Please forgive me for using the term Mary Sue because I know it is often misused or thrown around. But I do not know any other way to explain this.

What I want to discuss is the writing of the official works, mainly the mangas and some of the games. For starters, character development in Touhou is noneexistent, anyone who has spent enough reading the mangas knows that the characters are mostly bad people, they have flaws that are not properly treated and we rarely get them getting what they deserve, as well as doing bad things without getting consequences. We already get some Mary Sues-que traits.

And there is also that Reimu in either LS or FDS got the ability to remove her hitbox from reality. Which makes her invincible. And Mizuchi who had a turn were she can possess anyone without them needing to drink the drink that was needed for them to get possessed.

In general, I want to discuss if the Touhou characters are really that badly written or the setting in general.

i fuck touhou

>>49596327 (OP)
Reimu is all powerful and cannot be conventionally beaten, but she is also kind of a bitch and disliked by a lot of people so I don't think she qualified. To be a true Mary Sue, everyone would also have to love her for no reason.

>Reimu
Yes.
>Mizuchi
Who?
>other characters
It depends on the character.

>>49596357
Leave Reimu to me.

>>49596327 (OP)
>anyone who has spent enough reading the mangas knows that the characters are mostly bad people, they have flaws that are not properly treated and we rarely get them getting what they deserve, as well as doing bad things without getting consequences
This is in line with sociopathic comedy that games and printworks often border on or straight up belong to.
>And there is also that Reimu in either LS or FDS got the ability to remove her hitbox from reality. Which makes her invincible. And Mizuchi who had a turn were she can possess anyone without them needing to drink the drink that was needed for them to get possessed.
It's shounen-esque, where bullshit powerlevels are a standard of a genre. Also, consider that every odd 2hu has overpowered ability, while every even a laughable one. Gensokyo was never meant to be balanced.
Because Touhou is a mixture of those two genres above (sociopathic comedy and shounen) with a smudge of pastoral I don't think there is even possibility of having Mary Sue character; overpowered, morally questionable people getting no proper comeuppance is simply in line with genres' premises. Or, rather, characters that aren't overpowered, morally flawed beings don't really have a reason to be in Touhou. You would need to have a character that is treated by narration as some moral paragon despite lack of moral backbone for her to maybe be called Mary Sue. Even Reimu doesn't fulfill that, however.

>>49596327 (OP)
Fans do the character development and ZUN destroy them with his shitty booking. Reimu is just boring like Super Cena in the PG era, appear, put something out of her ass, wins, leaves. MiMi got a free buff because ZUN can't write a proper heel and probably think a heel must be an unstoppable force to be credible. Memes aside ; Marisa getting the Vegeta treatment is not cool for the fans, Yukari have eldrich abilities and still job like a bitch! Like ZUN is trying to replace her with Okina! Alice told ZUN to go fuck himself and left the company, that's why she haven't reappeared in CDS. Even Flan is used as a jobber to the stars to show on how the characters are powerful!

>>49596357
>Reimu is all powerful and cannot be conventionally beaten

>>49596394
I agree with what you say but I also think that even if they do not fulfill the mary sue quota flawlessly, they are still badly written. What I said before is still true, there is no character development, depth of character and the flaws are not treated properly. If you saw a character like Reimu, that wins in everything, has no treated flaws and was friends with everyone in another franchise you do not like or even hate, what would you call her?

The problem is that we do not even know if the characters being bad people is even intentional or collateral of the creator bad writing.

>>49596412
What is exactly a jobber? Can you tell me please?

>>49597142
>Reimu, that wins in everything
Have you ever got bad (not 1CC) ending in mainline games?
>no treated flaw
But Touhou isn't about personal growth (not much at least, I remember that someone pointed out how Sanae actually changes in disposition across games she is in), this isn't hero's journey where Reimu needs to mature to raise to the challenge.
Besides, wouldn't removing Reimu's flaws (lazy, lust for money/attention, violence-prone) push her closer to Mary Sue?
>was friends with everyone
Everyone is somewhat friendly to Reimu, I don't think she reciprocates much, especially to some of youkai. As to why others are friendly to Reimu, I would wager it might to do with something about not wanting to get on the bad side of local law enforcement.

character wins? overpowered!
character loses? jobber!
character is good? tripe! shounenshit!
character is evil? sociopath! grimshit!
character has recurring flaws? no character development!
character doesn't have recurring flaws? mary sue!
character changes over time? retcon! zun is a hack!
character doesn't change over time? no progression! zun is a hack!

I, for one, quite like ZUN's writing. I find it more realistic and self-defining than a lot of the tropes some people are always trying to force it into. I guess you can't please everyone, but it's amazing how much complaining about it essentially comes down to "it's not such-and-such genre," when in reality you have no right to expect it to be.

>>49597142
It's a wrestling term to say loser, someone who lose on purpose in order to make the winner look good.

>>49596327 (OP)
>they have flaws that are not properly treated and we rarely get them getting what they deserve
This is a consequence of the setting and what these characters are. Gensokyo is, at its base, a nature preserve for supernatural beings that are, by their very natures, inimical toward, detrimental to or parasitic of mankind. It is quite literally what they are. They could not be anything else. This isn't a story about redeeming them; it's a story about them desperately clinging to existence in an artificial bubble. If their "flaws" were "properly treated," they'd quite literally poof into nothing.

You're essentially asking dwarves to stop being short and trim their beards.

>>49597297
Honestly I agree with you a lot in this. I think that you explained it properly. What I would like to see is, well, I do not know, some outside force trying to end them. It sounds too outlandish but we have to remember that there are the Lunarians and that one group of people who wanted to erase all youkai. And even if there is no outside force they could still face consequences like the Fortune Teller did.

>>49596327 (OP)
You don't know what a Mary Sue is.

>>49596327 (OP)
>they have flaws that are not properly treated
Falws are the only things they have. Not a single virtue.
>>49597297
Funny how if you'd say the exact thing 10-15 years ago you'd be shat on. Ain't that "character development".

>>49596327 (OP)
A mary sue goes well beyond being an OP character, dummy. In fact, you can be a mary sue while still being piss-weak.