Thread 18150530

Why do atheists reject God's free gift of Salvation?

Because it is not "Free". It comes at the cost of repentance

To repent is to recognize that the Lord is right and you are wrong.

Not everyone is willing to let go of their sins.
But since thinking about the consequences is inconvenient, they just deny that there's even a judge watching over

>says God is a meanie because He doesn't want him to be enslaved by his sinful desires
I'm starting to believe more and more that this is the real reason for all of it. They cloak themselves in arguments about science and logic and morals when it's becoming very clear, especially over maybe the last 5 or 10 years, that what they really want to do is spend all day gooning to transgender porn and parade naked through the streets showing their genitals to children. And they resent being told not to do that. I'm really starting to believe that's all there is to it with these "atheists".

>>18150530 (OP)
Not a thing. It is all a feeling. All inside your mind. Atheists do not feel that. Their minds have other things inside them.
You really cannot know these things. It is all about belief, feeling, innate disposition.
>>18150573
Apologetics retreating into pseudo-psychology is one of the clearest symptoms of christendoms wider decline. I take no joy in it.

>>18150591
If you don't want to change and be like Jesus, you will not enter his kingdom

>>18150530 (OP)
It's not a free gift when it comes with the condition that I have to convince myself to genuinely believe a proposition which I find insanely unlikely. For me, that is a much harder task than something such as extreme asceticism.
>>18150587
I don't even watch porn.

>>18150530 (OP)
You don't give a fuck about salvation or anything. You just believe in this shit so you feel better about yourself and hope that everyone you don't like because of identity politics or ideology burns forever in torment and you'll get front-row seats for it. All you care about is that. You are just a sick and twisted person who wants to hurt people. Like all Christians.

>>18150801
You quite literally can't be like Jesus, dummy. He is very special in your religion.
And anyway. You are just presupposing your beliefs and pretending like I believe them.
I entertain them from time to time. But I also worry about the Karmic outcome of squashing bugs and how many millions of years in Naraka I will have to suffer.
I'm an equal opportunity agnostic slowly going insane.

>>18150530 (OP)
>tries explaining supernatural powers like God with a system that only explains natural events
Isn't that what Christians do? Aren't Christians the ones that are constantly trying to shoehorn metaphysical phenomenon to explain natural events? Isn't that why you retards think the Earth is only 6,000 years old, because you think that the Christian God alone is sufficient for explaining the natural world? I understand believing in God, but I never understood dying on the hill of a religion that makes claims that can be tested and undermine itself.

>>18150530 (OP)
I simply do not believe it. That’s all. Good for you if you do, but to have belief you have to believe and I simply do not believe in any religion, otherwise you are just faking it and that’s completely pointless.

>>18150862
There's no need to "believe"
You were granted ability to question and reason precisely so you'll understand that Jesus is right.

And reincarnation is just a false teaching telling you that you can just try again in your next life. No need to worry

Karma is a lie
Quantity is meaningless
All the years of being loyal to your wife are meaningless if you lie with another woman

>>18150573
>Not everyone is willing to let go of their sins.
You sin every day. I can't wait to hear your screams, papist. God hates you. :D

>>18150895
Jesus demonstrably isn't right because there was no global flood, José.

>>18150893
>>18150895

>>18150928
Everyone will sin
Not everyone will repent

>>18150934
That image of the Earth is at odds with Biblical cosmology. Enjoy hell!

>>18150936
Have fun burning.

>>18150936
Can you really call it repentance when you go straight back to gooning after saying sowy?

>>18150931
Your father wasn't a fish. Enjoy Hell.

>>18150946
Takes time to heal, lad
God forgives those who confess and show guilt

Woe to he who insists they did nothing wrong

I am agnostic and have hard time in being a sincere believer that the Bible is actually real. I'm lucky that that at least my local religion is boring Lutheranism I guess, I would be 100% filtered if I was expected to include saints, relics and other supernaturality like that in faith too.

>>18150961
See >>18150841.
For me it actually comes down to autism. I used to use the argument that I can't convince myself God exists the same way I can't convince myself Santa exists. Only recently have I realized that normals could actually convince themselves Santa exists if they wanted. Your average normfag is capable of deliberately making himself believe something is true just based on the fact that he wants it to be true. This is why my Santa argument never worked - normals literally do not believe me when I tell them I cannot choose to believe because it's completely at odds with their everyday experience.

>>18150895
You are making assertions. But they are always founded on the supposition you are right. That supposition does not seem rational. Leaving aside the bizarre implications of a where God gives you the faculty to accept some future salvation that faculty made necessary. Which results in a contrived Rube-Goldberg universe more fitting of a Minor demiurge than the sublime architect of the universe.

You dismiss Dharmic religions because you feel Christianity is true. You don't know it.

I don't have a wife. But you presume me married. To continue your metaphor.

>>18150573
>Because it is not "Free"
...
>But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

>>18150998
Yes, he opened the gates to heaven as a gift
But you still have to climb up

>>18151013
>And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

>GRACE: Favor; good will; kindness; disposition to oblige another; as a grant made as an act of grace
If someone has to work for a "gift" by "grace" then it was neither a gift nor grace in the first place.
The primary meaning of "grace" is "unwarranted favor"... and all derivative terms like "graceful" are based on this primary meaning. i.e. if an ice skater is "graceful" the implication is that they are *naturally talented* and/or graced by God; it's something they didn't *earn*.

>>18151035
It is not a "work". It is just the responsibility associated with accepting it

If you want to be a citizen of Heaven, act like one

>>18151431
>be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect
okay so are you perfect?

>>18151455
Of course not.
No one ever could. Jesus just wants us to try it anyway

>>18151458
Right. Do you actually think your eternal salvation is staked on you "trying"?
When Jesus already atoned for you?
Why does it not compute to you that Jesus both gives the free gift of salvation NOT contingent on works, and WANTS you to do good works?
You can't lose your salvation. You SHOULD do good works.
>why
Because it's good.
Jesus has no reason to do good other than that it's good, and this should be your reason, too.

>>18150530 (OP)
He never offered it to me.
>um yes he did, it's all in this letter written by Paul to his pals 2000 years ago
That's nice but I don't trust that guy or any other writer to speak for God.

>>18151466
>let me speak to the manager

>>18151465
Because Faith and Works

It is not a matter of doing it in order to be loved by God
We do it because we are loved

This is not a transactional business. This is just what you do if you love someone, and that someone is God. He loves us and we love him too

>You can't lose your salvation
This is a lie. You absolutely could. it is the entire point of the Fall

>>18151473
>This is not a transactional business.
If your salvation is contingent on your works (i.e. your works can invalidate your salvation), then it's a transaction: you agree to not sin, in return you get salvation.

>it is the entire point of the Fall
Adam and Eve were literally innocent, as in, they had never sinned. If you've never sinned you don't need a savior. Once they sinned they needed an atonement for their sins; which only Christ can provide.
Being "saved" is literally in reference to being saved FROM Hell/death. If you're innocent (like Adam/Eve) you're not "saved"... they didn't lose their salvation. They sinned and fell short of the glory of God.

>>18151477
It is not a transaction because heaven is not a reward - it is home

Sinning means committing damages
The transaction here is either you pay up for what you did, or go to prison
Jesus paid the bail

But being bailed out is no reason to return back to crime. Your duty is to return back home

There's no transaction here (not for us) We are. merely returning back to our intended jobs that God assigned for us

>Adam and Eve were literally innocent, as in, they had never sinned.
That's just Free Will
Always saved is a heresy that breaks the concept of Free Will. It never existed in Church history until Evangelists

>>18150801
If Christianity believes that was possible through works that would be fine. Too bad Christianity actually states that we are doomed at birth and the only way to be saved is to commit cannibalism.

>>18151503
>Jesus paid the bail
Are you serious?
Like, actually? Do you think a "ransom" is the bail?
Imagine someone was kidnapped and you paid their ransom... do they have to return to the kidnapper at any point afterwards?
Because that's what Jesus' propitiation is called, a "ransom."

Do you not realize what an insulting and low view of Jesus Christ you have? The God of the Universe, who died on the cross "for your SINS" only died... for a few of them?
What more could I even say to you? Clearly you're stuck on the idea that you're worth more than Jesus.

>>18151513
Correct
Everyone has aids and it is passed on to the child
You can't cure your aids
You need to put absolute faith in the doctor and no one else.

>>18151517
We aren't kidnapped, though
It was an open and voluntary act of revolt against God's kingdom

Jesus paid for all the damage that we have done. We just need to accept that we are wrong and that we must return home

>>18150530 (OP)
Jesus was a very good philosopher. The golden rule as he framed it remains the standard for human empathy and compassion. So o don’t really reject anything there. I just don’t think all the super natural stuff is real. I wish I could. Just how can I repent if I feel the repentance is a lie since I don’t think there’s anything I’m repenting to? Does it work if you go ‘if you’re real, I accept salvation?’

>>18151525
>Jesus paid for all the damage that we have done
clearly not all of them. since you said you can lose your salvation.
you sin to this day. we all sin. you're saying Jesus can't pay for sins after you believe in him. or somehow he un-ransoms you and then ransoms you again and then un-ransoms you etc etc.
All of our sins were YET to happen when he paid for them all. All of your sins, past, present, and future, are paid for by Jesus Christ or none of them are. What do you think it means to be "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?"

>>18151521
If a doctor tells me I have a disease at birth while having no proof of it while giving me overcharged prescriptions I'm going to question if the doctor isn't just trying to scam me.

>>18151542
>Does it work if you go ‘if you’re real, I accept salvation?’
Yeah, as long you don't believe in anything else for salvation. All that matters is sincerity.
It was easy for me since I was an atheist/agnostic raised without religion. I wasn't raised Methodist or raised Catholic or something. No presuppositions.
>Just how can I repent if I feel the repentance is a lie since I don’t think there’s anything I’m repenting to?
If you're trusting in Jesus you're trusting in Jesus. You don't have to be an uber bible thumper with a night/day transformation.
All you need is faith "like a mustard seed"
Or remember the prayer
>Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Just ask yourself
>does Jesus make sense to you?
>do you want to trust in him?
>do you trust in anything else?

>>18151565
This is the problem I’ve got. It doesn’t make sense to me. The philosophy presented strikes me as good, and I generally agree with it. Just there’s a big difference between thinking treating others as you’d like to men treated is a good idea, and believing the man who said it was in fact the child of God, returned from the dead, and so on. I would LIKE to trust in a greater power that loves me, will grant me eternal life, and all that just for basically saying ‘I’m screwed up, please save me.’ It sounds immensely comforting. It’s just that kind of abstract thought isn’t very easy for me to begin with and I have a very rough time trusting things that aren’t in front of me. Though if I can just go ‘if you’re real I accept salvation’ then maybe I should try that.

>>18151583
>I would LIKE to trust in a greater power that loves me, will grant me eternal life, and all that just for basically saying ‘I’m screwed up, please save me.’ It sounds immensely comforting.
I just thought Jesus was so good that I should stop kidding myself and believe in him. It was that simple. I didn't really think about "eternal life" etc. until afterward.
I was never scared of dying nor really in need of comfort beforehand. When i was an atheist I thought such a thing (the needing comfort) was a bit silly as well.
Like HE said, his "yoke is easy"... if you like Jesus, believe in him. There's no 12-step program.

>>18151548
Your problem is that you are defining sin as something nonchalant and done everyday by everyone.
It is not wrong but, you are also misunderstanding the nature of grace

Sin is defined as a complete rejection of God's will
If you commit a sin but you end up feeling guilt, remorse, and contempt for your actions, then you are not outside the state of grace. God is not angry at you

God doesn't judge you by your actions, but by your heart
Remember: Moses was a murderer, and yet, he never fell out of God's grace

Likewise, Free Will is defined by your heart
If you insist that you did nothing wrong and feel no remorse, then you reject God's authority. It is an act of rebellion, and God will separate from you, as you wanted

>>18151551
But he does have proof - your conscience. You know what is right and what's wrong and you know damn well that you did a lot of wrongs

He never overcharged you for anything. If ever, he is the one paying for your operation

All he asks is for you to worship him and do as he did

>>18151610
>But he does have proof - your conscience.
That's the Jesus of the early gnostics, Neoplatonism, most major Chinese groups like Buddhism, and even sects of Islam. Consciousness is not seen as divine in Christianity which is why Jesus needs to be God and not just a spiritual teacher telling us about the power we all possess.

>>18151612
No, lad
It is right here:
"They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness"

Thus, I repeat:
You know that you did a lot of wrongs, therefore you know that you are sick

Likewise, you know that Jesus never committed anything wrong
Therefore, you know that he is healthy

Your duty is to follow him so you will be made healthy again

>Here is my free gift of salvation
>btw if you dont accept i will make you burn in hell forever

nice "God" you got there christkeks

>If you commit a sin but you end up feeling guilt, remorse, and contempt for your actions, then you are not outside the state of grace. God is not angry at you
Judas felt bad about betraying Jesus and even gave back the money, but was not forgiven because he never believed on Christ.

>>18151607
>Remember: Moses was a murderer, and yet, he never fell out of God's grace
...? what?
>And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
>And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
>And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
>For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
Moses was completely justified in killing that Egyptian, as it was defending another person. He wasn't a murderer.
Do you just not read the Bible? I mean this is Stephen the Martyr talking. Acts 7.

>If you insist that you did nothing wrong and feel no remorse, then you reject God's authority
okay then that means that OSAS/Sola Fide types are good to go, according to you, since I feel remorse and know I did wrong when I sin.

>>18151618
Whatever sort of Hell you get, it's what you deserve. If you're dead set on going to Hell, then do your best to not sin and your Hell will be better than others'.

>>18151616
>Likewise, you know that Jesus never committed anything wrong
We really don't know a lot about the entirety of historical Jesus' life outside of him posing a threat to the Jewish system. Saying I believe you entirely there are religions which also offer me salvation by following Jesus except they focus on improving the self instead of committing cannibalism on someone I like. They also tell me that Hell is an illusion placed from my own mind and not the result of some deity deciding that I didn't kiss his ass enough so I should suffer forever.

>>18151621
>but was not forgiven because he never believed on Christ.
He was not forgiven because he CHOSE to kill himself to avoid the shame instead of giving it to the Lord

>He wasn't a murderer.
Bruh:
One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand

That's murder and concealment of evidence

>I feel remorse and know I did wrong when I sin.
Remorse just means that you did not give your full consent. But it is still a consent.
God's grace is not a license to sin
He is just giving you time to repent

>>18151618
You were already meant for hell. He is throwing a rope

>>18150530 (OP)
Because I cannot accept the claim that God essentially creates large masses of people just so he can send them to hell, and all for his own glory.
God doesn't actually seem to love everybody, in-fact he hates most of us more than basically anything in creation, and it's also our fault, somehow.
It's a sick parody of "love".

>>18152638
Christianity specifically denies souls existing before the human body which makes their God look really bad for birthing people just for God to send them straight to Hell.

>>18152646
It is indeed a sick religion, invented by sick and resentful minds. The redeeming aspects of it serve as the bait, but then you realize how messed up it actually is.
Reading the book of revelations was my first major redpill when it came to understanding the psychology of the people who came up with this insanity.

>>18152805
It’s “Revelation” not “Revelations”
In no language on earth is it plural.

>>18150530 (OP)
We reject God because accepting God is equivalent to believing in God. If all it took to accept God was to utter the phrase "I accept God" then I would have accepted God. I can't make myself believe in something that doesn't exist though. The idea that atheists reject God because they hate him is childlike.

>>18150530 (OP)
John 4:22

>>18150587
People have no obligation to follow a set of rules because a book or person tells them to. If there is a good reason to follow the rules then a reasonable person might choose to follow them. "God said so" is not a good reason if you don't believe that God exists.
This is not just true of atheists, people of different faiths are perfectly happy to follow their own rules but don't follow the rules of christianity. This is because they don't believe that there is a christian God.

>>18153492
The problem is that not believing in the true God is not legitimate nor is there a good reason for anything apart from Him. What matters is not your opinion, but objective reality. All men know this God, but unless He graciously gives them eyes to see they hold down the truth in their hearts, some by saying there is no god and everything is dirt, some less far gone by inventing an idol to divert His worship away to wood and rocks, but all to hide His presence from themselves so that they can be justified in their own minds in their dereliction of duty.

>>18153496
>What matters is not your opinion, but objective reality
Well given my capacity to apprehend objective reality, I haven't seen God, nor has anyone I know. Some people I know have felt God in their hearts or something of that nature, but that is hardly subjective
> all to hide His presence from themselves so that they can be justified in their own minds in their dereliction of duty
How terrible it must be to have so little theory of mind that you can't conceive of someone simply not believing. If God can't reach me through conventional methods of communication and hasn't given me a mystical experience then its on him.

>>18153514
hardly objective*

>>18153517
Thank you :) Christians think that atheists are all Humean hardliners on miracles but we just aren't convinced by somebody recovering from an illness or hearing accounts of seeing something in the sky or on a slice of toast. All it would take for me to believe is witnessing the partitioning of modestly sized body of water or a sufficiently hydrated bush spontaneously combust.

>>18150847
Wow moshie....

>>18150530 (OP)
I don't reject it i just don't believe in it.