Thread 18101444

Did the winter war leave any lasting impression on the Soviet or even modern Russian populace?

It’s always portrayed as this EPIC BTFO of the Red Army, but it seems like no one at the time in the USSR cared and in modern Russia the wars are scene as a victory

The USSR ultimately gained more territory than what their pre-war demands were, even though they suffered an embarrassing number of casualties to get there.

>>18101475
Winter war vs other wars is a good example of how his lacks sentience. Taking large number of causalties is inevitable in any major war. Troops are the lumpen population that all dies of meth so they are all going to die anyway. All the car accidents and other deaths are like 1 million American casualties every decade. WW2 level losses already occur in peacetime at slightly lower frequency and over longer period of time.
The fact a small amount of territory was gained is also expected because reality isn't a video game where you move units to squares. The political control of territory is related to bureaucracy and the presence of competing influence so a strongly established country like Finland is going to last while a nothing country like Poland will just disappear.
Hence the vastly larger apparent territorial gains in different wars really means nothing because those places were slowly subverted by communists over decades against weak institutions whereas any established country is impossible to conquer.
Wars are calories per capita below 2000. Wars only happen in nations that are about to die anyway and the large casualty accounts are unavoidable and not reflective of any results. You can take millions of losses doing nothing and then zero losses subverting territory you've already built influence in and are just walking through to plant a flag.
His is a retard board so from the perspective of the users here everything happens in hoi4 where you click and tell a unit to go somewhere and the color changes. In reality taking over a territory is more dependent on no opposing force being there. For example, Americans failed to capture munich. America lost WW2 and Germany changed sides voluntarily without being annexed and conquered.

>>18101515
No, retard. The Soviets lost because they charged like idiots into frozen forests with no proper winter equipment, lost a bunch of people and materiel because all good officers were purged, got stuck on the Mannerheim line for too long and when they finally broke through it Britain started threatening with action so Stalin had to make a good face and pretend he always wanted some shit piece of land near Leningrad to "protect" the city that got encircled during Barbarossa all the same. Also no Finnish worker uprising happened which they also gambled on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic

>>18101610
Finns illegaly immigrated to Soviet Union during depression and this was the start of hostile relations, after lenin died there was a period where the soviet's had no state to form a foreign policy and under Stalin Finland was ignored until soviet's began industrializing.
Finland already was a rich area of Russia so they had some motivation to exist and didn't fold immediately, and Russia sent everyone to die without caring about result.

>>18101616
>didn't fold immediately
What is "immediately" for you? Poland that fought for about the entirety of September or Denmark that folded in 6 hours?

>>18101623
But those weren't actually conquered, in Polands case there was no state to begin with and in Denmarks case they had an existing fascist party that took over the country internally.
Likewise France obviously collaborated and in no case did any of those nations actually get conquered in a video game sense. A country resisting occupation just becomes a shit hole and typical examples would be any nation with multiple foreign terrorist groups like Afghanistan, Somalia or Yemen.
It's up to the people there what side Jews tell them to support or what they think is supposed to win and physically there is nothing keeping an occupying force there. People have to feed Americans in germany and civilians have to provide everything.

>>18101629
>there was no state to begin with
You're tripping

>>18101634
Let's hear your insights on the strength of the interwar polish state.

If i remember correctly they noted that the KV tanks did much better in the war than the other ones so im sure they learned somethings from it

>>18101639
Like I said, it was a state that held up for a month despite being invaded by both the Germans and the Soviets, whose people went underground to fight against both countries, and which eventually outlived both the Nazis and the Commies. Saying it wasn't a real state is a pure cope invented by either a Nazi or a Commie to justify their invasions of Poland

>>18101444 (OP)
It was quickly overshadowed by German invasion.

You see, of the 25 million Soviet casualties, 8 million deaths, pretty much the entire soviet army had gotten entirely wiped out and rebuilt 2-3 times. So by the time you had Soviet marching on Berlin, very, very rarely would you see a soldier that had been fighting since 41, or even 42.

>>18101641
The finns used motte tactics and snuck up on tanks, jammed logs and then detonated charges or just left tank immobile. The KV was both used less and was a larger slower tank that is harder to affect.
There isn't any real reason the KV would be harder to disable though and the main counter would be to just not use tanks. Soviet's would have been much more effective if they had an air force or navy because finland lost there. Finland did claim some air to air kills but if soviet's had a effective air force they would have won, in the small part of the year with good weather.
Finland before Nazi aid really had no proper fighter aircraft and had the soviet's introduced the yak a year earlier it would win.
>>18101650
It kept running on inertia until Nazis reached Warsaw and installed a government, then it folded, then the west attempted to create a Polish resistance which was still effective in contesting the weak Nazi control. Nazis relied on partisans and collaboration and the one case they tried to destroy everything, in Warsaw, they could only sustain their forces for about a month and then left and completely ceased occupation.
Soviet's had subverted Poland and Ukraine continually since the black hundreds and other foil organizations and by WW2 had a lot of infrastructure.

>>18101653
So? The Polish state was, however weak politically or militarily, still a very much real thing

>>18101659
It wasn't. It was a dictatorship in fact just to delay and prevent any real bureaucracy forming. The various partisan groups like the black hundreds sat dormant between 1923 and the late thirties with minimal activity. In the late thirties the nkvd began assassinating polish officials and undermining the government further.
The membership of the different communist groups was partially drawn from the existing other factions that merged and disappeared as the communist party grew.
Nazis helped soviet's win by just destroying the remaining state and installing their own institutions that they didn't maintain. The leader of general government was captured by the western allies because he had already left and Nazis were barely present in Poland after Warsaw was destroyed.
Poland specifically never developed a state because whereas Russia was created to fight the ottomans, and the ottomans built up the balkan states, and Scandinavia had ancient institutions going back to Norse and Phoenicians, Polands only motive for statehood was the Mongol invasion which was not a major pressure in 1939.
States have to be invaded to form a state but Poland was invaded without intent to form a state and this is why it remained weak for a long time.

>>18101671
>Russia was created to fight the ottomans
You're insane

>>18101680
Peter was made by Britain to fight the ottomans. It was built up as a counter to Turks and before then was a Mongol vassal and barely governed.
Peter and heirs fought a series of wars against ottomans and eventually against England. Crimean war was by far most important event in history where Russia was prevented from taking over the world.
Russia voluntarily allowed itself to lose by accepting British demands and ceasing expansion, and over time this ending of expansion became Ukraine. Ukraine is a word for borderlands and is just whatever the current limit for Russian expansion is and not a real country. In that sense Russia was created to fight Ukraine.

>>18101444 (OP)
None, since Russia basicly got what it wanted.
A base in Finland and Finnish neutrality throughout the cold war.

>>18101610
> Russia got more lands
> This means Russia lost because SIX GORRILION RUSSIANS DIED
Sounds like NAFO cope, desu, I hear the same about Ukraine.

>>18101724
> Russia lost because SIX GORRILION RUSSIANS DIED
No, they lost because they didn't manage to take all of Finland

>>18101724
Russians simply don't value human lives the same way Westerners do

>>18101639
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

>>18101515
>strongly established country like Finland
Heres yr (you)

>>18101732
>No, they lost because they didn't manage to take all of Finland
Imaginary goal.
>>18101863
> SIX BAZILLION RUSSIAN DIED, TRUST MY MADE UP STATS!

>soviets won because they took some empty land that had been evacuated by the Finns
>over half a million casualties for land with no people

Was it really worth it?

>>18101990
>Imaginary goal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic

>>18101475
A Russian general famously said:
"We barely conquered enough land to bury our dead"

>>18101732
The USSR didn’t want all of Finland, there ultimate goal was a buffer zone by Leningrad (Karelia)

>>18102377
The Soviet’s had plans drawn up like this for every bordering nation

The CIA absolutely has plans for overthrowing the Canadian/mexican government and the US military has plans for the invasion of both but that doesn’t mean it would ever do it

>>18102477
>that doesn’t mean it would ever do it
Nigga, the Soviets *did* invade Finland, any plans they had were executed then and there

>>18102477
But the FDR did exist. Soviets proclaimed its existence and it had defected commie Finns staffing the administration.

>>18102471
They explicitly did want all of Finland as stated in the secret Molotov pact sections. They also set up a puppet government and it was called the Finnish Democratic Republic, not the Karelian Democratic Republic. They considered Helsinki the capital and talked about what they'd do "when" they arrived in Helsinki.

>>18102477
>The CIA absolutely has plans for overthrowing the Canadian/mexican government
The CIA didn't invade Canada and set up a government in Winnipeg called The United States of Canada.