Thread 18097848

Serbia was actually pretty big in 1914. Why did they need to start WWI?

>>18097848 (OP)
To be free from the Hapsburg yoke

>>18097848 (OP)
It was less about the land and more about liberating their brothers from foreign rule

>>18097848 (OP)
They wanted more land to steal

>>18097848 (OP)
>"It seems this is not enough for them."

>>18097848 (OP)
Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne.

Why do rightoids suddenly go all
>nationalist irredentism is bad actually
when it comes to WWI era Serbia but then the complete reverse when it comes to Yugoslav Wars era Serbia?

>>18098825
Because revisionist WWI-WW2 narratives are German-centric while revisionist Yugoslav Narratives are Serb-centric

>>18097848 (OP)
They didn’t actually. It was an ultra nationalist terrorist/revolutionary group that killed the archduke. Serbia even agreed to (most) of the utterly ridiculous demands of Austria-Hungary because they wanted to avoid war that badly. Some of the stuff they agreed to was just humiliating too, but they were being rational because they knew it was a Serb who killed the guy and they didn’t want a war. Well. Most of them. The ultra nationalists did.

>>18097848 (OP)
Was the terrorist organisation responsible for the assassination of Ferdinand a state operation?

>>18098871
It was founded by serving officers to do the dirty work of the government in Macedonia

>>18098852
Tell me one demand that was ridiculous.

Serbia had to refuse the demand to start an investigation because they knew it would be uncovered that the Serbian military brass was behind the assassination and then there would be war anyway and they couldn't play the victim anymore.

>>18097848 (OP)
Greed.

>>18099040
Having Austrian investigators in Serbia would be ludicrous. They were an already openly hostile nation to serbias existence.

Why would the Austrian investigators come to any conclusion that doesn’t happily coincide with justification to invade Serbia?

>>18097848 (OP)
They needed access to the Adriatic sea. That's why they got northern Macedonia. They could have had central Albania too but they had to give it up. because they got cucked by the great powers who wanted an Albanian state. So they focused to the Austrian coast

>>18100211
They had to give it back because the Albanians that defended shkoder and berat surrendered to Serbs and Greeks in exhange for a state as promised by the great powers.

>>18099411
>Having Austrian investigators in Serbia would be ludicrous.
Why?
What is ludicrous is that Serbia did absolutely nothing in the weeks following the murder. No investigation whatsoever, not a single person was arrested or even interviewed.

These were the days before Interpol, it was completely reasonable that Austria wanted to find and apprehend the culprits. Something that Serbia clearly did not want to happen due to their state agents being involved in the murder. They wanted to cover it up and play the victim.

>>18101116
Anon, it's well-known by everyone that the ultimatum list was made specifically to be unacceptable, to get an easy casus belli. Your kind of revisionism 100+ years later is laughable

>>18101131
>it's well-known by everyone
It's an age old meme by anglo historians that desperately needed to justify the war and paint themselves as the good guys.
It does serve as a reminder how brain dead people are that they just repeat whatever dreck they read without ever bothering to think clearly or analyze.

Just like the other anon mentioned, when Serbia was an irredentist, war mongering state in the 90's they were EVIL. But when they were the exact same thing in the 10's they were somehow a gud boy that dindu nuffin.

Tell me what would've happened had they accepted the ultimatum? Would their state have collapsed? Would the universe have exploded?

>>18101149
>On 9 July, Berchtold advised the Emperor that he would present Belgrade with an ultimatum containing demands that were designed to be rejected. This would ensure a war without the "odium of attacking Serbia without warning, put her in the wrong", and ensure that Britain and Romania would remain neutral.
>On 10 July, Berchtold told Tschirschky he would present Serbia with an ultimatum containing "unacceptable demands" as the best way of causing war, but "chief care" would be taken about how to present these "unacceptable demands"
>The German Ambassador reported that "Count Berchtold appeared to hope that Serbia would not agree to the Austro-Hungarian demands, as a mere diplomatic victory would put the country here again in a stagnant mood".
>Count Hoyos told a German diplomat "that the demands were really of such a nature that no nation that still possessed self-respect and dignity could possibly accept them".

>>18101168
Yes, there were some hawks in the Austrian government that wanted war. You still can't tell me what exactly in the ultimatum was so INSAANE that the Serbian state would collapse if they accepted it.

>>18101185
>some hawks
They were *all* hawks except Tisza

>>18097981
This is the root cause of everything that happened in the autumn of 1914 onwards, in fact.

>>18099040
As that anon, let me give you a couple of the really absurd ones. Number four was as follows.

Remove from the Serbian military and civil administration all officers and functionaries whose names the Austro-Hungarian government will provide.

They wanted control over any and all government appointments. That’s just silly. Number one was either a bit over the top or outright absurd if you view it as either or, and not both. Especially since there’s no definition of what any of these things really mean. Someone could write a fashion rag about how the monarch’s hair looked goofy and it could be seen to violate this.
Suppress all publications that "incite hatred and contempt of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy" and are "directed against its territorial integrity.”
Number nine is also a bit nutty in that saying ‘I don’t think this country is our friend’ might be enough to get them riled up.
Provide "explanations" to the Austro-Hungarian government regarding "Serbian officials" who have expressed themselves in interviews "in terms of hostility to the Austro-Hungarian Government".
Lastly there’s number four, which was what the other anon brought up, allowing Austria Hungary to just run their own police force inside Serbia for however long they felt like it, basically ending Serbia’s right to any level of self governance. So yah. The list included some reasonable demands like the suppression of the arms trade and the arrest of the involved parties.

>>18101214
My mistake, got the numbers wrong. It was number five that was for Serbia to accept foreign police as oversight for their whole society. Also number three was kinda nutty too.
Eliminate without delay from schoolbooks and public documents all "propaganda against Austria-Hungary". Which of course Austria Hungary would define as any reasonable summation of their history I’m sure.

slavs have a biological need to make everyone else miserable

>>18101214
You are writing such overblown horseshit that I'm not going to bother responding.
I will say that it was absurd that Serbia had government officials and newspapers openly calling for war and that they conducted no investigation by themselves.
Poor little fella that didn't do anything and was getting bullied.

>>18101254
Wut? Those are the demands listed. Also the demands don’t say ‘calling for war.’ They say a bunch of bullshit that can be summed up as ‘anything we tell you is forbidden.’ I’m glad you accept that giving a foreign state control over your government appointments though is irrational.

>>18099049
The story of the Obrenovic dynasty is one of the most absurd things I've ever read about.

>>18100440
Balkanoids are excellent at lying about their history. Is there even a single modern Balkan country that came into existence without interference from the Western powers and from an organic mass revolutionary movement instead?

Because the national ideas of the early 20th century were cancer, and even more cancerous in serbia. Basically the only country in europe that still today bases its foreign politics on crap writen in 1844. Hopefully eu and nato will grow balls and force serbia to change its politics or turn it into a shithole where no human beign can live. The way its going now is the second option (current sanctions on the oil company and schizo leading party)

>>18101257
nta, the ultimatum had to be a kind of punishment and humiliation to signal that Austria was still a great power. If the demands were too easy Austria would lose prestige for being weak and not worthy of their status.
So, the ultimatum had to be harsh enough to save Austria from the humiliation of the assassination and losing their great power status, the agitation of serbian nationalism couldn't wait for an answer any longer.
In theory the other great powers including the Entente recognized this need but they were in such deep rivalcy with the german alliance that they downplayed this dilemma and pretended it would be unreasonable to force a decision of the conflict

>>18101761
shalom!

>>18101214
>>18101228
You fail to realize just how bad the situation was, and you also exaggerate scope of the demands.
>1
Basically the entire Serbian press reacted to the assassination with glee, claiming that Franz Ferdinand was a tyrant who had it coming, but at the same time emphasizing that Serbia of course had absolutely nothing to do with it. Stop poisoning the well with false hypotheticals.
>3
Serbian schoolbooks taught children that Austria-Hungary is an oppressor of Slavs and that the empire should be partitioned.
>4
Alot of Serbian government officials stoked hatred towards Austria-Hungary, some of them were even involved in the plot. And the demand was only about removing those bad apples, not controlling future appointments.
>5
Austria-Hungary had requested that Serbia investigate the Serbian ties the assassins had which their own investigation had uncovered, the Serbian police "obliged" by quickly declaring that there were no such ties. Serbia was not a trustworthy partner, Austrian oversight was neccessary to ensure that they actually followed through, it wasn't about policing their entire fucking society.
>9
Irredentist remarks were very commonplace among Serbian officials, infact the fucking foreign ministry itslef had a great big map in their building of all the territories that still needed to be "liberated".

>>18101311
Macedonia and Romania (if you count it as Balkan).

>>18099040
>>18101116
>>18101149

Retard. You're the one being a revisionist.
Literally not a single historian has found any evidence that the Serb government controlled black hand, much less that it ordered the assassination.
You're the one arguing against 100 years of research. If we haven't found any evidence now, it's pretty much established they weren't going to find any then.

And invading Serbia based on that is like Britain invading the state of Ireland if the IRA assassination attempt on Thatcher had been successful.

Just shut the fuck up.

>>18102952
You're right, but it has been proven that the Serbian government KNEW about the Black Hands existence and that they were the ones behind the assassination, yet they refused to do anything about it.
It is comparable to the Taliban sheltering Al Qaeda.

>>18097848 (OP)
Arrogance. They failed to crack down in the Black Hand because they had irredentist ambitions. They were obviously anti-Habsburg. It’s not so true that the Black Hand was deeply intertwined with government or taking orders from them, but they failed to curtail them, and they could’ve allowed the Austrians to enter their territory after, you know, a terrorist organization they ignored killed their fucking emperor.

The fact of the matter is, they did just about everything to provoke the Austrians and arouse suspicion, which, unsurprisingly, made the Austrians suspicious and hostile. The Austrians could’ve absolutely conquered Serbia if it wasn’t for the chain reaction of all alliances being activated and a war being started. The Russians are just as much at fault as the Serbs for declaring war. The Serbs thought the Russians would help them humiliate the Austrians but instead they started a series of events that would destroy Europe.

Don’t get me wrong, anything could’ve started the war at that point, the war became inevitable in the 1800s, but the Serbs were the straw that broke the camel’s back.

>>18102956
No retard.
The parallels aren't even fucking close.
Talibans OPENLY sheltered al-Qaeda. The Austrians had no proof Serbia did such thing.
US ultimatum was for the Talibans to hand over Al-Qaeda, Austrian ultimatum was nowhere near that. It was so that Austrian authority could operate inside Serbia.
The Talibans outright refused any talks. Serbia tried to appease and negotiate but Austria refused to modify the terms to meet them half-way in order to avoid a war.

Again, every single historian has concluded that Austrian diplomacy was meant to provoke war rather than trying to solve it.
Ireland and IRA is a much better example because IRA most likely had low-level links of infiltration to the Irish government but UK couldn't prove their actions were deliberately guided by the Irish government and UK wouldn't have any authority to send an ultimatum to infringe on Irish sovereignty over their state because of IRA assassinations.

The Austrians were surprised over just how many demands the Serbs ultimately agreed to, but simply refused to compromise for a mutual agreement with the Serbs even as it came down to a single point of the list, which is quite absurd since the stakes if a global war was high, but the Austrians gambled that the Russians wouldn't intervene if Germany had their backs, that's why Austria was ultimately uninterested in actually negotiating and compromise with Serbia to avoid a war.

>>18102952
Princip wasn't even part of the black hand

>>18103025
>The Austrians had no proof Serbia did such thing.
>Serbia tried to appease and negotiate but Austria refused to modify the terms to meet them half-way in order to avoid a war.
>Again, every single historian has concluded that Austrian diplomacy was meant to provoke war rather than trying to solve it.
>The Austrians were surprised over just how many demands the Serbs ultimately agreed to, but simply refused to compromise for a mutual agreement with the Serbs even as it came down to a single point of the list, which is quite absurd
I’m not the guy you were replying to but this isn’t true. The Serbs intentionally proboked the Austrians with their belligerence in hopes they’d declare war and Russia would intervene and either collapse the Empire or at least free up a significant amount of land inhabited by the South Slavs that Serbia could annex. The one point the Serbs agreed to was the one that mattered the most and it was an intentional provocation to give the illusion of earnestness while actually provoking them with plausible deniability. The Austrians were fully justified in their demand of a full investigation and stationing troops in the country. I agree with you that it’s different than the Taliban sheltering al-Qaeda, but the Serbs did turn a blind eye to the black hand, like you said, a better comparison would be the IRA. They declined to allow an Austrian investigation because they were too afraid that it would reveal their guilt.

However, the Serbs MIGHT AS WELL have refused talks Taliban style, as they never had any intention of good faith negotiations or concessions. They did not want compromise. They wanted the illusion of compromise by agreeing to everything except the most important thing that would foil their ambitions for plausible deniability, because they knew if Austrians weren’t granted the one point they refused, they’d rather not make an agreement whatsoever.

>>18103025
>The Austrians had no proof Serbia did such thing.
Shows how much you know. The investigation had uncovered two names of Serbian nationals, Vojislav Tankosic and Milan Ciganovic, who had helped arm and train the would-be assassins in Serbia and smuggled them across the border. They knew that it was likely a larger conspiracy than that. When Austria-Hungary first requested that Serbia look into this Serbia responded by denying the very existence of these men and that the Sarajevo boys had any ties to Serbia whatsoever.
>It was so that Austrian authority could operate inside Serbia.
Only insofar as to ensure the rest of the demands were met, especially regarding the prosecution of the conspiracy.
>Again, every single historian has concluded that Austrian diplomacy was meant to provoke war rather than trying to solve it.
Read The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark. IIRC he didn't say that the Austrians expected the Serbs to accept the referendum, but he did portray the ultimatum as very reasonable, infact he made a point that the NATO ultimatum before the bombings in the 90s was harsher.
And he isn't just a historian, his book is one of the most well regarded books on the subject.
>The Austrians were surprised over just how many demands the Serbs ultimately agreed to
That's false, the Austrians called it a load of bullshit disguised as acceptance. Again, read Clark, or just the actual reply for that matter. If you did you'd find that on very few points did they give a straightforward "yes", instead it's obfuscating lawyertalk written in such a way that they avoid accepting the demands as intended while not technically rejecting them.

>>18103068
Truthnuke

>>18103036
No one has claimed he was. The Young Bosnians received their weapons and training from Black Hand operatives, who were officers in the Serbian army. That is what the Austrian investigation uncovered and it's not disputed by historians.
These terrorists were a clear security threat and expecting Austria to just take it on the chin and not react in any way to the assassination is insane. Serbia could've accepted the ultimatum to cool off the situation, but they did not because it would lead to a conflict within the state.
The Black Hand had murdered the earlier pro Austrian king of Serbia, so you can imagine how that would've gone.

>>18103068
I've read Clark and he doesn't even argue what you're arguing. He firmly asserts that Serbian government had no connection with black hand even if they had connections with officers, including border guards, ever since Apis murdered the Serbian king.
You're also omitting a crucial point in Clark's entire thesis you dumb fuck and that is that Austria initiated the conflict when they annexed Bosnia which was predominantly ethnic Serbian. It's funny because people like you always argue that everyone is acting in "bad faith" whenever you've decided you don't like them, and you're probably the same guy who asserts Hitler did nothing wrong when he tried to reverse ethnic Germans being annexed to other states, but here is the situation in reverse.
Austria annexing Bosnia was essentially the trigger of the balkan conflict because it also severely destabilized the balance of power in the region and revealed Austria uncompromising attitude. You're literally omitting that much of the Black Hand were Bosnian-Serb nationals.

It is true tho that Serbia was proud and nationalistic, and knew Russia was behind her, something Clark asserts, but so was Austria, and Austria reasoned the same with Germany against Russian pressure

But again, you comically only focus on facts that confirms your narrative. Clark puts a heavy emphasis on the Bosnian annexation and how Austrian politicians feared the empire was collapsing and wanted to reverse the decay and that's why they were eager for war with Serbia; to rally a divided empire against a united enemy.
Clark's ENTIRE thesis is that everyone's ambition played perfectly in symbiosis for the coming conflict, yet you managed to spin it like it's all Serbias fault. Moron.

>>18103217
He does say that the Serbian government had connections, and the fact that they had infiltrated alot of government posts IS a connection. And not just low-ranking posts, Apis himself was the head of military intelligence. He just does not say that the Serbian government was behind the Black Hands actions, but knowing and not preventing their actions is still culpability. And yes, they did have Bosnian nationals, but those nationals had been radicalized, trained, and armed in Serbia, and for obvious reasons the Black Hand wouldn't use a Serbian national for the actual operation.

Now you're getting an even more basic fact wrong than last time. The Bosnian Crisis was triggered by the annexation, but the annexation was just a legal change, removing the last vestige of Ottoman authority in a territory that had already been administered by Austria since the Berlin Conference 30 years earlier. And the real annexation was far from the only territorial change, or even the most major one (that would be the creation of Bulgaria), from that conference. Clark hardly even touches upon the conference as it was so long removed from the war. And the crisis that stemmed from the legal change in 1908 was one of several that basically changed fuck all other than antagonizing relations between the blocks that would end up fighting a world war. The way Clark portrays the crisis also doesn't put the Austrians in a bad light, it was the Russians who reneged on their deal that they would accept the annexation in return for Austrian approval of Russian access to the Bosphouros because the British blocked them from getting the latter.
The point that Clark actually emphasizes as the point when shit started to get out of hand is the Italo-Turkish War, closely followed by the First Balkan War, and the future Central Powers had no responsibility for that.

>>18103217
>>18103397
However, he also tells you that there was a period of calm and deescalation between the 2nd Balkan War and the July Crisis. The "complete symbiosis" truely only started in the July Crisis, everything that happened earlier laid the groundwork for it, and it wasn't all about ambition.

It's not just me who "spins" it this way, the man has literally received death threats from seething Serbs who hate that his book has largely opened up a more critical view of their role in the July Crisis. Honestly everything you said gives me the impression that you either have very poor memory of the book or you haven't even read it.
Or maybe you're even acting in bad faith, as I apparently always accuse people of doing. But I don't know what's inside your head, and you don't know what's inside mine. As for your other strawman, I believe Hitler was a disaster for Germany, Europe, and the world. Bosnia was only 44% Serbian though, not even a majority, and the other groups weren't all that enthusiastic about joining a Greater Serbia/Yugoslavia while the Sudetenland was fairly homogenous, both ethnically and their desire to leave Czechoslovakia. And Austria-Hungary wasn't a nation state that was inherently alienating to minorities whereas Czechoslovakia largely was.

They needed a coastline, every successful power/nation requires one. They still got cucked in the end when Montenegro voted to leave from Serbia, however Serbs should focused on the Albanians and slowly increase the Serbian population in the lands as a form of population control.

>>18103615
Serbs will never be a successful power even regionally at any time in the near future again, so they shouldn’t pursue a coastline. The should focus on recognizing Kosovo instead of living in the 1300s and defund and denounce all the politicians they’ve funded in Republika Srpska that use inflammatory and genocidal secessionist rhetoric that will destabilize all of Eastern and Central Europe

bump

>>18097856
You can see that their capital, Beograd, is just a few miles from the border. That must have made them feel insecure

>>18103624
Fuck off you NATO shitskin

>>18098871
They were Bosnian terrorists as well.

>>18101311
Siege of Shkoder. Garrison surrendered after 6 months and only because the great powers gave them a guarantee of an Albanian state. Battle of Lume, stupid Serbs didn’t have any lay of the land and invaded a dead end and lost miserably at that. Serboids love to lie. Greeks at Berat also won because of a similar guarantee although there’s not a lot of info on that battle. Albanians won a brief civil war a month before the Balkan war and were guaranteed autonomy by the Turks. Turks honestly could’ve won if they weren’t at war with Italy and their hoarding of troops out east.

>>18103615
>>18103624
Wrong, all Serbs should be deported from sanzak, Kosovo and Vranje. They are settled colonists and should go back. It’s Albanian clay. Serbs only won out of deceit and being Russia’s cum tissue>>18105268

>>18105200
>“Fuck off you NATO shitskin”

I was SUGGESTING we bomb Belgrade
I was SUGGESTING that we send American pilots in and blow up all the bridges on the Drina
I was SUGGESTING we take out his oil supplies
I was SUGGESTING very specific actions

>>18097848 (OP)
they got cheered by the russians who got cheered on by the french

>>18105286
Imagine being so brainrotten you take the side of dancing boy moslems.

>>18097852
They already were free but to ensure that the Habsburgs won't reclaim the power they had for the previous 7 centuries they needed to trigger the chain of events that made Russia their biggest ally as a communist country even now under Putin's strongman regime. Thomas the Slav was the first left-wing politician to ever exist and Marx ripped off his ideas just like the other Jewish religion that became Christianity did the same with ancient Greek philosophy. If not for Serbia then the descendants of Varangians would never want to genocide their German brothers the partition of Poland arranged by Catherine the Great was still quite recent and all her successors looked up to her as their role model the royal family executed by Lenin's thugs would've restored it's reputation and continued to rule with support from the vast majority of the population quite unlike the Soviet Union that was weakened after Stalin's death

>>18097848 (OP)
Servian desire to have a boot on their face
Same shit in the nineties

>>18105401
Google Thomas the Albanian slayer. Slavshits have always been our enemies since theyve always coveted our lands.

>>18097852
Where Serbs chimp out

>>18102952
>>18103025
>>18103217
>QUI???
Look at the beak on this lying jew. Look at how angry this jew is getting

>>18097848 (OP)
Serbia was a terrorist state at that time, like israel is today. It supported terrorist attacks all over the world, too.

>>18098825
Two different circumstances. First one, Serbia is starting wars with sovereign nations. Second one, Yugoslavia (Serbia didn’t exist) was exerting its own force in its own country.

>>18101131
He just debunked that in the post you replied to with this.

>>18101168
So a bunch of fake quotes from kikes? Is that all you got chaim?

>>18101228
You mean literal propagabda against Austria-Hungary? The Serbian government spread and promoted violent cartoons depicting slaughtering Austro-Hungarians. They taught this in school as well.

Serbia was evil.

>>18101311
They’re taught to lie by their Communist upbringing and education

>>18102927
>Macedonia
>organic mass revolutionary movement

>>18106459
>le kikes
I accept your concession

>>18102927
Nope, neither of those either. Macedonia in particular is a fake n gay country.

>>18101994
Serbia actually agreed to most of the demands weirdly enough. They really didn’t want war. Some of those demands though like letting Austria just have full independent police powers inside their borders just weren’t viable.
>>18102097
Yes, so Austria wanted complete and total oversight over Serbian society. Which would just make Serbia part of Austria Hungary in all but name. I’m not exaggerating the scope of the demands. That’s what the problem is. They wanted to control appointments, control the media, control the education system, deploy law enforcement independent of Serbia, and so on. Stuff like ending the arms trade and handing over the culprits? Very legitimate demands. Stuff like being able to dismiss officials at will? That just means Serbia would be run by Austria Hungary.

>>18105846
>our
Who is we? Go to Turkey with all the other zuttsluts, faggot.

>>18101311
Most of the Balkans gained independence after the Russo-Turkish war, lying shithead.

>>18106462
Mean cartoons? Really? Come on. They didn’t like Austria Hungary for obvious reasons. They still agreed to most of their demands. The trouble was the stuff which gave foreigners total oversight over their society. They were perfectly willing to clamp down on arms smuggling and hand over the perpetrators.

>>18106493
hmmm