for 3500 years. Why is admitting this so controversial? The Kalash people of Pakistan and the Nuristani people of Afghanistan are preserved relics of this ancient Aryan population. They live in isolated mountains no one else ever wanted to travel to so their genes have remained less mixed.

>>18090551 (OP)
>Why is admitting this so controversial?
Because it makes them feel bad about themselves, as they ought to. The caste system was based on whiteness, and placed whites at the top with blacks at the bottom. The mental insanity of Indian people is because they have rejected that truth which underpins their entire genesis.

>>18090551 (OP)
Kalash people genuinely look like white Pakistanis. Like if a Pakistani dyed their hair, bleached their skin, and put in colored contacts.

>>18090551 (OP)
>>18090566
tbf, the kalash thing is a bit exaggerated. most look light brown like northern indians or gypsies. some of these viral pics are edited such as the top left girl in OP's pic for instance IIRC. There is also some "photographer's bias" where they snap pics of the most white-passing ones with striking blue eyes and skip over the mass of more brownoid types.

I'm Ethiopian Habesha - a minority of us , a handful in my family for example, could pass as almost pure Arabian-Caucasoids but the majority of us are more intermediate, and some more SSA-leaning. I could imagine a similar cherrypicking among us leading people to think we all look like pure Yemenis or something.

the Vedic-Aryans would have been "browned" already before entering India as they would been heavy in Iran_N from passing through and mixing with BMAC which contributed to the Vedic culture as we know it..

>The caste system was based on whiteness,
the caste system probably pre-existed the Indo-Aryans as you don't see it in any other IE groups. There was likely already a IVC caste system - these incoming Vedics likely just superimposed themselves on top of this pre-existing system.

>>18090609

It's just a huge COINCIDENCE that higher castes tend to have lighter skin and more R1a. Nothing to see here folks!

>>18090609
>the caste system probably pre-existed the Indo-Aryans as you don't see it in any other IE groups.
It's literally in Ireland.

>>18090623

Everywhere in the world has classes and occupations. But India seems to be the only place that was autistic as fuck about it.

>>18090630

>implying Europe didn't have harsh distinctions and laws prohibiting marriage between nobility and commoners.

>>18090613
It's not a coincidence. Indo-Aryans like I said imposed themselves on top so there is a correlation. I'm just saying they didn't create the system themselves.

>>18090623
Irish did not have anything close to the Indian caste system, no.

>>18090630
>Everywhere in the world has classes and occupations.
That's not what I mean. The Old Irish class system described in early Irish law is a striking parallel of the Indian caste system with cognate words and everything. It was inherited from Proto-Indo-Europeans.

>>18090637

The Indus Valley Civilization/Harappan culture didn't have castes. They were egalitarian.

>>18090638
not at all, that's confusion caused by amateurs running with Dumézil's work. the Irish like other IE groups had client-patron stratified aristocracies but its a far cry from what you see in India. Irish allowed for upward mobility, no ritual purity autism, no profession-locking, and poets/commoners could rise in status etc...

>>18090645
I doubt it. People think that basically because they lacked elite royal burials like Egypt and Mesopotamia to a lesser extent but I'm not convinced.

>>18090655
See for yourself.

>>18090684
That is basically mapping PIE tripartite rank-terminology onto Brahmanical caste, and pretending the surface vocabulary similarity = structural equivalency on the ground. No one disputes they were all IE-speakers had shared linguistic roots. Romans had etymological parallels too, and they had their own hierarchies of plebs, patricians but no one refers to Romans system as a caste system.

>>18090746
Let's go back to what you said:
>the caste system probably pre-existed the Indo-Aryans as you don't see it in any other IE groups. There was likely already a IVC caste system
Nope, the Indian caste system was inherited from Proto-Indo-Europeans. That's why the cognate terms are there:
aire ~ aryah
rí ~ rajanyah
doír ~ dasah

Additionally, the position of the bóaire is corroborated by the Iranian caste system. We can take the reconstruction a step further:
The Germanic class system is quite similar to the Irish one.
From there a Celto-Germanic reconstruction can be made.
Then the Iranian and Indian class systems can be compared.
When the Celto-Germanic and Indo-Iranian systems are compared, the similarities are too great. It must reflect a common inheritance.

>>18090765
Not even similar

>>18090765
>Nope, the Indian caste system was inherited from Proto-Indo-Europeans
Its IVC heritage

>>18090822
Fantasy. Why would the IVC make pastoralists the very first level of freemen? Both the Celtic and Indo-Iranian systems did this. The both attest to a basic distinction:
• Pastoralists are Aryan freemen.
• Farming serfs are not.

Why? Because Proto-Indo-Europeans were pastoralists.

>>18090839
Shall we refute it? My friend, the IE languages were spread by women, and besides, there isn't a single book that covers this subject. Anthony and Mallory are ignored today for their thousands of errors. Harappans, the great and hot, had a form of caste system. Take the example of the Todas of the Nilgiri Hills, an isolated Dravidian tribe genetically closest to the Harappans, with their own animism. Reductionism is not only false but also obnoxious. They have a ritual caste-like system divided into two hierarchical, ranked endogamous subcastes, further divided into exogamous clans, with councils led by elder males handling social control and disputes through consensus.. show to us the Germanic, Slavic, italic etc yes, you can't

>>18090551 (OP)
Maybe you could say they were as European as the ancient people of the Steppe, but blonde hair and blue eyes were fairly rare even in Europe 3000 years ago.

>>18090839
>>18090839
>>18090765
What you're talking about is just a pastoral hierarch which every PIE-descended society had. (and plenty of non-IE cultures as well btw but I digress). That alone is not a caste system. In actual Indian caste structure, the priests outrank the pastoralist-warrior class, which is already a break from PIE system. If this were a straight Indo-European inheritance, the kshatriya/pastoralists would be on top (like in Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Iranian).

Also, caste isn’t defined by “rank”, it’s defined by autistic endogamy, birth-locked occupation ritual purity/pollution taboos, none of which exist in other IE branches. Your evidence is PIE stratification (which no one disputes), not caste as an institution. The autistic rigid form in India had to come from the later Indo-Aryan + subcontinental substrate fusion, because if it were purely PIE, you’d see it in every IE culture which you don't as far as I've read.

>>18090994
>They have a ritual caste-like system divided into two hierarchical, ranked endogamous subcastes, further divided into exogamous clans, with councils led by elder males handling social control and disputes through consensus.. show to us the Germanic, Slavic, italic etc yes, you can't
Interesting. Could very well be an echo of the pre-Aryan caste system substrate that Aryans came and fused their own hierarchy into forming the Indian caste system as we know it.

>>18090994
>>18090999
I admit I exaggerated, the caste system may not be PIE, but there are undeniable aspects

>>18090999
What exactly are you disputing? My only aim is to show there is a common PIE inheritance involved. There is also probably an ethnic element involved here if we understand Aryans vs dasah to be Indo-Europeans vs non-Indo-Europeans (and there are reasons to believe this is what the terminology originally indicated).

>That alone is not a caste system.
My purpose is not to demonstrate that a caste system existed according to your definition of "caste" (whatever that is). This feels too much like arguing semantics. If you are in agreement that there are prominent elements in the social hierarchy which could be inherited from Proto-Indo-Europeans, we are done.

>>18091029
Fuck off idiot. Pretending to be someone else to win an argument just makes you a loser.

>>18090999
Your semantics don't take into account the etymological similarities present in Ireland, and it's interesting that you mention "rigidity," as we have records in Ireland that royalty in ancient Ireland was hereditary and meritocratic. The right blood was necessary, yes, but rule passed to the man best suited for it. Physical imperfections were disqualifying. And I'm not kidding, if you were considered "ugly," perhaps your heritage wouldn't save you.

A quasi-democratic system also existed in early Vedic India... and we're talking about Ireland and India, places without contact and thousands of miles apart.

>>18091055
See>>18090994

>>18090551 (OP)
>every nation in Europe but [insert chudcel's favorite nation] are brown subhumans!!
>btw brazilians pakis and arabs are pvre white aryans
why are /pol/groids like this?

>>18091075

Bro who are you talking to? Are they in the room with us right now?

>>18091055
>There is also probably an ethnic element involved here if we understand Aryans vs dasah to be Indo-Europeans vs non-Indo-Europeans
Aryans weren't whites

>>18091073
>Please feed me attention and talk about irrelevant things
No, lol

>>18091095
Was that a concession? Great, I accept, in my source, there was evidence that the Indian caste system also presents continuity with the IVC, its reductionism failed, and there are no examples outside Ireland, which does not present many similarities with India

>>18090765
I'm looking back and this and it does look like I'm saying the Indian caste system has no Pre-Indo-European elements. No, there's always a preexisting culture. I didn't mean to imply that. What I'm saying is the Indo-European elements are so prominent they are casting a shadow over whatever was there before. Brahmins, rajanyah, pastoralists, dasah. Aryans vs dasah. These all have Indo-European parallels.

>>18091107
>I'm looking back and this and it does look like I'm saying the Indian caste system has no Pre-Indo-European elements. No, there's always a preexisting culture.
Hahaha its over you conceded, we accept your defeat

>>18091107
>Brahmins
Indian word

>>18091113
What's the defeat exactly? Indians adopted an Indo-European caste system brought by Indo-Iranians. If there's some Pre-Indo-European elements in the background, what difference does it make?

Indo-Europeans brought a culture and language to India. What is so difficult about this?

>>18091119
The word has an Indo-European etymology, but the important thing here is the Brahmins are a direct parallel to Druids in their practices.

>>18091142
>The word has an Indo-European etymology
Which is..?
>direct parallel to Druids in their practices.
There's no such parallels, your shitty outdated book doesn't proved anything

>>18091128
>Pre-Indo-European elements in the background, what difference does it make?
Show to us the Germanic, Slavic, italic etc

>>18091142
>>18090839
In Ireland it was dismantled in 1881-1933 through land reform plus a pinch of arson.

>>18091154
brāhmaṇá is from PIE *bʰerǵʰ- (“to become high, rise, elevate”). For example, in Celtic a *brigantī was a person of high social status but strictly speaking that does not mean they were using the term for Brahmin-like priests. What we do know is the Druids had the role of something comparable to Brahmins.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/brigant%C4%AB

Here is a quote from Julius Caesar:
>Report says that in the schools of the Druids they learn by heart a great number of verses, and therefore some persons remain twenty years under training. And they do not think it proper to commit these utterances to writing, although in almost all other matters, and in their public and private accounts, they make use of Greek letters.
Druids were passing along extensive oral culture in a way that is comparable to Brahmins learning and reciting the Vedas.

>>18091165
The Germanic one is outlined by the Rígsþula.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADgs%C3%BEula

The social hierarchy is as follows:
1. King
2. Jarl or Earl < *erlaz < *aryalaz (Aryan term)
3. Karl (freeman)
4. Thrall (serf, slave)

>>18090551 (OP)
One thing I always find funny about Indians denying Aryan Migration theory is they think we’re trying to like, steal their legacy and take credit for it or something. It’s not the case, it’s just that we’re Western Autists and care about the truth, and hate when historical accuracy is tainted by political bias. India’s ultranationalist historical revisionism is creeping its way into the education system and it will soon look like Turkey. That’s the problem.

Like, this is probably any historian who is obsessed with Indo-Europeans least favorite branch of them. These people brought their Indo-European religion to India and spread throughout the continent, which resulted in mixing with local traditions and created modern Hinduism, which is syncretic in nature. Also these Aryans mixed with Indians, so they’re extinct. That’s why it’s so funny when they think we’re trying to steal their history because they think we view those people as super badass or something. No, they mixed themselves out of their own existence.

The only ones who remain are isolated tribes in greater Kashmir like in OP’s pic

>>18090551 (OP)
The first photo is photoshoped and Kalash have paternal South Asian ancestrality.

>Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat, Khaliq, et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%)

>Genetic analysis of Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) by Quintana-Murci, Chaix, et al. (2004) stated that "the western Eurasian presence in the Kalash population reaches a frequency of 100%" with the most prevalent mtDNA Haplogroups being U4 (34%), R0 (23%), U2e (16%), and J2 (9%). The study asserted that no East or South Asian lineages were detected and that the Kalash population is composed of maternal western Eurasian lineages (as the associated lineages are rare or absent in the surrounding populations). The authors concluded that a western Eurasian maternal origin for the Kalash is likely

>>18091504
>>18091504
Picrel is the "brown skinned Dravidians" that Kalashs have paternal South Asian ancestrality.

>Gallego Romero et al. (2011) state that their research on lactose tolerance in India suggests that "the west Eurasian genetic contribution identified by Reich et al. (2009) principally reflects gene flow from Iran and the Middle East." They further note that "[t]he earliest evidence of cattle herding in South Asia comes from the Indus River Valley site of Mehrgarh and is dated to 7,000 YBP

>In 2019, a study was published by Shinde et al. on a reconstructed genome obtained from a female skeleton found in an IVC-related cemetery in Rakhigarhi, Haryana, India, dating to around 2,800–2,300 BCE. The analysis suggested that the majority of the genome was closely related to Mesolithic Iranian hunter-gatherers. The remaining portion of the genome was from an indigenous East Eurasian source, termed Ancient Ancestral South Indian (AASI), thought to represent indigenous South Asian hunter-gatherer ancestry. The genome completely lacked the Western Steppe Herder-related ancestry that is found in modern (particularly in northern) South Asians, or any Anatolian Neolithic farmer ancestry. The ancestry of the IVC-related individual is similar to the majority of the ancestry of modern South Asians

>>18091504
Picrel is the "brown skinned Dravidians" that Kalashs have paternal South Asian ancestrality.

>Gallego Romero et al. (2011) state that their research on lactose tolerance in India suggests that "the west Eurasian genetic contribution identified by Reich et al. (2009) principally reflects gene flow from Iran and the Middle East." They further note that "[t]he earliest evidence of cattle herding in South Asia comes from the Indus River Valley site of Mehrgarh and is dated to 7,000 YBP

>In 2019, a study was published by Shinde et al. on a reconstructed genome obtained from a female skeleton found in an IVC-related cemetery in Rakhigarhi, Haryana, India, dating to around 2,800–2,300 BCE. The analysis suggested that the majority of the genome was closely related to Mesolithic Iranian hunter-gatherers. The remaining portion of the genome was from an indigenous East Eurasian source, termed Ancient Ancestral South Indian (AASI), thought to represent indigenous South Asian hunter-gatherer ancestry. The genome completely lacked the Western Steppe Herder-related ancestry that is found in modern (particularly in northern) South Asians, or any Anatolian Neolithic farmer ancestry. The ancestry of the IVC-related individual is similar to the majority of the ancestry of modern South Asians

>>18091504
>The first photo is photoshoped
Kek, people just lie often, don't they