Thread 18095312

Protestantism has done a large damage to smear Catholicism and Christianity as a whole.

>>18095312 (OP)
Ending indulgences

Did the thought of reforming the Catholic Church ever come up from them to the Lutherans? Though I guess they both did it over wives lol. So they would have had to change divorce marriage law and clergy marriage law respectively. The divorce one has really hit us hard imo.

>>18095312 (OP)
>Paxtube thumbnail
Kys

>>18095312 (OP)
Catholics aren't Christian so why would they concern themselves with Christianity as a whole?

>abrahamic golem infightingb

who cares. also prophetical failure "I did not come to bring a spirit of confusion"

>>18095312 (OP)
>Name one good thing to come from the Protestant Reformation
Easy: The King James Bible. Enjoy burning.

>>18095312 (OP)
priests don't have to molest children to get laid in places that flipped to protestant

>>18095312 (OP)
White northern Europe rapidly advancing in technologically thanks to no longer being fettered to browns?

>>18095326
That was literally Luther's goal. They were ass blasted and became even more retarded after the council of Trent.

>>18095326
>reforming the Catholic Church
>implying there was anything wrong with it

>>18095313
Didn't happen and wasn't even that bad.

>The Holy See was very displeased at the settlement, with Pope Innocent X calling it "null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time" in the papal brief Zelo Domus Dei.
The peace of Westphalia brought ultimate victory over papism, as it was rendered politically impotent for the rest of all time.

>>18096071
Yep in the early phase of the war the Habsburgs were definitively considering the forced recatholization of Germany after defeating Bohemia, Denmark and the German princes, with the Edict of Restitution of 1629 as the blueprint. Triggered Sweden's intervention and the rest, as they say, is history

>>18095312 (OP)
Counter-Reformation.

>>18095313
Mass cards still exist.

>>18096186
lol that pic is hilarious

a presbytarian invented the priest collar

>>18096186
>>18096225
Meds

>thousands of years of Christian infighting
Humanity deserves what it gets for this alone.

>>18096266
>Meds

>>18095312 (OP)
The whore of Babylon cannot be reformed and is indeed destroyed in the book of Revelation, but one good thing it helped with was making God's word accessible to the common man.

>>18096186
You truly have captured his essence and effect, well done.

>>18095312 (OP)
Henry VIII was catholic through and through, just hated papacy and the fact it didn't want to annul his marriage

>>18096186
What's the title of original painting? I assume it exists

>>18095312 (OP)
>Name one good thing to come from the Protestant Reformation
Everything that came from the Reformation was good. It ended ecclesiastical tyranny, endless abuses of worship and other transgressions, and purged the Church of heretical false doctrines. The Reformation was the greatest revival the world has yet seen, and took a heavily nominal and corrupt medieval Christendom and gave it new religious life. The only argument the papists have to the Reformation having negative effects is that it somehow caused the Endarkenment, which is a supposition founded solely on the fact the latter was posterior to it in time, somewhat like blaming Martin Luther for stubbing your toe. In reality, the so-called Enlightenment's every principle was directly opposed to every principle of the Reformation. One said that every aspect of society needed to be Christian, that knowledge came only through the word of God, and the meaning of life was to serve God, while the other denied God, secularized all things, and made man the center of life and knowledge. All things considered, the Enlightenment was simply the repudiation of the Reformation.

>>18096558
The Reformation was foretold and commanded in Revelation 18:4.

>>18096779
>Revelation 18:4
Saved people aren't going to be here for the tribulation. This is catholics who are left behind after the rapture due to being false converts but wise up to the truth at some point and God's telling them to leave the whore of Babylon (catholic church) before He can pour out His wrath upon it.

>>18096827
There is no "rapture" in scripture and the tribulation is experienced by all Christians under an unbelieving society. The Revelation is not (from our perspective) merely of future events but is fulfilled throughout history since that time. The prophecies of the beast and the whore of Babylon map too perfectly upon medieval Romanism to plausibly be anything else. For all these things to have happened, and not be the object of the prophecy, is incredible.

>>18096844
>There is no "rapture" in scripture
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. " (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

>>18096844
>The prophecies of the beast and the whore of Babylon map too perfectly upon medieval Romanism to plausibly be anything else

Medival is way in the past, meaning the prophecy did not apply to that time period specifically since catholicism's still around, but that will change in the future.

>>18096773
Without protestantism breaking the Catholic church's power grip over europe the enlightenment would indeed never have happened.
>In reality, the so-called Enlightenment's every principle was directly opposed to every principle of the Reformation.
Not really.
>knowledge came only through the word of God
Which could now be freely interpreted by man rather than the authorities who were supposedly appointed by God. It's not hard to get from this point to
>the other denied God, secularized all things, and made man the center of life and knowledge

>>18096876
>Without protestantism breaking the Catholic church's power grip over europe the enlightenment would indeed never have happened.
You have precisely zero reason for assuming this, but I accept the concession that the only reason you can attribute causation for the Enlightenment to the Reformation is that the pope no longer had a tyrannical stranglehold on the souls of every man, and not that there was any consistency of principles between them.
>Not really.
0 arguments detected
>Which could now be freely interpreted by man rather than the authorities who were supposedly appointed by God.
Yes, it could now be freely believed instead of denied on the false authority of the pope, praise the Lord. Are your bishops not men? Are they not interpreted by men? This is a smoke screen, a red herring to distract from the real issues.
>It's not hard to get from this point to
Actually it's impossible. The chasm between "I believe the word of God" and "there is no God" is infinite. Papists and atheists have much more in common, you both reject the word of God, you both exalt human reason.

>>18096862
>Medival is way in the past, meaning the prophecy did not apply to that time period specifically since catholicism's still around
Does not follow
>>18096855
This is not the same thing as the rapture, which is the idea believers will be teleported to heaven for a period of years while the Antichrist rules on earth.

>>18096962
>This is not the same thing as the rapture, which is the idea believers will be teleported to heaven for a period of years while the Antichrist rules on earth.
But it is.

>>18096965
Can you show me where those passages are expanded to mean believers bodily spend years in heaven after this event?

>>18095312 (OP)
caths were off in koo koo land
that is why prot reform was so successful
see also - indulgences

>>18095312 (OP)
It helped my country form a more distinct national identity by breaking away from Rome and adopting a national church rather than an international one.

>>18095312 (OP)
1000 years of Catholicism made Europe a shithole

>>18096969
Expand? it's literally what it says. You have to piece it together with the verses I already quoted plus the events of Revelation after the church disappears from the narrative in Chapter 4.

>>18096876
>the authorities who were supposedly appointed by God
The Catholic “church” was not the church founded by Christ.
The Catholic Church was founded by Satan to deceive people
Enjoy Hell papist

>>18097648
Why would a papist say "supposedly"?

>>18096876
The worst parts of the Enlightenment came from France, the biggest Catholic country at the time

>>18097569
>it's literally what it says
Must be using different translations because my bible doesn't say anything about spending years bodily in heaven
>after the church disappears
There is no such event anywhere in Revelation. I'm guessing you're reading dispensationalism into the bible, which is a hermeneutical problem because it was made up by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and unheard of by anybody before then including the biblical authors.

>>18095312 (OP)
Traditional Protestantism fixed a lot. Lutheranism is basically the Western Catholic Church cleansed by the Gospel.

>Name one good thing

- The idea that church service should be in the language of the natives is something that we had 400 years before our Catholic brothers.
- The idea that everyone (not just the priests) should receive full communion (bread AND wine)
- We got rid of indulgence trade
- Luther wanted Christians to understand what they were praying and believing, instead of just reciting it blindly.
- We put back the focus on God alone (instead of praying to saints so that they pray for us)

The reformation was a necessity that the Catholic Church back then, sadly, was not ready for.

>>18098885
>The idea that everyone (not just the priests) should receive full communion (bread AND wine)
Its hilarious how much flipflopping the catholic church has done over that, and even now its still not 100% sure its ok lol

>>18098885
>The idea that church service should be in the language of the natives is something that we had 400 years before our Catholic brothers.
Orthodoxy did that before

>The idea that everyone (not just the priests) should receive full communion (bread AND wine)
Orthodoxy did that before

>We got rid of indulgence trade
Orthodoxy did that before

>wanted Christians to understand what they were praying and believing, instead of just reciting it blindly.
Orthodoxy did that before

>We put back the focus on God alone (instead of praying to saints so that they pray for us)
ISLAM does this even better (no images at all)

>>18098905
Ceasaropapism is no better than papism.

>>18098998
but he talked about orthodoxy

>>18098905

>ISLAM does this even better (no images at all)
But they are not christian?

>Orthodoxy did that before
It would be cool if we had one church. I agree. Luther didn't want to split, he was excommunicated for his ideas. He always saw himself as a Catholic.

But if we talk about if the reformation was right, we need to also look at the great schism. It's generally stupid to think about what nit-picking details the Orthodox Church has split over before the reformation, like "Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father OR the Father and the Son?". (i know it's also about infallibility of councils etc. etc.) but is that really more important than being in communion with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ?

We don't say that we are the ONE TRUE church. That's where Protestantism (if and only if practiced correctly) shines as we can acknowledge that we might be wrong about some detail but still evangelize together and be transformed by the Holy Spirit.

But that is just the ideal. I see that in practice Orthodoxy probably works better most of the time as people are so easily mislead (as we can see with the rise of liberal theology in the West).

>>18099009
Orthodoxy is ceasaropapist in nature.

>>18099022
Then why could it exist for hundreds and hundreds of years without a ceasar, including today?

>>18096738
What is the magic word?

>>18095312 (OP)
It has done a large damage to smear Catholicism and Christianity as a whole

>>18099022
Maybe they read Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and were okay with it.

>>18095312 (OP)
indulgences
idoltry and polytheism
cathlickers pedophillia
many reasons to hate the Catholic church

>>18099070
where does it say honor the pope though?

>>18099087
If the βασιλεὺς decides there should be an ἀρχιερεὺς then there should be an ἀρχιερεὺς and you have to honor them, for the βασιλεὺς is the supreme authority and God's agent on earth.

>>18099070
Acts 5:29

>>18099095
good line to bring against papism DESU

>>18099095
Are you implying Peter contradicted himself?

>>18099112
1 Peter was probably written by Paul the false apostle or his followers

>>18099112
No.
Peter wrote the letter because other Christians were persecuted.
I think what he meant in 1 Peter 2:13-17 was that Christians should not be too openly radical in a foreign pagan culture so that they won't be killed immediately.
In 1 Peter 2:12 he also says: "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."
So Peter probably wanted Christians to baptize pagan cultures from inside, peacefully.

>>18099156
>>18099162
But Peter doesn't deny secular authority, he lets himself get flogged and rejoices that he suffered in God's name. How many Protestants would be willing to let the pope flog them unjustly? Not many probably.

>>18099175
Being flogged is not the same as being killed. Because if you're dead you cannot spread the word of God.

>But Peter doesn't deny secular authority
I mean, yes, how could he if he's feeling that authority physically?

>How many Protestants would be willing to let the pope flog them unjustly?
This is not a "How many Protestants" but a question that all confessions are confronted with in some way. Just look at what happened to the Eastern Orthodox Church in the USSR. Any devout Christian would find joy in some way for being persecuted as a consequence of being a Christian. But as a consequence not as something they generally look forward to (at least I hope so).

>>18099235
So Peter would've resisted being killed?

>>18099242
No one knows that.

There is this Quo Vadis legend that would imply that Peter should not resist but not because he would have rebelled against a human authority but because it would directly be against God's command.

My point is that if Christians generally don't advocate for life then wouldn't they be pretty close to the Devil who brings death and destruction in contrary to Christ who literally is the life?

Maybe it's not a simple no or yes. Paul had a similar struggle as he writes in Philippians 1:23-24:
"I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account."

>>18095312 (OP)
both non-Biblical social constructs, even "Christianity" which is not recognized as such in the Bible but the obvious answer to anyone who is not a buckbroken idiot is mass reading, just straight fundamental mass literacy.

>>18099162
>I think what he meant

wait so you reject the early saints and clergy
but bring in your own interpretations?
so thats what protestantism is about afterall

>>18099292
>My point is that if Christians generally don't advocate for life then wouldn't they be pretty close to the Devil who brings death and destruction in contrary to Christ who literally is the life?
I mean

>>18099317
In what way did I reject the early saints?

The early saints all agreed that one should not be unnecessarily radical, that one should not use violence or destroy pagan statues, for example. But one should be the better example to the pagans.

>>18099358
I was saying that life (as in life for Christ) is the negation of death and suicide which obviously are things that are not from God. I hope you don't argue with that.

I said "generally" because unless they accept death rather than deny their faith under persecution one should not kill himself but instead live and suffer for Christ.

Unnecessarily being provocative just to die is doing nothing for the Kingdom of God and is against scripture, what the early saints, Augustine and Aquinas taught.

>>18099454
Sorry to dash your hopes but Christianity is literally about God committing suicide

>>18099464
Brooo :(

>>18099464
>>18099479
And Christians should emulate Christ soooo

>>18098822
>Must be using different translations because my bible doesn't say anything about spending years bodily in heaven

That's the implication. If you get a glorified body but don't go back to earth right away, where do you go then?

>There is no such event anywhere in Revelation.

Where's the church mentioned after Revelations 3:22? Well it isn't, it's gone, but we do read a "come up hither" in Revelations 4:1 don't we?

>I'm guessing you're reading dispensationalism into the bible, which is a hermeneutical problem because it was made up by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and unheard of by anybody before then including the biblical authors.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth. " (2 Timothy 2:15)

>>18096730
The marriage was valid thoughbeit

Protestant countries traditionally had a much higher literacy rate thanks of the influence of people like Melanchthon.

>>18100045
>Melanchthon
nigga thats a transformer

>>18100052
His birth name is Philip Schwartzerdt, he just translated it to Greek, as was popular at the time. He also looked like a gnome.