Thread 212649904

And then "civilization" came..

well native didn't have horses for one

>>212649960
Kek

>>212649904 (OP)
Unpopular opinion on here, but they mostly had a great way of life. Nature, hunt or gather to eat, out in the wild, clean water etc. Etc. Simple life

Seems more fulfilling than our concrete, money grinding lives no?

>>212649960
They rode bears anon

>>212650026
my point exactly
their profound love for nature is what got me interested in them

population remained low in the west because before the horse the indian had to get a large group to hunt buffalos, it was extremely dangerous as they used actual runners to scare the buffalos, since they had no domestic herding animals they had to hunt for other meats like rabbits and deers, they had corn bean and squash but not enough to feed the plain indians all year

horses changed all that and the buffalo suffered greatly, it is said they would kill an entire herd because one escape buffalo would bring calamity so they'd kill hundreds of buffalos just because they can, it was all very wasteful and grusome since they are packed so tightly together bulls would charge and trample the little buffalos

the peaceful indian that lives in tune with nature is a myth, if they had the tools and are just as destructive and cruel, life was brutal and short for the indians as well, don't fall for fallacies

How are tribes and confederations not civilized in the most fundamental sense
Human beings are civilized animals
You cannot separate artifice from our nature
Was John Smith sentenced to death by no power at all?
Was Pocahontas the princess of nothing and nowhere?

>>212650026
hunting and gathering is far from simple, you spend every waking moment trying to find food and rival groups might fight you for your territory. the most fulfilling human lifestyle was probably the tail end of the Neolithic farming period, right before the earliest civilizations started.

>>212650026
They lived in squalor and famines amd conflicts were common

>>212650233
>>212650280
i'm not saying they were some sort of 1960's hippies. they had to do what they had to do in order to survive, nothing wrong with that.

>>212650350
They lived shit lives, they could get barely enough food to get the population going entire "nations" had the population of european towns, and this from even before the plagues came

>>212650026
>>212650130
You referring to a collective "they" with all the usual Pocahontas themes betrays the enormous depths of your ignorance.
For most of the largest tribes, their main pastime was killing the other large tribes to drive them from hunting grounds they didn't even have the population to require. They are one of the best examples of idyllic neolithic life in some aspects, and for some tribes, but the way europeans talk about native american culture is EXACTLY how hippies talk about Hinduism - propagandized, idealized, used as a vessel for their own ideas, out of touch, on the wrong track, revisionist.

>In Democrates Secundus, or The Just Causes of War against the Indians, Sepúlveda followed Aristotelian and humanist arguments he derived from Palacios Rubios and Poliziano. >He proposed four "just claims" to justify the conquest:

>The right of protection of the Indians, which implied their submission to Christian rule, in the belief that it was for their own good to submit to the Spanish, since they were incapable of governing themselves. This did not mean reducing them to servitude or slavery, but rather that they should always be considered, so to speak, minors.
>The need to prevent, even by force, cannibalism and other unnatural behaviors practiced by the indigenous people.
>The obligation to save future innocent victims who would be sacrificed to false gods.
>The mandate of evangelization that Christ gave to the apostles and the pope to the Catholic King.
>Waging war would facilitate the preaching of the faith.

>>212650026
actually indians dropped off older members all the time, not 70+, 50+
if you reached certain age and your body start to ache and you can't runaround like the fit warriors they are suppose to be they basically tell the chief, hey i am old leave me be, and they just stop following the tribe, they might live for a long time but you had to carry your own, if you are a net loss you are no good to the tribe
indian life was very unforgiving, you don't get to hang around and do nothing all day

>>212650420
so in your opinion stuff like ww1, ww2 and all the wars that are going on right now, in this very moment are what exactly? plus you're focusing too much on the killing stuff, what about the other shit? if your civilization is so good why is it in the shitter currently?

>>212650420
That's a lot of seething for a fairly simple statement about living amongst nature vs current western society.
Go touch grass anon. Lot of pent up rage and wanting to be defensive anon, are you Israeli? Or just a practiced goy?

>>212650560
>erm but you have, like, war?
>if you're not a permanent utopia how can people who killed each other constantly despite the lack of any material scarcity not be more enlightened?

>>212650435
did you pray to rabbi yeshua today, juan?

>>212650495
That's based! Much better to die surviving outdoors seeing the sky and stars than limping away in a nursing home surrounded by colourless walls next to a beeping machine.

>>212650615
You live amongst nature, anon. It was already over for the amerindian when he committed the sin of crafting a spear.
Given your entire post is just having a spergout trying to respond sarcastically to how you believe I must FEEL, I will accept your concession. Please be less ignorant in the future.

>>212650670
>More drivel
Definitely neckbeard goy
More words don't make you smart anon, stop listening to Jordan Peterson.

>dedicate your entire existence to pillage, rape, raiding, tourture, and murder and sometimes cannibalism
>hundreds of years later whites portray you as a peace loving noble savage
why does this happen? they got banned from doing any of the things I stated above and turned to depression and alcoholism in their reservations

>>212650639
lol you are the pussy that's against basic human stuff
i'd rather go out and partake in some tribal war defending my family and honor than live in a "civilized" society full of depression and all around artificial shit

>>212650026
No. That's a stupid fucking question. Don't ask stupid fucking questions.

>>212650833
Hit a nerve anon?

>>212650786
>whites
Anon, I..

>a romanticized (western concept) portrait (drawn by a white man) of two redskin cannibals who'd kill you in cold blood, sitting on an animal that didn't exist in America (brought by europeans)
>Somehow I am supposed to feel sad
lmao grow up kid, modern life is the best, I love Civilization

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say the area that served as the basis for that picture looks 100% the same today
>>212649960
also this

>>212649904 (OP)
i dont get it who are these dude? moroccans?

>>212650495
Holy based, we should do the same, fuck boomers
Having a sizeable portion of my salary being robbed by the State every month to feed pensions to decrepit fucks who hate me makes my blood boil

>>212651679
they are the natives of the country that is currently the base of operations for your people

>Mutt melty over a few people having positive opinions of indios

Why are they like this?

I don't believe in racial superiority, but the fact that the natives had a suitable climate and a large land area, and no nation before the arrival of the Europeans, seems to support the idea of racial superiority

>>212649904 (OP)
if by civilization you mean genocided by timmy then yes I guess.

>>212649960
They had horses way back in the day, they just drove them to extinction lmao

>>212652038
You're a yellow subhuman insect

>>212651813
hebrews?

>>212652038
>got assraped by cityless mongolians

>>212652141
yea 50,000 years ago, when dogs were the size of bears and horses were size of dogs

>>212652141
If you guys actually read the Book of Mormon, you'd know that white people were actually in the new world and had a civilization that was based but the evil dark skinned indios killed them all and took over their cities and then pretended they built them (aztecs, incas, maya etc, all those civilizations were built by europeans, at least until roughly 700 ad) same story as today.

it's honestly so disgusting what whitoids did to them

>>212652245
At that time, Mongolia was the largest country in the world. Rather, we collapsed that great Mongolia and made it return to a tribal society.

>>212652008
>waaah we brought 50 million people into your country in the span of 20 years but you still have to respect us waaaah waaaah!!

>>212652038
what do you mean with no nation? no states? they where pretty much on a mesopotamian level, maybe even ancient greek level (except for bronze and iron) in mesoamerica, yucatan and andes, and in north america you had the mississipians and anasazi who also built major cities.
the nomadic indians wheren't a thing before horses

>>212650026
true
>>212650348
>>212650420
>>212650390
>>212650495
wrong

>>212652647
your people worship the ground that blue eyed folks walk on

>>212652734
Oh, I mean the current American and Canada territory, not Central/South America.

My thing with the indians is how consistently they couldn't stand a chance against euros of any kinda, from the iroquois confederacy to the inca, ONE of those powers should have been able to fend a few euros off, but literally all of them got smoked. The incas are the most embarrassing one, the mental gymnastics people do with that are ridiculous, there was never a big scary spanish army, but a very well developed government with a large military still failed to not get completely fucked by the spanish, just crazy, almost seems divine.

>>212652844
Dumb gook, he meant the Pueblo that were in the Southwestern US

>>212652844
most north american natives where part of agrarian civilizations or societies that collapsed because of european plauges.
nomadic plain nations like the sioux and comanche where pretty much the equivalent of a mad max apocalyptic society but with horses instead of cars and motorbikes

>>212652908
>señor we are invincible señor

>>212652960
Nope! There were tribes here, but no country

>>212650130
>their profound love for nature
lol

>>212649960
Correct, the natives hunted North American horses to extinction and didn’t see them again until Europeans brought them back.

>>212652961
>>212653036
Not anywhere remotely near the civilsational level of Mesoamericans or Ancient Greeks.

Mental i even have to point this out

>>212652038
you should probably kill yourself then since you're the same race as them by kkkrakker racial classification then lol

>>212653171
You’re not native Jose

>>212652961
how come europeans (besides ukians) are consistently better educated about the americas than stupid amerimutts?

>>212652961
>1. Most North American natives were agrarian civilizations
Not really. Only a few regions, like the Mississippi Valley (e.g., Cahokia), had semi-urban, agriculture-based societies.

But most Native groups in North America were hunter-gatherers or practiced mixed subsistence.

These weren’t "civilizations" in the centralized, urbanized sense like the Aztec or Inca.No writing systems, no large-scale bureaucracy, no imperial control.

in short, The majority of North American Native societies were not agrarian civilizations, but rather decentralized tribal groups with localized farming or none at all.

>2. They collapsed due to European plagues
Partially true, but misleading.

European diseases devastated many communities, yes — especially those with higher population densities. But in North America, most groups were already decentralized and mobile.

There was no continent-wide state infrastructure that <collapsed> like the Inca Empire.

It’s a stretch to say entire "civilizations" disappeared when most weren’t centralized to begin with.

>3. Sioux and Comanche = Mad Max with horses
Wildly inaccurate and disrespectful.
The Sioux and Comanche were militarily powerful and politically organized. They had leadership councils, legal traditions, diplomacy, and even complex trade networks.

Calling them "Mad Max" implies chaos and anarchy, when in reality they were adaptive, strategic, and structured.

e.g) The Comanche, controlled massive territory and negotiated with European empires as equals.

>>212653171
Also Nope! We had too many countries. The number of countries that existed on the Korean Peninsula in ancient times alone was in the dozens.

>>212653168
why are you moving the goalpost?
thats not what i claimed.
the gook claims there was no nation (he probably meant state but he is a dumb gook) in north america.
which probably is a false assumption since them having cities and agriculture proves that they likely had a more advanced organized government before 90% of them got smallpoxxed

>>212653036
Comparing these primitive settlements to Ancient Greeks is just such a mindboggling googoogaga drooling retard-tier statement that it makes your other arguments seem equally as stupid.

>>212653248
>gook gets proven wrong so he lets with chatgpt argue for him

>>212653348
i meant to compare the mayans and incas to the ancient greeks, the mississippians are more like the sumerians

>>212653363
I don't rely on chatbots like that. You can learn this if you study indigenous peoples in world history

>>212653248
>>3. Sioux and Comanche = Mad Max with horses
>Wildly inaccurate and disrespectful.
yeah no the comanche were about the most brutal tribeon the plains
you're leaving out the part where the comanche tortured every captive they took above the age of 8 and were so hated by their neighbor tribes that whites would be offered free supplies by those tribes if they were going to fight comanche
they held their own and did that with an impressive few 4000 cavalry warriors but they thought themselves so mighty that they didn't need allies and that eventually isolated and destroyed them
tecumseh remains the gold standard for native rebel leaders, his coalition was a much greater threat to america and the last massive native resistance before the expansion west

>>212653306
>why are you moving the goalpost?
>thats not what i claimed.
>>212652734
>they where pretty much on a mesopotamian level, maybe even ancient greek level (except for bronze and iron) in mesoamerica, yucatan and andes
Got dementia, Sven?

>>212653420
>indigenous peoples in world history
sounds like a pozzed feminist uni course that kisses the poor minority indigenous asses to make western academics feel good about themselves
>>212652734
>the nomadic indians wheren't a thing before horses
actually they were but they did everything on foot, they couldn't keep up with buffalo's speed so they would trick them into running off cliffs

>>212653298
>The number of countries that existed on the Korean Peninsula in ancient times alone was in the dozens.
your ""states"" were just tribal peoples and confederations mentioned in chinese books lol
>.No writing systems, no large-scale bureaucracy, no imperial control.
koreans never came up with any of this on their own btw
ALL you simply copied from china, specially after china colonized wild koreans during han
>But most Native groups in North America were hunter-gatherers or practiced mixed subsistence.
you're also a lying piece of shit and the swede is right as most people in north america either lived in mesoamerica or the missippian cultural sphere where agriculture was widespread

>>212652908
The difference was organizational. The Inca and Aztec were essentially overthrown by their own tributary subjects who the Spanish allied with. Even the whole mestizo caste system was basically held over from the old empires, just replacing the old noble families with the Spanish. You could almost view the conquest as a civil war ending in a Spanish coup d’etat.

Things were different up north since the anglo-american conquests were more genocidal/ethnic cleansing instead of ethnic fusion. The power difference was logistical rather than organizational; 1800s industrial US was an unstoppable behemoth, even if the net population of natives vs whites was still similar.

>>212653707
their trade networks pre-contact were fascinating
they've found turkey feathers from the mississippians in the andes and they've found jade from the aztecs up in canada
the indians in the US southwest wound up as the crossroads for goods to trade hands over distances tribe to tribe

>>212653707
Mesoamerica (where the Aztec, Maya, Zapotec, etc. lived) is culturally and geographically distinct from most of what we call North America — especially the U.S. and Canada.

Saying “most North American natives lived in Mesoamerica” is like saying “most Asians lived in India.”

It’s a category error

>>212653707
And the Federation Kingdom is also a country. Most of the small countries on the Korean Peninsula were Federation Kingdoms, but they were clearly countries.

>>212653809
>what is higher population density in more habitable regions
you are retarded

>>212653871
What does this mean? I didn't say anything about population. I'm only talking about the existence of a nation before the United States on your land.

>>212653760
Hernando de Soto tried to kidnap indian leaders in the mississippian region to try and take control of their "kingdom"
all that would result in would be runners getting ahead of them to warn the next tribal king about these treacherous foreigners who kidnapped his rival leader
after doing this a couple times and destroying any goodwill they might have had, the conquistadors found themselves under attack from all sides from tribes they hadn't even met yet, and they were harassed down the length of the mississippi river from tennessee/arkansas down to the gulf

>>212652961
No they were lol not even close.
They didn't have animal husbrandry because they killed all the animals beforehand.
There was thousands of tribes in North America alone. Like you had sections of Sioux and commajche who were in those tribes but killed their own tribes in war.
Keel in mind these were the first humans. Waves came over a wave would come over kill almost everyone breed in a little and conquer then another wave would wipe them out this went on 5000 years.

Meaning the indigenous you know now actually genocide indigenous before then

it’s funny how modern leftoids have gone full circle to the noble savage meme

>>212654077
no? it's just foreigners are tired to modernity
noble savage was always very contentious throughout history

>>212654153
>to
of*

>>212649904 (OP)
Americans saw this and thought "hey who are those people? we must get rid of them to make space for all the black people we have to import".

>>212654223
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tjdswqGGVg

>>212654111
i always thought daniel day lewis looked very indian

God red indians were so fucking cool(until they tear your heart out and give it to one of their gods so he doesn't destroy the world).

>>212652038
Realistically they are just more primitive and retarded. Easily seen with hispanics and natives today in the US

>>212649904 (OP)
>north america has some of the most fertile land in the world
>do nothing with it because you are that backward
whatever

>>212654436
the thing about plains indians is that they knew they lived beyond their means, indians had already a few wars with the us army in the east so there was no way they could win or get a concession
the buffalo was being slaughtered en mass and they couldn't cross the rockies with tribe in tow, most quietly went into the reservations, it was a lost cause since the beginning so there is a romantism of futility/fatalism

>>212654615
indians were hunter gatherers, not mass agriculturalists, north america had them hundreds of years before columbus but they were wiped out

>>212654741
bro the buffalo bounty was a military act
the US gov put it out to starve the comanche of their food supply
comanche warriors could find a herd, kill one, and thats about 500lbs of red meat they can smoke and keep for weeks/months
but kill all the buffalo and the comanche cant fight as far out in the range as they used to and that pressure allowed the union army to start hemming them in

>>212655214
bro no, buffallo slaughter was very wasteful, they didn't just kill to eat, yes eventually the army hunted the buffalos but the plain indians certainly didn't kill just to feed

>>212655403
“Kill every buffalo you can! Every buffalo dead is an Indian gone” -General Dodge

The policy was actually put forward by General Sherman (yes, that Burnin' Sherman who marched to the sea torching Georgia).

In a Letter to a fellow general (Sheridan), Sherman says "as long as Buffalo are up on the Republican the Indians will go there. I think it would be wise to invite all the sportsmen … there this fall for a Grand Buffalo hunt, and make one grand sweep of them all. Until the Buffalo and consequent Indians are out [from between] the Roads we will have collisions and trouble”

Another Lieutenant General from Missouri said "With my cavalry and combined artillery encamped in front, I wanted no other occupation in life than to ward off the savage and kill off his food until there should no longer be an Indian Frontier in our beautiful country”

Interestingly, General Sherman was the first man to use the term "Final Solution" in regards to how he planned to handle the indians.

>>212655675
i already mentioned this above before the horse the plain indians had to gather many tribes to host a buffalo run, it was a very big deal since some warriors would get killed baiting the buffalos, it wasn't done regularly
with horses and guns 2 riders could herd hundreds of buffalos, this is all before the westward expansion when indians got spanish horses from mexico, already at that time the elders knew the kind of killing they were doing were unsustainable since they'd kill entire herds and left the meat to rot

>>212650435
Deja de decir estupideces gallego mogolico

>>212652141
They were basically dogs bro

>>212655795
yes at one point they worked together but by the time of the buffalo bounty the comanche had driven all their competition away and ruled over more territory than any other tribe
they had an estimated 4000 cavalrymen and firearms (plus legendary mounted archery), they didn't need outside help to hunt buffalo

>>212650026
no
>return to monkey vvvvvghhhhh
fuck off tard

>>212650495
Based we should do it again today

>>212653806
>their trade networks pre-contact were fascinating

What was so fascinating about them? What I learned in history was they were possibly the worst traders in world history. There's Jade mines all over Canada how can they tell it's jade from southern Mexico, why would they want jade from there when they had an abundance of their own? The turkey feathers could have washed up on shore or do you believe they built ships to take it there?

>>212658493
>There's Jade mines all over Canada how can they tell it's jade from southern Mexico
science

Why do USA Indians mog other natives of the Americas so hard physically? Is it the bison meat?

>>212659050
Their ancestors came from Siberia more recently

>>212650435
jeet tier "arguments"

>>212659050
Some Argentinian natives were quite tall for their time too.

>>212653809
india is in asia
>>212653850
>MY federation kingdoms are real but not yours

>>212650026
Their life was not fun.
>>212650130
Not true they killed off a lot of big animals in North America.

>>212650435
>pic
Go back to plebbit subhuman

>>212659050
yes, actually, not just bison, it's hunter gatherer vs settled corn farmer, europe had the same kind of division long long time ago

>>212650026
They literally hunted most of the herbivorous Pleistocene megafauna here to extinction

>>212659050
Same reason steppe peoples were usually stronger and healthier than settled agrarians in Eurasia.