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Thread 215697431

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Anonymous Australia No.215697431 [Report] >>215698141 >>215698250 >>215698426 >>215699381 >>215700918 >>215701365 >>215702198
>Go on global dating site
>Chat to a bunch of Europeans hoping to find one to marry to escape my shit hole
>Turns out they have the same idea wanting to escape to my shithole
Happens in your country?
Anonymous Netherlands No.215697492 [Report] >>215697582
What's wrong with australia? Seems like the only anglo country that somewhat has its shit together
Anonymous Norway No.215697582 [Report] >>215697850 >>215699410 >>215700896 >>215701976
>>215697492
>What's wrong with Australia
Anonymous Netherlands No.215697850 [Report] >>215698152
>>215697582
>sun is shining
>vibrant community
>throw a 'roo on the barby

Looks grand. Like SA but with better demographics
Anonymous United States No.215698141 [Report] >>215698415
>>215697431 (OP)
How do these work when its a 20 to 1 male to female ratio
Zoom Zoom United States No.215698152 [Report] >>215698176
>>215697850
Australia is basically the UK with all the awful dystopian laws but with less Indians
Anonymous Latvia No.215698176 [Report]
>>215698152
And more chinks and better weather and deadlier wildlife, either way they are basically the same
Anonymous Saudi Arabia No.215698240 [Report] >>215698401
>neoliberalism shits up nearly every western country
>we'll just swap places around the world to eek out slightly better pay and living standards
Anonymous South Korea No.215698250 [Report] >>215698538 >>215698672
>>215697431 (OP)
>Go on global dating site
>No one wants to talk to sub5 ricecel
Zoom Zoom United States No.215698401 [Report] >>215698420 >>215698551 >>215698712 >>215698723
>>215698240
If the U.S really violently collapses and turns into an unlivable shithole plagued by schizophrenic political violence, rampant corruption, and overall socio-economic collapse I've concluded that after I get my degree I'll move to Singapore and start a class at the university there on why the U.S and neoliberalism failed. Just go full-on Nick Land except without the meth and tech worship.
Anonymous Argentina No.215698415 [Report]
>>215698141
op said "they"
Anonymous Saudi Arabia No.215698420 [Report] >>215698549
>>215698401
Good luck King. But half your compatriots will be attacking you for it so prepare.
Anonymous Australia No.215698426 [Report]
>>215697431 (OP)
Australia is superior to 90% of European countries, despite the recent massive plummet in standards of living
Anonymous Australia No.215698525 [Report] >>215698616 >>215699381 >>215700150 >>215700636 >>215702233 >>215703895
kek I literally moved to OZ from Germany.

Honestly anon, if you can't make it here, you won't survive in Europe. For illustration purposes:

>get job in mining because I need money
>have to fight tooth and nail to get entry level position because I'm not a citizen
>be surrounded by Australians that all got these jobs through friends and family
>they all make over 200k a year
>almost noone finished high school
>supposedly they are qualified tradies but the quality of work is atrocious
>a first year apprentice in Germany would shit all over their work
>they literally cannot even spell correctly in their own language
>they have missing teeth but own boats
>mouth-breathing genotype is super common
>common hobbies are alcoholism, being racist and watching footy
>literally not a single original thought

These people live better lives than 99% of europeans btw

If you can't make it here, I'm really sorry to break it to you, but you'd be homeless in the US and on welfare in Europe.
Anonymous South Korea No.215698538 [Report]
>>215698250
just looksmaxx king
Zoom Zoom United States No.215698549 [Report]
>>215698420
>half your compatriots will be attacking you for it so prepare.
The only people that will give a fuck about people like me in that scenario will be partisan militants and opportunists bought into the violence whose capacity for sentient thought left long ago. My family would understand and support me (especially my gigachud father).
I wouldn't want to though, it'd be a bitter, emotional exile. The U.S is the only home I and my family have known for hundreds of years since we settled South Carolina and Alabama in the 1600s, and I'd be committed to my study and research there from a place of sadness and anomie. I don't want to leave this country and hope to god with every passing disaster swept under the rug for le strategy of tension that it never boils over to that.
Anonymous South Korea No.215698551 [Report] >>215698647
>>215698401
i doubt signapore will that much of an improvement over your current situation, then again i've never been there but it's just my feeling. all developed countries are the same to a chilling degree.
Anonymous Australia No.215698616 [Report] >>215699140
>>215698525
>one tiny, specific portion of the population represents a nation

Also, why do you think they have no hobbies other than getting high and sleeping with thai hookers? The FIFO lifestyle has left them with no friends or community connection.
Zoom Zoom United States No.215698647 [Report]
>>215698551
>i doubt signapore will that much of an improvement
Singapore has arguably the most efficiently run government in the world and has managed to strike a delicate balance of freedom and authoritarianism as a mercantile republic since the rise of the PAP regime. It's pretty much the only place I could fit in where I would have both a good life and a friendly, internationally respected venue for my ideas.
Anonymous Sweden No.215698672 [Report]
>>215698250
Kpopmaxx
Anonymous Australia No.215698712 [Report] >>215698778
>>215698401
Singapore is just such a hyper-consumerist culture I don't think I could do it
Anonymous Canada No.215698723 [Report]
>>215698401
palianon?
Zoom Zoom United States No.215698778 [Report]
>>215698712
>Singapore is just such a hyper-consumerist culture
It is a mercantile city-state after all, it's basically the East Asian Venice.
Thing is, it's not much different than the U.S in that regard and I'm used to the consumerist hellscape of modern life, just that unlike the U.S it has clean and safe streets.
Anonymous Australia No.215699140 [Report] >>215699852
>>215698616
bro I do white collar now that I got my papers, and i do not mean any disrespect by this, but australians are some of the laziest, dumbest, and most complacent white people in the world. I like Australia because life here is one giant grift, any retard like me can become a millionaire, it's so easy it's laughable, but australia is a banana republic wearing a gucci belt. If we didn't sit on a shitload of gas, iron ore, gold, lithium and so on we'd be so fucked lmao.
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215699381 [Report] >>215699506 >>215699852
>>215698525
Holy shit anglo countries are heaven.
How do i escape this shithole and move to paradise oz to work fifo/outback jobs?
>>215697431 (OP)
You litteraly live in one of best countries in the world you have no idea how good you have it. Anyone here would fight to the death for a chance of moving to australia, canada , the us or even britain
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215699410 [Report]
>>215697582
Would be an upper middle class area here.
Zoom Zoom United States No.215699506 [Report] >>215699852 >>215699981
>>215699381
>this shithole
>Luxembourg
fuck off retard lmao
Anonymous Australia No.215699852 [Report] >>215699981 >>215700002
>>215699140
>We
Fuck off Hans
>>215699506
This
>>215699381
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, I'd skin you alive for your passport. This is a dry, ugly, hot depressing shithole filled with no culture, ugly architecture and even uglier people
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215699981 [Report] >>215700294
>>215699506
Its a hellscape. You have no idea what you are talking about
>>215699852
>waaaah i suffer in my tropical anglo paradise, i wish i could move to a grim post industrial overpopulated crackhead infested shithole where a house costs 30 times the median salary
Stfu faggot i would kill to be an aussie instead of a yuroshit
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215700002 [Report]
>>215699852
Also
>culture
Doesnt exist here
>ugly architecture
Australia is prettier than western europe
>ugly people
Uglier here
You cannot suffer in australia
Anonymous Germany No.215700150 [Report]
>>215698525
I too thought of moving to Australia starting out with FIFO work while I am on my work and travel visa and then look for an engineering job
Anonymous Kyrgyzstan No.215700191 [Report] >>215700218
Not a single flag in this thread suffers
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215700218 [Report]
>>215700191
Incorrect, we suffer and you dont.
I would have stayed in karakol if i could.
Anonymous India No.215700254 [Report] >>215700287
>NOOOOO MY FIRST WORLD HEAVEN IS WORSE THAN YOURS!!!!!
fuck you
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215700287 [Report] >>215700309
>>215700254
80% oc countries are better than here
You do not suffer
Zoom Zoom United States No.215700294 [Report] >>215700415
>>215699981
>Its a hellscape
>grim post industrial overpopulated crackhead infested shithole
You're the Switzerland of Switzerland when it comes to finance. You're siginificantly wealthier than Americans and even Gulf Arabs or SEA city states while having all the gibs, and you also have an EU passport to go anywhere in Europe.
>tropical anglo paradise
AUS hasn't been like that in about a decade, especially after COVID. They're a lot like the UK except they have mineral money. Also,
>tropical
WTF, do you think AUS is like SEA? That's only in North Queensland and Darwin, most of it is like Arizona.
>Doesnt exist here
It doesn't really anywhere anymore, but that's especially the case in Anglo colonies like the U.S or the ex-dominions.
>Australia is prettier than western europe
It isn't. Australia is basically a continent where the coasts are like California and Florida apart from Tasmania while the vast majority of it is basically Arizona.
>Uglier
>Luxembourg
Again fuck off, you seriously don't like Germanic women or Portuguese? Do you have yellow fever or something, because that's fair I guess.
Anonymous Australia No.215700299 [Report] >>215700369 >>215700775
I am a europhile and francophile so I would like to live in Europe
I am British by descent so if only Brexit hadn't happened
Anonymous India No.215700309 [Report]
>>215700287
just for that I pray that an entire village from here emigrates to your cunt so I can read seetheposts online
Zoom Zoom United States No.215700369 [Report]
>>215700299
>I am British by descent so if only Brexit hadn't happened
Don't man, Europe and especially Britain is so sad now.
The only reason I'm not a full-on self-hating American is because Europe is somehow siginificantly worse in a lot of ways the U.S isn't.
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215700415 [Report] >>215700875
>>215700294
>You're the Switzerland of Switzerland when it comes to finance.
Kek no, discount switzerland at best.
>siginificantly wealthier than Americans and even Gulf Arabs or SEA city states
Wrong. Median wage is 58k and houses are 1.5 milion and up
>all the gibs
Dont exist.
>eu passport
Worthless since you cant even emigrate from this shithole continent and the rest of europe has no decent country. Anglos can emigrate anywhere and their ciuntries are paradises
>AUS hasn't been like that in about a decade, especially after COVID. They're a lot like the UK except they have mineral money
So its better than europe
>That's only in North Queensland and Darwin, most of it is like Arizona.
Noone lives there. The coastal areas have a better climate than shitrope
>It isn't. Australia is basically a continent where the coasts are like California and Florida apart from Tasmania while the vast majority of it is basically Arizona.
So better than anywhere in europe
>you seriously don't like Germanic women or Portuguese?
Anglos are objectively prettier
I would kill to move to an anglo county
Anonymous Australia No.215700636 [Report]
>>215698525
This. I'm a Brit and in Australia life is way better for blue collar workers than back in the UK. Wages are better, work culture is way more relaxed and there is work for literally anyone who wants work. Even literal retards and crackheads make good money working here. The main thing fucking young Aussies is unaffordable housing, but that's still better than the UK.
Anonymous Canada No.215700726 [Report]
Moral of the story: we’re a planet of complainers. This makes me content with my own shituation.
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215700775 [Report]
>>215700299
For le its the opposite. Western europe is a fucking shithole and if brexit didnt happen id be in the UK like what everyone in luxembourg used to do before it happened
Zoom Zoom United States No.215700875 [Report] >>215701057
>>215700415
>houses are 1.5 milion and up
You don't have a family home? Are you an Arab or Turk perchance?
>Dont exist.
Don't fucking tell an American that Luxembourg doesn't have robust gibs lmao
>the rest of europe has no decent country
You're retarded
>their ciuntries are paradises
I live in one of your "Anglo paradises" and it's such a broken, brown, self-destructing shithole I'm contemplating moving to fucking Singapore.
>better than europe
Depends on what you're looking for. I mean, it's bigger and warmer than Europe sure, but it has zero culture or soul compared to it.
>Noone lives there
Yeah but you're the one going on about Australia being big compared to Europe, the places where people live are tiny compared to the landmass and most of that land is empty, bleak desert shit. America has far more variety and better climates.
> better than anywhere in europe
You have the entire Mediterranean from Cyprus to Spain you fucking moron
>Anglos are objectively prettier
The "hot Aussies" you speak of are usually Irish or Scots btw :)
Anonymous Singapore No.215700896 [Report]
>>215697582
VGH... YOU CANF SVFFER IN AVSTRAILIA
Anonymous France No.215700918 [Report] >>215701033
>>215697431 (OP)
Australia is one of the richest, most free and most stable countries in the world. Where the fuck would you go if Australia isn't enough for you?
All of you niggers complaining all day here about how your first world country is literally the worst country in the world don't seem to realize that 90% of the rest of the world is a complete shithole
Zoom Zoom United States No.215701033 [Report] >>215702034
>>215700918
>most free
Australia has some of the most bizarre and strict speech/art regulations in the Western world and is generally really cucked on that type of stuff, much like the rest of the commonwealth; not to mention immigration from China and India skyrocketing.
Other than that yeah its pretty great. I don't get why they went so insane during and after COVID though, they were arguably the best Anglo cunt before that.
Anonymous Canada No.215701046 [Report] >>215701491
>my country is a shithole
>i should move to a new one instead of improving it
are you spiritually a thirdie /int/?
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215701057 [Report] >>215701336
>>215700875
>family home
>bro just inherit
>implying i am allowed to live in it or will inherit it
Kek
>Luxembourg doesn't have robust gibs lmao
We dont
>youre retarded
Projection. The rest of europe doesnt have decent countries to live in. This hellscape included.
>such a broken, brown, self-destructing shithole
shitrope is 1000 times worse
You do not suffer
>bigger and warmer than Europe sure, but it has zero culture or soul compared to it.
Also actual nature, noce people, good jobs etc etc
Culture and soul dont exist in shitrope
>australia is big
Never said that but its indeed an asset
>You have the entire Mediterranean from Cyprus to Spain you fucking moron
Lmao
Thats an Ugly overpopulated tourist trap shithole. Its completely worthless. I would pick scotland or nz any time over these shitholes.Anywhere in the anglosphere is better
>Irish or Scots
So anglos
Zoom Zoom United States No.215701336 [Report] >>215701580
>>215701057
>>implying i am allowed to live in it or will inherit it
Are you a tranny or something?
>The rest of europe doesnt have decent countries to live in.
Denmark? Norway? Portugal? Baltics? Green Spain? Austria? There's tons of nice places especially if you're from a richfag area like Luxembourg. You can live like a king in any Eastern Euro cunt if you put your mind to it.
>shitrope is 1000 times worse
It's not siginificantly shittier than the U.S, it's just shittier in different ways.
>actual nature
The Ardennes is right there retard
>Thats an Ugly overpopulated tourist trap shithole. Its completely worthless.
LMAO and you think the nice coastal parts of the U.S and Australia aren't?
>scotland
Fucking kek, Scotland is the poster child of "grim post industrial overpopulated crackhead infested shithole where a house costs 30 times the median salary" and has been since the end of WWII, and I say this as a Scottish American that deeply loves the romantic vision of Scotland.
>>Irish or Scots
>anglos
Please do yourself a favor and visit the UK someday. It's not what you think it is lmao
Anonymous United States No.215701365 [Report]
>>215697431 (OP)
People have a tendency to idealize what they don't have.
As a rule unless you live and work in a country for at least a year you probably don't know if that's what you want more than what you're used to.
Zoom Zoom United States No.215701491 [Report]
>>215701046
>>i should move to a new one instead of improving it
There's not really any conceivable way to improve the U.S as long as all politics revolves around "Trump tweets vs. anti-Trump tweets" while nobody has any interest in addressing the multitude of deeply entrenched foreign and domestic economic and political issues the country faces.
I'm going into political science cautiously optimistic and hope to be a part of the solution by getting into working within the beltway and getting my ideas out there and fleshed-out, but things have been trending downward in this country throughout my lifetime with no signs of getting better. It gets you thinking about the unthinkable every now and then.
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215701580 [Report] >>215701978
>>215701336
>Are you a tranny or something?
Nice projection troon.
No, its just common of parents to sell their house and use the money to retire
>Denmark?
Ugly overpopulated shithole
>Norway?
Not part of the eu and impossible to work in
>Portugal?
Ugly overpopulated shithole
>Baltics?
Ugly shitholes soon to be invaded by russia
>Green Spain? Austria?
Ugly depressing shitholes
>There's tons of nice places
Not in europe. I would pick latam, anglo countries or asia 1000 times rather than thise collapsing dumps
>especially if you're from a richfag area like Luxembourg. You can live like a king in any Eastern Euro cunt if you put your mind to it.
No you cant because those countires are expensive af, remote job doesnt exist and those places dont hire other western yuropoors
>its not shittier than the us
It is
>the ardennes
A giant ugly tree farm. Absolutely disgusting. Also its not nature
>the nice coastal parts of australiabre overpopulated
Theyre not
>Scotland is the poster child of "grim post industrial overpopulated crackhead infested shithole where a house costs 30 times the median salary
Its prettier, nicer, has more jobs, better people and lore affordable housing than here
>visit the uk someday
Ive been there 4 times already. Its still better than anywhere in mainland europe
Anonymous Vietnam No.215701694 [Report]
The grass is greener on the other side, the thread
Anonymous Australia No.215701976 [Report] >>215702009 >>215702183
>>215697582
Lmao you had to be a complete karen or schizo retard to end up in those camps. It was like daycare for retarded adults.
That's how great this country is, in China they weld your door shut. In Australia you get sent to time out camp, get a bed and even get free food delivery.
Covid sent the borderline schizos right over the cliff so now you have AUSTRALIANS going around parroting trump. It's cringe as fuck, ask them anything about Australian politics, they don't know shit, but they can tell you what trump had for breakfast. Pathetic. Don't even dislike trump just hate how everyone merges them together, being anti-vax means you're pro trump or some retarded shit they think. Cringe.
Zoom Zoom United States No.215701978 [Report] >>215702135
>>215701580
>its just common of parents to sell their house and use the money to retire
Dang, that's becoming a thing there too? I thought among Euros it was far more common to hand down houses and estates gen to gen. I mean, fucking Drachenlord had a chalet to himself, so either your parents are either poorfags, sadly too Americabrained, or really fucking hate you for some reason.
>those countires are expensive af
Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria are expensive compared to Luxembourg or Western Europe?
>It is
Marry me temporarily and get U.S citizenship for a minute; I can show you just how awesome the life of an average American living in the urban Southwest is. You'll be begging to be back in Luxembourg in a week after you get robbed by a pack of niggers or assaulted by a fentanyl zombie for the first time.
>nicer, has more jobs, better people and lore affordable housing
>Scotland

I'm begging you to visit here and see for yourself how it is here. This "Anglo paradise" you speak of isn't even White, let alone Anglo nor a paradise and hasn't been for a few decades.
Zoom Zoom United States No.215702009 [Report]
>>215701976
>this pasta
Why did COVID turn Aussies into Canadians, it's really sad man
Anonymous Australia No.215702034 [Report] >>215702076
>>215701033
Australia's Covid policy only looks retarded with the hindsight of knowing it was harmless. At the time we kept out an unknown disease, kept the economy going and most states had virtually no restrictions whilst the rest of the world was in lockdown and scrambling for ventilators. We had far less deaths per capita and didn't trash our economy.
Zoom Zoom United States No.215702076 [Report] >>215702469
>>215702034
>At the time we kept out an unknown disease, kept the economy going and most states had virtually no restrictions whilst the rest of the world was in lockdown and scrambling for ventilators
Yeah but for no reason you people went insane in 2021, way more than even Canada. Early to mid 2020 AUS policy made sense, after that you went off into crazy town.
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215702135 [Report] >>215702467
>>215701978
>ur poor
Yeaj i work 10 hours per day and im still poor and will never be able to own anything, another proof that americans dont realize how good they have it
>Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria are expensive compared to Luxembourg or Western Europe
They dont hire westerners and are ugly shitholes. Again theres no point in wasting money going to dumps
>You'll be begging to be back in Luxembourg in a week after you get robbed by a pack of niggers or assaulted by a fentanyl zombie for the first time.
>this nigga think this doesnt happen in shitrope too + jihadis everywhere, unhinged africans wielding machetes, aks and rpgs
You wouldnt last an hour in any major yuropoor cities. I have been to the most dangerous cities in the western us and you guys litteraly cant suffer. Even ghetto crackhead niggers are wealthier than yuropoors
>I'm begging you to visit here and see for yourself how it is here. This "Anglo paradise" you speak of isn't even White, let alone Anglo nor a paradise and hasn't been for a few decades.
I have been to scotland, its whiter, prettier and nicer than anywhere in shitrope
Youre delusional and have no idea how much better the anglosphere is compared to the eu
Anonymous Israel No.215702183 [Report]
>>215701976
I feel like that's the case with all schizos, may people are like that here too, worshipping trump
Anonymous Chile No.215702198 [Report]
>>215697431 (OP)
I'd take any of these so called 'shitholes' in an instant
Anonymous United States No.215702233 [Report] >>215702358
>>215698525
>kek I literally moved to OZ from Germany.

>get job in mining because I need money
>have to fight tooth and nail to get entry level position because I'm not a citizen

how were you able to move to Australia without a job already secured?

I was recruited by a mining company in Western Australia (heavy machine operator) and I wanted to try working both Alaska and Australia mining seasons but the jobs required forced vaccinations for COVID and I decided to no longer look for work in AUS or NZ.

I don't have a university degree and all the recruiters I spoke to sounded like it was more trouble than its worth to get into Australia without a job lined up even from the US.
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215702358 [Report]
>>215702233
I would be interested as well.
Same with alaska btw. Getting a job over there was piss easy but being able to stay is another thing.
Zoom Zoom United States No.215702467 [Report] >>215702695 >>215703040
>>215702135
>You wouldnt last an hour in any major yuropoor cities.
There are individual American cities with more murders than entire EU countries. Every Euro when I was in the FFL thought I was fucking insane for staying at a hotel in the old port of Marseilles during my trip to join the FFL given it's the "murder capital of Western Europe", to which they then were further shocked when I told them Minneapolis (the big city closest to me growing up) was significantly more violent than Marseilles and I had a Dad that was in a gang in the 90s. Marseilles is near-universally considered the shittiest big city in Western Europe and I thought it was pretty much comparable to San Diego or Miami here, albeit with Nafris instead of Latinx.
>I have been to the most dangerous cities in the western us and you guys litteraly cant suffer.
You've never been to the actual rough parts of those cities even if you have, which I doubt. You've definitely never been to fucking Phoenix (and if you did you spent all that time in Scottsdale thinking it was "Phoenix") kek.
>Even ghetto crackhead niggers are wealthier than yuropoors
What does that have to do with anything? Poorfags in the U.S have no healthcare, insurance, or housing and spend most of their time either homeless and on drugs to cope or indebted to the point of slavery. They live way worse lives and have less opportunities than their Euro equivalents on nearly every level.
>its whiter, prettier and nicer than anywhere in shitrope
Yeah if you're a richfag who can afford to live in Fort William, tell that to fucking Angus MacDonald in Glasgow and he'll laugh in your face and call you a retard.
Anonymous Australia No.215702469 [Report]
>>215702076
Depends what state you were in. NSW and Victoria had the outbreaks and long lockdowns. WA, SA, QLD, NT and Tasmania had minor restrictions but they were slow to drop them as people wouldn't get vaccinated for a virus that only existed elsewhere.
Anonymous Luxembourg No.215702695 [Report]
>>215702467
>There are individual American cities with more murders than entire EU countries.
Thats because every european country categorizes all of its crime as terrorism.
You wouldnt last a single hour in any major shitropean city
Also
>is a supposed ffl member
>cant even spell the city where he did his basic training properly
Nice larp take your meds
>actual rough parts of those cities
Skid row felt safer than any western european capital cities and the people were nicer too.
Same with albuquerque and anchorage
America >>>>>>> shitrope
>Poorfags in the U.S have no healthcare, insurance, or housing
So theyre like middle class yuropoors then
>have less opportunities than their Euro equivalents on nearly every level.
They dont. They are richer and have better services than even middle class yuropoors. And they own houses which is out of reach for most the population here
>glasgow
Better than anywhere in western europe
Anonymous France No.215703040 [Report]
>>215702467
>wasting time and money travelling to the shittiest, ugliest and worst western country to enlist in the worst, most ill equipped and incompetent army in europe
Why would you do that
Id anything russia should nuke france and its joke of an "army"
Anonymous Australia No.215703895 [Report]
>>215698525
I fucking hate how nepotistic this country is. If you don't have connections, you're well below your peers from the very beginning