Thread 212093377

I'm wanting to learn Brazilian Portuguese but there are so many accents. I need your opiniões Brazil bros since I'm trying to narrow my options down.
1) There are several different ways to pronounce the letter R after vowels/before consonants, which one should I use? One sounds like the Spanish R, one sounds like the English R, one sounds like the French R, and the other sounds like H.
2) should I pronounce S at the end of words as an s-sound or an sh-sound?

>>212093377 (OP)
Dont bother gringos cant speak portuguese without an accent not even the spanish ones can

>>212093377 (OP)
>I'm wanting to learn Brazilian Portuguese but there are so many accents. I need your opiniões Brazil bros since I'm trying to narrow my options down.
Go with the most default one first, watch TV channels and series
>1) There are several different ways to pronounce the letter R after vowels/before consonants, which one should I use? One sounds like the Spanish R, one sounds like the English R, one sounds like the French R, and the other sounds like H.
H is the most common, the others are only common in certain regions of the coutnry
>2) should I pronounce S at the end of words as an s-sound or an sh-sound?
SH only happens in Rio and Portugal, use S

>>212093439
I'm just wanting to know which native accent to imitate. I know I'm not gonna be 100% accurate but I want to get as close as possible and at the very least be understood.

>>212093490
Try the nordestino one

>>212093483
Is the Rio dialect the one that also uses the more guttural-sounding R?
Also how common is the English R pronunciation? I've heard several Brazilian YouTubers use this pronunciation like Manual do Mundo, Mundo Sem Fim, and so forth. I can easily pronounce it with the Spanish R too since I speak a lot of Spanish but I think my brain would confuse Portuguese and Spanish if I pronounced it that way.

>>212093526
>guttural-sounding R
Idk what you meant, sorry. But as far as I'm concerned they pronounce it like most people, R or H depending on where it is on the word. Carioca accent has the sh thing, but the other differences mostly comes down to slangs and expressions they use as far as I know.
>Also how common is the English R pronunciation?
As far as I know this only happens in São Paulo. We often joke about how they pronounce porta as poRRta (instead of pohta like everyone else)

>>212093377 (OP)
My advice is don't learn it at all and fuck off

>>212093621
I meant the back-of-the-throat, uvular sounding one. Sort of like the French R.

>>212093377 (OP)
H = avoid it because it's associated with the Northeast (poor people).
English R = avoid it because it's associated with Sao Paulo countryside (poor people), although today many young people in Sao Paulo speak that way
French R = Rio, avoid it because most Brazilians are prejudiced against Rio (poor people)
Spanish R = use this. It's the default pronunciation of most of the southern half of the country. Unless you are specifically planning to go to the north/northeast, then use H.

SH at the end of words/syllables is also associated with Rio and Northeast, don't use it

>>212093678
>H = avoid it because it's associated with the Northeast (poor people).
Completely wrong already.

Never heard an accent that use the r as the english h

You may also find this highly useful: https://uglossia.blogspot.com/2016/11/brazilian-portuguese-way-it-is.html
It discusses this exact issue among a thousand other things

Ignore Brazilians giving advice, like all native speakers they have no idea what they are talking about

>>212093377 (OP)
>which one should I use?
The one you like the most
>should I pronounce S at the end of words as an s-sound or an sh-sound?
If I was a gringo I would prefer S, because the sh-sound is very regional from Rio, Recife and the Amazon region.

>>212093526
>Is the Rio dialect the one that also uses the more guttural-sounding R?
Yes
>Also how common is the English R pronunciation?
It's spoken in the middle of the country, somewhat common
>I can easily pronounce it with the Spanish R too since I speak a lot of Spanish but I think my brain would confuse Portuguese and Spanish if I pronounced it that way.
You do what is the most natural to you

You will be understood anyway.

This map is showing all of red as "guttural" but it's actually more close to /h/ outside of Rio, so I would say "aspirated". If you decide to speak like TV people, most news anchors and dubs pronounce the R in coda as /h/ and S as /s/

>>212093638
I'm going to Brazil.

>>212093730
Maybe I'll just be an accent chameleon and just change my pronunciation depending on who I'm talking to.

>>212093490
Watch Professor Olavo de Carvalho's videos and try to imitate his accent, which is the accent of the educated class of São Paulo.

>>212093761
You will sound like an American regardless

>>212093678
>French R = Rio, avoid it because most Brazilians are prejudiced against Rio (poor people)
rio is the second richest state in brazil and one of the media centers in the country
brazilians seethe about rio because it's capital is culturally our most relevant city abroad

>>212093678
>H = avoid it because it's associated with the Northeast (poor people).
And the north, and most of Minas, and Brasília, and Rio. A big chunk of the country
>SH at the end of words/syllables is also associated with Rio and Northeast, don't use it
In the Northeast only people from Recife use it all the time, outside that city it's only used for S before T or D

typical northeastern pronunciation would be
>eshtudantes nas escolas deshtes bairros
instead of
>eshtudantesh nash eshcolash deshtesh bairrosh
like in Recife or Rio

>>212093787
Nah I know enough about phonetics and IPA that I'll eventually be able to get rid of any English influence through practice. I'm a sperg about wanting to sound natural, although I wouldn't try to hide that it's not my native language.
Also do you know if Brazilian Portuguese's /t/ and /d/ sounds are alveolar or dental?

>>212093730
Here's a better map

>>212093837
Unfortunately knowing IPA is not nearly enough to nail pronunciation, and doesn't help at all with stuff like prosody
But there's also a million other things. For example one easy way to clock an American is when they pronounce an English word.
>alveolar or dental
I have no clue

>>212093730
>>212093772
Do any Brazilian accents pronounce the r at the end of verbs?

>>212093975
I don't really mind if people know that I'm American or speak Portuguese as a third language but I at the very least want to have pronunciation that can be understood by everyone. Right now I struggle with the oral/nasal distinction, and I tend to pronounce /ɐ/ as /ə/, and I don't know how "strong" the /u/ and /i/ at the end of words should be since a lot of speakers seem to barely pronounce them (i.e. pronouncing "certo" as "cert" and "verdade" as "verdadj").

>>212093984
Yes, but a lot of people will barely pronounce it or pronounce it as if there were an accent on the vowel
>acabar
>acabá
>acabah

>>212093813
Yeah I thought the h-sounding R was the default pronunciation since that's how I usually see it phonetically transcribed for Brazilian Portuguese.

>>212093984
If not followed by vowel (like comer pão):
people who pronounce glottal [h] tend to drop it (unless they are TV people), retroflex [ɹ] it depends on how thick their accent is but I think most drop it, velar [x] and tapped [ɾ] always pronounce it because those Rs go quite hard and are difficult to miss. The dialects that drop it would still pronounce it if they are emphasizing the verb or in slow educated speech.

If followed by vowel (like beber água):
Always tapped.

>>212094223
It's not, see map >>212093975
It's the default in the northern half of the country and Minas. Which is big geographically but the cultural periphery. The country is dominated by Rio and Sao Paulo (increasingly the latter).

If you watch Brazilian content on the internet it will be a rarity, except for some news reporters who use the Rede Globo accent (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialeto_neutro). Which is a made-up accent meant to appeal to the whole country but nobody actually speaks that way and it's gradually disappearing on TV as well

>>212094363
So if followed by a vowel it's always a tap regardless of dialect but otherwise it's dialect-dependent?

>>212094423
So if I were to learn the São Paulo dialect I could use either /ɹ/ or /ɾ/? Is there an informal/formal difference between the two or do people in São Paulo usually just default to one regardless of context?

>>212094128
>I don't know how "strong" the /u/ and /i/ at the end of words should be since a lot of speakers seem to barely pronounce them (i.e. pronouncing "certo" as "cert" and "verdade" as "verdadj").
Brazilian Portuguese is still somewhat a stress timed language even if not as extreme as European Portuguese, so we will shorten some vowels or downright drop them. This tends to happen more with [i] though, I've never heard anyone say cert, it would be more like certw. I don't even know how to write that in IPA, but like just making the shape of u with your mouth and blowing the air of the t, as if you were whispering the u. This is for fast speech.

>>212094538
>I've never heard anyone say cert, it would be more like certw. I don't even know how to write that in IPA.
probably something like [ˈsɛh.tʰʷ]

>>212094512
/ɾ/ is seen as higher class, it's associated with the city core and with older Italian immigrants
/ɹ/ is traditionally the dialect of poor rural people and has been looked down upon for a very long time. This is changing right now within the last generation and you will hear a lot of young people use it. But people will still look at you funny if you try to speak like that as a foreigner because it's still seen as non-standard

>do people in São Paulo usually just default to one regardless of context?
yes, people don't change their accent in their native language lol

You really should read the blogpost I linked earlier https://uglossia.blogspot.com/2016/11/brazilian-portuguese-way-it-is.html

>>212094618
My assumption was that it existed on an informal/formal continuum in São Paulo and that younger people who use the retroflex might use the tap in more formal situations or something.

Sort of like "I am going to go to the store" vs "I'ma go t'the store"

>>212094636
Reading it now.

>>212094423
TV tends to use the glottal pronunciation of R. It's not totally made up, afaik it's how they pronounced it in southern Rio back then. Our first TV studios come from there and the way they speak is basically watered down Rio accent so it doesn't sound too thick for people around the country. You are kind of obsessed with it being associated with poor regions when glottal R is just a soft velar R that would be too localized to Rio. If the anon watches Brazilian content he will find it a lot, not just on user-generated content but TV shows.

>>212094437
regardless, as far as I know. The only exception I think is some people with really strong caipira accent, almost American tier, I think people from Piracicaba

>>212094512
That's the difference between interior of São Paulo state (American R) and the city of São Paulo (tapped R). People in the periphery of the city also tend to use the retroflex R.

you are not better than other brazilians or other latinx because you are from sao pablo

>>212094740
Nice. I'll try to familiarize myself with all the dialects but with the post-vocalic r-pronunciation right now I'm gravitating toward either the retroflex or the tap. I personally like hearing /ɹ/ in other languages since it's such a rare sound cross-linguistically especially in non-Germanic languages. But I'll probably end up using the tap for now since it seems to be the least stigmatized option.

>>212094924
The retroflex r used to be really stigmatized but I would say that it isn't anymore

>>212094618
>But people will still look at you funny if you try to speak like that as a foreigner because it's still seen as non-standard
We literally have no standard. We are country with no dialectal standard.

>>212094998
You are also a country with a LOT of linguistic prejudice

>>212093377 (OP)
It doesn't matter. They'll understand you regardless

>>212093377 (OP)
Just try to imitate the Google Translator lady accent, she speaks in a very generic accent.
Modern spoken brazilian portuguese is dogshit all around regardless of the regional accent, you have to pick your poison.

>>212095009
You think this is centered in a hierarchy but it's universal here. People think the accent of someone 50km away is already alien. Brazilians are incredibly insular, you have no idea. School kids in the *northeast* will mock you for being from São Paulo city and tapping the Rs or not nasalizing the vowels, among other peculiarities. You hear more about the opposite happening because there are more people from poor regions going to São Paulo rather than the opposite but back home these people in their poor regions mock other accents too.

>>212093837
>Nah I know enough about phonetics and IPA.

Speech isn't just about Phonetics, unfortunately. You have these things called suprasegmentals. There are plenty of people that do all of the sounds right, but lack other knowledge: stress, weak forms, vowel reductions, elisions, assimilations and so on. All stuff that natives (even English speakers) do unconsciously.

>>212093984
You know there are professors who have written papers and BOOKS on the topic, you lazy fuck?

> I don't even know how to write that in IPA
So you are pulling shit out of your ass? You are making up rules on the fly to sound smart on 4chan, lol?

>glottal pronunciation of R
Tf is this pseudo-scientific about

>>212095055
>very generic accent.
Because that is the accent usually transcribed in dictionaries, google won't reinvent the wheel. It is always the accent carrying the most prestige that is transcribed and taught in foreign language classes.

Have you heard of anyone teaching New York pronunciation in an English class? No? Thought so.

>>212095122
Welcome to every country, ever. It happens regardless how big or small the country is. It is a well known linguistic fact that people prefer people with their accent.

>>212093718
Bump

P.S. I hold a B.A. in Linguistics

>>212095499
Kek, I don't know how to write in IPA so I must be making stuff up. Great logic


>It is always the accent carrying the most prestige that is transcribed and taught in foreign language classes.
It's not a matter of prestige, it was what stuck after TV broadcasters reached an artificial middle ground that sounded good enough for everyone in the country. Nobody speaks like that in real life. Nobody actually speaks like the people in those courses in real life.
>Have you heard of anyone teaching New York pronunciation in an English class? No? Thought so.
Horrible comparison because Brazil is not the US. We have no such thing as General Brazilian pronunciation. We didn't go through the same social transformations as them to have that

>>212093718
So one thing I'm finding throughout this text is that it puts an [n] into the transcription of nasalized vowels. Is this correct?
>['bεbẽjn]
>kõmpeʨi'sʌ̃wn]
>[fa'laɾʌ̃wn]
And it also uses [ʌ] instead of [ɐ].

>>212095587
The fake "neutral" dialect made for TV reminds me of the transatlantic accent for American English but nobody uses it anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_American_Speech

>>212095587
>It's not a matter of prestige, it was what stuck after TV broadcasters reached an artificial middle ground that sounded good enough for everyone in the country. Nobody speaks like that in real life. Nobody actually speaks like the people in those courses in real life.
Pretty much this.
The issue with learning pt-br is that you will learn to speak it properly, but there's nowhere in the country where people come even remotely close to speaking correct pt-bt. In anglo countries, their day to day english is a lot closer to proper english, but in Brazil there's an insane disconnect between day to day portuguese and proper portuguese.

>>212095656
It also transcribes /h/ as its voiced counterpart /ɦ/. There're several transcriptions which I haven't seen outside of this document.

>>212095587
>general Brazilian pronunciation
General American was made up, lol. It is a summation of American accents, primarily coming from the New England region. The intent is to sound American, but not pinpoint you to a certain location.

>>212095587
>Nobody speaks like that in real life
Good thing you have realized it, lmao. If you were to stick to RP or GA, you would find that no Brit or American speaks like what's transcribed in the dictionary.

>It's not a matter of prestige
No one wants to sound like the local drunktard, especially when you have put in years learning a foreign language.

>>212095692
>lot closer to proper english
You Brazilian guys keep pulling shit out of your ass. It is hilarious. Statements with no actual value.

>>212095748
Nobody has to speak the most prestigious dialect of any given language, and it's not like learning a less popular accent will make everyone hate you or will completely bar you from communication with people who speak the prestige accent. I speak redneck English and get by well. Might as well speak redneck Portuguese.

>>212095748
>You Brazilian guys keep pulling shit out of your ass. It is hilarious. Statements with no actual value.
Not an argument. You literally have no idea how people here speak portuguese here, and you're trying to act like a smug arrogant know it all faggot. Get off your high horse.

>>212095656
These final [n]s are weird, I think the author just didn't want to use tildes for consonants like j or w. The [ʌ] instead of [ɐ] is something that I've seen before but I think [ɐ] better represents how we pronounce the a fechado.

>>212095715
It is voiced if before another voiced consonant or vowel.
Partiu ['pahtʃiu]
Perdeu ['peɦdeu]
Marcou ['mahkou]
Correu ['koɦeu]

>>212096134
Nevermind, he explained it later on in the document. According to the author, some dialects insert nasal consonants after nasal vowels.

>>212095802
Never said you have to learn the most prestigious, but rather this is what has been the most studied, and written about. Consequently, this is what gets taught when you are learning a language.

>get by well
That's why you learn an accent that is deemed "prestigious" - RP, or the very least "neutral" - GA, because once people hear you speak they won't have any negative presumptions about you. Also, passing as a "native" requires a lot more than simply pronouncing the words right.

>redneck English
Get outside the South and ask how people really feel about people speaking redneck. The associations they make are not very positive.

>You literally have no idea how people here speak portuguese here
Did I claim that I do? I literally corrected your false statement about GA. Every single society on earth has a language standard they are aiming towards.

I'm literally guiding the guy to get off pseudo-scientific shit from 4chan and read a book. All of the knowledge he is looking for was at one point written down and described by someone who actually dedicated his life to study the "Phonology of Brazilian Portuguese"

If he is shooting for a specific accent, it is more likely than not that someone actually wrote a scientific paper, had it reviewed by other academics and wrote down the exact deviations from your news media accent you fret about.

All I'm seeing is youtube tier linguistic knowledge here.

>>212096528
Like other less-prestigious dialects, I tend to (though not always) code switch and speak in a more standard register or at least with more of a lighter southern accent in certain contexts. For example making an effort to retain diphthongs instead pronouncing them as monophthongs, pronouncing "ing" as /iŋ/ instead of /Jn/, pronouncing the /t/ in the intervocalic /nt/ consonant cluster instead of dropping in, pronouncing "get" as /gɛt/ instead of /gJt/, etc. But even when I've been up north I haven't heard anyone try to correct me or be rude to me for it. Maybe I just haven't encountered someone prejudiced enough yet, or the negativity from hearing my accent has been subtle and unconscious rather than overt.

>>212096528
>>212097094
4chan filters the symbol for the near-close near-front unrounded vowel into J for some reason.

>>212097094
>try to correct me or be rude to me for it
Ever thought that people don't want to be assholes and usually keep quiet, lol? It is not socially acceptable to correct people.

If you code-switch, you have some self-awareness that it isn't very appropriate to speak the way you do. Why would you then try to pull that off in a foreign language? Moreover, having the knowledge vs. integrating it in your speech and using it naturally is a lot harder than it seems.

>>212097122
I'm not an expert on 4chan encoding. Don't know how it renders the "kit vowel". Every single vowel has a name, lol. But it is not the filter. /gJt/ had me crack a laughter, kek.

>>212097417
True but I'm of the line of thinking that accent stigmatization is wrong and I try not to judge people by their accent. An accent in and of itself says nothing of ones moral character or intellect. Linguistics tends to take a more neutral and objective approach these days, describing rather than prescribing.
Likewise, stigmatization can occur the other way around with speech that is too prestigious or formal being made fun of as well.

>>212093377 (OP)
vai tmnc fdp

>>212097753
mds...

>>212093621
Why are you answering when you have no idea what you're talking about?

>>212097566
It is way more likely that someone makes fun of you for sounding "redneck" than someone making fun of you for sounding LA, get where I'm going?

>accent in and of itself says nothing of ones moral character or intellect
Accent is a marker where you grew up, what social strata you belong to and so on. Accent points out whether you have attained higher education and the list goes on and on. It should be noted that this is GENERALLY what is believed, of course, there are exceptions (e.g. Bernie Sanders)

>Linguistics tends to take a more neutral and objective approach these days
Linguistics studies language as it is, with all of its variation and nuances.

I'm talking about foreign language learning here. As a non-native you are highly advised to follow the rules. Otherwise it can get messy. What if you learn the accent of one group, but you encounter someone from a second group?

If you get around to speaking and listening Portuguese, it is going to be on the internet, where you will be exposed to shit tons of different accents, dialects and shit. Now image you open up a dictionary to look up the word and can't find it, because no one bothered to translate the dialect or slang to English. Same goes for pronunciation. The list goes on and on. That's why you have a standard form taught to everyone. Most people in these countries go to school and actually know the words everyone can understand.

You shouldn't really dabble with accents unless you are an advanced speaker. And then you should ask yourself is the information you are getting reliable. That article the Canadian guy linked was written by some guy called Cladio. Well, guess what, Claudio is nowhere to be found on the internet. How did he conduct his studies? Where he got his information from?
CONT.

>>212098313
English is the language that has been studied most extensively and to this day no one has managed to fully describe it. Now imagine the academic output for other languages. It is less than 1/10 of what has been written on the English language.

What you are doing is just risking having a communication breakdown by wanting to sound "native". ESL niggers do it constantly, it does not make them sound native, but on the contrary - even more foreign.

>accent stigmatization is wrong
Yet it happens, even by people who supposedly believe that, but do not apply it in reality.

>>212098061
Me not knowing how specialists and redditors refer to a specific sound does not mean I don't know the accents of my own country... Retard

>>212098313
I meant to say that linguistics, while it takes note of prejudice and cultural/economic differences which different dialects tend to reflect, it doesn't prescribe. It doesn't say how one "should" speak, or make an attempt to "fix" the speech of speakers of less prestigious dialects.
Someone speaking a Posh English accent could be smart and well-mannered, but they very well could also be dumb and rude. Same with someone speaking a Cockney accent. I admit general trends exist and said prejudices could be a reliable basis for assumption upon hearing how someone speaks, but they can be and often are wrong and first impressions aren't everything.
I'll probably learn the São Paulo dialect, either the urban or the rural one (the latter of which is becoming increasingly prevalent within the interior of São Paulo, particularly among younger people). But I'm not going to learn the "TV" dialect which nobody actually speaks natively.
I'll try to get to the point where I can understand most accents though. I'm not only going to familiarize myself with only one since I know that'd just set me up for an awkward encounter if I ever speak with someone whose accent I'm unfamiliar with. Eventually I'll get around to learning European Portuguese too, not to speak but just to understand since I've heard it's a lot different from Brazilian Portuguese.

>>212093377 (OP)
The Caipira is the only right answer.
https://youtu.be/iEz2SOmUUj0?si=wxgnI8K_5To2-EEu

>>212098540
You really don't, trust me. There is a lot more than what it seems under the surface.

>>212098580
>"TV" dialect
TV Dialect might be just what it says, a TV dialect. Just as the Mid-Atlanic dialect in the US in the first half of the last century.

I don't know the various intricacies of Portuguese Brazilian, but they are definitely teaching something that is common and understood by everyone and doesn't carry any negative emotional baggage. That I can tell you.

Even it is not one to one representation of a real accent, it is heavily based on the accent of some major city or region. I said it in some post above, lol. An educated assumption would it be that is it either based on Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro. I think it goes without a saying you are most likely to encounter people from these two places, rather than a random ass city in the middle of the Amazon jungle, hence why it gets taught.

And what a non-native speaker thinks isn't usually how it goes.

You are setting yourself up for failure by focusing on the "native" instead of being understood.

>I'll try to get to the point where I can understand most accents though
That should happen at a later stage rather than while you are making your first steps.

>>212099090
I'm still going with a prestige dialect, just not one of those "compromise" dialects you see in dictionaries and such.

otakucel
>programador desde os 9 anos de idade
>foi a fodendo Arábia fazer uma reunião de negócios
>tem milhares, se não milhões de reais investidos
uchida
>deve 130k pro governo
>tem um pc que não liga
>faz stream pedindo dinheiro

>>212099201
And how exactly are you going to learn a non-compromise dialect if no one has bothered to put it down? Lol.

If you think some youtube video of some retard saying X region is talking like Y is going to cut it, I'm wishing you good luck. What I'm describing is the reality. You might pick up a few words, but it doesn't go further than that.

There are professors that have studied the language for years, lived there for a short period and still did not manage to pick up regional accent. What makes you think you can pull it off, lmao?

>>212099708
The São Paulo dialect is the most well-documented one that people speak natively. Besides, there are resources in English for many Brazilian dialects. Go to Wiktionary and type in any Portuguese word and you'll see how it's pronounced in multiple different dialects. We're not in the 1800s.

>>212093490
do anything but this >>212093517

>>212099810
You are basically doing what I have been saying, amazing. What a progress!

You are very consistent with your posts.
>redneck
>rural
>urban
>random youtube videos
>random comments by Brazilians who just think something is so

We went from pseudo-science to someone(we hope) who actually wrote it down. Woah, actual phonemic transcriptions! Congratulations! I guess my job here is done.

If we get a few wikipedia articles deeper, we even realize that:
"Paulistano is the most influential accent in the country, recognizable as 'correct' by 93% of Brazilians according to a 1997 study."

Real science. Literally a redditor moment. Nice bullshit posting about TV dialect, lol. Fake, hoax!

The Paulistano accent is dominant in Brazilian mass media and is often associated with "standard" Brazilian Portuguese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulistano_dialect

Yeah, kid. Do not ask 4chan for advice. Do not fuck up your language learning. You will just end up demotivated and wonder why the fuck you don't progress.

At least I got you on the right course.

>>212100372
>The Paulistano accent is dominant in Brazilian mass media and is often associated with "standard" Brazilian Portuguese.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulistano_dialect
That's the reality, but literally no brazilian outside of that region will ever admit that.

>>212100372
The so-called "TV" accent is an artificial accent that is a blend of Paulistano and Carioca, without the most distinctive features of either.

>>212100576
I wanted to help the guy out, he is a language learner after all.

As >>212093718 said
>Ignore Brazilians giving advice, like all native speakers they have no idea what they are talking about

>no brazilian outside of that region will ever admit that
That's just some native speaker BS. The guy doesn't really need it.

>>212100633
I would rather trust a Wikipedia article that is based on what an academic is saying, rather than the random ass Brazilian villager online.
The guy who wrote the article has references to scientific journals. These people went out of their way to put it down as it is, without any biases and preconceived notions from the outside. Unlike many of the guys here or on YouTube. Not to mention that all of these articles get vetted.

>blend of Paulistano and Carioca
So, as I said, it is based on real accents, lol. Meanwhile you retards were claiming "Hurrr, duurr, nooo, no one actually talks like that."


What has caused this change of heart? Seems like I gently nudged you to read while we had this conversation, lmao.

>>212100888
>What has caused this change of heart? Seems like I gently nudged you to read while we had this conversation, lmao.
I've just got somewhat of a soft-spot for smaller dialects and languages, that's all. With the Internet and instant communication and standardization a lot of smaller dialects and languages are gradually disappearing in favor of larger and more prestigious ones and with that also comes a gradual erasure of culture. And there's a "smoothing" effect whereby exposure to multiple dialects results in the differences between them being smoothed out. As someone who speaks a non-standard accent of American English, I found several of the Brazilian Portuguese dialects interesting. The only one that my ears don't really like is the Rio do Janeiro dialect since all the extra sh-sounds remind me of a lateral lisp and its r's are rather harsh-sounding to my ears, but that's personal preference.
My grandmother for example speaks without the whine-wine merger and maintains the /hw/ sound. Several older southerners do too but it's disappearing among young people. I find that a little sad but I guess that's just the course linguistic development is going to take as the world is increasingly interconnected, technologically advanced, and globalized.
The most practical option is what most people tend to go with, but it makes the world a bit less interesting over time as the less-picked options gradually vanish.

>>212101196
>Portuguese is spoken by approximately 258 million people worldwide
>small

>disappearing
Languages were dying well before the internet.

>prestigious ones
What exactly constitutes a prestigious language? No languages is more prestigious than another one. It is was some retards reduce it down to, because in the West we have been told X is always better than Y.

>radual erasure of culture
No phenomenon is distinct to our time, my man. Culture have been erased, transformed back in the day as well.

>grandmother for example speaks
Your grandchildren won't be talking the same way you do. Your grandmother's grandmother didn't talk the way she does. Language is fluid, it never stays the same. Accents merge and diverge. Business as usual. People migrate, move out. Brazilian Portuguese has probably underwent shit tons of changes imaginable through immigration from Italians, then you have contact with different tribes, another immigration wave from Lebanon, that probably has left a mark.

>less-picked options
You probably came out of your mother's pussy and were like "Hey y'all, how's it goin'?" It isn't an option, you acquire it unconsciously.

>ears don't really like is the Rio do Janeiro dialect
Your ears are not attuned to it, it is quite normal since you have been speaking English for the better part of your life.

The "Southern" accent isn't as static as you think either, it has underwent quite a lot of change over the years.

>>212101196
>The only one that my ears don't really like is the Rio do Janeiro dialect
Based

>>212093377 (OP)
Being honest i would say to not care too much for accents, after all every place in this country has some strange way of speaking and you will probably be confused when someone here use english words like AD (or "Adê"), as if it was spoken in brazillian mixing both languages in a single sentence.
But it's fair to really not learn the Northwest/Nordestino accent as it is mocked everywhere outside that shithole, and Rio accent isn't that mocked but many people outside of it will think of you as a criminal and kinda avoid you thinking you gonna steal them.

>>212101644
>>small
I meant other languages when I said "languages" I wasn't implying Portuguese was a small language. Like Guaraní, Navajo, Quechua, Inuktitut; basically languages which are at risk of disappearing.
>Languages were dying well before the internet
>What exactly constitutes a prestigious language?
I was referring more to dialects when talking about prestige. Although prestigious languages definitely do exist, and this is part of why several smaller languages are disappearing. Why learn Navajo when you can just learn English? Why learn Bashkir when you can just learn Russian? Why learn Quechua when you can just learn Spanish? Why learn Berber when you can just learn Arabic?
>It isn't an option, you acquire it unconsciously.
I meant for those learning the language and deciding which accent to learn. Everyone always goes for the most prestigious dialect, and different dialects of many languages are gradually vanishing over time. The Internet and media has only exacerbated this trend. But I guess it's an inevitable byproduct of human development. Something that sucks but is gonna happen anyway. I think efforts should be made to preserve different dialects and languages and prevent them from disappearing.
>Your ears are not attuned to it
I know. I just prefer how the São Paulo dialect sounds over the Rio Do Janeiro dialect. Completely subjective preference and I'm not judging anyone because of it.

>There are several different ways to pronounce the letter R after vowels/before consonants, which one should I use? One sounds like the Spanish R, one sounds like the English R, one sounds like the French R, and the other sounds like H
Here's the funny thing. You don't need to worry so much about these. Just pick one which sounds more beautiful to you and go.

should I pronounce S at the end of words as an s-sound or an sh-sound?
The sh-sound is only used on Rio. If you want to get into this accent, just go ahead.

>>212100888
If you actually talk to a paulista, or watch a paulista youtuber, you'll realize they don't sound like the "neutral" TV hosts at all. They think they do.

>>212102039
>why learn
The languages you gave as examples weren't exported and forced upon other people. They naturally developed as the community grew, and are naturally dying as the community is going extinct.

Also >why learn Navajo
Maybe a lack of resources and teachers, maybe these people do not want outsiders in their group? I doubt Bashkirs would be really happy if people started learning Bashkir on a mass scale. It is a hard concept to grasp for a Westerner, but these people are usually very closed off.

>Everyone always goes for the most prestigious dialect
In the world of second language learning you are not presented with many options. For instance, most ESL speakers have just been exposed to RP in the classroom. Same with French, same with Russian, same with most other languages, you don't really want confuse people by mixing up different accents. Not the mention that it is usually a couple that have been studied extensively, but still not incorporated into teaching material.

>think efforts should be made to preserve
That's why we write them down as it is, not what some random ass Brazilian guy who really hates the neighboring city thinks.

>>212102344
The study was done almost 30 years ago, lol. Things have changed. Of course the accent of your youtuber who gets electrocuted in his favela is going to be different from the TV host that went and spent 4 years in a university.

>>212102746
It also affects how parents teach their children. Many parents won't pass on their dialect or language and will encourage their child to learn the bigger dialect or language. Or some will try to pass it on but the kid will inevitably through the Internet, television, film, music, etc. have much more exposure to the more dominant dialect or language.

>>212093731
We are full

>>212102888
Up to the parent and up to state policy. Bashkir is taught in schools in Bashkiria. Same with pretty much most minority languages in Russia, but that's an exception rather than the rule.

>encourage their child to learn the bigger dialect or language
If you look through history smaller language groups also spoke their native tongue among one major one, usually the language of the nation hosting them. Nothing new under the sun. Moreover, I doubt many parents want their kids left out of economic opportunities and being poor.

But all that is now a philosophical debate and opinions.

>>212102916
mf, I want to come at least once

>>212102916
Remember when Bulgarians ruled you, Brazilian boy??? We literally own your country, submit to us!

>>212093377 (OP)
Rio or São Paulo (city) are your best options. São Paulo is generally regarded as more "neutral" sounding. The Rs before consonants are softly rolled, the S is always pronounced as S. Rio is very strong and identifiable, so you'd stand out a bit more. French Rs before consonants, S sounds like sh both in the middle and at the end of words. You might go with the one that you think sounds the best or just the city you feel more affinity towards.
There are plenty of other good accents in the country too, but they're very regional/provincial and would make you stand out in a funny way. Like if you met a Brazilian who speaks English like he's from the deep south for some reason. Both the accents of Rio and São Paulo are also widely spoken in media so you wouldn't have a problem finding references for either.

>>212102916
Well, make room for me.

>>212102746
This includes educated high class people, the "posh" version of the paulista accent has some distinctive italian-ish touch that you don't get with TV hosts at all, for reference it's the accent of lord vinheteiro, very distictive from the way William Bonner speaks.

>>212104909
And now thinking about it, some more São Paulo-centric programs and outlets like Cidade Alerta, Brasil Urgente and JovemPan have hosts with a distinctive accent unlike the neutral speak in Jornal Nacional or SBT Brasil

>>212093377 (OP)
Brazilian "Portuguese" is not a uniform class, but rather a continuum of dialects and sociolects that may be very different from each other. What Netflix or Google labels as “Brazilian Portuguese” and tends to be taught
to foreigners is normally a mashup of the upper and middle-classs dialects of the cities of São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. That is basically the language used on national TV by news anchors or talk show hosts, as well as in Brazilian telenovelas, children’s programs, and movie dubbings, but is a bit of an artificial construct. “Brazilian Portuguese” may also refer to the contemporary standard written language used for example in printed newspapers in Brazil, especially again in Rio and São Paulo.

>>212093483
>SH only happens in Rio and Portugal, use S

It happens in all regions of Brazil

>>212093975
My impression of curitibanos was that they favor the retroflex variant

>>212103075
She ruined the country. Thanks to her there won't be another woman president for at least a hundred years. So in a certain way she also saved the country.

>>212104909
I woundn't call the vinheteiro accent posh, i'ts more of a traditional accent that comedians from Rio loved to imitate and make fun of

The posh middle class accent is more like this:https://youtu.be/CdOanksUe_0?t=14

While the tradionial paulistano associated with italian, syrian-lebanese and ashkenazi descendants is more like this: this:https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4SXdSyamIA8

>>212093377 (OP)
Pick the most gringo accent you can muster for attention.

Wow, I didn't expect this thread to survive Yurop hours

>>212098843
It has relatitively low prestigious

>>212104909
>William Bonner
I bet the guy has a huge bonner. No idea what is your accent situation. I'm not qualified to speak about Brazilian accents, neither about Portuguese ones. All of the remarks I've made were general based on my knowledge on how language material is made, compiled, produced and carried out.

>>212106466
Sounds like AI regurgitated crap, lol.

>>212107329
Damn, I remember people talking about Brazil in the late 2000s before the financial crisis struck. There were big hopes for the country. Many euro songs used to fetishize Brazil. This romanticized version of Brazil has stuck with me ever since. I love it Brasil so much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv8nGq-XMQM one of the songs that immediately comes to mind

And the comment was intended as a joke, lol. Wasn't she embroiled in some Petrobras corruption scandal? Anyways, she is enjoying her comfy seat at some bank now.

>>212109285
It was not her fault at all. It's just that China mostly finished their phase of rapid urbanization and the demand for commodities fell.
Brazilian politicians don't matter at all because the country is so corrupt. Instead the economy develops in booms that arise naturally when some random thing becomes valuable for export, like historically happened with gold, rubber, coffee, and most recently the China commodities boom. Once the boom ends the country becomes a shithole again. It's really depressing desu.

>>212110129
Nova Matriz Economica. If a guy like Palocci was still in charge Brazil wouldn't have such a crisis

>>212093377 (OP)
>One sounds like the Spanish R
There are two Spanish Rs. A soft sound such as in "pero" or a harsh sound such as in "perro".

>>212110129
I literally said "the financial crisis". It is abundantly clear that I meant 2008. She was not even president back then.

>China mostly finished their phase of rapid urbanization
All I can say is that attributing the downfall to just a single cause is retarded. It is usually a multitude of factors that lead to financial ruin. If only the world was that simple, things would be a lot better.

>>212110554
2008 financial crisis barely affected Brazil which was booming at the time due to the aforementioned commodities boom. It was in 2014 under Dilma that everything started falling apart. Which is probably what this guy >>212107329 was referring to even though it was not her fault

>>212110446
The latter one in syllable onset fell out of fashion in Brazil in the last decades. Nowadays only some older and rural people still use it.

This late actress from São Paulo used a lot:

https://youtu.be/dVBHOhAMTsc

>>212109285
>Sounds like AI regurgitated crap, lol.

That's rude, i spend some hours creating the chart based on academic studies and my observations

>>212096528
>Every single society on earth has a language standard they are aiming towards.
Brazil does not. Why do you keep going with your misplaced "expert" opinion? Someone who admitedly doesn't know enough about Brazilian Portuguese keeps telling everyone about how wrong they are. You asked "Tf is this pseudo-scientific about" about the glottal pronunciation of R, that's how unfamiliar you are with our language and you are still talking big shit, dunking on people with your preconceptions pulled out of your ass. Having a background in linguistics doesn't qualify you as a Portuguese expert to speak with this much authority with this little knowledge. Humble down a bit, scholar.

The observations appointed by Brazilians here can either be corroborated or debunked with OP's own experience, let he figure it out. Spoiler: they will be accurate most of the time because we know our language

>>212100372
Paulistano accent is associated with a wealthy city but it is not dominant in mass media. It's unbelievable how you throw in the garbage the opinion of several locals for some wikipedia article
>>212100888
If you love wikipedia articles so much there's one supporting what the anon said about the neutral TV accent lol
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialeto_neutro)
Now what are you going to believe mister wikipedia expert?

>>212093377 (OP)
As someone who can speak it passably enough sucas go WOAH :0, why would you want to?

There is nothing redeemable in Brazil except the ~5% of trad based racist White Christian women, and even that's up for debate.

>>212107329
I thought Paulo Freire ruined Brazil

>>212112642
lame cope

>>212112841
I'm being honest though. You do have tons of hot women, but they also make an OF girl seem like a prude.

Of the based trad Christian ones (usually evangelicals), only a percentage are white, and of those only a percentage don't date pardos or pretos

>>212112686
Paulo Freire ruined the whole world

>this thread
it's seems like chikaner has improving his baits, look the amount of BR newfags falling for it.

>>212093837
>Nah I know enough about phonetics and IPA that I'll eventually be able to get rid of any English influence through practice.
Are you aware of this? https://youtu.be/jQAc_RQ5f4U

>>212097122
>>212097417
Here -> ｪ

>>212114813
Thais Channel is nice