Thread 18119123

So a few years ago there was sort of an explosion in religious conversions among a certain type of young people (chronically online, depressed, no sense of belonging, no well defined identity), and they tended to gravitate to traditionalism, I guess because they needed someone to be hard on them or just because they felt the "aesthetics" of it "went hard".

It was going really strong between like 2019 and 2024, and then I feel like it sort of fizzled out.

I know several people who had fallen pretty hard for the tradcath meme for instance, and while only one has actually come out and apostasized, I noticed they basically no longer attend mass (or like once every two months) and never discuss the topic of religion.

I guess it must be pretty difficult -if not humiliating- to publically go back on that sort of stuff, so I'm wondering how many people will actually do it.

Ok.

There are still plenty of LARPers, but most of them are choosing Orthodoxy now since they realized the Catholic Church isn't the same institution it was during the crusades.

>converted to orthodoxy because of youtube shorts (I was 18)
>realized after 4 years that it's just a larp, and maybe a bit of existential cope
>left discreetly
at least the larping got me into lifting and philosophy lul

It's just a vocal minority anyway. In any given religion, there are more people leaving (or people who stop caring) than converts.

Maybe chronically online Jews/trannies like you create enemies in your head where none exist and then hope they go away by coping.

>>18119238
So you don't think there was ever such a trend? Or do you just disagree that there are religious people?

>>18119123 (OP)
The real kicker is that the vast, VAST majority of Christians aren't actually Christians but identarians that have never been to church since they were children and have never actually read the Bible outside of a few verses. So-called "Nominal Christians" or "Cafeteria Christians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Christian
>Missionaries Patrick Johnstone and Jason Mandryk, estimate that 1.2 billion people are "nominal and non-practicing 'Christians'."[5]

>>18119248
I mean even apart from that, it's pretty obvious that to many people it's just about culture wars and keeping some weird distorted idea of "european civilization" alive.

>>18119123 (OP)
all -ists and -ians should die.

that is all.

>>18119123 (OP)
Why do you care?

>>18119248
No one is surprised at this.
Nigga, people in Africa go to church, then leave offerings to oagan ancestral altars or witches for curses and counter curses, and yet are still counted as Christians because they did their Sacraments prior and aren't excommunicated. And I reckon it was like that for most of the Years of Our Lord, all continents confounded.

>>18119394
That's because modern Christianity no longer has any real commandments, you can even pray to strange gods but as long as you believe Jesus died for you all is good and you are saved. Even the denominations that care about works are also suffering from the same thing with their indulgences and random priests forgiving everything without knowing the state of your heart to determine if you are actually looking for repentance or not. So because of this a Christian can behave outwardly the exact same way as a non-Christian and still be considered a Christian.

>>18119123 (OP)
It was a response to the government overreach of Covid 19. But it's not "fizzled out", and I'll tell you why. The easier it is to lie, the stronger Jesus Christ becomes. Interpret the irony of this however you chose, but A.I. and CGI are going to make all forms of news subjective. Propaganda will be everywhere, and truth will be impossible to determine objectively. When this happens, people will seek Jesus Christ.

>>18119123 (OP)
Yeah, I'm over it. Jews won the religious stuff, there's no point argueing it.

>>18119140
We can thank the Orthodox churches for caring for tens of thousands of mentally disabled men on our behalf.

>>18119123 (OP)
> guess it must be pretty difficult -if not humiliating- to publically go back on that sort of stuff
Yes, the cognitive dissonance required to believe in what some bronze age desert cultists made up while living in the modern age is simply too much to be sustainable.

Hitler's position on religion was ahead of his time.

>>18119123 (OP)
>making "it's the current year" argument in the current year.
Why do people flock to faith in 2020s? Because it is a metamodernist phenomenon. Post-ironic "new sincerity", half-rejection of postmodernism and deconstruction, "embracing the cringe", reconciliation of the concept of social constructs with the freedom to simply choose to believe and participate in a plausible/beneficial metanarative anyways.
>rejecting the rejection of all grand metanaratives as naked power grabs as ITSELF a nakedly power-grabbing metanarative
>God, faith, gender roles, patriotism, racialism, etc., are all just "social constructs?" Well I choose to live in a society that enforces these constructs.

>has everyone decided being trans is great yet
No

Surprisingly high quality answer for /his/: >>18119916

>>18119123 (OP)
>tradcath meme
Yeah this is a big one even in Orthodox circles. People seek identity, think of tradition and religion as the central aspects of the "old" identity and year to return. But like most returns, it tends to be disappointing if you were chasing some kind of glory.

In the end it's a pendulum swing. When I was growing up, "God is dead and religion is stupid" was the coolest thing you could say. Today it's the most boring millenial battle cry and zoomers are going for the other end. As an Orthodox, I love to see people come, but hate to see the approach they come with. Fuck it though, the Church is a hospital and we need curing.

>>18119588
>The easier it is to lie, the stronger Jesus Christ becomes.
>Interpret the irony of this however you chose
The way I choose to interpret it is that your religion is made up nonsense so it only becomes stronger when it's easier to lie and say that it's true.

>>18119937
It's not a return to tradition if you become an Orthotard because you guys don't mesh with the last 1,500 years of Western thought. You are unironically less western than Islam.

>>18119916
Yeah the whole movement is a capitulation to the very same paradigm that it claims to oppose by adopting a deeply insincere and ultimately faithless form of a religion that counts faith and truthfulness among its highest virtues.
Peak clown world.

>>18119979
Last 1500 years? You think a pre-schism Catholic author would be foreign to me? I've recently read Teresa of Avila and she was indistinguishable from Orthodox monastic writers, except slightly clearer in style. And that's 500 years back.
There are definitely ways in which the Eastern paradigm doesn't click with the Western, but on the other hand a key feature of the West is fragmentation so it's not like it makes much of a difference in the end. Even if I insisted that people wish to return to the specifically Western tradition and Western old identity (which I didn't), the Tradcath-Orthobro split matters less than one would expect.

>>18119927
>everybody who doesn't believe in my Jewish sky daddy is trans
Christcuck moment

>>18119289
>catholics, muslims and jews all dodging the bullet
based protestant destroyer, although i think you may have killed some innocent Daoists and Buddhists in the crossfire

>>18120042
Lutherans and Anglicans are out of shot as well though.

I've been going to an Orthodox church since the beginning of this year. While I didn't get converted by the internet, I was invited by a friend who was. I like it a lot, for the most part. Some of the young men recent converts/inquirers are incredibly cringey. Even moreso if they're protestants who had a "latin mass tradcath" phase before going Orthodox. Apparently the Orthodox church has a male surplus problem, where men now outnumber women 2-1 unlike every other church body where women outnumber men. There's no single women in their 20's in my church. The oldest non-widow single woman is 37, and the next youngest after her is 19, haha. I was told by the priest's wife if I want a gf I need to visit an Orthodox church 6 hours away where they have an overabundance of single women.

But yeah I think part of it is people are "rediscovering" the ancient faiths, especially after their endless, meaningless gooning sessions during covid lockdown. There's way more information available now than ever before about them, and internet apologetics/evangelism has been starting to pop off in general. Religion is more or less becoming the counter-culture, as someone previously mentioned. I even know a German guy who's raised atheist and is starting to go to an orthodox church. And honestly, I think the reason orthodoxy is doing so well is because of the increasingly liberalization of mainline protestantism, the schisms over women clergy, transgenderism, and gay marriage, and that more or less the 'facts and logic' side will almost always yield to Orthodoxy due to all of the evidence against papal supremacy in the first millennium coming to new light (along with most of these converts being protestants who already reject papal supremacy).

>>18119937
Thank you.
>>18120001
Yes, a lot of it is insincere LARPing, nostalgia, and the shallow performance of "belief as aesthetic." It is a mix between being a "poser" by wearing a band t-shirt without ever listening to more than 3 of their hits and joining a high school clique. except instead of 15 people in your school, the clique is 15 million strangers in your social media algorithmic bubble/echo-chamber, and on social media you can much more easily belong to different circles simultaneously or just be whatever is currently popular compared to irl.
That said, dismissing it all as a fake capitulation misses the deeper impulse behind it. For all its posturing, there is indeed something sincere struggling to emerge. After decades of deconstruction, people are rediscovering the need for these metanarratives, to allow meaning, purpose, and transcendence to exist again. The "trad" revival, even in its most memed form, reflects a generation realizing that pure skepticism and nihilism cannot feed the soul.
Metamodernism lives in that tension. when someone says, "Religion is a social construct," the reply is, "Fine. But I am choosing to give my life coherence, beauty, and moral direction anyways." Kierkegaard called it the leap of faith, the willingness to embrace meaning even when certainty is impossible. We can take that kierkegaardian leap of faith to be theist, to be Christian (or any religion), to be a particular denomination, and so on, because the answer of meaning in an atheistic universe, while not impossible, is merely unsatisfying. If we accept the postmodern premises (about truth, objectivity, etc.) then we are fully within our freedom and ability to simply demand satisfaction from reality.
So yes, a lot of people will grow out of the aesthetics, just as they grow out of any trend. (Matthew 13:1-9, they are the seeds in stony places.) But underneath the noisethere is a genuine spiritual hunger driving it.

>>18120008
What a retarded post. Orthodox doesn't have the same structure of original sin that the entirety of Latin Christianity has. You are just showing how Christianity is just an aesthetic to you and your TradCath friends and is a LARP.

>>18120219
"Structure of original sin"? What an odd phrasing. Let's see the different "structure"... Does the fall narrative differ? Do the ramifications? Does the way of salvation? Not really. You have probably seen a youtube video or two on the East-West difference where the development of the Original Sin doctrine was a natural point, but chances are very good that they weren't drawing on the "structure of original sin", whatever that means, but about the different approaches to sin itself which manifested in different articulation of doctrine. Sin as a sickness in the East vs sin as an offense in the West. The cool thing about that is that despite emphasizing different aspects, they are compatible frameworks.

Take it easy and have some humility.

>>18120243
Orthodox bishops, literally say, in statements of faith and communications that: everyone isn't guilty of original sin. All small o orthodox western Christianity believes that you are in fact guilty of original sin. It is that simple.

>>18120265
It's actually even simpler than that. You suffer inherited sicknesses even if you're not personally guilty of having them.
There is no disagreement that we do all carry the original sin. If this is the "structure" you were on about then you just misunderstood what "guilty" means.

>>18120274
The idea of us being personally guilty of original sin is a lynchpin of western thinking. Including secular thinking. To reject it is to cease to be western.

>>18119123 (OP)
On the contrary. I feel like it was very fringe in the late 2010's when I converted, while now at least half of my formerly agnostic normie friends have more conservative views and more positive feelings toward s religion.
Maybe it's just because I'm in my 30s and people are starting to form families, but the general vibe feels less "reddit atheist" than the 2010s.
Just look at X/twitter now and compare it to the late 2010s or even early 2020s. Christendom is on the rise and the jewish world order is on the way out. Keep kvetching.

>>18120287
If your West-hood depends on a fairly (historically and philosophically) tangential point about original sin then I'm starting to see why you're so insecure and defensive about the Western identity in general. No, Anon, we are all personally guilty of billions of things and whether eating a fruit is de jure one of them doesn't actually make that much of a difference. It does get disproportionate attention in pop history of East-West schism though so naturally people focus on it when they need to feel like the West has some special West-exclusive wisdom, as unwise and pointless as it is.

>>18120308
I think that not believing in original sin is why Orthodox churches and their civilizations care so little about the poor and others. I truly believe that Orthodox Christianity is inherently an evil world view and is appealing to wicked people because they refuse to admit their guilt inherited by knowing right from wrong. That the entire structure of Orthodox praxis, the lack of attention to charity, and the hyper individualistic concept of works just being prayer and law is a fundamental embodiment of this rejection of the truth of original sin. I think the reason why Poland, Croatia, the Baltics, and Czechs are vastly better off than the rest of the Slavs is because of this belief. The idea that we are inherently guilty of having tasted of the fruit of knowing good from evil and must atone, particularly by trying to reduce evil is fundamentally what defines the west.

>>18120324
Again, you're conflating different senses of "guilt". Orthos have a doctrine of original sin. They just don't think babies are to blame for stuff. If that's an evil tendency, I suppose I'll have to be just that.
>lack of attention to charity
Source?
>hyper individualistic concept of works just being prayer and law
I've heard this objection once, but never from Western Catholics that could actually cite or experience Orthodox praxis. It's a meme. The Orthodox praxis is beyond all these things.
>Baltics
Baltics are not slavs.
>Czechs
One of the most atheistic nations in the world is closer to Catholics than to Orthos? That's probably not the picture you aimed to paint.
>must atone, particularly by trying to reduce evil is fundamentally what defines the west
It defines Christendom in general. If you're trying to argue that one sin being added to the billions that you have accrued in your life makes all the difference, you'll have massive, massive issues. Because it's ultimately a cope. Your position isn't based on theological consistency or economic effects. It's based on you feeling insecure about the Western identity and you saw on youtube that the West is set apart in this one detail about the original sin, a 99% identical concept.

>>18120345
This idea includes atheists in the west. It underlies climate activism, veganism, and socialist movements. The fundamental concept is you are PERSONALLY GUILTY for the world not be Edenic, and an individual level. It is what fundamentally makes the west not the east. And Russia, isn't the west, nor is Serbia, or Greece. This goes beyond Christianity but reaches into the very concept of what Western thought is.

>>18120366
>are PERSONALLY GUILTY for the world not be Edenic
No. You are personally responsible. Not personally guilty. If guilt is the only sense of responsibility you have, then that's not on the West. That's on you. Go write in your diary how you righteously condemn obviously guilty babies and call it a day.

>>18120345
>One of the most atheistic nations in the world is closer to Catholics than to Orthos? That's probably not the picture you aimed to paint.
Catholicism is seen as local religion that most people stopped believing in while Orthodoxy is seen as an exotic eastern Slav ethnoreligion.
t. Czech

>>18120374
It might, but if the argument is that a niche detail about a specific Catholic doctrine is where the West-hood is really at then a country that only sentimentally relates to Catholicism cannot be representative, especially with so much anti-Catholic history that it literally has a Hussite faculty of theology.

>>18119289
I, too, hate Armenians

>>18120370
Ok, in the east that is true. But in Latin Christianity, including Lutheranism, Calvinism, Methodism, and Anglicanism you are in fact personally guilty. The difference lies in what exactly is to be done about that, and to a lesser extent why. Original sin is to the Latin west what reincarnation is to the Buddhist and Hindu east.

>>18120397
Contemporary Hussitism is a meme. The Czechoslovak Hussite church was more of a nationalist project than anything else and mostly died with communism. The Hussite theological faculty isn't actually Hussite.

>>18120374
>>18120432
You would agree that the western tradition of Original Sin, as in personal guilt for the lack of us living in an Edenic state, underlies your local version left wing atheistic movements right? Like we know good from evil and are somehow fallen and need to make amends somehow, even if it means climate, or transrights, or migrants/racism, or whatever?

>>18120429
What do you want to bet that if I ask 10 random Polish Catholics if they are personally guilty for Adam eating the fruit, they will say no?
>The difference lies in what exactly is to be done about that
So no difference, since implications of responsibility are the same regardless of guilt.

>>18120432
It produces dozens of hussite theology graduates every year.

>>18120445
I don't understand your post. If we asked 12 catholic Poles they would 100% all respond that they believe in original sin, thought they might not actually truly believe in it when fully examined. If we asked 12 atheist Poles if they would all say they didn't but if they were some kind of activist they would very likely believe in it if fully examined.

>>18120455
Believing in original sin wasn't the goalpost. Thinking you're personally responsible for Adam eating the apple is the goalpost and you spent a lot of effort assuring me Westerners are Western precisely because of this detail. So how much do you want to bet Catholic Poles would say they aren't to blame? Scratch that, how many Polish Catholics would point to their baby and say "little Wojczech is to blame for Adam's action"? 1-10, tell me.

>>18120462
Depends on how much catechism they had received? How about left wing Poles and the Polish baby is being accused of Racism?

>>18120445
>It produces dozens of hussite theology graduates every year.
That's nonsense. The faculty produces ~100 graduates a year and only a tiny fraction of those study Hussite theology. Most study pedagogy, social work or philosophy.
t. know people who studied there

>>18120465
Right, so it doesn't depend on how Western they are. And it's not a key component of feeling responsible for the world. QED. Guilt for the original sin is a tangential detail that you only emphasize because you need to define the West against the East no matter how small the difference is.
>Polish baby is being accused of Racism?
Approximately 0% chance of this happening, Anon. Poles, Czechs and Slovaks are incredibly based. Too based to think responsibility is based on guilt.

>Hey Google is Russia western?
Reeeeeeee Russophobia AI!!!!

>>18120481
I mean they are slavs who lived under Russian rule for the last two centuries, so I don't really expect them to be entirely western. But Poland does have lefties who truly believe all whites are guilty of being white. Your eastern mind just can't understand the western mind. That's why turning to EO isn't returning to tradition, it is simply a rejection of the west, no different from becoming a Buddhist.

>>18120493
I see. Poland, the ultra-Catholic Western country, naturally lacks the absolutely key Catholic-Western premises. Of course.

>>18120516
Well it's on the fringe and was under Russian rule for centuries. An example of Western Original sin mindset would be Greta.

>>18120527
>Russian rule
It was a satellite for 40 years. If that's enough time and presure to erase the key Western premise, then I don't know what to tell you. You must really hate the West to portray it in such an incredibly fragile way.

>>18120535
If Eastern Orthodoxy was Western why is it called "Eastern" Orthodoxy?

>>18120540
Ask someone who said it's Western. If Catholic (meaning universal) Christianity is Western, why is it called "Catholic" Christianity? lol

>>18120554
Because the RCC aspires to be the only version of Christianity in the whole world under a pope absolute monarch. It's weird but it's why they call themselves that. Western Christianity includes Protestants, which is why I am using it.>l Original sin is extremely important to Protestants, particularly Calvinists.

>>18120565
So it's not western then. Which means your link between a Catholic variation of doctrine details and the entirety of Western identity is a cope.

>>18120574
Augustine of Hippo as a Philosopher, particularly his doctrine of original sin is pretty much the point where the Occident splits from the Orient. Sartre is a great example of a throughly atheistic western philosopher who is fundamentally shaped by this.

>>18120589
Which we know is false because millions of Westerners achieve responsibility without guilt and millions of Western Christians don't feel like their babies should be blamed for Adam's sin.
You're just re-stating the thing you failed to establish. Honest advice, scratch this entire deal and re-thing what defines the West. The picture you're painting right now is a repressed, fragile baby-hating culture that barely realizes itself.

>>18120595
Maybe the problem with the west is it has become too similar to Russia. A return to tradition would mean actively persecuting Orthodox Christians and people who deny personal guilt for Original Sin. A traditional west would not allow you to speak. Maybe they are correct. Maybe views like yours are the corrosive acid that is ruining the west. Fair point.

>>18120608
>actively persecuting .... people who deny personal guilt for Original Sin
So persecuting Westerners themselves over an Algerian saint's idea. Again - you see the West as represed and fragile.
Couldn't be me. I love my culture.

>>18120619
If you love your culture so much why are you posting on a Western website in a Western language? I am sure the Russian military would be happy to have your help.

>>18120595
>The picture you're painting right now is a repressed, fragile baby-hating culture that barely realizes itself
Are you describing 2025 America or 1025 France?

>>18120626
Because I'm secure about my culture. The idea that I should avoid foreign websites and languages didn't even ever cross my mind. I hope to never be that insecure.

Trying to make people feel guilty for something they didn't do or at least have no memory of doing seems more like irrational mindfuckery than a good foundation for a society...
t. westerner

>>18120633
Neither, I'm re-iterating what the other anon is telling me about the West and none of it is pretty. I have coincidentally much better opinion of the West than he does, it seems.

>>18120634
Ok.
>>18120636
Yeah but it underlies western culture, particularly left wing beliefs. Because this isn't /pol/ West ≠ good, the West is simply itself. The importance of personal guilt is the idea that we are inherently guilty of the perhaps abstract sin of knowing good from evil and thus are required to actively try atone for it somehow. The question of how exactly this is to be accomplished, in the sense of how we as beings with agency to understand good vs bad and to actively work towards good and away from bad is a fundamental question of Western thought. The answer has ranged from the Calvinist idea that we have absolutely no personal ability to do so, to various other middle perspectives (think Hobbes) to enlightenment ideas of achieving it with pure reason.

It didn't die out. They just stopped pretending that it wasn't just a fascist movement masquerading as an honest return to authentic Biblical ethics. Now that the fat retarded adulterous pedo narcissist is back in power, there's no need to pretend.

>>18120639
Point being hating babies because original sin is like the most quintessentially Western medieval idea possible. It's part of why the middle ages are inherently kind of hilarious.

>>18120662
>guilt is ... required to actively try atone
Exactly false.

>>18120673
Explain.

>>18120672
Agreed. The pendulum has swung around in many different ways during the middle ages - body hatred, baby blaming, alchemy... none of which define the West at all. The other Anon has probably vaguely heard of the guilt culture vs shame culture split and thinks that a niche Catholic theological detail is at the core of it.

>>18120676
It was already explained in this thread. There exist denominations, such as EO, where you are to atone with God from the original sin despite carrying no guilt for it. Guilt is a meaningless emotional insert.

>>18120680
Original Sin is the fundamental detail of western thought. You just don't like that because you don't want to take personally responsibility for the world being bad because you are a 4chan user. You can keep denying truth but it's still true in the history of western philosophy.
>>18120684
EO isn't western. Buddhism, Islam and Hinduism also don't have this concept. Again West ≠ correct/good. West = Western = itself. Your views don't have to be Western to be right. But they have to be Western to be Western.

>>18120692
>Original Sin is the fundamental detail of western thought.
Correct. The guilt isn't.
> you don't want to take personally responsibility
I take responsibility without having to feel guilt.
>EO isn't western
Nobody cares.
>[your views] have to be Western to be Western.
So the guilt element of Original Sin, proposed by an Algerian saint.... doesn't count?

>>18120696
Are we talking about folk beliefs or philosophy here? I am talking about Latin/Western thought as opposed to the thought of the Greek(Slavic)/East. It's just different because this concept. But if it doesn't have Original Sin as personal guilt it isn't really traditionally Western anymore. It is a new form of thought. So any attempt to return to a western tradition requires this fundamental pillar, which is why Eastern Christianity cannot be a return to a Western tradition, because it isn't western tradition on a fundamental level.
>>18120701
I really have a hard time believing you aren't same fagging. But the personal guilt is a fundamental western concept. It's now something many people reject, but that makes them less "Western" in the traditional sense, not the Idea itself less western. It is like how Latin eventually became less and less like Classical latin until it became the Romance languages. America/Europe isn't the west of the middle ages, but the west of the middle ages is defined by itself, not the present Europe/America.

>>18120714
We are talking about guilt being integral to the culture. There is a lot of social antropological research about this. And it shows that the West cannot really be defined this way.
>if it doesn't have Original Sin as personal guilt it isn't really traditionally Western anymore
traditionally *Algerian
> any attempt to return to a western tradition requires this fundamental pillar
*Algerian tradition that the West tangentially participated in
>Eastern Christianity cannot be a return to a Western tradition
Nobody claimed it is.
>But the personal guilt is a fundamental western concept
*Algerian concept

Your views have to be Western to be Western.

>>18120720
Algeria was in the Latin West then. He wrote in Latin, so his works were read all over the Latin-West. Keep in mind that even Newton's Principia was written in Latin as that was still how you communicated with others in the West. You just don't like this because your highly specific form of /pol/ style romantic understanding of what the "West" is without understanding that the "West" at its core is the civilization that emerged during the collapse of the Latin Western roman empire and defined by Medieval latin Christendom. It is imagining unpainted white Greek statues, but it isn't those statues painted as they actually were in Classical Greece.

>>18120739
>5th century Africa is more Western than 21st century Poland
Ah my bad, I thought by "western" you mean "of the West".

>>18120746
71% of Poles identify as Roman Catholic. Original Sin is a Dogma of that belief system. I am sure they all believe in it, or would if told about it by their priests. Keep in mind something like 1/3 of polled Christians don't believe Jesus is God.

>>18120754
>Original Sin is a Dogma of that belief system
Not the guilt. Paragraph 405 of the Catholic Catechism says:
“Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.”

You're describing 5th century Africa. Not the West.

>>18120766
You are literally Eastern Orthodox.

>>18120768
Catechism touched a nerve, I see.

>>18120766
>tradcath uses post Vatican II definition of Original Sin that is specifically one of the reasons people were mad about Vatican II.
Absolutely fucking dead.

>>18120780
You just proved the point in >>18120720
>>*Algerian tradition that the West tangentially participated in
The guilt aspect of original sin entered the West from Africa and disappeared as smoothly as it entered.

>>18120779
Did you read the whole entry? It describes my exact point just omits the word "guilt" despite citing Aquinas where he specifically describes my exact position.

>>18119123 (OP)
Tick tock.

>>18120787
So are you a pro-Vatican II tradcath or a Western member of Eastern Orthodoxy?

>>18120788
>>18120780
Guys make up your mind, did this definition change anything or not. And if it didn't, am I to understand that the Westest of the Western Westerners carry guilt without carrying fault? Oof...

>>18120792
I have no opinion about Vatican II at all. I just mock the obviously copeful idea of guilty babies is the core of Western identity.

>>18120794
Summa answers this question and catechism cites the Summa. Guilt is inherited.

I’m as atheist as the next guy but why do so many people insist Christian revival is a larp? You wouldn’t call some generic white guy who adopted Islam or Buddhism a larper

>>18120796
Guilt "without fault". So the West is defined by contradictive African ideas that started vanishing long ago.
It's over, Anon.

>>18120796
>>18120796
>cites the Summa. Guilt is inherite
>>>“Original sin is not the sin of this person as committed by him, but as contracted by origin.” (ST I–II, 81:1)

>>18120797
>You wouldn’t call some generic white guy who adopted Islam or Buddhism a larper
I absolutely would. Are you stupid?

>>18120812
Are you implying white people cannot be genuinely religious or spiritual?

>>18120818
>Are you implying white people cannot be genuinely religious or spiritual?
No, I am directly stating that white converts to eastern religions are LARPers.

>>18120554
>>18120565
Hmm sounds kinda like why Roman Catholics call themselves "Catholic" and Eastern Orthodox call themselves "Orthodox" and don't want to be referred to as Roman or Eastern

>>18120821
And this would include eastern religions like Eastern Orthodoxy correct?

>>18120871
If they live west of Belarus, correct.

>>18119916
This is just a long winded way of saying it's a cope/a larp/a mixture of both though.

Daily reminder that the only cogent way of understanding "original sin" is something along the lines of plotinian tolma, that is, the "imperfection" that is a necessary condition of there being an embodied condition at all.

Even early christians had no problem defending extratemporal fall, and saying that man fell the moment he was created.

The notion that there was a discrete, specific, intra-historical sin (and, conversely, that there was ever a blissful yet embodied human condition) can only be entertained through a heroic suspension of philosophical intelligence.

>>18119123 (OP)
No, it's just now peaking. That's the counter-culture to mainstream lag time.

>>18119123 (OP)
Kek it has not died out at all, touch some grass will you?

With 2 of the so-called "four horsemen of the apocalypse" of new atheism embracing christianity, one of them converting while the other larps to fight islam, new atheism's support is eroding. I've listened to multiple bishops speak on both the cath and ortho sides that the ultimate enemy isn't atheism, but rather the current economic system where going to church once a week or saying a prayer once a day is too time-consuming for most. The worship of money is a bigger evil than the denial of God, or so they say.

Many are disillusioned and seek religion for comfort even if they can't go to church: in the west this takes the form of christian revival, specifically traditional christianity in cath and ortho churches. Secular humanism's premise that humans can and should create meaning and purposeful lives has gone awry in today's age where it is easier to be a nihilist doomer due to how fucked up and "running on hopes and dreams" the world is. Christianity's decline has plateaued, and may even rise.

>>18121198
>Catholicism and Orthodoxy where you don't actually go to Church or take any sacraments
Clown world.

>>18121198
>Richard Dawkins Submits to Canterbury.
She won.

>>18121292
More like not being able to when boss decides to give you extra work to do in the weekend and there’s industry layoffs on the horizon so you don’t have a choice but try to save face, keep family fed and bills paid. Many are like this and end up going to confessional for missed Sundays.

>>18121393
>cucked at work
>cucked spiritually
But are they cucked at home?

>>18121395
Maybe, but they tend to practice chastity anyway.

>>18121400
Kek

>>18119123 (OP)
the larping was never real in the first place

I hope it's gone for good because they were even worse that the 00s atheists. At least the fedora tippers were genuine in what they said and believed.

>>18121454
This is such a stupid meme I can't help but laugh at how bad it is

>>18121603
this

I remember them shitting up /lit/ with dozens of christcuck and other religious threads.

>>18119123 (OP)
Christianity has been dead since the 90s. Only now is it coming back with the Gen Z Revival. And that's a good thing.

>>18119959
Hubris leads to nemesis.
What we choose, is made, and lifted up, but you do sense it, so it is not "nonsense". But why do you call it mine? What makes you think that I own the religion?

>>18120797
You don’t see orientalist larpers around these days, but they certainly were a thing in the past. People like Goethe, Schooenhauer, and Allen Ginsberg are examples.

>>18119123 (OP)
Lmao keep coping jews. You have lost your grasp on culture. Your soft power is gone.

>>18121606
It is extremely accurate, and you know it. Your rebellion won’t be worth the price you pay in Hell.

>>18120028
>>18119123 (OP)
>>18120294
No one fucking 'believes' in the sky daddy or muh Jesus. Christianity and to what extent you 'follow' it is an ideological position. If you're a conservative on culture, odds are, you identify the old Christian values to some extent, but following Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus and hasn't had anything to do with him since at least the 16-17th Century, perhaps earlier. Christianity is a tool for certain political ideologies.

>>18121603
>>18121770
I genuinely am Anglican and I genuinely love my soon to be Archbishop.

>>18122295
Hegel was right about everything. The spirit of history is real and progresses forwards towards the absolute and never backwards. It just isn't clear wtf the absolute is.

>>18122286
ok jew

>>18119123 (OP)
Religion isn't really a fad nor is atheism. Religion is a personal thing which has nothing to do with trends.

>>18120797
I would though
In fact I would be instinctively more inclined to call it a larp, since these aren't even things that were part of his imaginary beforehand.

>>18122538
You can't possibly believe this.

>>18122866
That's the key part. If they were just going to the Protestant churches of their ancestors or the current evangelical churches I would think it was real. But the seeking out Churches with exotic aesthetics shows it's a larp. The Latin Mass thing is especially silly as the Tridentine Mass was never normal in the English world.

>>18122866
>>18122874
I grew up in a very catholic setting, and I literally never met anyone who actually went to Mass regularly who behaved like TLM Catholics. They feel Protestant. Like you don't decide the Mass and pick and choose what to do, literally the whole point of being Catholic is to just follow the plan as they have a system. It's like cafeteria Catholicism has somehow inverted reality and is now pretending to be the true version.

>>18119123 (OP)
Nope, atheism will die out as the younger generation is increasingly low IQ and brown.

>>18122892
I would also add the increased demand for having a well-defined individuality or feeling interesting in general. Main character syndrome and whatnot.

>>18122951
Clearly why charity based versions of Christianity like Methodism are doomed. Going outside and having it not be 100% about you is the worst set up.

It's all a reaction really, though they will always deny it.

To most of them them the world is in a bad way, and the only way to remedy that is firm rules and laws. Since they rightly perceive that any law or rule can logically be called arbitrary, they delude themselves into thinking that Being itself, apart from creating the world, came down and handed it a user's guide as well. Or they just pretend they believe it, because they wish others did. This is the vast majority of converts. Here religion is political in essence.

There are also those who see themselves as being in a bad way and feel they need discipline, but also wish for it to be justified beyond the shadow of a doubt. The archetypal case is the closeted or self hating homosexual, and this explains why these are so numerous among the christians.

Finally, there are the larpers.

Scratch the surface of a convert, and you will always find one of these, or a mixture of the three. Well that or an actual retard who believes in literal magic (that's most cradles who've never had a crisis of faith).

I should add that there are a lot of intelligent people who profess religion, but mainly it reeks of countercultural posturing, and their personal interpretation of it is never literal (which would actually be a prerequisite for them being religious)

>>18123057
Pfft. Tell me, what do you believe, oh wise one? This should be rich.

why is being christian so controversional now? i thought most people had casually religious parents at least. like, the simpsons christians. maybe the orthodox stuff can be strange; but if you're just doing the shit your parents did that's by textbook not a larp.

>>18122286
Tick tock.

>>18123089
I "believe" in God, like anyone does. I don't believe in dressing the supernatural with myths, fables and fancies, and then pretending any of it should or could be taken literally.

This really shouldn't strike anyone as terribly original, t b h

>>18123094
Converting to Orthodox is inherently cringe. It's like attending a Korean PCUSA church level fucking weird

>>18119123 (OP)
no and it's probably going to get even bigger

>>18120981
> Even early christians had no problem defending extratemporal fall, and saying that man fell the moment he was created.
Quote one.

>>18124885
>Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
> לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, וְכָל-תְּמוּנָה
Might be more useful to that Orthotard.

>>18119927
The problem with your pic there is that atheists do not see themselves as hedonists. Atheists strongly believe that bullying transgender people and acting racist is immoral, but they usually tend to justify it using some Utilitarian calculus bullshit or some innate form of moral instinct.
Also, American atheists are a completely different matter from Eastern European or Chinese atheists, who believe there is no God but also believe in Marxist historical materialism.
t. not an atheist

>>18120797
> why do so many people insist Christian revival is a larp?
Because all they’re concerned about is resurrecting the former glory of Western civilization.

>>18124940
There are also European pagan-atheists, who believe in no God but also believe in some form of pagan spirituality or nature consciousness/animism. They tend to follow virtue ethics in general and insist consequentialism (and utilitarianism) are attempts to control moral effects across time, a meaningless act when faced with the fickleness of nature.

>>18120981
This. The majority of philosophically and theologically literate Catholics and Orthodox I meet argue that the Genesis narrative prior to Abraham did not literally happen. Instead, there was a couple of humans, Adam and Eve, who were considered by God to be worthy moral agents after having evolved the capabilities to be so. God gave them a chance despite knowing they will sin, much like a parent cooks a toddler's supposed favorite dish despite knowing the toddler will reject it. Of course, the Adam and Eve reject it and God lets them continue to live in the world full of suffering as that is what they, and we, chose.

In a way, even humans today, many of whom are in this website, board, and even this thread, would rather wait for the next soulslike game to experience it even if Jesus appeared in front of them and promised heaven if they'd so much as hold His hand. Such is human nature, such is our freedom - the true meaning of the choice given by the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

>>18119140
Why don't they convert to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church specifically?
That'd be fun

>>18120981
>>18126498
Is it really, genuinely, this hard to believe that it was anything more than a just-so story whose original proponents never imagined that it would be argued over by theologian autists trying to gaslight themselves into religiosity.