Thread 18104185

There is an etymology commonly used in Hindutva circles, where it is argued that Indra will be a "bmac" deity, due to a loanword, from the bmac substratum. however, I have not found much basis for this claim other than Alexander Lubotsky. a quick search on the wiki reveals that there is not really a consensus on these claims.

there is a more plausible etymology for the character Indra's name, of PIE origin, Indra comes From PII *índras, being a conception as derivative of of the PIE *h3eyd-, meaning "to swell" or "to become strong." *(H)i-n-d-rá-s would mean "the strong" and underwent a secondary stress shift. This makes sense, since in the RV verses, indra receives an epithet related to "strong."
(Manfred Mayrhofer,
Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindoarischen)
https://archive.org/details/etymologischesworterbuchdesaltindoarischenmayrhoferewa11992rep_25_b

>>18104185 (OP)
And here is a translated version into English, again, using Google Lens as a tool. Better translations are welcome, but Professor Mayrhofer's dictionary is well-cited in academia, and we're talking about someone with some renown.

>>18104185 (OP)
Wait I thought that was just the actual etymology of the name Indra. It’s not?

I thought Hindutva people generally promote “reverse Aryan invasion” theory where they claim Aryans emeged FROM India and attacked Europe, I guess some still believe Aryans came from outside if they’re referencing BMAC?

>>18104185 (OP)
Indra comes from the etymology of indriyum or the physical sense, one who has ascended the slavery to sense is Indra, since he has drunk Soma since his childhood instead of breastmilk and has made him a powerful warrior. All of this is in the Vedas if one would only read it.

>>18104188
>>18104185 (OP)
The native peoples of Central Asia do not have their languages or even reconstructed mythologies, beyond some possible disputed substratum, However, there is no evidence that they worshipped Indra or sacrificed soma, suggesting that these deities and rituals were not native to the region.

The Proto-Indo-Aryans (Tazabagyab or Bishkent) It is more plausible to suggest that they acquired their most important religious ideas after separating from the Proto-Indo-Iranians. Elements such as fire worship, for example, are attested among archaeological sites in Fedorovo.

>>18104223
and I'm the OP, before people start impersonating me
>>18104217
baseless etymology
>>18104192
I didn't understand what you meant

>>18104227
>baseless etymology
This is literally imposed by the people practicing the religion, I dont think some german has more of an authority on the vedas, since he is forever arguing in favour of a ureihmat he will say anything to associate it with the german people.

Yet all the writings and details about their homes and the geography of it points to the Indus Valley and eastward...not westward as a text like that should often refer to a different homeland. Most of the translations during that time was also tainted by jesuit insertions and deliberate Eurocentric mis-translations.

>>18104223
interesting reading, by an author called Witzel, who although has some somewhat questionable statements at the very least, is a quoted author and not from any blog source.
>>18104230
It's not a real etymology and you weren't able to provide any source, furthermore, this picture isn't from an article or even would be. Useless at best and disingenuous at worst.

>>18104185 (OP)
Connecting Indra to a root like *h3eyd- with the addition of a nasal infix is formally plausible, but to make the etymology rigorous you should make semantic arguments. You've started by saying one of Indra's epithets has to do with strength. This is a good start.

It's already known that Indra is comparable to Thor. I don't think there's really any question on whether or not Indra has Indo-European themes. He undoubtedly does. I think a way to create more confidence in this etymology for Indra would be to find parallels in the gods of other Indo-European branches which refer to strength in a way similar to Indra.
>As long noted (e.g. West 2007: 347–348), the great serpents of Indic myth have close parallels in the Norse mythological serpent par excellence: the Miðgarðsormr ‘Midgard Serpent’, also known as Jǫrmungandr (of unclear meaning), a giant snake that lies at the bottom of the ocean. As Thor’s greatest adversary, the Midgard Serpent is the Norse counterpart to the Indic warrior-god Indra’s adversary Vr̥tra

>>18104230
I looked again, I think you have a point. We can reach a point, but let's look at other sources.

>>18104242
>I looked again
You are not me. Your desperate attempt at trolling is no longer funny and is irrelevant from here on out, I will just ignore you.

>>18104241
>but to make the etymology rigorous you should make semantic arguments
There is no formal linguistic primer for this issue, and I'm afraid I didn't understand your question correctly. The similarity with Thor is no stronger than with Zeus or other thunder gods. IE, Indra has characteristics of Zeus that are absent in Thor, because the entity suppressed other gods in Vedic mythology. The reasons for this can be explained later.

>>18104239
and I would like to point out here that we actually have evidence of incursions of steppe populations between places adjacent to the "BMAC", as I mentioned in another thread, in the case of Sappali Tepe, with clear steppe intrusion not only materially, but also genetically. This and other things in the IMAC show that the BMAC "influence", whatever it was, was at least bidirectional and not just on the BMAC side as some like to recite, and remembering that BMAC was not a unified unit. article of interest

At this point I don't think this is surprising to anyone, but it is interesting to note how there is good evidence that the Mittani were related to the Indo-Aryan migrations, preserving the names of the main RV deities, although it is known that at least the elite was IE, we know that they were in Hurrian superstratum, but that is a topic for another thread.

>>18104241
Lay low

>>18104239
I would like to read this article by Michel, could you send it to me?

>>18104271
Sure
Source:Heidelberg Asian Studies Publishing https://share.google/2P46dYSuXhb34JIQ7

This article has been well cited by other authors and we are dealing with a serious author, there are interesting things, but not so direct to the thread itself. But it is a good counterargument to Indra being entirely "bmac"

OP again
Warning to all: I'll have to leave the thread for now, so any monkey behavior aren't from me, but from the cynic who's been creating threads about IE denialism for the past few weeks. Stay tuned.

>>18104185 (OP)
Indra has no IE etymology because there are no correspondences in other branches, I refute you in every thread and your dirty tables of Aryan trash are false

>>18104185 (OP)
Why do you keep putting BMAC in quotes?
Are denying the Bactria-Margiana Archeological Complex exists?

I subscribe to the out of America theory. ANE cross the land bridge to North America and proceeded to find the nearest MacDonald's. After ordering Big Macs, they walked all the way back to Southern Central Asia where they started their own fastfood chains. This naturally caused advanced civilization to spring up in the area.

Aryans later passed through the region because of the smell of fries. It was their they learned the ways of the cheeseburger. They then went on to use this new technology to conquer India.

>>18104185 (OP)
Why don't you guys who want to prove Indra's Indo-Europeanness just say that they have PIE epithets?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/वृत्रहन्

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/शक्र#Sanskrit

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/मघवन्

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/पुरंदर#Sanskrit

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/vajrin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/वज्र

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/देव#Sanskrit

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/वृषन्

I'm not going to post everyone's etymology Wiki page, so check it out:

>Epithets

>Indra has many epithets in the Indian religions, notably Śakra (शक्र, powerful one)

>Vṛṣan (वृषन्, mighty)
>Vṛtrahan (वृत्रहन्, slayer of Vṛtra)
>Meghavāhana (मेघवाहन, he whose vehicle is cloud)
>Devarāja (देवराज, king of deities)
>Devendra (देवेन्द्र, the lord of deities)
>Surendra (सुरेन्द्र, chief of deities)
>Svargapati (स्वर्गपति, the lord of heaven)
>Śatakratu (शतक्रतु one who performs 100 sacrifices)
>Vajrapāṇī (वज्रपाणि, wielder of Vajra, i.e., thunderbolt)
>Vāsava (वासव, lord of Vasus)
>Purandara (पुरंदर, the breaker of forts)
>Kaushika (कौशिक, Vishvamitra was born as the embodiment of Indra)
>Shachin or Shachindra (शचीन, the consort of Shachi)
>Parjanya (पर्जन्य, Rain)

The reason they do not consider Indra a deity of fully Indo-European origin is the similarity of Vṛtrahan with Verethragna, the Soma Ritual being exclusive to Indo-Iranian religions and Parjanya (which is literally *Perkʷūnos) being a minor god along with his father Dyauspitr (fucking *Dyḗus ph2tḗr) in the Vedas.

>>18104679
>the Soma Ritual being exclusive to Indo-Iranian religions
Even this is doubtful. Is Indo-Iranian exclusivity the default now because Indians and Iranians will swear up and down water isn't wet and blow smoke until sincere discussion is drowned out by noise?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285499031_The_Vedic_Agni_and_Scandinavian_Fire_Rituals_A_Possible_Connection/fulltext/63dd4d7864fc8606381374c7/The-Vedic-Agni-and-Scandinavian-Fire-Rituals-A-Possible-Connection.pdf
>Some ceramic forms from the Scandinavian Bronze Age resemble those used for soma in the Vedic rituals. Certain types of pots found in Scandinavian Bronze Age contexts —in heaps of fire-cracked stones, in pits with probably ritual significance, and in more well-defined urn graves —were probably also specially manufactured for ritual purposes (cf. Carlsson 1995).

>>18104723
I know that in Norse Mythology there is the mead of poetry (Óðrörir/Kvasir). The god Kvasir is born from the mixing of the saliva of all the gods, Æsir and Vanir, making him the wisest being in existence. The dwarves kill him and mix his blood with honey, creating the mead of poetry (skáldskaparmjöðr). Whoever drinks this beverage receives divine inspiration, the power to compose sacred verses, speak with wisdom, and even perform almost magical feats like the Vedic Rishis. Odin steals the mead from the dwarves, transforming it into the medium through which he bestows poetry and wisdom upon humans. Whoever drinks this mead becomes a poet (skáld) or someone gifted with extraordinary eloquence.

The problem with this myth and the Vedic one is that Kvasir/Mead of Poetry is not sacrificed and the Skalds did not have the same level of importance in Norse society as the Rishis had in Vedic society. According to the hymns of the Rigveda, Soma was originally the exclusive property of the gods and only later brought to humans by a divine eagle. Having been stolen from the gods, it is sacrificed in the ritual fire, symbolizing the partial restitution of its divinity and honoring those who lost it, while allowing human Rishis to drink its essence and receive ecstasy and divine vision, thus maintaining the communion between mortal and divine.

>Likewise, Krause’s (1934a, 119) theory that the ‘holy sacrifice’ was Kvasir, whose blood was used to make the mead of poetry, cannot be correct, because there is no evidence that Kvasir was sacrificed. Since there are no known myths that connect heilagt tafn with either Baldr or Kvasir, the best explanation is that the phrase refers to a ‘holy sacrifice’ in connection with Baldr’s funeral. Unfortunately, there are almost no written accounts of sacrifices at heathen funerals, but there are many finds in mounds of animal skeletons that can be interpreted as sacrifices

>>18104808
>Most previous scholars have taken sylgs heilags tafns to mean ‘blood’, either of the sacrificed Baldr (Skj B), of something sacrificed to Óðinn (Hofmann 1984, 319) or of Kvasir (Krause 1934a, 119). But an interpretation of heilagt tafn as Baldr or Kvasir is not possible (see above). (c) Kock (NN §1891) offers an entirely different explanation of sylgr, which he connects with heilags tafns and takes to mean ‘guzzler, devourer’ (‘devourer of the holy sacrifice’) as a reference to the funeral pyre. However, sylgr is a noun denoting the action of the strong verb svelga ‘swallow, drink’, and it is not an agent noun as Kock translates it (cf. Hofmann 1984, 315, Krause 1934a, 117 and Turville-Petre 1976, 69). However one interprets the phrase sylgs heilags tafns, the question remains how the gen. sylgs ought to be understood. Finnur Jónsson (Skj B; LP: sylgr) takes it as an absolute gen. used adverbially, meaning ‘toward, in the direction of’ (cf. NS §141), and the present edn follows him. No attempt to conjoin sylgs heilags tafns and sigrunni has so far yielded a convincing explanation. Krause (1934a, 119-20) interprets sigrunni sylgs heilags tafns as a kenning for Óðinn, ‘victory-tree [WARRIOR] of the drink of the holy sacrifice [= Kvasir > POETRY > = Óðinn]’. This interpretation is contradicted by the fact that Kvasir cannot be the ‘holy sacrifice’ (see above). Likewise, Hofmann’s (1984, 319-20) attempt to solve the problem by emending sigrunni to sigrenni is unconvincing

One thing that bears a strong resemblance to the Vedic myth is that Odin transforms himself into an eagle to steal the Mead of Poetry.

>Chased by Suttungr, Odin spits the mead of poetry into several vessels. Some of it accidentally goes out the other end. Illustration by Jakob Sigurðsson, an 18th-century Icelandic artist

>>18104829
>The Gotlandic image stone Stora Hammars III is believed to depict Odin in the form of an eagle (note the eagle's beard), Gunnlöð holding the mead of poetry, and Suttungr

>He arrived by Gunnlöd, with whom he spent three nights. Thus he could have three draughts of mead. But with each draught he emptied a whole container. He then transformed into an eagle and flew away. When Suttungr discovered the theft, he too took the shape of an eagle and flew off in hot pursuit. When the Æsir saw Odin coming, they set out vessels in readiness to hold the mead and when, in the nick of time, the god arrived, he spat his loot into them. But Suttungr was so close to him that, in his fear and haste, the god let fall some of the precious liquid from his anus. Anybody could drink of this paltry and sullied portion, which was known as the "rhymester's share" ("skáldfífla hlutr"); but the greater portion of the mead of poetry (which had issued from his mouth) Odin gave to the gods and to those truly gifted in poetry

>>18104345
I'm not denying anything anymore. I actually challenge you to show me exactly where I did that. It's a challenge. BMAC wasn't a unified ethnolinguistic group; it was just a complex of Asian cities, if that doesn't seem too obvious. But it's gone now. There's no longer room to reduce everything to BMAC influence. Nice try, I think.
>>18104291
As previously presented, there is IE etymology and there are no convincing arguments that "bmac" worshipped Indra or even used soma>>18104185 (OP)
>>18104223
Can you present another source?

>>18104616
Thanks for the contribution, it made the thread have more answers, I appreciate it.

>>18104223
Another thing I didn't mention is the etymology of the drink Soma, which is again Indo-European. The word for soma is not a loanword from a non-Indo-Iranian language, but derived from the root 'su' - to press. It also has PIA *sáwHmas - to press out, extract, which again is semantically valid, since in the RV soma is made by pressing to prepare it, which makes sense. And we have a PIE root for these words (*sewh) and is present in several branches, such as Irish and even Germanic, Soma itself has no foreign roots

Also>>18104223
seem to think that soma is predominantly of IAMC/Steppe and not bmac.

The lack of a borrowed term suggests internal developments. Borrowed words generally indicate the adoption of external practices or technologies. This could be the case, as soma replaced *médʰu, an intoxicating sacrificial drink common among other descendants of Indo-European languages. In both cases, the act of sacrificing an intoxicating drink to gods or ancestors is a practice shared among Indo-Europeans.

The implication is that the Indo-Iranians did not adopt a foreign practice, but modified an existing one—innovations, so to speak—substituting one drink for another.

The Vedic soma rituals were abandoned, and later, ephedra, not native to southern India, was replaced by Cynanchum acidum.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/s%C3%A1wHmas
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/saw-
Sources:
Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindoarischen
The Indo-Aryan Inherited Lexicon

>>18104185 (OP)
It's not just Indra, the RigVeda has 383 non-Indo-European words found in BMAC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit#Language_of_the_Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex_(the_BMAC_substrate)
>Terms borrowed from an otherwise unknown substrate language, sometimes called the BMAC substrate, include those relating to cereal-growing and breadmaking (“bread”; “ploughshare”; “seed”; “sheaf”; “yeast”), waterworks (“canal”; “well”), architecture (“brick”; “house”; “pillar”; “wooden peg”), tools or weapons (“axe”; “club”), textiles and garments (“cloak”; “cloth”; “coarse garment”; “hem”; “needle”) and plants (“hemp”; “mustard”; “soma plant”). Lubotsky pointed out that the phonological and morphological similarity of 55 loanwords in Iranian and in Sanskrit indicate that both share a common substratum, or perhaps two dialects of the same substratum. He concludes that the BMAC language of the population of the towns of Central Asia (where Indo-Iranians must have arrived in the 2nd millennium BCE) and the language spoken in Punjab (see Harappan below) were intimately related. However, the prevailing interpretation is that Harappan is not related, and the 55 loanwords entered Proto-Indo-Iranian during its development in the Sintashta culture in distant contact with the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex, and then many more words with the same origin enriched Old Indic as it developed among pastoralists who integrated with and perhaps ruled over the declining BMAC

>Examples:

>BMAC *anću 'soma plant (ephedra)’ Skt. aṃśú-; Av. ąsu-

>BMAC *atʰr̥ Skt. átharvan 'priest', Av. āθrauuan-/aθaurun- 'id.', Pehlevi āsrōn; Toch. A atär, B etre 'hero'

>BMAC *bʰiš- 'to heal' Skt. bhiṣáj- m. 'physician'; LAv. bišaziia- 'to cure'

>>18104901
Untranslated version

Someone above responded to the creature about similarities between Scandinavian and Iranian rituals, still in relation to Soma, there is something interesting about the use of the sacrificial drink in Ireland that I found.
continues...

>>18104905
>BMAC *dr̥ća Skt. dūrśa- 'coarse garment'; Wakhi δirs 'goat or yak wool', Shughni δox̆c 'body hair; coarse cloth'

>BMAC *gandʰ/t- Skt. gandhá-; LAv. gaiṇti- 'odor'

>BMAC *gandʰ(a)rw- 'mythical beast' Skt. gandharvá-; LAv. gaṇdərəβa-

>BMAC *indra theonym Skt. Índra; LAv. Iṇdra daeva's name

>BMAC *išt(i) 'brick' Skt. íṣṭakā- f. (VS+); LAv. ištiia- n., OP išti- f., Pers. xešt; Toch. B iścem 'clay'

>BMAC *ǰaǰʰa/uka 'hedgehog' Skt. jáhakā; LAv. dužuka-, Bal. ǰaǰuk, Pers. žūža

>BMAC *jawījā 'canal, irrigation channel' Skt. yavīyā-; OP yauwiyā-, Pers. ju(y)

>BMAC *k/ćan- 'hemp' Skt. śaṇa; MP šan, Khot. kaṃha, Oss. gæn(æ)

>BMAC *majūkʰa 'wooden peg' Skt. mayūkha-; OP mayūxa- 'doorknob', Pers. mix 'peg, nail'

>BMAC *nagna Skt. nagnáhu- (AVP+) m. 'yeast'; Sogd. nɣny, Pashto naɣan, Pers. nān 'bread'

>BMAC *sćāga ~ sćaga 'billy-goat' Skt. chāga-; Oss. sæǧ(æ), Wakhi čəɣ 'kid'

>BMAC *sikatā 'sand, gravel' Skt. sikatā-; OP θikā 'sand', Khot. siyatā, Buddh. Sogd. šykth, Pashto šega/šiga

>BMAC *sinšap- 'mustard' Skt. sarṣapa; Khot. śśaśvāna, Parth. šyfš-d'n, Sodg. šywšp-δn, Pers. sipan-dān 'mustard seed'

>BMAC *(s)pʰāra 'ploughshare' Skt. phāla-; Pers. supār

>BMAC *sūčī 'needle' Skt. sūćī; LAv. sūkā-, MP sozan, Oss. sūʒīn ~ soʒīnæ

>BMAC *šwaipa 'tail' Skt. śépa-, Prākrit cheppā-; LAv. xšuuaēpā-

>BMAC *(H)uštra 'camel' Skt. úṣṭra-; Av. uštra-, Pers. šotor, Pashto wuš/wux

>>18104901
Untranslated version

Someone above responded to the creature about similarities between Scandinavian and Iranian rituals, still in relation to Soma, there is something interesting about the use of the sacrificial drink in Ireland that I found.
continues...

>>18104920
it has been implied that the soma mentioned in the Vedic texts is similar to poitín in fact.

It has been implied that the soma mentioned in the Vedic texts is similar to poitín. There was a custom involving throwing away the first cup of poteen (a distilled beverage) as an offering, followed by a specific prayer recited during the ritual, asking for health, prosperity, and protection from enemies, etc.

These types of drinking rituals are common among the IE branches.
Source:
Calvert Watkins, 'Is tre ḟír flathemon: marginalia to Audacht Morainn', Ériu, 30 (1979), pp. 181–198.

>>18104934
interesting, it is very similar

>>18104808
>the mead of poetry (skáldskaparmjöðr). Whoever drinks this beverage receives divine inspiration,
Yeah that's probably some sort of hallucinogenic beverage. I think it is possible to find parallels to soma in Europe. As pastoralists, it would not be surprising if Indo-Europeans encountered the hallucinogenic mushrooms that grow on cow dung. Did Aryans tell native Indians that cow dung was holy and special (because magic mushrooms grow in it)?

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=blfu2jHHtpwC&oi=fnd&pg=PP10

>>18104937
The cultural foundations were already established. As well as a broader IE etymology, each branch of descendants followed its own path. Which is natural, as we are from related but not identical peoples.

>>18104253
>but also genetically
Correct

>>18104934
there are other parallels, soma is definitely IE, just like indra. it's over, it's really over

>>18104980
I think it should be emphasized that Soma itself has an IE etymology, but has its own Iranian innovations. We probably won't find a soma cult per se in Europe, but as I said here>>18104901
it stems from a common inherited root present in several branches, the abstract act of sacrificing an intoxicating drink to gods or ancestors is a practice shared among IEs, Indo-Iranians modified an existing cultural heritage.

the BB culture is known essentially for the use of their cups, archaeologically since at least Yamnaya, we have evidence of the use of cups, and present in some tombs.

>>18104993
Yes, I know they are not the exact same thing or that the PIEs had Soma, but it is a drink from the steppes, it is just strange how Indra stole other domains

>>18104905
>BMAC *atʰr̥ Skt. átharvan 'priest', Av. āθrauuan-/aθaurun- 'id.', Pehlevi āsrōn; Toch. A atär, B etre 'hero'
The trouble with this stuff is it's also possible for the reverse to be true:
BMAC languages may attest to an Indo-European substrate. The limited Indo-European distribution of this one makes it ambiguous but átharvan is highly suspicious. The -van ending would normally be from the oblique stem of heteroclitic inflection. Heteroclitic inflection normally indicates a word is an Indo-European archaism so it's very unusual to see it here in a supposed loanword. The situation is still ambiguous here though.

>BMAC *bʰiš- 'to heal' Skt. bhiṣáj- m. 'physician'; LAv. bišaziia- 'to cure'
https://www.academia.edu/42615773/Vedic_bhi%E1%B9%A3%C3%A1j_healer_bhh_s_h_%C3%A9%C7%B5_the_one_who_leads_to_the_light_the_Indo_European_poetics_of_LIGHT_as_LIFE_and_the_mythology_of_the_A%C5%9Bvins
bhiṣáj is apparently an Indo-European compound word. I would personally take this as evidence that at least one Indo-European word exists in BMAC.

Are there more? Unclear, but there are reasons to go through these carefully and weigh the pros and cons of considering borrowing happening in either direction. You have to keep in mind that Indo-Aryans imposed their language to a large extent.

>>18104679
If you want some good info on the possible IRL botanical source of Soma along with its relation to Ancient Vedic and early Buddhist mythology and liturgy, check out the @OnParadiseEarth channel on YT.

He's an IRL Ph.D Botanist and very good amateur historian that has several high quality video essays on the topic. Well worth a watch.

>>18105011
>BMAC *bʰiš- 'to heal' Skt. bhiṣáj- m. 'physician'; LAv. bišaziia- 'to cure'
Also the RUKI rule is apparently on display in LAv. bišaziia-. Is that something we should expect in a BMAC language?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruki_sound_law
The RUKI sound law is old. It is at least a Balto-Slavic+Indo-Iranian phenomenon. I feel as if a linguist should notice these sort of things so it makes me wonder about the origin of this list of BMAC words. Wikipedia is like that though...

>>18105041
Scratch that. I misread something.

>>18104920
The ( >>18104808 >>18104829
>>18104834 ) posts are mine ( >>18104679 ), your Paulista retard. What I pointed out in my post is that the Mead of Poetry did not arise from a sacrifice and was not sacrificed like Soma, despite having the same effects as it. The libations the Norse performed are not the same thing, as they were simply symbolic liquid offerings, using beer, common mead, milk, or water, poured over altars and sacred stones to honor gods or spirits, without destroying or transforming the substance like a real sacrifice. Libations are not even exclusive to Indo-European cultures. In Ancient Egypt, wine and beer were poured over altars and statues of gods. In Mesopotamia, oil and beer were poured, always as symbolic offerings
on altars or divine statues to please the gods. The difference from Soma Ritual is that this one is actually sacrificed, its essence is delivered into the Ritual Fire, no altars, stones, statues or anything, and the Soma ingredient likely contained something flammable to keep the Yajna lit and not extinguish it. The other imporant difference is that the Soma Ritual was reserved only for Brahmins, while any ordinary worshipper in these other non-Indo-Iranian cultures could make libations to the gods.

Btw There was no fire sacrificer priest-sage class like the Brahmins in Europe. Of what little I know about Germanic paganism there were Skalds and female figures known as the Volva which were seers and shamans. Vedic religion had Brahmin, while the Persian Zoroastrians had the Magi firekeepers, but Skalds and Volvas did not take care of the sacred fire and the sacrifice to the gods in the place of the common people, again this is missing in Europe of a distinct fire sacrificer priest-sage class.

>>18104920 #
The ( >>18104808 >>18104829 >>18104834 ) posts are mine ( >>18104679 ), your Paulista retard. What I pointed out in my post is that the Mead of Poetry did not arise from a sacrifice and was not sacrificed like Soma, despite having the same effects as it. The libations the Norse performed are not the same thing, as they were simply symbolic liquid offerings, using beer, common mead, milk, or water, poured over altars and sacred stones to honor gods or spirits, without destroying or transforming the substance like a real sacrifice. Libations are not even exclusive to Indo-European cultures. In Ancient Egypt, wine and beer were poured over altars and statues of gods. In Mesopotamia, oil and beer were poured, always as symbolic offerings on altars or divine statues to please the gods. The difference from Soma Ritual is that this one is actually sacrificed, its essence is delivered into the Ritual Fire, no altars, stones, statues or anything, and the Soma ingredient likely contained something flammable to keep the Yajna lit and not extinguish it. The other imporant difference is that the Soma Ritual was reserved only for Brahmins, while any ordinary worshipper in these other non-Indo-Iranian cultures could make libations to the gods.

Btw There was no fire sacrificer priest-sage class like the Brahmins in Europe. Of what little I know about Germanic paganism there were Skalds and female figures known as the Volva which were seers and shamans. Vedic religion had Brahmin, while the Persian Zoroastrians had the Magi firekeepers, but Skalds and Volvas did not take care of the sacred fire and the sacrifice to the gods in the place of the common people, again this is missing in Europe of a distinct fire sacrificer priest-sage class.

Based
Ārya = Whites of Sintashta and Andronovo Cultures
Dasyu = Indus Valley Civilization
Pani = Central Asia Eneolithic/Oxus Civilization
Rākshasa = Ancient Ancestral South Indian

>>18105011
There is also the clear influence that Indo-Iranian peoples derived from Andronovo had on the communities of Central Asia, Sappali, for example, emerged from this influence.>>18104253

>>18105054
Castes developed much later in both but the figure of the fire sacrificer priest-sage is conspicuously absent in Ancient Greece (Kerykes were exclusive to the Eleusinian Mysteries, Mystery religions are absent in non-Greco-Roman religions in Europe, they did not have a monopoly on sacred fire/sacrifice, anyone who was a citizen could do it in their own house to the household deities, like the Lares in Rome, and they did not even sacrifice the liquid they probably drank in the rituals, as far as we know). Maybe the Celtic Druids are the closest analogy but virtually nothing is known about them.

Second the idea of Brahman is absent from Europe as well as the very Avestan religion. The Vedic religion is straightforward in that the cosmic wheel of reincarnation is bound by one principle of oneness and that is Brahman. It is a big difference in philosophical outlook, the European Indo-European branch of religion is pluralistic but the Vedic one is monist. Because all principles flow from one source and all reality as separation is ultimately ignorance, In the Avesta the line hardens between truth and lie (evil) and Zoroastrianism became dualist. This whole aspect however, if it even existed in Proto-Indo-European religion is entirely missing , and what exists instead is the world of only the true and vital. What of course remains similar are the deities and narrative themes Indra is Thor, Zeus etc. By the time of Mahabharata the whole religion drifts in a completely different direction. I feel like Dumezil was mistaken about a lot of assumptions he made especially concerning the Ancient Greek and Vedic religions.

To the anons who are trying to have a serious discussion, the evidence has already been presented, and there are already people impersonating others in the Thread, ad hominem and spamming, I propose that you ignore

>>18105011
Lmao, I just looked into this a bit more. I was assuming there were actual attested languages descending from this supposed *BMAC language. There are none. The list of alleged BMAC words is arrived at by cherry picking Indo-Iranian words that someone fancies to be substrate.

No, that's not good enough to debunk an Indo-European etymology for Indra. It's just a desperate smokescreen they hoped nobody would notice.

>>18105011
it is quite plausible that it is IE..
Mayrhofer relates this to Proto-Indo-European *bʰh2-s (“to speak”) Cheung did not categorically state that it was actually of non-IE origin, just left it open.
we do not know what language the "bmac" actually spoke, since we are not dealing with a unified group, but rather an amalgam of decentralized city-states, and there has been no success in reconstructing the "bmac" language since it is difficult to reconstruct a language only based on its possible substrate, it is like trying to reconstruct the Pelasgians only based on the possible pre-Greek words.

>>18105084
>we do not know what language the "bmac" actually spoke,
Yeah I didn't realize the BMAC language family actually has no attested descendants while writing that. I should have checked on it first. atharvan definitely looks Indo-European at this point.

>>18105084
>>18105084
>>18105011
and since there are many malicious people here, I am the OP
>It's just a desperate smokescreen they hoped nobody would notice.
This is exactly what I've been saying for a while now. BMAC is used as a kind of smokescreen for people offended by the Indo-European issue in Central Asia, but without the language even being reconstructed, this is flawed. The lists are, at the very least, open-ended. And the arguments for Indra or Soma being supposedly BMAC are quite flawed and without consensus in academia, as I've shown above. In fact, if there was any kind of "influence," it was extremely bidirectional, not unilateral as postulated here. Sappali is an example of this.

Spammer obliterated lmao

Armed with his bolt he wandered, shattering Dasyu forts… increase the Aryans’ glory, Indra! (Rig Veda 1.103)

You killed the dark-skinned fifty thousand, destroying forts. (4.16)

Horses bring him here… to drink his fill of Soma, the yellow-haired, iron-hearted Indra. (10.96)

>>18105031
The traditional plant with which Soma is identified is this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynanchum_acidum

We know that the ingredients of Soma include, in addition to plants: Milk (because of the importance of the Cow in Vedic society, Indra's wrath and their relationship with the Moon) and something flammable (so as not to extinguish the Ritual Fire, Agni-Surya/Fire/Sun and Soma-Chandra/Sacrifice/Moon be poetically the same thing, some inflammable liquids are also hallucinogenic).

>The lunar effect is an unproven correlation between specific stages of the roughly 29.5-day lunar cycle and behavior and physiological changes in living beings on Earth, including humans. The Moon has long been associated with insanity and irrationality; the words lunacy and lunatic are derived from the Latin name for the Moon, Luna. Philosophers Aristotle and Pliny the Elder argued that the full moon induced insanity in susceptible individuals, believing that the brain, which is mostly water, must be affected by the Moon and its power over the tides, but the Moon's gravity is too slight to affect any single person. Even today, people who believe in a lunar effect claim that admissions to psychiatric hospitals, traffic accidents, homicides or suicides increase during a full moon, but over 37 studies invalidate these claims. Lunar cycles have significant impacts on human culture but no solid evidence connects these cycles to human biology

>HYMN CXIX. Indra. 1. "This, even this was my resolve, to win a cow, to win a steed: Have I not drunk of Soma juice? Like violent gusts of wind the draughts that I have drunk have lifted me Have I not drunk of Soma juice? The draughts I drank have borne me up, as fleet-foot horses draw a car: Have I not drunk of Soma juice? The hymn hath reached me, like a cow who lows to meet her darling calf: Have I not drunk of Soma juice? As a wright bends a chariot-seat so round my heart I bend the hymn: Have I not drunk of Soma juice?"

>>18105102
>Dravidians
>IVC/Dasyu
Lol.

>Why do Wignats insist on identifying the Dasa/Dasyus with Indians when the RigVedic hymns clearly describe the Indus Valley Civilisation, most of which was in present-day Pakistan and had walled cities, castles, cattle, chariots, precious metals and same light skin even before the arrival of the Aryans, while the ancestors of the Indians lived in the far east within the subcontinent in regions covered by forests with small scattered agricultural villages without walled cities, castles, cattle, chariots, precious metals and same light skin before Indo-Aryans?

>The Dasyus lived in cities (R.V., i.53.8; i.103.3) and under kings the names of many of whom are mentioned. They possessed ‘accumulated wealth’ (R.V., viii.40.6) in the form of cows, horses and chariots (R.V., ii.15.4) which though kept in ‘hundred-gated cities’ (R.V., x.99.3), Indra seized and gave away to his worshippers, the Aryas (R.V., i.176.4). The Dasyus were wealthy (R.V., i.33.4) and owned property ‘in the plains and on the hills’ (R.V., x.69.6). They were ‘adorned with their array of gold and jewels’ (R.V., i.33.8). They owned many castles (R.V., i.33.13; viii.17.14). The Dasyu demons and the Arya gods alike lived in gold, silver and iron castles (SS.S., vi.23; A.V., v.28.9; R.V., ii.20.8). Indra overthrew for his worshipper, Divodasa, frequently mentioned in the hymns, a ‘hundred stone castles’ (R.V., iv.30.20) of the Dasyus. Agni, worshipped by the Arya, gleaming in behalf of him, tore and burnt the cities of the fireless Dasyus. (R.V., vii.5.3). Brihaspati broke the stone prisons in which they kept the cattle raided from the Aryas (R.V., iv.67.3). The Dasyus owned chariots and used them in war like the Aryas and had the same weapons as the Aryas (R.V., viii.24.27; iii.30.5; ii.15.4)

>>18105066
What do you think is similar between the historical circumstances behind the emergence of Avestan religion and the Brahmanic religion? What do you think differs between that and the pluralistic religions of the Indo Europeans? What made Christianity so appealing when it did come to the Romans?

I'll just state that the Avestan and Brahmanic religions coincided with either a revolution or the origin of a state within the region. These are the kinds of things that tend to usher in new religions and monotheistic ones have very obvious advantages for state ideology. Though it should be noted that a lot of the ideas on what "monotheism" are and aren't take a lot of the religious framing for granted. The saints just took the place of the gods in Catholicism, in Avestan religion the previous gods were reincorporated as Ahuras and the Spentas, and in Brahmanism it doesn't really need to be said what happened. It doesn't matter if they are not directly prayed to, that's in the realm of religious exegesis and I don't care about that. Anyway, I think that the framing where there's really one god and the rest are his retinue is a very common religious development when an empire emerges, where the state God of course takes the position of the lead God. But it is not necessary and just how hard it's committed to obviously depends.

>>18105149
What exactly is this picture supposed to prove? The post makes reference to "flat nosed aboriginals" and proceeds to show people who are not "flat nosed aboriginals".

Is the point here that you don't believe AASI descended ethnicities without prominent nose bridges existed? Native AASI Indians never existed?

>>18105130
>>18105134
>>18105137
>>18105144
>>18105149
The Kalash who are cherrypicked here to try and prove how Nordic the early Indo-Aryans were before they mixed with the Indians are descendants of them btw.

>Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat, Khaliq, et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%)

>A 2025 study by Shahid et al published in Nature shows the following Y haplogroup frequencies in Kalash - R2 (33%), G2a2 (19%), J2b2a (19%), J2a1 (8%), H1a1a (7%), L1c (6%), Q (6%), R1a (2%)

>Genetic analysis of Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) by Quintana-Murci, Chaix, et al. (2004) stated that "the western Eurasian presence in the Kalash population reaches a frequency of 100%" with the most prevalent mtDNA Haplogroups being U4 (34%), R0 (23%), U2e (16%), and J2 (9%). The study asserted that no East or South Asian lineages were detected and that the Kalash population is composed of maternal western Eurasian lineages (as the associated lineages are rare or absent in the surrounding populations). The authors concluded that a western Eurasian maternal origin for the Kalash is likely

>>18105167
Yahwehism didn't even necessarily deny the existence of other gods, it just established that all the others were peripheral (again, not uncommon). The strict monotheism is a retroactive fiction from the Second Temple Period which probably developed from a political need to distance themselves from the populations that were not exiled, as well as the exiled period eradicating the significance of the other gods within the diasporic population (though Book of Enoch shows that angels were also venerated). It's possible that this is an extremely unlikely development, but it was so cool that everyone aped it when it happened. Of course just from the various classes that existed at the time the general tendency would have been for different divine beings to be allocated to separate domains within the total social reproduction of the state. Islam, which is the most anal-retentive about Tawhid, still had the veneration of saints happened regardless of how angry Muhammad would have been about it. But these developments themselves are ideological ones and are actually not all that important.

>>18105169
The aboriginals of India, at least those who mixed with Iranians, were not flat-nosed like their Paniya cousins and did not even speak Dravidian languages like them.

>According to Arvind Sharma, Ambedkar noticed certain flaws in the Aryan invasion theory that were later acknowledged by western scholarship. For example, scholars now acknowledge anās in Rig Veda 5.29.10 refers to speech rather than the shape of the nose. Ambedkar anticipated this modern view by stating that there are two main understandings of the word Anasa. The first, by Max Müller, is read as a-nasa, and refers to having a flat nose, or no nose at all. Whereas, the second, by Sayanacharya, is read as an-asa, and refers to the lack of mouth, or the lack of good speech. Although Ambedkar acknowledges that Müller's version supports the belief that Dasyus and Aryans were of different races, he claims that there is a lack of evidence for this view, and expresses support for Sayanacharya's view

>Sarai Nahar Rai
>Age: Mesolithic Genetic
>Group: AASI
>Period: 10300 BP

>One of the oldest fossils found in South Asia. The individual was robust, exhibiting above average skull length (192mm), breadth (146mm), bizygomatic breadth (145mm), long mastoid process (31mm) and a porion-bregma height that falls within the average value (115mm). His cranial capacity was about 1450 cm3, while stature is estimated to be between 168-175cm

AASI fossils definitively prove that Mesolithic hunter gatherers in India were somewhat robust and had large cranial capacities for the time period. We can also examine their material culture; sure enough we see evidence of advanced microlithic technology which in many ways was equivalent to the later neolithic developments associated with farming. Some European hunter gatherers also created microlithic cultures, and they are similarly associated with higher cranial capacities.

>>18105368
Modern day Dravidians are largely descended from pic related (Paniya and Irula are genetic outliers in comparison to the AASI in most Indians) and also have large amounts of Iran_N ancestry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3223784/

Well, the moderators and anyone can actually see who the people are, or rather, the person in particular, who freely and spontaneously commits various off-topic acts for petty reasons. But as proven in this thread, both Indra and Soma are in fact IEs. With etymologies and supported by serious and well-cited authors.

>>18105610
bump

>>18105079
>>18105095
This has been known for years, Bmac was not an ethnolinguistic entity or anything like that. In fact, I don't believe there is a single inscription with the BMAC language, the same with IVC. It has not been deciphered, but it is probably related to Elamite, as the latest study has proven. The Dravidians speak a language related to IVC, which in turn was derived from a northern language
>>18104223
Indra has very significant parallels with Zeus, such as the question

>>18105626
I'm aware, and out of curiosity, an interesting study came out a few days ago about "Proto-Dravidian." The study postulated a unique ancestral component in the Koraga tribe, which obviously speaks Dravidian.

Although the dates in the article are quite bizarre, we now have a decent chronological fit for the origin of the Dravidian language. Basically, the Dravidian language groups branched off from the basal Middle Eastern component that gave rise to ancestry related to northern farmers.

And the Elamo-Dravidian theory is confirmed, along with the linguistic phylogeny of the Dravidian family.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.03.31.587466v1.full.pdf+html
>zeus
The most interesting parallel is in the Iliad:


>O Hero [Indra], both Aryan and Dasa enemies have you struck down like trees with well-shot lightning (Rig Veda 6.33)

>Ajax took a large rock… and hurled it at Hector… like a bolt from Father Zeus that fells an oak tree… Hector quickly fell to the dust (Iliad Book 14)

words related to thunder derive from *perkwu (oaks) or *per- ("to strike")
derive their name from the Proto Indo-European root *pérkʷus meaning “oak trees”.

>>18105665
all the old theories are being confirmed holy shit it's incredible

>>18105011
You lost OP

>>18105122
LOL! No. LOL!


We do NOT "know" what "Soma"/"Haoma" were at all. No, we do NOT.

We do know that it is not "milk of the poppy"(opium), or ephedra, or a mix of the two, or this either. After all, if we "knew", we would just make it, of course.

I won't even get into the pharmacology and botany of it all, but I can dunk on you for hours and hours using nothing, but Organic Chemistry that you don't know. ;)

>>18105766
Why do you keep talking to yourself when it's quite clear that all your flawed, distorted, and specious arguments have been proven wrong? What's left for you now is to provoke people with low-quality same-flag or have a schizophrenic persecution mania to save your ass? It's really sad. I know this topic goes beyond your irrelevant texts; the anon in question is NOT me. The fact that we have some opinions in common doesn't make us the same people...

>>18105766
Why do you keep talking to yourself when it's quite clear that all your flawed, distorted, and specious arguments have been proven wrong? What's left for you now is to provoke people with low-quality same-flag or have a schizophrenic persecution mania to save your ass? It's really sad. I know this topic goes beyond your irrelevant texts; this anon in question is NOT me. The fact that we have some opinions in common doesn't make us the same people... remembered;
Indra and soma are both IE

For some reason, I couldn't delete the duplicate post, just ignore it.

>>18105091
Hey you loser, I consulted my sources and I know that your ridiculous dasa=enemy table is false, do you want it refuted and destroyed??