Thread 50202874

Mostly want to continue the conversation from last thread. Though I'm open for other lore discussion as well.

Give me the lore on this guy

>>50202874 (OP)
That fucking ladder never ceases to bother me.
Why is it there? Where does it lead to?
>>50202881
Paranoid Doomposter. He got better

>>50202529
>Here's what gets me anon, I don't really care how you want to interpret the series but to have the sheer audacity to claim that other people are making the setting into some sort of playgound while being hyper fixated on a small part of the franchise is insane
Let me explain something here:
>while being hyper fixated on a small part of the franchise is insane
Here's the key part of this sentence:
>Small part

That is the difference and the reason why I can say, without shame, that waifufags are the once polluting Touhou. Even if you want to argue I am hyper fixated, and to a certain extent I won't even deny that. At least I am hyper fixated on something that is a part of the franchise. As opposed to most "fans" who are hyper fixated on something that is NOT part of the franchise.

>and you are just as willfully ignorant of the series tone and themes as they are.
Please. I actually have a basic understanding of the tone and themes. Your average waifufag not only has no understanding, they outright reject any understanding.

>Hell, at least waifufags (ideally) have a strong interest in exploring the characters from a narrative and real world inspiration standpoint,
No, they have a strong interest in exploring made up fanon ideas of the character that have no bearing on the actual character or the real world inspiration. You can disagree with my interpretation all you want, but at least they are actual interpretation based on the characters as they exist in canon. Not just shitty fanon memes.

>a thesis which has next to zero actual relevance to the stories told within the official works.
It's literally 80% of at least two of the manga.

>That's your ideal Touhou?
Absolutely not. But it's the best example, despite all of it's flaws. Because it does actually explore the themes of Touhou through the lens (AKA, just doing the plot of Mother 3). Unlike 99% of fangames, which do not.

>You are trying to twist Touhou into something it's not.
You can keep repeating that as much as you want. But I've actually discussed from the basis of canon. Not a single waifufag can actually do that.

>>50202898
*Through the lens of mother.

>>50202892
Somebody wanted to build a ladder to heaven.

>>50202905
But Heaven's closed!

Very random question but is it possible for a being to be half-youkai, half-god? Something that feed on both fear and worship rather than just one emotion.

>>50202910
Kanako. "Worship or I will curse you, lowly mortal. HEY, STOP MASTURBATING WHILE LOOKING AT ME!

>>50202910
isn't that just larva?

>>50202898
Bishoujo is just as much an element of Touhou as dark fantasy, arguably moreso since it so heavily informs the tone and direction of these stories. Look at practically any Touhou ending and you'll see the same thing, light and breezy fluff where everyone settles their differences with a tea party.
You keep saying shit but none of it has any semblance of depth or even self awareness. You talk about how you appreciate the game's themes but all you ever do is indulge in this pointless grimsokyo discussion with no end goal outside of proving how grim and serious your personal interpretation of the work is. That's just masturbation.

>>50202909
That's why it suddenly stopped.

>>50202910
>Very random question but is it possible for a being to be half-youkai, half-god?
In some versions Kintoki is actually the son of a mountain hag(Nemuno?) and the god of thunder.

>>50202910
Well gods can use fear in moderate amounts to ensure obedience, as long as worship remain the primary emotion.

>>50202933
Science buck breaks them doe.

>>50202920
Larva is implied to be a god that lost too much faith and became a fairy, specifically. Not exactly the same thing.

>>50201784
Look, Nork-san, we aren't getting nowhere. We could write a holy book at this point with our replies to each other, but its not fun anymore. Just know that you aren't right and are pushing a view of Gensokyo that isn't accurate to the more mainstream one
>Now show it compared to the actual past. Not 10 years ago.
Funny you say that, because the japanese government only admitted that they had a suicide problem very very recently
>Only two of those COULD be considered evil. Not all criminals or people holding a grudge are automatically evil, let alone deserving of death
Already adressed that in >>50199116. But the good news is that youkai are more likely to eat your average scumbag than a goody two shoes because apparently all that wickedness adds to the flavour
>>50201926
Because they are killing undesirables. If Yukari truly abducts people into Gensokyo, and evil people are the tastiest according to canon, then Yukari obviously must have a preference for that type of people, actually making the Outside World a favour
Anyway, have a nice day

>>50202978
REIMU IS TURKIHS????

>>50202892
>He got better
Noooooooo

>>50202921
>Bishoujo
A VERY broad term. Arguably not even entirely applicable to Touhou since it actually does very heavily appeal to women. Regardless, the most sexualized Touhou has ever gotten was the Tengu panty shots in one of the print works. And even then that actually had a context behind it. Using that as justification for turning all of Gensokyo into your own personal waifu heaven is fucking psychotic no matter how many Bishoujo influences you quote. At least two of the manga are actually about the human village. This isn't To Love Ru or Koihime†Musou.

>Look at practically any Touhou ending and you'll see the same thing, light and breezy fluff where everyone settles their differences with a tea party.
1: All of the endings being tea parties is mostly a meme. 2: The ending is not the entire story. In actual content Touhou is largely closer to something like a magical girl anime.

>You talk about how you appreciate the game's themes but all you ever do is indulge in this pointless grimsokyo discussion with no end goal outside of proving how grim and serious your personal interpretation of the work is.
1: This is a anonymous website. I engage in other arguments all the time. You just don't recognize me then. 2: The discussions are only pointless because of you. Your entire argument just comes down to: "Well, it's not that bad." Which, yes, sure. It's not as bad as being a peasant in the thirty year war. Congratulations, you have accomplished the bare minimum. Every single argument you have about why it's somehow better than the outside world is ludicrous, self defeating, and based on headcanons. 3: I have plenty of points behind my argument. In this very conversation the main thing I'm trying to prove is that you, or at least waifufags(You might not be one) are the cancer killing Touhou. In previous threads my main argument was mostly about how Reimu was spoiled. As well as pointing out that the human villagers deserve to be free. You, or at least somebody like you, turned that into a endless repeat of "Well, it's not that bad" rather than actually challenging any of my points.

>>50202978
>Just know that you aren't right
How? I'm fine with you not wanting to argue, but don't just randomly claim "You are wrong" if you don't want to explain it.

>and are pushing a view of Gensokyo that isn't accurate to the more mainstream one
Good, the mainstream view is shitty fan memes and glorified waifu slop. I'll take canon over both any day of the week.

>Funny you say that, because the japanese government only admitted that they had a suicide problem very very recently
You could be right about that, and it still wouldn't change the fact that your argument is seriously overblown.

>But the good news is that youkai are more likely to eat your average scumbag than a goody two shoes because apparently all that wickedness adds to the flavour
Youkai eat anybody they can get their hands on. At best you could argue Yukari is more likely to abduct criminal people. Either way: I actually believe in due process. So, this is still murder to me.

>Because they are killing undesirables
You forced me to do this, but that's: Literal straight up Nazi shit. Is that your defense of youkai? Comparing them to the one group of people that we were objectively correct to hunt down and whose death caused the world to be a objectively better place?

>>50203031
>Using that as justification for turning all of Gensokyo into your own personal waifu heaven is fucking psychotic
Strawman aside, it's no different than hyperfixating on the darker folk tale elements and declaring that is the true Touhou.
>This isn't To Love Ru or Koihime†Musou.
And it isn't Berserk either.
>All of the endings being tea parties is mostly a meme.
It really isn't. Obviously they aren't all tea parties but they're practically all two or more characters having a casual friendly conversation.
>In actual content Touhou is largely closer to something like a magical girl anime.
That's an even more vague category than bishojo.

>>50203064
>it's no different than hyperfixating on the darker folk tale elements and declaring that is the true Touhou.
Did I ever do that? I literally said last time: "Touhou is first and foremost a vessel for ZUN to make music".

>And it isn't Berserk either.
Not a good comparison either. Something like Fate Stay Night is probably closer, at least when the human village is concerned. Overall though, I would say it's mostly just Puyo Puyo.

>Obviously they aren't all tea parties but they're practically all two or more characters having a casual friendly conversation.
Friendly is debatable. Either way, like I said, endings aren't the entire game.

>That's an even more vague category than bishojo.
I would say it's less vague than Bishojo, frankly.

>>50203087
You refuse to acknowledge the light tone of the endings and then point at the game stories as if there are ever any consequences or actually moments. Show me a character actually dying on screen in a game. Anything dark is typically left off screen, because that's not something the series is all that interested in exploring.

>>50203112
>You refuse to acknowledge the light tone of the endings
I do not. I simply point out that a ending does not determine the whole story. Besides, a light tone is different from a story being dark. There are plenty of dark stories with light tones.

>and then point at the game stories as if there are ever any consequences or actually moments.
No, I'm pointing at the actual physical acts of playing the game. Which is anything but light and fluffy. That combination of elements is largely what defines Touhou.

>because that's not something the series is all that interested in exploring.
It's one of the key parts of at least two of the manga. As well as a major factor in most other print works. Even Alternative facts, which is mostly a joke, gets in on it.

>>50202920
>>50202961
If one takes the mythological origins of Lampads into account, it could be fairies and gods are one-in-the-same, it's just that fairies are what gods are, when they aren't worshiped as gods.

>>50203408
Stop stealing my ideas faggot.

The girls are cute and all that but uh I rather fly and spellcard duel In my self insert thank you very much. Women are nothing but trouble. 'Risa is pretty based though.

>>50202874 (OP)
I think it’s funny that people focus on the grimness of the village when the villagers aren’t even the ones getting the shit end of the stick, it’s the outsiders.

All talks about human/youkai relationships fall flat when youkai are only nice to the villagers because they need them. The outside humans are the ones that show how the youkai really treat people and go through the worst torture and death going by the lore.

>>50204356
The things is the outsiders can at least die on their own two feet instead of being oppressed in and forced to live in an open air zoo.

>>50204356
We don't even have evidence of outsider humans being tortured, even the darkest (non-canon) touhou media, DiPP, simply had the outsiders get hunted down and eaten for the most part.

>>50204371
>instead of being oppressed in and forced to live in an open air zoo.
I hope you aren't the anon who was sperging out about people having incorrect lore takes, because after saying something this stupid that'd be pretty embarrassing.

>>50202874 (OP)
So many male human villagers and yet none have flirted with Reimu, Maria, Byakuren, Sakura, Miko, Seiga, Miyoi or Mamizou(human disguise)?
Are they gay?

>>50204450
That's because villagers only like real Youkai women.

>>50204450
I think ZUN is too afraid that some nutcase fan would shoot him in the streets if he ever dared to touch the topic of romance in relation to a named character in canon works.

Do Youkai women prefer their human men to be 100% pure-blooded? Or are they also cool with half ones?

>>50204356
Anyone trying to be an advocate for the villagers is wasting their time; they're in on the kefayble enough to know how to game it just like everyone else is. It's the fairies and outsiders who have to deal with the blowback from Gensokyo's brutal systems.

>>50205667
True, fairies have it very rough being treated like the sock in an all-male dorm room by the villagers, but at least they usually forget it after. Meanwhile the outsiders get passed around like the communal dildo and they have to remember it.

how can the people of Human Village defend themselves against a youkai attack?

>>50204450
its pretty easy to say that youd fuck a youkai, but the notion of doing it is like doing it with an animal that can speak. its like the whole uncanny valley phenomena, you would think that there wouls be more half youkai around, but its beyond rare
>bykauren, miko, seiga
1 has ptsd from when humanity turned against her and sealed her in makai, also tries to keep appearances as a nun, even if she's shady
2 is a power hungry narcissist, will only marry if it served her goals, and so far, she won't be needing it soon, or ever
3 has quite the backstory involving marriage and being extremely unhappy in it, despite being treated fairly well. freedom is her true love
>Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya
1 wants to live a peaceful life without many changes, so far doesn't seem interested
2 is as independent as it gets
3 works for vampires, and also acts too much like a youkai, so she's unsettling
its not like the village is running low on cute women or anything, seeing kosuzu and akyuu

>>50202910
Because they are both very malleable creatures made out of human perception and some myths sort of overlap making the distinction even harder. Like how Kogasa seemingly is just a regular Tsukumogami but also taps into the myth of Ippondatara and is a great blacksmith.

>>50204371
>All talks about human/youkai relationships fall flat when youkai are only nice to the villagers because they need them.
I would say "Being nice" is given them too much credit. Otherwise, yes, outsiders do have it worse.

>>50204378
>We don't even have evidence of outsider humans being tortured,
Not exactly tortured. But PMISS does mention outsiders are typically kept as entertainment for a while before being killed. Make of that what you want.

>I hope you aren't the anon who was sperging out about people having incorrect lore takes, because after saying something this stupid that'd be pretty embarrassing.
No, that's me. Though he is 100% correct.

>>50204450
Nobody flirting with Reimu and Marisa really makes no sense. I get they are kind of weird outsiders. But they are clearly trusted by the general community.

Also Kosuzu would probably be married off if this was a traditional society.

>>50204504
Pretty much. A shame since it makes the main characters and the human villagers come across as very sexless.

>>50205667
>they're in on the kefayble enough to know how to game it just like everyone else is
Are they? Because a lot of the more recent manga implies they aren't.

>>50205681
>Have to remember it
For the few seconds of life they have left after the youkai gets bored of them.

>>50205990
>is a power hungry narcissist, will only marry if it served her goals, and so far, she won't be needing it soon, or ever
I also imagine her having a female body now means she probably won't be as open to it.

>has quite the backstory involving marriage and being extremely unhappy in it, despite being treated fairly well. freedom is her true love
Her not being kind of a whore is weird, frankly. She seems like a girl that loves one night stands.

> wants to live a peaceful life without many changes, so far doesn't seem interested
She does actually. Just, nobody seems to ask.

>is as independent as it gets
Same as reimu. Honestly think she would have a lot of fanclubs in the human village.

>works for vampires, and also acts too much like a youkai, so she's unsettling
Yeah. Youmu is more likely.

>its not like the village is running low on cute women or anything, seeing kosuzu and akyuu
Both of which are also single. Same for Keine.

>>50206021
>Nobody flirting with Reimu and Marisa really makes no sense
Most men like nice, demure women and those two are anything but.

>>50206041
>Most men like nice, demure women and those two are anything but.
Very debatable if that would still be the case in Gensokyo. Either way, there would be enough people that either want to be Marisa or want to move up in the world by marrying Reimu.

>>50205990
>byakuren
>has ptsd from when humanity turned against her
Byakuren turned against humanity, first by pursuing forbidden magic to escape her mortality (granted, the reason was very human, but still), then by facilitating the deaths of innocent humans by posing as a youkai exterminator, only to aid youkai instead. PTSD my ass. She's suffering from tremendous thanatophobia due to her brother's death, but that's about it. Didn't mean she had to resort to murder over it, but she still did. Her sealing was an act of self-defence on "humanity's" part.
>miko
>power hungry narcissist
Which is why she readily left a country she'd been governing behind, then gave up the notion of ruling the Human Village with little more than a shrug, right? Oh, and she lives in isolation of her own devising and wishes because she's just that power hungry, right? What nonsense.

>>50206119
I don't think it was mentioned anywhere in canon that Byakuren is a murderer. Although I've seen some pretty interesting doujin works with that premise, it sort of goes against her entire ideology and also I don't think Shou or Nazrin would be with her if that was the case.

>>50206033
>She does actually.
>Same as reimu.
nah, these two are as aromantical as it gets, especially marisa
>Yeah. Youmu is more likely.
youmu is a hyper violent retard who would be a serial killer if yuyuko didn't have her on a leash

>>50206119
are you that nork guy?
>Byakuren turned against humanity
byakuren was exterminating youkai, the irredemable ones, while trying to aid the ones that had some hope going for them. humans didn't like it that she was aiding some youkai when they found out, so they sealed her in makai. they turned on her
>What nonsense.
her whole thing is that she's planning to return as a taoist messiah to the Outside World when the time comes. you might not understand it because you're going to die in a few decades, but miko has centuries and centuries of existence ahead of her, so she can be more patient. ruling the human village, in the grand picture, was just a pet project she abandoned pretty quickly when she saw it was not worth it

>>50206041
Marisa is nice

>>50204356
>it’s the outsiders.
i always thought this was very stupid in the long run, Gensokyo is one anointed outsider murder away to being discovered and having an Inter-Realm diplomatic catastrophe. if not outright getting purged. and yes outsiders not only implies outside world humans, but also Hell denizens, Makai, lunarians, anything that is not Gensokyan...

>>50206129
>nah, these two are as aromantical as it gets, especially marisa
We see them get flustered at the sight of a couple.

>youmu is a hyper violent retard who would be a serial killer if yuyuko didn't have her on a leash
Sounds like Ushi from FGO. Aka: Perfect wife material.

>>50206381
Cute and canon homosexuals.

>>50206126
She helped dangerous Youkai get away. Most likely allowing them to murder people elsewhere.

>>50206181
>are you that nork guy?
Nope. That's me.

>byakuren was exterminating youkai, the irredemable ones, while trying to aid the ones that had some hope going for them.
I don't think it was ever said she had any standards. She saved Murasa, who is largely irredeemable.

>was just a pet project she abandoned pretty quickly when she saw it was not worth it
She mostly wants to rule with actual consent.

>>50206395
>She helped dangerous Youkai get away. Most likely allowing them to murder people elsewhere.
Ah, that makes more sense. although I don't think that's what the other guy meant, nor what is meant to be implied in canon.

>>50206181
>they turned on her
Anon, please. Byakuren is far from innocent, and the retribution she invited was, as a matter of fact, invited. Think about it for a second. At best she swindled those who believed her supposedly priestly word and employed her services. At worst her actions led to the deaths of those she swindled either immediately or down the line. All the while being motivated by entirely human and very understandable fears. This hypocrisy is what makes her character interesting (if detestable) and fun to observe. Please don't try to take it away from her.

>>50202910
I think so. Fantasy things exist on belief of some kind, it can even be some fucked up buddhist "I believe I don't exist, therefore I can believe myself to exist" that Byakuren is peddling as the alternative to human fear. In fact, her temple's inhabitants solidify their existence with a combination of acting according to their base nature and buddhism.
I don't see worship being radically different. Sayaka is a self-proclaimed atheist, and I think there have been other hints that there's not that clear of a difference between youkai and gods.

>>50204356
That stuff is vaguer so it's harder to argue about, but I agree. The charitable interpretation is that both the village and a steady supply of outsiders are absolutely necessary to ensure the fantasy beings don't fade away. A modern civilization and a scientific mind are kryptonite for fantasy, so keeping the village as is at least makes sense.

Many of the fantasy beings have reinvented themselves to fit their new situation, like Kanako becoming a god of progress, the buddhism experiments in the Byakuren temple, and implications that the cute girl appearances are already an adaptation from the man-eating days. Is it *really* necessary for some youkai to keep eating people?

>>50206395
>I don't think it was ever said she had any standards.
byakuren was very willing to rip mizuchi's head off in the manga, that implies something
>She saved Murasa, who is largely irredeemable
was largely irredeemable*
>She mostly wants to rule with actual consent
doesnt change the facts
>>50206486
>Anon, please
don't 'please' me. is byakuren innocent? no, we all know that she should have killed youkai like murasa first chance, no redemption allowed. did she mess up at some point when a youkai took advantage of her good will? yes, absolutely. but the main reason why she was sealed in makai was because she was playing two sides, and humanity wasn't having it. the wiki is somewhat clear about this. nowadays, she's respected by the villagers of gensokyo to some extent, so her message of coexistence isnt that bad or undesirable when it undergoes the right way. its up to you if you think byakuren's goals, as selfish and dangerous as they are, are worth pursuing or not

>>50206951
> nowadays, she's respected by the villagers of gensokyo to some extent, so her message of coexistence isnt that bad
Well duh, everyone in Gensokyo is more or less following her lead in that regard as much as they can without breaking the system, even if it outwardly goes against the spirit of what Human/Youkai relations are supposed to be.
Kind of like how the Lunarians' most detestable aspects are the fact they interpret morality along the lines of not getting the icky sin-juice that is kagare all over them while sinning, instead of realizing that the kagare is there to discourage sin to begin with.

>>50206884
>Is it *really* necessary for some youkai to keep eating people?
It was never necessary. Youkai do it because they like it.

>Sayaka is a self-proclaimed atheist,
I honestly tend to assume that's her talking from a western perspective. Like "None of these Kami are actually the capital G god.

>>50207833
Correction, the Kappa did it because they were dumb.

>>50207025
> nowadays, she's respected by the villagers of gensokyo to some extent, so her message of coexistence isnt that bad
Villagers are all over the place about religion. Alternating between general adhere and not giving a shit like a stereotype of modern Japanese people.

>>50207842
The Kappa are fucking comedically retarded considering there is literally a salt merchant in gensokyo.

Fine! If you don't want me to please you then I'll just stop replying.

>>50207899
You can never be Nork's friend like I am.
Weep, rot, and decompose.

>>50207833
>I honestly tend to assume that's her talking from a western perspective
more likely she's atheist as in 'i don't follow, or pray to, no god', like how ancient greeks defined atheism, which is basically to deny worship to the gods, rejecting them. modern atheism, whose definition comes from late 16th France, are actually antitheists, AKA people that directly oppose the gods

>>50207988
The modern, western definition of atheism comes from the biblical idea that by not following the 'true' god, you're in direct opposition to him. That's why you don't hear the term antitheism much in the west

>>50207988
That's also certainly possible.

My dumb headcanon is that Remilia, as well as all vampires, are actually created by Satan so it makes sense Sakuya would be a old school atheist like that.

>>50208166
Christianity isn't canon to Touhou.

>>50207988
Which is kind of suspect when her treatment of Remilia is worship in all but name, much like how the difference between ancestor worship and the veneration of saints is basically semantics even though the former is considered tantamount to Paganism to your average Christian.
>>50208166
Vampires seem like a candidate for a Youkai type that was made by the Lunarians to test the limits of youkaidom, possibly by artificially altering Oni essence and injecting it into people like they were the Greys.

>>50208196
>Which is kind of suspect when her treatment of Remilia is worship in all but name
Being devoted to someone isn't the same as worshipping them, unless you're bringing the old theory of Remilia mind controlling Sakuya to serve her
>Vampires seem like a candidate for a Youkai type that was made by the Lunarians
Again with the whole lunarians creating youkai thing?

>>50208170
You're absolutely right, if you ignore Seiga referencing Christ, Rumia referencing Christ, Sanae having a spell card that references a biblical story, and Christmas canonically leaking into Gensokyo.
Now, you could say that Christianity is a lie in Touhou, which would probably be correct, but it does very obviously exist.

>>50208216
Obviously they didn't create *all* Youkai as demons predated their ascension from mortality, but it isn't a leap of logic that they could had artificially made a few of the varieties roaming Earth now given what they did to the moon rabbits, and it makes more sense Kaguya would get that idea to begin with if it was something they were actively doing.

>>50208216
>Being devoted to someone isn't the same as worshipping them
The clause for idolatry is basically there to say that devoting your life to anything to the same degree as God that isn't actually God is cringe and unhealthy, and can arguably cover all cases of paganism on its own as they fall under the umbrella of "fallible, imperfect things."
Only Literal Perfection is worthy of unconditional devotion.

>>50208170
Aya has a conspiracy theory that gensokyo is kinda like Noah's ark and getting mad at Seiga for dressing up like Santa Claus and breaking into people's houses to steal things and people mistaking her for the tengu god sarutahiko

>>50208236
>as demons predated their ascension from mortality,
The Lunarians are all gods, the only possibly non-god Lunarian we know of is Kaguya and in TH20 they're referenced as "the gods that arrived from Takamagahara" in Yuiman's profile. Even before this people theorisied that like in japanese mythology, the heavenly gods originated in Takamagahara. The Lunarians were heavenly gods from Takamagahara, who then left earth and went to the moon.
>given what they did to the moon rabbits,
Enslave them? I agree that they probably created some youkai, but how does enslaving the moon rabbits factor into that?
>>50208256
It's not a half-bad theory, albeit for reasons Aya doesn't know. In the future Maribel is a nihilist while Renko is a person who searches for immortality. Considering Maribel is the one in love with Gensokyo I don't think its a stretch to say that Maribel is a person who doesn't have faith in the outside world and would try to use Gensokyo as a Noah's ark, while Renko would instead stay in her time and try to make a new, better, future for the outside world,

>>50208245
Seriously, man, there are more meanings to words aside from religious ones

>>50208262
The Moon Rabbits used to be physically just rabbits before the Moonies altered them into rabbit girls. In fact, the majority of them probably still are, and they only get a human shape when it's needed as part of their task.

>>50208271
Lunarian men have desires and bunny girls are created to help with their more lustful needs

>>50208263
Ask yourself this: is there anything in the world that would make Sakuya defy Remilia, short of being ordered by her specifically?
If not, Sakuya idolizes Remilia beyond the realms of logic and rationality, falling into religious, or at least philosophical levels of reverence.

>>50208262
>The Lunarians are all gods
Weren't them a type of celestials, and viceversa? And yes, there are lunarian gods in the sense they live there and are affiliated to them
>>50208236
Why would Kaguya have to theorize about her people doing this or that? Shouldn't she, as a high ranking lunarian, absolutely know it?

>>50208282
Well Celestials come from Bhavaagra, which is in heaven. Takamagahara is also (probably) in heaven. So while you could say they're both heavenly gods, they aren't the same type of heavenly god. Celestials are people who have reached Bhavaagra.
The exact make up of heaven isn't known, but it probably somewhat follows the notion of the Buddhist three realms. The realm of desire (Mortal realm), realm of forms (probably the place in heaven where Bhavaagra is as its inhabitants don't have wordly desires but do have forms), and the formless realm where there is no physical matter.
Although I'm not sure if Takamagahara would be in the realm of forms or formlessness. Either way the gods we today know as the Lunarians probably had to give up their heavenly-ness(?) in order to descend down to earth in the first place.

>>50208279
I don't see how do you have the need to bring this topic. Are you implying that Sakuya is not, by religious definitions, and atheist, and instead she's worshipping Remilia, just by doing her job? She doesn't have a shrine dedicated to her or anything, she's just exceptionally good at her job (ignoring that time she almost got her mistress and herself sucked into outer space when they were in that rocket ship)

>>50208219
I go with the more charitable idea that the Church was one of the few religious institutions that genuinely had its followers' best interests at heart, but still collapsed under its own sin because to actually deal with the countless scandals and corruptions it had incurred would result in nothing less but widespread international conflict, and that it lets unsavory individuals ruin the lives of untold innocents on a daily basis to keep the peace makes a funny parallel to Gensokyo's system.

>>50208293
Oka but I mean there's a difference between those two and those who are plainly called gods, right?

>>50208302
There's all sorts of gods, but they're all gods, in a sense. What is and isn't a god can be messy in touhou. But the Lunarians we have seen are all (except for Kaguya) called gods.
Heck Tewi qualifies as a god due to having her own shrine in the outside world.

Actually thinking about it, Sariel existing at least implies that Judeo-Christian angels exist in the Touhou universe. If you really wanted to make Christianity work in that context, you could say these angels are akin to the Shinto gods we see in Touhou, and then just keep it ambiguous as to if they actually follow some all powerful true God or if it's just a sham they perpetuate to consolidate spiritual power.
That's the only way I could see Christianity working in Touhou without just entirely misrepresenting Christianity like TLC did.

>>50208315
Maybe it's just a semantic thing, them looking like gods to us? After all, excluding the moon gods that left Earth, all lunarians are/descend from humans who went to the moon
>>50208323
Don't think too much about it. Christianity, and therefore, abrahamanism at large, are real and canon to Touhou, just with important things to consider, things that would get you in a pile of burning wood back in the day, like Yahweh being just another god no different than others

>>50208342
>like Yahweh being just another god no different than others
That itself would mean that Christianity isn't true in the Touhou universe. You can't really fold the Christian belief system into such a belief structure like Shinto and expect it to hold up, especially when a core tenant of it is "our God created everything and your god is a false god." Like I said, if you wanted to preserve Christianity as much as possible in the context of Touhou without going straight for the "Christians are wrong" angle, you'd have to keep it ambiguous.

>>50208342
That depends on your definition of God; is Yahweh perfect because he is God, or is God perfect because He is Yahweh?
It could be that the Buddhist*/Gnostic position is the canon one to Tohuou, that there exists an Omnipotent, Omnienevolent being, but He was not involved in creation, which would make the Christians mistaken, yet not entirely incorrect.
What is certain is that there are seemingly arbitrary mechanics in like Kagare that not even the Lunarians fully understand, implying the existence of something beyond their weight class sculpting the universe.

*Depending on the sect.

I figure that they aren't all that important in Gensokyo given how Christianity is the most followed religion in the world and the whole point of Gensokyo is to accept the forgotten and discarded

Celestials are Taoists and come from the jade emperor's court an administrator overseeing a celestial bureaucracy.
The jade emperor is also the one who created the elixir of immortality and gave it to Houyi, but his wife, Chang'e drank it instead.

>>50208367
>given how Christianity is the most followed religion in the world
Ironically, given Christianity's history in Japan, a Japanese martyr showing up in Gensokyo would make perfect sense.

>>50208236
i wouldn't trust kaguya, or any lunarian for that matter. we know, thanks to patchouli, that magic is a science native to the (multi?)universe of the setting, and the princess declared at one point that the moonies were the ones that created it. what its likely is that kaguya was so isolated prior gensokyo, that she believed that everything must have come from lunar capital in one way or the another
it would be really funny if a magician who saw the lunarians leaving earth, and survived the celestials nuking it, to furiously refute that claim

>>50208357
A misunderstanding of Judaeo-Christian philosophy. A closer translation to their anal-retentiveness over idolatry and worship is that only a being that fits the Platonic Ideal of perfection is worthy of the level of subordination implied by religious worship.
If your god is fallible, then giving them unlimited subordination will eventually result in catastrophic failure, even if that failure takes eons to manifest, because they by definition cannot prepare for all eventualities like an omnipotent being can.

Which was at odds with how religion generally worked in Rome where Christianity gained the most traction during its early years; for all those people who actively idolized them, just as many prayed to the Olympians not necessarily out of real devotion, but so nothing bad would befall them by mistake or indifference.
The Christian perspective takes these things really, really seriously, and it's best to think of it as a path to enlightenment only enlightenment happens to be a thinking being that loves you.

>>50208381
>thanks to patchouli, that magic is a science native to the (multi?)universe of the setting, and the princess declared at one point that the moonies were the ones that created it.
Those aren't mutually exclusive statements. Magic always existed, but the "modern" concept and practice of magic started with the Lunarians.

>>50208372
The thing is that in Japan Christianity is not in the realm of the forgotten.
Amakusa Shirō is very well known and even feared.

>>50208395
I'm not necessarily speaking about Amakusa Shiro, in the purging of Christians from the Japanese islands a great deal many practitioners were executed for their beliefs (making them martyrs) and were subsequently lost to history. And while Christianity isn't completely gone from Japan, it's far less prominent than other religions which also have a foothold in Gensokyo.

>>50208357
Ok, fair enough. Just want to add that it wasn't until neoplatonism fused with christianity that the Idea of Good (The One) and Yahweh became the same thing, so traditionally Yahweh was really another god, this even seen in the Bible
>>50208358
>That depends on your definition of God; is Yahweh perfect because he is God, or is God perfect because He is Yahweh?
I don't know
>What is certain is that there are seemingly arbitrary mechanics in like Kagare that not even the Lunarians fully understand, implying the existence of something beyond their weight class sculpting the universe.
But that follows a god of the gaps argument

>>50208402
Considering how many Christians Japan has had for prime ministers despite the number of them in Japan. I'd still say it isn't in the realm of the forgotten.
Oda Nobunago and Date Masamune though not a Christians were known to seek their advice and knowledge. both were very favorable to Christianity with Masaume even sending out a Christian Japanese envoy to the Vatican.

>>50208423
Cool, I guess you're right Christianity is the biggest religion in Japan, no wonder it's out here and Buddshits and Shitno are stuck in Gensokyo.

>>50208402
God remembers them.

(((Judeo-Christian)))

>>50208438
Imagine the sex with this fumo.

>>50208395
Funnily enough, Christianity in Japan is steadily rising albeit not at a really fast rate. Shame it has to be a part of a globohomo plot to flood them with jeets

>>50208428
never said it was the biggest religion in Japan. just pointing out that it is far from being forgotten. as for the buddhism the buddhism presented in gensokyo is from an esoteric branch called shingon that used to the the biggest branch in Japan. as for Shinto it only makes sense that Shinto would be in the place of its origin.
It should be noted even Reimu uses taoist ying-yang orbs even though taoism isn't very big in japan. It is very strange how much taoism influenced japan Most Japanese magic rituals are based off Taoism like onmyōdō, shigandang, shugendō, even the widely practiced ritual of setsubun (節分) where chanters repeat "Demons out! Luck in!" has its base in taoism.
Taoist fulu charms became ofuda in Shinto.
zun admits he doesn't know much about Taoism or Christianity.

>>50208294
>Are you implying that Sakuya is not, by religious definitions, and atheist
NTA but he is into something, atheism in his purest form is impossible in any sentient being, it just get transferred to anything not-god or superstitions

>>50208393
the human precursors of the lunarians had to know their fair share of magic to reach the moon, become immortal, and more, not to mention the open supernatural stuff that must have existed in earth alongside them, which clearly implies that there was already a disciplinary practise of magic. so no, lunarians starting its practise is either propaganda, or they discovered a specific type of use of magic, unshareable by their law with non lunarians, that they consider absolute and call any other outside it undeserving of mention among them

>>50208467
Ok, but does Sakuya worship the likes of Amaterasu, Zeus, or Yahweh? No? Then she's godless, an atheist by definition

>>50208472
it makes more sense when you realize that the lunarians are just a type of xian from taoism

>>50208467
It is possible, it just requires a harder-line stance than most people who call themselves Atheists are willing to commit to. For instance, most Atheists believe Ramses II and Caesar existed, even though they were considered gods pre- and post- mortem in their time.
Atheism as we know it is usually used as a shorthand as a disbelief in the supernatural, which definitely does not describe Sakuya.

>>50208482
that helps my statement in that there was already an understanding of magic long before they reached the moon. after all, hermits and magicians only differ in their methods to practise magic

>>50208480
Bad definition then...the Ussr also was by doctrine materialistic atheist, but still make the state take religious and dogmatic characteristics.
the funny thing is that even the elite pushers for atheism, dont even believe themselves, they usually are Crowleans or transhumanistic technocrats. it makes you think that the faithless of Maribel and renko time could be engineered

>>50208504
>but still make the state take religious and dogmatic characteristics.
The very same regime that christians at the vatican critized for being atheistic? Nobody worships the state, nobody expects the state to perform a miracle for them. As far as definitions go, Sakuya isn't following any religion centered around any god, so she's atheistic. Come on, it's just semantics at this points, we are discussing for the sake of it at this point?

>>50208529
>Nobody worships the state, nobody expects the state to perform a miracle for them
guess you haven't heard of communism or legalism(Chinese philosophy) then.

>>50208294
>She doesn't have a shrine dedicated to her or anything
Sakuya is stated to hunt people on her own volition in order to serve Remilia meals made to look like innocuous pastries every day.
A daily ritual, if you will.

>>50208279
>>50208294
In spite of the fandom liking to portray Sakuya as a sycophant to the Scarlets, I think we don't know enough about Sakuya's headspace to determine if she's devoted to Remilia to a level of idolatry, a good friend of hers' that would still act rationally if ordered to do something stupid like kill herself, or just really professional about being a maid, which is in itself would be a philosophy akin to Taoism, yet not strictly-speaking religious.
Sakuya still fails the atheism benchmark because she believes in the existence of Sanae.

>>50208544
>hunt people
*cooking people, FTFY. I seriously hope at least sakuya wasn't a vampire hunter, that level of treachery against a holy office and humanity should land her at the electric chair.

>>50208536
Not religions, you smartass
>>50208544
Somebody working a 9-5 means they are performing a ritual to their god, the CEO of the company. Totally theistic.
>>50208559
Valid and reasonable response

>>50208573
It was with State Shinto and other forms of statolatry such as in North Korea

>>50208472
>the human precursors of the lunarians had to know their fair share of magic to reach the moon
They were divinity of some rank, seemingly similar to a being like Yuiman (a god human). There seems to be a very specific distinction between magic and divine powers in Touhou, at the very least characters like Kanako seem to treat the two as such.
Not everything supernatural is of the type of magic that characters such as Marisa or Patchouli practice.

>>50208544
>Sakuya is stated to hunt people
I'm going to need a source on that statement.

>>50208595
>They were divinity of some rank
nowhere its that stated. all entries say that the antecessors of lunarians were humans
>There seems to be a very specific distinction between magic and divine powers in Touhou, at the very least characters like Kanako seem to treat the two as such.
right, but would you separate the magic that hermits and magicians use? thats the thing here, kaguya said explictly that lunarians invented magic, and this is not true, they already had some big notion of magic before leaving earth. if there were hermits before lunarians were born, then there were also magicians who studied magic using their own ways for it

>>50208627
>nowhere its that stated.
>Even though Princess Yuiman had the same rank of divinity as the People of the Moon, after the gods built their capital city on the moon, they continued to bind her to the Earth and make her labor for the People of the Moon.
This wording would imply that they were of the same rank of divinity as Yuiman before they created the moon capital.

>>50208634
they were the same as yuiman when they were already established there

>>50208559
I think it was in SSiB but when Remilia tells her to get her too the moon, Sakuya says no, explaining that it falls outside of her duty as a maid.
Although other times like in the cross reviews her devotion can be tinged with a bit of motherlyness. I.E hating Seija since she thinks she'll be a bad influence on the sisters.
I can't find but the panel right now but it was probably pretty early on in the comic. Or maybe in conflating it with a Sakuya moment in another manga, who knows...

>>50208634
>>50208644
ok, sorry, i forgot that lunarians are also considered gods, you are right. still my point stands that lunarians didn't create magic

>>50208688
You have no point, just pure speculation.
Touhou lore discussion on this site is such fucking shit, everybody just throws out their head canon like it's fact, nobody ever bothers backing anything up.

>>50202874 (OP)
>touhou lore thread
>it's all headcanon anyway
lol

>>50210265
trvth nvke

>>50202881
he married Human!Reisen after that FS chapter

>>50208691
Sorry to butt in, but that other anon's speculation might not be too far off target. According to what little bits of lore we know, which are most of the time pure speculation on the characters part, like PMISS, there was fully observable, and understandable magic 'pre-lunarian' times. Lunarians are explicitly close related to hermits, being xians like an anon mentioned before, so they had to already know (hermit) magic before moving into the Moon. I think that's the magic Kaguya's mentioning, the one used by the hermits, and not the ones used by the likes of Patchouli. We can deduce that this magic that lunarians
originated was the one that the hermits-that-would-be-lunarians, practised before moving to the Moon. Kaguya would be correct in that sense.

>>50210958
What's the different between Celestials and Lunarians?

I just checked the line in question, in both English and Japanese. Kaguya specifically says that magic is the moon's power, not necessarily the lunar people's power (though by transitive property, if you believe the moon belongs to the lunar people then that would technically be their "power"). Given that the connection between magic and the moon is made several other places in Touhou, that's not an unreasonable statement.

>>50210999
The Lunarians are from Takamagahara, the Celestials from Bhavaagra.

>>50208271
Tewi and the earth rabbits in IN can also take on human forms, so I don't think it's anything special. Sure we don't have proof of lunar rabbits being able to transform into humanoid forms before the Lunarians took over the moon, but I think it's a bit of a leap in logic to assume the Lunarians gave them that abillity.
Especially when the earth rabbits, who are genetically descended from the moon rabbits can do the same as long as their youkai.

>>50211069
But the Moon is not the same as Takamagahara right? I feel like it is more connected to the Dragon Palace instead.

>>50211069
Tewi and the earth rabbits can do it due to being beast youkai who managed to survive a century as rabbits, while the Moon rabbits are stated to not be youkai in the strictest sense in spite of their supernatural abilities. The most obvious explanation is that the Lunarians taught and/or used magic on them, unless they somehow figured out how to do that stuff on themselves.

>>50210999
This is how I viewnit. If you check the Xian article in wikipedia, you can take some interesting information about how they get to become what they are. It includes mysticism and ascetism, but also alchemy as well. You can say that they are using their own science to help themselves reach their status, right?
Meanwhile, celestials are more related to buddhism. They either reach their status through reaching nirvana, or, in the Hinanawi clan's case, getting invited to Heaven. Their ascension is more based on feats of faith and virtue.
In general terms, a xian (lunarian) could have not been virtuous and yet reach ascension (the tao can be used for bad purposes, this exemplied with Seiga), while celestials have to try to be as good as possible. That's how I see it
>>50211064
Good catch, thank you.

According to Komachi Onozuka, celestials are not truly immortal. Instead, they continually extend their lifespans by defeating the shinigami that regularly come for them.
Tenshi, who was made to leave Heaven when she consumed the elixir that was prepared for a banquet (an elixir that she mistook for bad-tasting dumplings), so it seems that a celestial can be banished from Heaven if there is reason to do so.

In Taoism and Chinese mythology, a tianxian is a "Heavenly Immortal" or "Celestial Immortal".
It is the highest of the five classes of immortals, superior to human, spirit, earthly, and ghost immortals.

Tian (Heaven)
Xian (Immortal)
Tianzun (Celestial Worthies) this is considered the highest form in taoism

>>50208357
>Christianity isn't true in the Touhou universe
none of the religions that appear in touhou are accurate to the real world beliefs, because we know how the world of touhou works and while it takes from the cosmology of several different religions, it's not 100% accurate to any of those.

>>50211091
Well the Lunarians did leave earth for the moon, so it would be.
>Heavenly gods descend to earth from Takamagahara
>They leave earth for the moon, no longer welcome in Takamagahara and become the Lunarians.
During the second part is probably when they recruited others like Sagume who have split heavenly/earthly lineage and thus weren't born in Takamagahara. Maybe they also recruit humans around this time, they also probably seal Daikoku and Ariya around this time as well, or possibly earlier when they descended.

>>50211069
Celestials are also from Earth. They made Heaven by pulling out a giant keystone, wiping out all life on Earth at the time in the process.
This all happened before even Eirin was born, making the Celestials the oldest known extant civilization within Touhou.

The Lunar Capital was established because Tsukuyomi freaked out when he realized that the impurity on Earth would cause him to decay and eventually die, so he took his closest relatives with him to the Moon, where they built a new home to avoid kegare, though it does not appear they're fully capable of avoiding it entirely, so trace elements still appear, and they actively design systems to counteract it, such as recruiting Ariya (failure), using Kaguya (failure), the facility within Mount Asama Joue (eventual failure because we shitposted it into oblivion), and possibly Chang'e (crazy bitch).
So we can probably assume that within Touhou, Takamagahara was still bound to Earth, rather than being a pure heavenly realm, unless you want to argue that Tsukuyomi and cohorts were kicked out of Heaven, which does not appear to fear kegare like the Lunarians do, and do not feel the need to isolate themselves.

But ultimately, everything about the Lunar Capital is just a hodgepodge of elements ZUN threw together without putting much thought into it after he decided he wanted to have Kaguyahime but also tie it into Japanese mythology, particularly focusing on Omoikane, so I don't think it's ever going to truly make sense. It might well be that some Japanese gods thought they were too good for Earth, so they stole some peaches and tried to make their own Heaven on the moon, with blackjack, and rabbit hookers.

Zun says the moon represents China while hell represents America

>>50212695
I think that's fitting a round peg into a square hole, Takamagahara being on earth is weird. Touhou even moves the dragon palace from the bottom of the sea to the moon to account for mythos, besides if not heaven, where would the heavenly gods descend from? What would even make them heavenly in contrast to the earthly gods if they're also from earth?
I think the gods from Takamagahara weren't allowed back to heaven due to how they had become tainted by impurity and thus they took over the moon and made the lunar capital. Even if impurity isn't a threat to the celestials, they still turn their nose up at the impure.

>>50205695
the truth is the yokai themselves wouldn't allow an attack on the human village.
humans are necessary to their continued existence.

>>50212743
It's not that strange when one considers the Lunarians' tendency to lie through their teeth; being from another world sounds more impressive than being right down the street from Shangri-La and Prester John's, and their own description of their journey would be a major account of poetic license to elevate something that was likely far more mundane and far less sophisticated in practice.

>>50212743
>Touhou even moves the dragon palace from the bottom of the sea to the moon to account for mythos
Only within the context of Urashima Taro, in which it wasn't even that there was a Dragon Palace on the moon, so much as Toyohime just making up the excuse that the Lunar Capital *was* the mystical Dragon Palace to draw attention away from the existence of people on the moon, since they're determined to remain hidden.
But there's also a strong implication that there is a *real* Dragon Palace, which is far more connected to Heaven and the Celestials, which sends messengers to Earth to warn them of earthquakes and the like.
>I think the gods from Takamagahara weren't allowed back to heaven due to how they had become tainted by impurity and thus they took over the moon and made the lunar capital. Even if impurity isn't a threat to the celestials, they still turn their nose up at the impure.
We know very little about Heaven, but from what we do know, they don't really care.
There are low-ranking celestial maidens (not to be confused with proper Celestials) who go to Earth to get married and return when they get bored, and while it's considered gauche, there is no hint that there is any consequence for them other than having to write an apology if they lose their veil.
They also keep a modicum of contact with the surface people, unlike Lunarians, as we see with the elixir Tenshi ate, which was intended for hermits they invited, as well as there being stories of Celestials going down to Earth just to say something cryptic and leave.
If they can accept that, then a group of them leaving for a little should be easily accepted back in, especially since they carry minimal amounts of kegare.
>besides if not heaven, where would the heavenly gods descend from?
I dunno, some mountain? A flying castle that doesn't go high enough to truly avoid Earth? As long as they "descended" from somewhere, their claims would technically be correct.
>What would even make them heavenly in contrast to the earthly gods if they're also from earth?
Pure narcissism. They're not actually that special other than thinking themselves to be.
Remember that in the latest game, we learned that Yuiman held the same divine rank as those who were fleeing to the moon, but Yuimankoku existed on the border of the afterlife, which is as far from "heavenly" as it gets, so it's hardly some divine mandate that elevates them above others.

The Lunarians are just massive scam artists, by all accounts, only good for sex appeal.

>>50210265
>Can't sympathize with any characters
>Can't write a likable character to save his life
Suddenly everything makes sense.

>>50208170
>Christianity isn't canon to Touhou.
It doesn't have to be for Satan to exist. Jesus is all but said to exist. Also Shiki was a thing.

>>50205695
They don't. They would all be butchered if the Youkai wanted them gone. The moment the humans have outlived their usefulness that little town is going to be wiped off the map and everybody knows it.

>>50213921
Kasen explicitly says Jesus existed in WaHH, she just thought he was a saint. Whether she's right or not is a different matter.

>>50213930
Most likely she is right but Jesus was still a good person and a demi god. Which puts her above every single figure in Gensokyo.

Honestly, Human Village would be a awful society to actually live in when you apply basic logic. Basically anarcho capitalist hellhole where rich merchants can murder and rape people for kicks. However, the fact that most villagers seem like very chill and relaxed people generally leads me to assume that most major village figures are good, if eccentric, people. More Scrooge Mc Duck than john rockefeller.

>>50213948
But 2hus are real so life must not be so bad

>>50213923
Weren't youkai able to live on without relying on human faith? They basically turn in their own form of hermits for that

>>50214351
yes but they require prodigious amounts of human semen

>>50213335
>>50213893
The Lunarians being from Takamagahara is in Yuiman's omake text, not from the Lunarians.
>Long ago, she was the princess of a land called Yuimankoku.
>Yuimankoku stood on the edge of the world of the gods, next door to the world of death, and was populated by Shinjin (God-humans).
>She lived a pastoral lifestyle, enjoying deer-hunting amidst nature, but the gods that arrived from Takamagahara twisted her into a lowly, base being.
>Even though Princess Yuiman had the same rank of divinity as the People of the Moon, after the gods built their capital city on the moon, they continued to bind her to the Earth and make her labor for the People of the Moon.
They're also called gods by ZUN, and in fragment of phantasy (non-canon but it discusses mythology in relation to Touhou and is approved by ZUN) when it talks about the heavenly gods and Takamagahara it talks about them in contrast to earth and yomi (Hell or old Hell in this context). It isn't earth and in LoLK Suwako implies that the difference between heavenly and earthly is in their being, the ultramarine orb elixir as something that prufies is fatal to her as a native god. Although the exact overlap of earthly and native gods isn't known, I think that fact she has to specify means that other types of gods, including heavenly gods, would not be killed by it.
I don't think Yuimankoku or Yuiman being once equal in status to the Lunarians is in contrast to them either, it sounds like a special place and Yuiman is a Shinjin as well. Shinjin itself has a variety of menaings, from a type of taoist immortal, to a person bound to a shrine in service to a god. In either case I don't think Yuiman being on status with the Lunarians is meant to make them look unimpressive, but make Yuiman look impressive. The netherworld is a pure realm, and the ministry of right and wrong holds authority over the celestials, sending Shinigami and Kishin after them.
Also, the heavenly gods descending to earth in japanese myth is them invading japan and taking it over. We also know that heaven doesn't like to allow new people in, if the gods from Yuimankoku lost their immortallity and were no longer seen as heavenly by the celestials I don't think they would be allowed back in.
There is also the fact that celestial may be a less precise term in japanese, it just means heaven person, sky person, or deva. Even if all the celestials we have met so far are from Bhavaagra, that doesn't mean all of them are.

>>50213948
Good thing you can't apply logic to Gensokyo.

>>50214721
...So they are all evil sadists and human villagers just used to the abuse?

>>50214721
That's just a cop-out from ZUN and you know it. Just like items from the Outside World ending up in Gensokyo, to avoid addressing anachronisms.

>>50213948
>basic logic
>where rich merchants can murder and rape people for kicks
I'd love to read about that basic logic, because when I apply mine, I see a place where it would be unwise in the extreme to turn against a populace that can lynch you at any time, and there's no political establishment to cover your arse. And that's not even touching on the literal supernatural powers in whose best interest it is to keep the town friendly and placid, which you would be disturbing.

>>50213936
Wild card: Jesus is an aspect of the Jade Emperor, who is in fact exactly the all-loving, all-powerful being the Chinese legends say He is.

>>50214823
Basically: Your argument falls flat when you consider the matter of force and who actually controls society. The government bailing out rich people relies on the assumption that the government has a monopoly on force. No such monopoly exists in Gensokyo, as it' s a anarchy. Meaning that whoever can leverage the most power can dictate the law. In other words: Whoever can afford to pay the town guard effectivity is the law. No lynch mob is going to be able to stand up to that. If you think that's insane, try and remember that Gensokyo is in the same country that has a word for the act of Samurai standing in a crossroad and murdering random passerby to test out their weapon. Obviously, the Senogku Jidai is not the same kind of anarchy as Gensokyo but it is still pretty revealing.

And that is of course assuming rich and powerful people in the human village engage in the most braindead "Killing a person in public for everybody to see" kind of behavior. Literally even a modicum of subtlety would be impossible to deal with. Beat some random servant to death? Just claim he was stealing from you and tried to resist when he was caught. Rape some women? Just claim she's lying. Who is going to investigate? The guard you are paying? Reimu? And that's even assuming you give a reason for why somebody just vanishes. There is a laundry list of reasons why somebody might disappear in Gensokyo. As long as the bodies are buried, everybody will just assume a Youkai did it. Any would be Gilles De Rai, Elizabeth Báthory, or Epstein would find Gensokyo and the human village to be a freaking paradise. That's not even going into the stuff that WOULD be a crime but would be normalized in a traditional society like Gensokyo. Raping your wife? Perfectly normal. Pedophilia? Just make sure the parents are paid properly. Honor killings? Literally might not have been abolished legally when Gensokyo was closed off from the outside world.

>But muh youkai
I'm going to just ignore any question of morality because, lol. Youkai are people who view child abduction and murder as a lifestyle. They could not give less of a fuck about some rich fuck murdering a prostitute. The gods are no better. Do you really think Kanako would care if the zoo animals mistreat each other?

As for more practical matters: They have no interest in human villagers being friendly. Placid and compliant, sure. But that is hardly mutually exclusive with rich and powerful people doing as they please. If anything, it's good for the human villagers to be under the booth of people above them. Especially when you consider the rather obvious question of "Who are the merchants trading with?" I mean, we know they have ice cream? Where did they get that from? Where does the salt merchant get his salt from? A salt mine? Who runs that salt mine? Who do farmers sell their surplus food to? Most likely the answer to all of those questions is "Youkai". By default anybody willing to interact with Youkai to the extent that they are able to open up trade relations is going to be generally unscrupulous and immoral. So, while that gives the Youkai a great degree of control over the elite of the human village, it also means they are largely being selected for their amorality. Anybody that is genuinly a good person just straight up wouldn't trade with Youkai. More than that, it means the Youkai have a active interest in maintaining a rich elite capable of basically doing as they please and holding power over their lesser both ecenomically and as a means of extorting control over the human village. At best they would probably demand some level of basic decency on the level of "Try to at least appear civil", but it can just as easily turn into "Limit the amount of people you murder to like one every year" or even "Do your crossroad killings at night so the Youkai can clean up the bodies". As for anything else to hold them accountable, there basically isn't any: The people of Gensokyo are largely uncaring about religion and magic, and neither Byakuren or Miko is going to be able to set some kind of societal standard of morality. Confucianism is mostly limited to one Oni and presumably Keine. Youkai exterminators either don't exist or are such a non factor they might as well not exist. And Reimu doesn't give a fuck, as long as they don't turn into Youkai she's okay with anything.

>>50216100
Yo Nork, new CDS chapter is out, want to join us in >>50200612?

>>50216100
So, by applying basic logic, what we are looking at is a society where people with force are effectively totally and utterly unchecked in their application of that force. Where maintaining the pretense of civility is easy enough that covering up and justifying random acts of cruelty is both easy if not borderline accepted. Where nepotism, patronage, and cronyism isn't embedded into the system as much as it just is the system. Where the only group capable of holding anybody accountable not only rewards people for bad behavior but have zero morale believes. All of this in the context of a old fashioned society with values that would be viewed as abhorrent even in modern Japan.

At best we are looking at a place where the worst Epstein Island/Bohemian Grove theories happen in the mansion of every rich person looking to spice up their life. At worst we are looking at a society where bumping into a rich person is liable to end with you being decapitated and sexual abuse of women is formalized to the point of their compliance deciding their ability to function in society. Again, I don't actually think ZUN meant for that to be the case. The human villagers are written as generally saint like enough that I can actually buy most of the rich being closer to weird eccentrics and idealized nobles than Game of Thrones villains. I'm just pointing out that, logically, that relies on a lot of filling in the gaps.

>>50216100
If a women was raped or in a bad marriage I imagine she could go the the myouren temple. Buddhist temples did handle divorce courts and things like that, there are also the scarely mentioned villager elder(s) who might handle such a situation.
Reimu or someone else might intervene on moral grounds, but like the above I think that depends on how you views the characters and what actions you think they would take. There's also a chance of self interested youkai like Wriggle or Mamizou trying to help out in order to advance the cause of the insects or tanuki.

>>50216100
>s going to be generally unscrupulous and immora
I forgot to mention, but Kappa and Tengu sell their shit to the viallgers in paper thing disguises and Sekibanki works in the village.
As long as it's nothing criminal or you aren't buying goods smuggled from the outside world, I don't think people would care.

>>50216100
There is no evidence of a centralised policing force in the Human Village.
The powers-that-be are generally opposed to organised leadership in the Village, as seen in the Symposium.
Furthermore, humans being preoccupied with one another means lessened attention for the gods/youkai. This is a no-no and wouldn't fly.
There was no question of morality; youkai have a vested self-interest in the Village remaining undistracted by internal conflict. Morals do not play into it.
I don't care about American celebrities.

>>50216122
>Buddhist temples did handle divorce court
They handled them because they had the legal authority to handle them. To whatever extent such a authority exists in Gensokyo it would mostly be depended on the local elite's agreement.

>there are also the scarely mentioned villager elder(s) who might handle such a situation.
It's questionable if they still exist. Either way, their power would be largely dependent on it simply being a bad look to just dismiss them altogether. They can't actually do anything meanigful.

>Reimu or someone else might intervene on moral grounds, but like the above I think that depends on how you views the characters and what actions you think they would take.
Reimu is fundamentally too stupid to actually handle such a situation. Could you really see her getting involved with a women getting raped or a servant getting murdered and assume she would be able to properly deduce the truth? Even assuming she has the morale backbone to care, and I don't think she would, she's not a detective and while her intuition is strong It's not actual evidence.

>like Wriggle or Mamizou trying to help out in order to advance the cause of the insects or tanuki.
Wriggle is in the same boat as Reimu. Even if she has the reasons to go through with it, she lacks the intelligence to actually help. Mamizou meanwhile is largely immoral. To whatever extent she would be able to deduce the truth she would be more liable to use it to blackmail somebody. Even then, she largely lacks the ability to actually evict people.

>>50216135
Cont
I also forgot about Mystia and Kyouko's band, which has human and Youkai fans. Although Reimu and Aya don't like it since they hate rock music.

>>50216166
Oh, it is you Nork. Happy to see you again, but I generally agree with what >>50216139 has to say.
A human village with a lot of problems as you describe wouldn't be beneficial to the Youkai. Also Byakuren could just decide to handle divorce settlements, there's nobody to say no to her and it would be part of her duty as a buddhist priest.
Also while Mamizou is self interested, her balckmailing the abusive spouse to let go of his wife, and blackmailing him to help her business in the human village is a solution to the problem.
Besides I think the thing that that Youkai want to a void is a total, singular leader of the human village. Like a king, chieftain, or dictator. At least those are the vibes I get.

>>50216135
>but Kappa and Tengu sell their shit to the viallgers in paper thing disguises
The paper thin disguises argument is pretty weak. Either way, it probably wasn't that way in the past when most of the major merchant families probably started.

>>50216139
>There is no evidence of a centralised policing force in the Human Village
That's my point. To whatever extent there would be any kind of town guard it's basically just personal thugs for whoever can afford it. The law being dictated entity by what they view acceptable. A lynch mob isn't going to do shit against a gang of people armed with actual guns, spears, or swords.

>The powers-that-be are generally opposed to organised leadership in the Village, as seen in the Symposium.
Which is why they would benefit from a system of rich people just doing as they please and facing no consequences for it.

>Furthermore, humans being preoccupied with one another means lessened attention for the gods/youkai.
All the more reason for them to not care. Bad people being able to do bad things without consequences being normalized only benefits them.

>youkai have a vested self-interest in the Village remaining undistracted by internal conflict.
And the easiest way to accomplish that is to simply ensure one class of people dominates to such a extent there is no opposition.

>>50216191
>All the more reason for them to not care.
Do you even know how gods and youkai stay alive?

>>50216100
>>50216113
>>50216139
For what it's worth, Reimu made an attempt at a system of law with spellcards that presumably even the village has to follow, even if the reason behind it was ultimately enlightened self-interest.

>>50216191
The Youkai kind of need to monopolize control over the village in a web of influence, and do so in a way where they work with the humans and consider working with them beneficial.
I think the situation has room for both corruption and virtue.
Also I thought, if wriggle or another dumb but self Interested Youkai gets involved, doesn't that mean Marisa or one of the shrines has to step on to resolve the situation now. I think that'd be a pretty interesting plot for a fan/doujin work.
Also it's more out there, but Tewi or a private divorce agency may also handle some cases. Tewi is rather mercantile, a member of a non-man eating Youkai clan, assets some political power over the human village, and is enshrined as a god of love in the outside world. So maybe she might try something in a divorce case.

>>50216189
>A human village with a lot of problems as you describe wouldn't be beneficial to the Youkai
What you describe as "problems" would just be normalized. Most of human society for all of history had nobles leverage effectively unlimited power against the population without any checks.

> Also Byakuren could just decide to handle divorce settlements,
Which wouldn't be acknowledged by everybody. Meaning the women would remain legally married. Because, again, the legality of something is dependent on the force exerted in it's maintenance. Marriage is not a spiritual act. It's a legal status whose worth it therefore determined by the law of a country. A place like Gensokyo, without any kind of top down system of law, means that any actual acceptance of that legal statues would be entirely dependent on the people powerful enough to enforce it in a legal means.

To put it simply: If you have a wife, and somebody rapes that wife, you are legally obligated to financial compensation (If not straight up a honor killings) because your wife is viewed as your property and what that other person did is in opposition of your right to ownership. However, right to ownership is only enforceable to the degree in which force can be exerted.

>Also while Mamizou is self interested, her balckmailing the abusive spouse to let go of his wife, and blackmailing him to help her business in the human village is a solution to the problem.
It would be more profitable for her to allow the abuse to continue.

>Besides I think the thing that that Youkai want to a void is a total, singular leader of the human village. Like a king, chieftain, or dictator
You do not need to be a singular leader to be capable of exerting power. If you can pay 10 people, give them swords, and send them to do your bidding then the only other person who can practically stop you is somebody else who can afford to pay 10 people and give them swords or somebody able to leverage people in opposition against you through other means. The former would be another rich person, the latter doesn't exist in the human village.

>>50216100
>>50216191
>hurr durr
My dude, one of the very few stated unspoken laws in Gensokyo is that you DON'T KILL THE VILLAGERS. Have you even read FS? Your whole headcanon is predicated on ignorance.

>>50216200
Yes, through fear and faith.

A rich person being able to murder or kill as they please not only doesn't really affect that, it downright encourages faith.

>>50216217
>The Youkai kind of need to monopolize control over the village in a web of influence, and do so in a way where they work with the humans and consider working with them beneficial.
Exactly. This means the people willing to work with them are the type of people that have no problem helping Youkai achieve controls over others.

>I think the situation has room for both corruption and virtue.
As a system it's entirely based around nepotism. Virtue is only possible on a purely personal basis. Aka: I choose not to do something bad. It is however neither encouraged nor entirely wanted by the Youkai.

>Tewi is rather mercantile, a member of a non-man eating Youkai clan, assets some political power over the human village, and is enshrined as a god of love in the outside world. So maybe she might try something in a divorce case.
See: >>50216247

Do you really think Tewi is going to get involved in somebody raping somebodies else wife? What leverage does she have?

>>50216256
>Your whole headcanon is predicated on ignorance.
That much has been obvious since he started this never-ending debate.

>>50216256
>My dude, one of the very few stated unspoken laws in Gensokyo is that you DON'T KILL THE VILLAGERS
Youkai do not kill villagers. There is no indication that such a law exists for humans. And if it does, who enforces it? Reimu? Not impossible, but she's also very stupid and gullible. It would also mean that literally all of human society would revolve around her as the ultimate enforcer of the law and the one person who has a effectively monopoly on force. She would essentially be a ruler in all but name, which as explained Youkai do not want.

Hey gals, am I the only one who thinks that having a murderer at large in the village is a good idea? I, for one, believe it's great that the humans are focusing on fearing one another, rather than fearing us. Moreover, I am convinced it's great that our cattle, on whose continued existence we depend with our lives, is being blithely killed off. Truly this is conducive to Gensokyo's purpose and exactly what we want. We should simply stand back and do nothing about it. Yes.

>>50216271
Anon, your entire retarded argument is based on a misconception that laws for Youkai applies to humans. Followed by a total inability to actually think through the implications of what you just said.

>You can't kill villagers
Okay? Who is going to enforce this?

>Reimu
So, she has a monopoly on force? Logically, this means your position in human society would be depended on how close you are to Reimu. Effectively a patronage system.

>>50216298
I left this retarded round about argument over nothing days ago, I don't know where you are specifically and I genuinely don't care. Something about rape? Makes sense for you.

>>50216289
>I, for one, believe it's great that the humans are focusing on fearing one another
Like I said:
>"Do your crossroad killings at night so the Youkai can clean up the bodies".

Youkai would have zero issue with this. it's okay to murder as you please as long as the common people suspect a youkai does it.

>>50216309
I largely explained how logically the human village would be essentially a anarcho capitalist state.

>>50216289
>Moreover, I am convinced it's great that our cattle, on whose continued existence we depend with our lives, is being blithely killed off.
Death happens. As long as it doesn't affect the overall population too much, why would they care?

> We should simply stand back and do nothing about it.
Yes. They would. It doesn't affect them. It isn't breaking any laws.

>>50216325
>It doesn't affect them.
Okay, I was typing out a serious response, but you're just being purposely obtuse now. That's no fun to go against. Good bye.

>>50216317
>logically
Again, have you considered that Gensokyo doesn't run on conventional logic?

>>50216298
Spellcard law is enforced in human to human interactions as proven by any game where two human characters actively fight each other. In fact, the bad end of SoEW goes on to demonstrate that this wasn't the case before spellcards. At best, your notions of how Gensokyo work are multiple decades out-of-date.

>>50216333
How does it affect them? The human village has the population of a small city going by most of the manga. Even a Elizabeth Báthory sociopath murdering literally hundreds of people wouldn't make a dent in a population of 10000 people. Pretending it's some kind of existential threat that would make Youkai care is laughable. And that's literally assuming the absolute worst case scenario.

Let's take a example like this historical murder, taken from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiri-sute_gomen
>Another happening features a nobleman named Kuranosuke Toda, whose norimono was shoved by a commoner trying to cross through. Toda's bodyguard demanded an apology, but the peasant insulted them instead. The samurai then threw him to the ground, but the peasant still started a shouting match. Watching it from his litter, Toda ordered the man to be cut down

Do you think any youkai in gensokyo would care? Do you? Really? How does this affect them? How is this behavior that would matter to them?

>>50216333
Frankly at this point I'm convinced he's trying to pull a Harry Potter and Methods of Rationality on Touhou/Gensokyo, just in the form of a retarded debate instead of a fanfic.

Grimsokyo sisters, we have no rebuttal to this...

>>50216334
See: >>50214737

Human village is a human society. It follows the laws of human society. Nothing implies it doesn't function like a human society would. Assuming it's actually the tea party scene in Alice in Wonderland is a very bold claim.

>>50216337
>Spellcard law is enforced in human to human interactions as proven by any game where two human characters actively fight each other.
Calling the games evidence is very questionable. Besides, outside Keine we see exactly zero human villagers use it.

>At best, your notions of how Gensokyo work are multiple decades out-of-date.
Perfect Memento came out in 2006. We are literally further away from it than it was from SoEW. Thinking it's new or relevant canon is laughable when every manga since then has gone out of it's way to contradict it.

>>50216356
You are forgetting the part that humans acting like youkai instead of humans actively encroaches upon their dominion which is a major no-no as it causes them to question their station. If the youkai authorities don't challenge Jack the Ripper and let him ascend into yookdom through infamy, it causes the entire masquerade to crumble as now there is no inherent difference between weak youkai and youkai-hopefuls.

>>50216358
>Frankly at this point I'm convinced he's trying to pull a Harry Potter and Methods of Rationality on Touhou/Gensokyo,
Nah. If I did that it would be much easier to actually tackle the underlying science behind the way Youkai and gods function than try to get into the minutia of how the human village functions.

Off topic but somebody actually made a fucking manga version of that fanfic. Was baffling to come across that, especially when the art was pretty good.

>>50216388
>You are forgetting the part that humans acting like youkai instead of humans actively encroaches upon their dominion which is a major no-no
No? It's not. Yeah, there are some stories of bad people turning into Youkai when they do bad things. But some random rich guy murdering some villagers for kicks isn't going to turn you into a youkai. You are more likely to become a youkai by killing youkai, and even that takes about a thousand.

And that's assuming the absolute worst case scenario. A rich person murdering a peasant who bumped into him and didn't apoglize won't mean shit.

>>50214382
I would personally be very willing to help Kasen

>>50216406
>Ignores
Let me read something I wrote for you:

>>50216113
>The human villagers are written as generally saint like enough that I can actually buy most of the rich being closer to weird eccentrics and idealized nobles than Game of Thrones villains.

Like I said, the human villagers are genuinly saintly enough that I can actually buy "Most rich people are mostly on the level". Granted, another dude was using child labor and did child abuse on him. But that's pretty mild all things considered considering how much power they actually have.

>>50216398
I mean if a guy can turn into a Youkai due to eating and killing a horse, I thinking killing humans would have around the same effect.
Either way the Youkai and this Reimu aren't really interested in their main source of fear and faith offing itself.

>>50216423
...so you know that your whole argument is bullshit? What's the point?

>>50216317
Not every form of government or organization that has a decentralized structure is anarcho capitalist.

>>50216432
>I mean if a guy can turn into a Youkai due to eating and killing a horse
He turned into a youkai because he ate a animal that was previous threated as a pet. It's a actual human legend.

Now, granted, I don't think japan has wendigo legends but I'm assuming eating human flesh would probably turn you into a Youkai. Don't know any legends about doing murders turning you into a Youkai.

>>50216433
>What's the point
Let me read you literally the next sentence:
>"I'm just pointing out that, logically, that relies on a lot of filling in the gaps."
Basically: The human village is underwritten.

>>50216443
> that has a decentralized structure is anarcho capitalist.
Then what else is it? It's obviously not a theocracy. Feudalism? Nope, not either. Patronage? Eh... not impossible but the fact that the only people with power we see are merchants...

>>50216398
The fact they aren't physically youkai yet, or will ever become them is secondary to the fact humans being allowed to act like youkai undermines the de-facto caste system Gensokyo operates by.

If you want to know who enforces the law in Gensokyo when Reimu isn't breathing down them, the answer is Yukari and associates; a workforce of Zashiki-warashi tends to the villages' needs and provides them with a sense of luxury beyond what their station would give in the outside world, and also acts as a monitor to prevent the exact situation you're describing from festering.
There doesn't need to be a large force of village guards because the second one of these cutes spots something that would displease the sages, the information pipeline will quickly reach the Yakumo crew and Ran is noted to be a regular visitor of the village and can swiftly deal with anything that falls beyond the incident solvers' purview on her own, or more likely with Chen in animal form so nobody looks too deeply into her village persona (don't you know spotting a black cat is bad luck?)

Remember, the village is more or less 'in' on how Gensokyo works; the moment they deviate from the script too hard all the luxuries provided to them becomes their noose.

>>50216444
>filling in the gaps
>humans can freely murder each other
Yeah I was 14 once

>>50216268
She's Tewi, she's the leader of a Youkai clan, probably a god, and she seems to be rather wealthy.
I'm sure she could figure something would if she wanted to.
Although I think your assumption that everything is nepotism is rather bold. Lol, but the entire premise of the village is everybody already buys into the system.
Also I think your assumption about how only unscrupulous people working and socializing with Youkai is bold, that's basically the default so anybody from any wall of like could and would do it.
Heck the fairies run stands at festivals and stuff.

>>50216450
Don't pretend ZUN ever thought that hard about his worldbuilding.

>>50216247
What would the husband do? Refuse to consent to divorce arbitration? I guess his wife would become a permanent monk then, but if he doesn't consent to arbitration then he's still married but can't have access to his wife and now he looks bad as well since she's publicly trying to divorce him.
Besides his hand could just be twisted if he's obstinate enough. Same would go for anything. Mamizou would do I think.
Also I don't see how Mamizou financially benefits from allowing the abuse to continue, as long as she has proof of abuse she has proof of it and can blackmail the guy no matter what. Once his wife leaves him, or doesn't publicly divorce him but loves separately, Mamizou sill has proof of abuse.
Also if the situation escalates to guards with swords fighting Youkai, then the shrines would step in to solve the issue given that the human is the one escalating to abuse his wife more, I don't think it would end in his favor.

Not really lore, more like trivia, but...
Have you ever thought about how Mayumi is inspired by Maschinenmensch from Metropolis?
Both are female androids who lead an uprising of lower classes.
I thought that this was just a random schizo thought, but then I remembered that Mayumi's stage theme is literally called "Bīsuto metoroporisu". ZUN is not even subtle about it, but I've never heard it mentioned anywhere.
They both have names starting with "Ma-" and yellow color schemes as well, though this might be a stretch.

>>50216423
You don't have to be a saint to not rape or kill other people, that's called being a normal person.

>>50214682
>They're also called gods by ZUN
Oh, they're definitely gods, that's for sure, and quite powerful, too. I don't think anyone's disputing that aspect.
>and in fragment of phantasy (non-canon but it discusses mythology in relation to Touhou and is approved by ZUN) when it talks about the heavenly gods and Takamagahara it talks about them in contrast to earth and yomi (Hell or old Hell in this context).
That talks about the original mythology Touhou derives from, but it's not at all useful for discussing how they are in Touhou since it diverges so heavily from the original myths, including how they're all living on the moon, all the gods left Takamagahara instead of just Ninigi and possibly a few others, Ookuninushi and Takeminakata were sealed away instead of Ookuninushi peacefully giving up his domain to the Amatsukami after watching his son get his ass beat, and including clear Kunitsukami amongst their ranks such as Tamayorihime and Toyotamahime. It's interesting and can provide context to things, but it's not really useful in arguments about Touhou itself.
It also brings up the theories about those stories originating with Chinese or Koreans bringing rice cultivation techniques to Japan, which would only support the view of the future Lunarians being of a more ordinary origin than they make things out to be.
>It isn't earth and in LoLK Suwako implies that the difference between heavenly and earthly is in their being, the ultramarine orb elixir as something that prufies is fatal to her as a native god. Although the exact overlap of earthly and native gods isn't known, I think that fact she has to specify means that other types of gods, including heavenly gods, would not be killed by it.
Suwako, as a Native God, is very firmly established as being different from Divine Spirits like Kanako, and by all accounts the Lunarians, but there's no hard evidence that the Lunarians all that different from the Kunitsukami. We don't really have a firm grasp on what kind of gods they are for the most part, since they're usually just labeled as Lunarians, but Sagume is explicitly referred to as a Divine Spirit, so it's likely that applies to many of them, which would make their fundamental nature not too different from that of Kanako, at least.
>In either case I don't think Yuiman being on status with the Lunarians is meant to make them look unimpressive, but make Yuiman look impressive.
Oh, for sure, but it crucially proves that the Amatsukami's status isn't exclusive to them. It can't be argued that they're better than the earthly gods because they're the heavenly gods, when a group of others (at minimum Yuiman and presumably Ariya, but may also include the other inhabitants of Yuimankoku) are of the same rank of them, despite clearly being bound to the earth and not being from Takamagahara. The Amatsukami clearly aren't as unique as they make themselves out to be.
>Also, the heavenly gods descending to earth in japanese myth is them invading japan and taking it over. We also know that heaven doesn't like to allow new people in, if the gods from Yuimankoku lost their immortallity and were no longer seen as heavenly by the celestials I don't think they would be allowed back in.
Only Ninigi and a few others left Takamagahara to assume control of Ashihara no Nakatsukuni in the original myths. The others remained in the heavens. Why would Tsukuyomi have left with them instead of just remaining in the pure heavens in that case?
Plus, these events would've happened long ago, long before Heaven revised its immigration policies to keep the rabble out. There's no reason to assume that if Tsukuyomi and his family came from there that they could never return when families like the Hinanawi were still accepted.
I also don't see any reason to assume that the shinjin of Yuimankoku ever originated from the heavenly realms. Yuiman's profile probably would've commented on that instead of drawing a clear distinction between them and those who descended from Takamagahara. They seem to be pretty native to the land, they just held the same divine rank as the Amatsukami (whatever that really means).

>>50214682
>>50217113
So my main theory is that within Touhou, the Amatsukami were a "tribe" of gods who lived in a place called Takamagahara, which was presumbly high up on a mountain, but still part of Earth and affected by its impurity.
Upon realizing his mortality due to this, Tsukuyomi took action and formulated a plan to escape to a place (relatively) free of impurity.
In doing this, the Amatsukami descended from their mountain, which became known as the Tenson Kourin, wrested control of the land from the other gods through their superior power and technology (it's notable that the Lunarians make heavy use of technology instead of just divine powers, unlike the other gods we see in Touhou), sealed away any they saw as a threat to their power (such as Ookuninushi and Takeminakata), recruited any other gods they thought would be useful to them to join them on the moon, and forcefully bound into service any they thought they could make use of, regardless of their status, such as Yuiman, wholly unconcerned with morality because they think themselves far beyond the other gods, a mindset that would only grow stronger after they started living on the moon.
They would go on to shape the myths surrounding themselves to make them look better and keep the truth about the moon a secret, which led to the myths as we know them today, similar to how Eirin used Urashimako to seed a myth about a mystical "land of Hourai" which indirectly bolstered the faith in the Lunar Capital without revealing its secrets, solidifying its existence.

>>50216457
> or will ever become them is secondary to the fact humans being allowed to act like youkai undermines the de-facto caste system Gensokyo operates by.
Marisa exists. Besides, they don't act like Youkai. There's a huge difference between Youkai eating people in the woods and a rich human villager having a bluebeard phase. That's not even getting into epstein island shit or murdering people that disrespect/annoy them.

>a workforce of Zashiki-warashi tends to the villages' needs and provides them with a sense of luxury beyond what their station would give in the outside world, and also acts as a monitor to prevent the exact situation you're describing from festering.
Yeah, they are spies, I'm aware. But there is nothing to indicate they give a fuck about random people being murdered, let alone kids/women being raped. Like I explained above, at absolute best their standard when dealing with the elite of human village society (People already virtually under their control due to their wealth being dependent on trade with Youkai) would be "Try to appear civil".

>There doesn't need to be a large force of village guards
Imbecile of Wu, the point of a large, or even small, village guard isn't actually keeping the peace it's power. The difference between a Yakuza thug collecting protection money and the town guard collecting taxes is largely that the latter is backed by the government. There is no government in Gensokyo.

>Remember, the village is more or less 'in' on how Gensokyo works;
1: No they fucking aren't. 2: As I already explained, the extent to which rich human villagers would be into it is by being selected for their immoral tendencies. They want people with a Judas grindset. Letting those people abuse servant boys or flaunt their power is perfectly acceptable .

>>50216458
>humans can freely murder each other
Rich people can murder each other. Again, this is Japan. Samurai had a right to openly attack people when Gensokyo was closed off from the outside world if they felt their honor was offended. And at least that was actually formalized and had a central government providing some degree of protection to commoners

>>50216473
>I'm sure she could figure something would if she wanted to.
If she wanted to is already a massive assumption. I'm sure fucking Tewi wears her heart on her sleeve dealing with domestic abuse cases.

>Although I think your assumption that everything is nepotism is rather bold.
What else is there?

>but the entire premise of the village is everybody already buys into the system.
No, it's not. Nobody wants or likes the system.

>Heck the fairies run stands at festivals and stuff.
Fairies are not youkai.

>>50216476
Of course he didn't. That is also my point.

>>50217051
What is normal depends on the society you live in. Not on what you believe is right or wrong. The aztecs believed it was normal to do human sacrifice. Most human societies believed it was normal to own slaves at one point.

>>50216488
>Refuse to consent to divorce arbitration?
Yes? The extent to which the marriage matters is not the extent to which Byakuren approves. It's the extent to which it's lawfully enforceable.

>I guess his wife would become a permanent monk then,
Becoming a nun is a option to be sure. But it would also largely involve essentially leaving human society and the human village.

>Also I don't see how Mamizou financially benefits from allowing the abuse to continue,
Because if he can keep it up he has more to lose. Thus more reason to stay loyal.

>then the shrines would step in to solve the issue given that the human is the one escalating to abuse his wife more, I don't think it would end in his favor.
Lawfully in 99% of human societies it would actually end in his favor. Questions about domestic abuse were largely seen as questions of property ownership.

>>50217602
*Rich people can murder others.

>>50217602
I didn't say they like the system, but Akyuu talks about it in FS, the villagers manipulate the youkai in turn. Also the fairies were just and example, like the Kappa, Tanuki, or Tengu who all do business in the human village. Doing business with youkai is the norm.
Tewi is just an option, a bit of speculation no different than what you're doing. I think she might be interested if there's money in it, if it can boost the Inaba's reputation, and partly because matchmaking falls under her preview as a god.
>>50217638
The thing is, the if the man refuses divorce arbitration, and the wife isn't living with him, and there's no central institution to enforce the law. Then it really comes down to how stubborn the husband is going to be, if he claims to be married then he can't marry someone else. If the wife's says she wants a divorce and is staying at the Myouren temple then they effectievly aren't married and the man is going to have a bunch of nasty rumors about how he mistreats women due to his wife hiding out in the myouren temple.
What is he going to do? Escalate? Even if the wife is a nun, the myouren temple isn't exactly not part of the human village, they go there to preach, beg for alms, and interact with the villagers like a normal temple does. Which would be part of her duties as a nun/monk/person there. She wouldn't even have to shave her hair like historical buddhist temple divorce settlements would have her do.
Also, Mamziou does want people to think good of the Tanuki, so if it would make her look good, I think she would be willing to help out.
Earlier you made a claim about how samurai can just go around killing people when Gensokyo was founded, 500 years ago, but isn't Gensokyo supposed to be closer to the Meiji period? I bring up this anachronism since my understanding of buddhist divorces comes from the Edo and before period. I bring that up due to your claim that in 99% of human societies it would end in his favor. Because that was a problem in japan during the Edo period, husbands not willing to sign divorce papers since the wife was their property.
In which case the buddhist temple stepped in to arbitrate. The wife would go to the temple, explain the situation, and she would join as the divorce is being settled and become a nun. There was a specific term for these types of temples divorce, Enkiridera, although I'm sure Byakuren would want to offer this service as well. This abolished later in the Edo period, but they operated in the earlier era as well and as Byakuren is from 1000 years ago, before the practice was abolished I'm sure she'd be willing to offer the same service.
So the temple would exist for exactly this type of case you're talking about. In which case the husband has three choices:
>Escalate
>Wait it out
>Sign the divorce papers
And I don't think it would be settled in his favor if he escalated. The woman went to the temple and is trying to solve in case in exactly the way she is expected to while he's the one hiring goons.
She might also have her family's help if they're willing to negotiate for a divorce settlement and don't want to involve a third party.

>>50217787
> but Akyuu talks about it in FS, the villagers manipulate the youkai in turn
It's hard to say how much that applies to people that aren't Akyuu.

>Also the fairies were just and example, like the Kappa, Tanuki, or Tengu who all do business in the human village.
In a disguise. yeah, it's shit.

>Then it really comes down to how stubborn the husband is going to be
It comes down to the extent to which 1: Byakuren cares. 2: The women is fine with not living in the actual human village.

>and the man is going to have a bunch of nasty rumors about how he mistreats women due to his wife hiding out in the myouren temple.
Or he might simply say she's unfaithful and sleeping around. Damaging the reputation of Myouren temple for sheltering a impure women.

>Which would be part of her duties as a nun/monk/person there.
Then the guards would just drag her back to her husband.

>Also, Mamziou does want people to think good of the Tanuki
She wants people to THINK good of the tanuki. They aren't good.

> but isn't Gensokyo supposed to be closer to the Meiji period
Yes, which is why I tend to assume straight up crossroad killings are rare. However, Samurai were legally allowed to kill people who offended their honor basically until the abolition of Samurai as a class.

>Because that was a problem in japan during the Edo period, husbands not willing to sign divorce papers since the wife was their property. In which case the buddhist temple stepped in to arbitrate.
The Buddhist temple was able to get away with that because of it's social prestige and social importance. Myouren temple, while having some support, is significantly less important to the human villagers than actual Buddhist clergy was to Edo Japan.

>but they operated in the earlier era as well and as Byakuren is from 1000 years ago, before the practice was abolished
Buddhist temples didn't start offering Enkiridera service until the Edo period. Byakuren was from a time where the idea of a women having any legal status to divorce their husband would be even more obviously ridiculously. I doubt that would affect her much, for obvious reasons. Besides, Myouren has been around for, what, two years in universe? It's very unlikely a change this major in village society would be fully normalized since then.

>>50217835
I mean yeah, Mamizou wants to think the Tanuki are good, so she takes steps to help them.
But for Byakuren, thanks for giving me that tidbit, but the Myouren temple was operating under Shou's leadership in former hell while she was away. So I think they would be familiar with the practice, and I think Byakuren would off this service in order to make the temple more popular among the women of the human village. Even if not for moral reasons. Although in universe... ugh, time moves the same as it does in the real world? UFO happened in 2009, it's been 16 years.
Not to reply line by line, but I just have to point this out.
>Then the guards would just drag her back to her husband.
>The Buddhist temple was able to get away with that because of it's social prestige and social importance. Myouren temple, while having some support, is significantly less important to the human villagers than actual Buddhist clergy was to Edo Japan.
This is basically the escalation option I mentioned, and its shit. Escalation is a shit option, sure the husband can TRY it, but for obvious reasons I don't think it would work.

>>50217835
>>50217855(me)
Also the human village doesn't have samurai to our knowledge so i don't know why you keep bringing them up. Either way I don't think Yukari, Reimu, or any of the youkai would like the human villagers killing each other.
The human village and the villagers by extension are kind of needed to maintain gensokyo.

>>50217855
>So I think they would be familiar with the practice,
I... REALLY doubt Oni make use of divorce service.

>Although in universe... ugh, time moves the same as it does in the real world? UFO happened in 2009, it's been 16 y
In universe my honest answer is "Don't think about it". Point being though it's MOSTLY recent.

>This is basically the escalation option I mentioned, and its shit
I think it would mostly work depending on the extent to which it's seen as socially acceptable by the general population.

>>50217862
>Also the human village doesn't have samurai to our knowledge so i don't know why you keep bringing them up.
It's not just about Samurai, it's about class in general. People with power in Japan have a habit of simply killing those who offended them and this was largely seen as normal.

>Either way I don't think Yukari, Reimu, or any of the youkai would like the human villagers killing each other.
Why?

>The human village and the villagers by extension are kind of needed to maintain gensokyo.
Unless the human village has a population of twenty people. A rich girl ordering her bodyguard to execute some rude peasant isn't going to affect the population. Nor will a rich person molesting his staff, in fact that could potentially increase the population, or abusing his help.

>>50217895
Buddism is actually the preferred religion of Oni's. But yeah I imagine they don't get married much, either way I think Shou would tell her and I think it's something she would go for. Also, yes the husband wouldn't win, escalation is dumb. The Myouren temple wouldn't have the wife out alone, and what are the gaurds going to do, attack a member of the myouren temple in public?
Raid the myouren temple?
Nork, you're being dumb. The husband wouldn't win, escalation is basically pressing an "I lose" button.
>Why?
>Unless the human village has a population of twenty people. A rich girl ordering her bodyguard to execute some rude peasant isn't going to affect the population. Nor will a rich person molesting his staff, in fact that could potentially increase the population, or abusing his help.
Nork, I like Grimsokyo, I've told you this before, but you're just being silly at this point. Letting humans get away with murder helps no one and just makes the village more unstable.

>>50217911
>The Myouren temple wouldn't have the wife out alone
Then, yeah, they probably wouldn't do shit.

>The husband wouldn't win, escalation is basically pressing an "I lose" button.
Assuming becoming a nun is viewed as winning. Most likely the husband will just move on to a new target if they are rich enough.

>Letting humans get away with murder helps no one and just makes the village more unstable.
Honor killings are not viewed as murder. And of course it would help them. If the people most socially dependent on Youkai have the capacity to kill those that get in their way, that only increases the stability of the human village and the ability for youkai to enforce force.

Again, at best we are looking at a society where the general rule is "Appear civil and come up with a good enough excuse and you can do whatever you want." At worst it's basically seen as socially accepted that rich people can murder you if you disrespect them.

>>50217935
Nork, you're being ridiculous. The youkai wouldn't tolerate their food killing itself and Byakuren if she knew about it would offer the service, and would help the wife.
Heck she goes to the town out in the open with the other nuns and nobody complains.

Wait, I thought youkai were the evil and that humans were hecken good and wholesome and should govern themselves? But now you're saying that the humans are actually the cause behind human suffering? Wouldn't that make the outside world even worse, since that's entirely humans governing humans? Laws aren't some magical thing that can't exist in Gensokyo for no reason.
You know this was meant to be an ironic post but thinking about it the idea that rich people can just get away with shit because they have money in the outside/human world is entirely accurate. Damn this guy really is making a compelling case for youkai rule.

>>50217958
>The youkai wouldn't tolerate their food killing itself
Why? They wouldn't give a fuck as long as it doesn't harm the actual population.

It's not even a case of actual livestock where sheep dying is at least financially annoying. As long as there are enough humans to prevent a slow death by inbreeding there is zero reason to assume Youkai would care. They have no sense of right and wrong, and practically as long as the human village continues to operate as a actual society the occasional rude peasant getting chopped in two wouldn't affect them.

>>50217985
>But now you're saying that the humans are actually the cause behind human suffering?
No, Youkai are the cause because they prevent a government from forming that would be able to hold people at least being somewhat accountable while also being totally immoral and evil. Take everything evil about humans, multiply it tenfold, and remove the capacity to even feel love towards others. That is Youkai, and those are the only people able to hold the upper class of the human village accountable.

>You know this was meant to be an ironic post but thinking about it the idea that rich people can just get away with shit because they have money in the outside/human world is entirely accurate
Of course they fucking get away with it. The difference is that it's at least it's somewhat hard. In Gensokyo it would be SIGINFICANTLY easier in every way it's possible to be easy, and the people have even less holding them back. At least most Americans politicians have to pretend to be good Christians or that they support women's rights. There is no such expectation in gensokyo.

>The only reason I don't shank my neighbor is because government scares me and I'm a coward.
Honestly not that surprising.

>>50218023
The only reason a lot of people don't kill their neighbor is because of fear, yes. I don't, but you are deluded if you think everybody is just magically a good person.

>>50217987
Nork, talking to you makes me feel like a crazy person.
>>50218037
Also I think you have too little faith in humanity. Anyway, I'm busy now so I can't respond to you anymore.
But I hope you get over whatever you're problems are. have a good day.

>>50218063
>Nork, talking to you makes me feel like a crazy person.
Genuinely, fucking explain this to me:

Why would youkai care? Because some people die? There are plenty of things in the human village that can kill a person. Are they trying to ban that? Are they going to ban ice cream to stop diabetes? Are they going to ban ladders? What about mines? Those can EXTREMLY dangerous?

By Kanako, you dogs need your internet access revoked for the next 10 years.

>>50218037
>The only reason a lot of people don't kill their neighbor is because of fear, yes.
Absolute projection holy shit. This psycho really thinks other people are as fucked in the head as he is. Makes sense for someone that's looking for a moral justification to commit genocide I guess.
Anon, most people don't have those thoughts, you're specifically just suffering from an anti-social personality disorder.

>>50218114
>Absolute projection holy shit.
Anon, please, go read Hobbes or something. I'm not even saying I entirely agree with him. But it's not like I'm saying something massively controversial or edgy.

This is not a lore thread, this is retard thread, there is no discussion, there is only stupidity.

>>50218140
This is the only thread on /jp/ where people will ask you to have a working knowledge of basic philosophy.

>>50218037
yes we knew you were a psychopath already we didnt need to hear you twice

>>50218180
See: >>50218122

>>50218182
ESL moment?
I didnt need to hear you twice.

>>50218190
>Please read basic philosophy
>YOU FUCKING SOCIOPATH!
I'm assuming you never finished high school?

>>50218197
Other people agreeing with you on human nature isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, to agree with you.
If a person think that a Hobbsian belief in the state of nature is psychopathic, you saying that Hobbes agrees with you isn't going to change their mind.

>>50218197
Your green is showing redditor. It's also funny that you go "read muh philosophy" as if that factors into real human behaviors. Read psychology instead and try not to just skim a study that mentions something you like in the headline without reading the contents first this time.

>>50218197
Anon, you're arguing that laws are the only thing keeping humanity from becoming a blood bath. I'm not sure how you think humanity managed to survive up to the foundation of the first riverine civilizations since apparently without artificial laws humans instantly devolve into anti-social sociopaths. Not like humans are social animals or anything.

>>50218204
I'm fine with people disagreeing with me on human nature, but don't pretend they have a solid argument if they are just going to shout nonsense.

>>50218205
A lot of psychology is actually inspired by early philosophy. Yes, I think our actual understanding of human nature has improved but you are deluded if that improvement indicates everybody would be totally decent if they lived in a lawless anarchy.

>>50218212
>Anon, you're arguing that laws are the only thing keeping humanity from becoming a blood bath
I'm arguing it's the only thing keeping people from doing crimes, yes. That's part of the reason why we have laws in the first place.

>I'm not sure how you think humanity managed to survive up to the foundation of the first riverine civilizations since apparently without artificial laws humans instantly devolve into anti-social sociopaths.
What the fuck is a non artificial law according to you? The law of gravity?

>Not like humans are social animals or anything.
Humans being social animals does not mean everybody lived in a hippie commune until some evil person decided to invent civilization. Even when laws were largely not codified most groups of humans still had clear rules to follow. Fear and the need for companionship as a means of survival being just as strong as a motivator as social bonds.

>>50218229
Guess what, I think Hobbess is nonsense. Humans literally had art and sea faring before we had government.

>>50218204
It shouldn't be rocket science for him to post verifiable proof that "most" (over 50% bare minimum) of people want to kill their neighbors out of fear. This is not only hard to produce verifiable proof for but also hard to take seriously since you have to give a bunch of special leeway to the argument that handwaves shit like being mildly annoyed about something once and jokingly thinking of things.
If proof for "most people" (i'm quoting this btw) wanting to kill their neighbors but are disuaded by fear is not possible to produce then he is simply trying to plug his favorite literature wank to look smart which is basically kindergarten level.
>>50218229
Post a single peer reviewed statistic that proves the philosophy (or at least what you literally said you believe) to be correct scientifically without any handwaving to make obviously harmless thoughts seem like murderous intent needing to be done.

>>50218235
Okay. That's a valid argument.

>Humans literally had art and sea faring before we had government.
This is not.

If this retard admitting that he wants to murder people doesn't clue you in to how worthless his opinions are, I don't know what will.

>>50218253
Him denying that addiction to smartphones or the internet don't exist nor are big social problems is another funny one especially since governments pay more attention to it now. Anything to seem like you had an epick internet argument won.

>>50218247
My point is, appealing to the fact that other people agree with you isn't a strong argumentation tactic.
All you've done is made people repulsed by you. Look, I'm not a philosophy student. I'm an archaeology student. I'm assuming you're a philosophy student here.
But maybe you should take debate, oration(?), or whatever they call those communication classes. That way you can get better at convincing people you're right.Also I'm not paying for another philosophy class, one semester was enough.

In an ideal board, this thread gets janny'd for being off-topic. This is not 2hu lore discussion but retard discussion.

>>50210265
Wait, is that hiroshimoot?

>>50218247
I think that depends on what you consider government, to be honest.

>>50218274
A general discussion that consists entirely of an autistic asshole posting his let's play and people trying to troll him has been allowed to exist for over a week at this point, the mods don't care anymore.

>>50218244
>It shouldn't be rocket science for him to post verifiable proof that "most" (over 50% bare minimum) of people want to kill their neighbors out of fear
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence#one
https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-08/Does_Imprisonment_Deter_A_Review_of_the_Evidence.pdfhttps://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11655585/

Most information we have about deterrence indicates that the biggest indicator, far more than the actual severity of the punishment, is the risk of being caught. A society like Gensokyo would, by default, have far more crime than the outside world due to not having a police force.

Outside of that, there has been no formal study of the underlying psychology of Hobbes. This is probably the best I could find on relatively short notice: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hobbes-moral/

>B-But you said most people
Yeah, based on actual understanding of psychology. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you want a exact quote where somebody asked 51% of humanity how they feel about murdering their neighbor? Fuck, sorry, forgot I'm dealing with hopeless autists that failed high school.

>>50218287
I mean if you consider hunter-gathering a type of government/social contract whatever. then... uh, I guess you have complete anarchy.
But complete anarchy isn't the natural state of humans, being a hunter-gather is. Any farther before that and you get proto-humans, and looking at species closely related to humans and what we know of proto-humans they were social creatures as well.
But the human village isn't complete anarchy. We can see this because they have a social contract, as in generally agreed rules by which they interact with each other.
Even if there isn't a supreme governmental entity.

>>50218259
>Him denying that addiction to smartphones or the internet don't exist nor are big social problems
I'm denying that they are all that harmful. It's a laughable bit of projection that is impossible to take seriously.

>"I'm too stupid to not be addicted to the internet."
>"So it's best if it's taken away from everybody else."

>>50218309
Anon, criminals are people who have already decided to do crime. All that prove is that people who have already decided to violate the social contract, for one reason or another, are less inclined to do so if they believe they're going to get caught.

>>50218271
>My point is, appealing to the fact that other people agree with you isn't a strong argumentation tactic.
Neither is claiming fairly mainstream philosophy is edgy serial killer behavior.

>All you've done is made people repulsed by you.
None of them were arguing in good faith or have the intellectual capacity to discuss this subject matter, so I find it hard to care.

> I'm assuming you're a philosophy student here.
No? I've mostly just finished high school and actually thought about the stuff I learned rather than shoveling it away the moment I left. Like I said, you don't need to agree with anything but a basic working knowledge of the literal fundamental western philosophers is a basic part of any even decent education.

>>50218320
Anon, if you don't intended to convince people you're correct and think so little of your opposition. Why are you arguing at all?
Also, I find it hard to take you seriously now that you've revealed you don't even have a higher education in the subject you're trying to lecture us on. For what it's worth most of my psych 101 class thought Hobbes was crazy, aside from one guy who wanted to use the ring of gyges to take over the world.

>>50218311
This, exactly. it would be one thing if Gensokyo was a complete anarchy, like it was vaguely implied to be in PCB and earlier works amusingly, but it obviously is not. The question therefore mostly comes down to what the social contract is (And I'm talking the human social contract, Youkai are outsiders who don't partake in human society for the most part) and how it's maintained. If there are no laws and no police force, then what happens if somebody kills somebody or steals? They get expelled by a angry mob? Okay, fair enough. So what if next 40 people decide to start stealing and killing and work together to make sure they can't be thrown out. Youkai get involved? Not impossible, but the same argument that states Youkai have a stake in maintaining the human village also largely prevents them from just killing those 40 people. Most likely they would empower a lot of local figures to maintain society. You can have that and still maintain a decentralized society.

>>50218317
>Anon, criminals are people who have already decided to do crime.
No, a criminal is a person that DID a crime. At best you can charge somebody with attempted murder. You can't charge somebody iwth literal thoughtcrimes.

>>50218338
I think forty some off people banding together to be bandits is likely, but yes if a significantly disruptive thing happened in the village I think the youkai would step in to protect their food source. Also Youkai are literally part of Gensokyo's society and partake in it, they aren't outsiders.
Largely, I think if someone commits a crime the villagers deal with it themselves. Although i wonder how the person is punished, I can see banishment from the village since that's basically a death sentence but a organized force of humans would end up like the secret history of gensokyo society, i.e dissolved by Keine.
>>50218345
Sorry, slip of the tongue, it's a bit late here. But if this is talking about the behavior of people who already committed crimes, thus violated the social contract. Then it's not really useful in this situation as we're talking about what a normal person who hasn't violated the social contract.

>>50218357
>but yes if a significantly disruptive thing happened in the village I think the youkai would step in to protect their food source.
To do what? Kill them all?

>Also Youkai are literally part of Gensokyo's society and partake in it, they aren't outsiders.
I'm talking about human village. Not Gensokyo. Most Youkai live alone in the woods. They are not part of human society in Gensokyo.

>Largely, I think if someone commits a crime the villagers deal with it themselves
How? If somebody kills somebody and pays 40 people to guard himself from a angry mob, what is going to happen? That's not banding together like a bandit, that's just using the money you have. And even if youkai do get involved, again, what are they going to do? Kill everybody?

> dissolved by Keine.
They WEREN'T dissolved by Keine. They still exist, far as we know, even today.

>But if this is talking about the behavior of people who already committed crimes, thus violated the social contract
The issue is that would require there being somebody to enforce the social contract in the first place. If there is no social contract, then there is no crime. A rich person would only be rich to the extent that they are able to defend their wealth.

>>50218378
40 humans banding together to form a bandit gang seems like a big enough upset that the youkai would deal with them. If you just have a giant angry mob, I think Reimu or whoever would try to peacefully stop them. They are just humans after all, and they probably wouldn't want to kill everybody. But some asshole paying people to protect himself from a mob that trying to kill him in return, probably does get dealt with by Keine, Reimu, or Youkai since it's such a big disruption to the human village.
Aside from that, as Gensokyo isn't complete anarchy, I do think there is a social contract and the villagers and whatever few guards they have deal with internal matters for the most part. Humans always exist in a state of social contract, so obviously there crimes and taboos. Like for instance, becoming a youkai.

>>50218392
Like I said, it doesn't have to be a bandit gang. Besides, what I describe is closer to organzied crime. A group of Yakuza basically has no opposition in gensokyo and there's fuck all the youkai can do about it other than murdering them all.

> probably does get dealt with by Keine, Reimu, or Youkai since it's such a big disruption to the human village.
How? Are they murdered? If they get broken up, how is that practically enforced? Are they locked up? What happens if they all just decide to start trying to kill Keine or reimu?

>whatever few guards they have deal with internal matters for the most par
Who pays the guards, then? And what is preventing somebody from just buying off the guard with more money than they are regularly paid?

All of this comes back to it essentially being a anarcho capitalist society where the rich can dictate all terms and nobody other than Youkai serving as any kind of check to their power and influence. Which, assuming that check can't just be murder, mostly means they will be more than open to simply letting them largely do as they please.

>>50218410
What can the Yakuza do, extort people when the humans have Zashiki-warashi? Smuggle when Mamziosu already has that market cornered and she won't stoop to something to raise her reputation, commit petty crimes when humans have Zashiki-warashi? I imagine there would be small time crime, but a criminal syndicate would probably get broken up.
Also I doubt they could kill Keine or Reimu, what are they going to do that's feasibly a threat to them? Also escalating is a bad idea when more strong people could just be brought in.
Also I think someone rich enough to bribe all the guards would violate the taboo against an absolute ruler of the human village. But yes, if a human or group of humans become a big enough threat they'd have to be disbanded. I guess they could be killed, but Yukari or a sage could come up with a clever plan.
Most of them time bad guys are defeated they're sent to religious institutions in the series so I imagine the various factions would handle the issues of imprisonment.
Also the youkai aren't one solid power block, it's literally a plot point that they are divided into factions mostly along racial lines. Wild, Tengu, Kappa, Inaba, Tengu, Foxes..etc

>>50218443
>What can the Yakuza do, extort people when the humans have Zashiki-warashi?
What are those tiny ghosts going to against armed thugs?

>Smuggle when Mamziosu already has that market cornered
That's very debatable and either way: If Mamizou has standards and they do not then by default that means there are going to avenues of income open to them.

>but a criminal syndicate would probably get broken up.
By who? How would that be enforced? Would the leaders be arrested and thrown into a jail? Who pays for the jail?

>Also I doubt they could kill Keine or Reimu,
They don't have to kill reimu or Keine. If they refuse to accept their authority, there is fuck all they can do about it.

>Also escalating is a bad idea when more strong people could just be brought in.
To do what? Again, the issue here isn't "They can't be stopped if they are banned together" the issue is "They can only be stopped through murder" Marisa can't just start massacring townpeople, even assuming she would be okay with that.

>Also I think someone rich enough to bribe all the guards would violate the taboo against an absolute ruler of the human village.
Lol? No? All it would require would be for one person to be richer than the rest. Which we know to be a thing. Bribes are not that expensive and unless the guards are paid VERY good salaries paying most of them off would be pocket change.

>Most of them time bad guys are defeated they're sent to religious institutions in the series
Not really, no. Either way, what, you think Reimu keeps a dungeon around?

>Also the youkai aren't one solid power block, it's literally a plot point that they are divided into factions mostly along racial lines. Wild, Tengu, Kappa, Inaba, Tengu, Foxes..etc
That's even worse because that means the various powers have all the more reason to raise certain humans above others.

>>50218469
It's called magic, Zashiki-warashi have it, they would also report any gang to the sages and can be told to not help the households of the gangsters and only spy on them. Even Marisa can be punted through several trees, I'm sure she could beat up 40-odd villagers fine. Although that feels more like a Reimu, Keine, Yukari, or Okina problem.
Murder isn't the only solution to every problem, and whenever an incident mastermind happens and they're determined to still be a problem Reimu or the Myouren temple takes them in. If they refuse to recognize Keine's authority nothing is stopping them from being round up, exiled outside the village, killed, being foribly taken in my Miko, Byakruen, made to work at the Hakurei or Moriya shrine, be made to work at the Myouren temple. I think it would get messy, but if it came down to it I think
Although I think this situation you are proposing is very contrived. But yeah, I think someone bribing all the guards would violate the rule about an absolute ruler. That's just common sense.

>>50218487
It's called magic, Zashiki-warashi have it,
Fairies have it as well. Guess who are mentioned as easily getting teh shit kicked out of them by any adult human?

> they would also report any gang to the sages and can be told to not help the households of the gangsters and only spy on them.
Oh no, the horror. I'm sure the gangsters care when they are making fat checks from theft and extortion.

>Even Marisa can be punted through several trees, I'm sure she could beat up 40-odd villagers fine.
Alright, congratulations, you beat up 40 people. Now what? What's going to stop them from doing another crime?

>and whenever an incident mastermind happens and they're determined to still be a problem Reimu or the Myouren temple takes them in.
This isn't a incident, anon. This is a social organization that has chosen to maintain their livelihood through crime. What, is Reimu going to keep a Yakuza gang in her shrine? is Myouren?

> nothing is stopping them from being round up, exiled outside the village, killed
Which would be just as bad if not worse than letting them do as they please.

> being foribly taken in my Miko, Byakruen
How? How are they going to take care of 40 people? How are they going to keep them under lock and key?

>made to work at the Hakurei or Moriya shrine
All of them? Enforced by what? What is stopping them from murdering reimu in her sleep the moment it's nightfall or running away?

>Although I think this situation you are proposing is very contrived.
The situation I'm describing is literally the fundamental nature of human organization. Ignore the Yakuza, 40 farmers banding together could take over Gensokyo in a afternoon.

>I think someone bribing all the guards would violate the rule about an absolute ruler.
No, it fucking wouldn't. My dad paid off some cops in Indonesia. Is he the absolute ruler of Indonesia now? He's a marine biologist.

>>50218505
I think a gand forming in the human village is incident worthy, especially if they aren't playing by the rules.
Well I assume it would be messy, but they can split responsibility. You're trying to get detailed political policy in response to a crisis me right now, I think they could handle it reasonably but aside from that I can't give any details without exploring the situation through some sort of fanfic.
I'd be willing to write a fanfic about this with you, but I'm busy right now. Maybe you can ask Impaler for help or roleplay this situation in Mutants and Masterminds?
Also I didn't need to know that about your dad. But I think bribing all of the guards and expanding your power base like that would break the taboo against an absolute ruler.
And yes if your father bribed all of the cops in Indonesia and had them under his thumb he'd effectively be an ruler of sorts.

>>50218515
>I think a gand forming in the human village is incident worthy, especially if they aren't playing by the rules.
You're missing the point, anon. It's not a fun adventure that can be resolved by spellcard duels by people looking to make trouble.

> You're trying to get detailed political policy in response to a crisis me right now,
It's not a fucking crisis, it's literally something as fundamental to human society as agriculture.

> Maybe you can ask Impaler for help or roleplay this situation in Mutants and Masterminds?
I actually portray the human village as a actual society so there is no need for this kind of insanely retarded nonsense.
>Guards are paid for by rich people
>Rich people make their living trading with Youkai.
>Youkai use these connections to keep them under some form of control.
I go out of my way to pretty consistently show there really is no practical difference between Yakuza thugs and the way the guard functions other than the guard generally being made up of more relaxed people just trying to earn a living. The main reason why is not grimdark is because I also generally write the rich people in charge as being weird eccentrics.

>lso I didn't need to know that about your dad. But I think bribing all of the guards and expanding your power base like that would break the taboo against an absolute ruler.
Being a administrator would break that taboo. Akyuu has servants. Is she breaking that taboo?

>And yes if your father bribed all of the cops in Indonesia and had them under his thumb he'd effectively be an ruler of sorts.
He probably could afford to bribe every cop in some of the cities we stayed in and that doesnt mean he is the mayor or that the central government would stop him. A random oil sheik could probably bribe every cop in the country and that sure as fuck would not make him the president either.

>>50218538
If a gang forming in the human village isn't incident worthy I don't know what is. 40 humans banding together to form a gang to threaten to peace of the human village for reasons is a crisis. Also humans commit crimes for a reason, so if conditions are bad enough to cause the forming of a large gang I think there are other problems as well.
Also stop trying to dox yourself, it's embarrassing and I don't want you to get others doxed and well. Also playing tabletops games isn't insane. You do it.
But you do come across as a crazy person. Also a giant criminal conspiracy is incident worthy and I don't think someone like that would be tolerated if they disrupted the village.
>I also generally write
So, you are a writer. Imapler is embarrassed by you, so you;re probably not him, or you could have just been the M&M groups DM...
Also Akyuu having hosehold servants is way different from a giant criminal conspiracy and causing conflict in the village.

>>50218552
>If a gang forming in the human village isn't incident worthy I don't know what is.
Remilia making a poison cloud that would cover the sun and kill everybody.

>40 humans banding together to form a gang to threaten to peace of the human village for reasons is a crisis.
It's normal. Literally no reason to assume it was ever not the case in Gensokyo.

>Also stop trying to dox yourself,
I really don't care much

>Also a giant criminal conspiracy is incident worthy
God, you are terminally stupid.

>So, you are a writer.
It's a RPG game, lol.

>Also humans commit crimes for a reason, so if conditions are bad enough to cause the forming of a large gang I think there are other problems as well.
If any degree of inequality exists there will be people looking to steal.

>Also Akyuu having hosehold servants is way different from a giant criminal conspiracy and causing conflict in the village.
It isn't. But you aren't smart enough to understand this.

>>50218564
Right, a criminal conspiracy isn't any different from having household servants.
Anyways I've stayed up too late arguing with you again, I hope you have a good day.
Also I do really think this contrived scenario of a gang of 40 violent Yakuza in the human village is good fanfic/RPG material.
Maybe you should consider running a game about that scenario. Also yes I do consider being a DM as being a writer.
Have a good night.

>>50218568
>Right, a criminal conspiracy isn't any different from having household servants.
If there are no laws there is no crime. Therefore, what you call a criminal conspiracy is just a master and servants.

>>50216371
grimsokyo is pretty dumb
>hey guys, what if the comfy inaka village where people are generally pretty chill was actually in total anarchy with murder and rape at every street corner like the dark alleys of NYC in the 1990s?!

this all doesn't make sense until you put jews into the equation

>>50218731
You mean Kappas or Tengus?

>>50218735
actual jews, not wannabe jews

>>50218741
Those don't exist in Gensokyo
That's what you mean by it not making sense, correct?

>>50218731
That true, this Nork guy just isn't aware of the fact that most of humanity's problems are caused by Jews like him.
So of course a Gensokyo without Jews would be a peaceful place.

>>50218747
yeah, the tengu and kappa ultimately want what's best for gensokyo though tilted in their favour. Jews want to destabilise the goyim for no other reason than to be masters of the world

>>50202874 (OP)
My head canon is that the village is a big form of entertainment for the Youkai, in the Truman show sense.
I mean, from their perspective, they get to watch evolving social dynamics and the passing of generations, so they could conceivably follow a human being from cradle to grave, maybe even intervening a bit if they grow fond of their antics or want to influence them in some way. There's probably all sorts of claims and counter-claims on who gets to mess with which humans and who's off-limits because they saved a fox from a bear trap when they were young and that fox turned out to be the daughter of a high-ranking kitsune who'll blow your head off if you mess with her daughter's savior.
Sort of like what's been discussed here: >>50212957 but with the added element that the Youkai have an emotional connection to the village, so even if they one day were ALLOWED to eat humans, they wouldn't be able to bring themselves to do it because the world would be less interesting.

It's kind of like the super ego of Youkai got seduced by the super ego of humanity.

>>50218309
Neither of those articles state that most people consider killing their neighbors or that they don't act on those feelings out of fear (nor do they gauge how serious the feelings are), they only talk about crime broadly which would require even worse handwaving than I already described which means you fail. As I said, it's not provable so stop going around pretending, let alone true to a fictional setting like Touhou.
>A society like Gensokyo would, by default, have far more crime than the outside world due to not having a police force.
Also fanfiction simply because there's no data to work off of, it's unequivocally impossible to say it is canon.
>Yeah, based on actual understanding of psychology
That says nothing that actually proves your opinion as a fact meaning you failed this basic challenge again.
>I'm dealing with hopeless autists that failed high school
I'm not the one shitting out endless paragraphs all day long on a Taiwanese puppetry board trying to desperately find research articles that can only look like they support my views on a fictional setting on the surface level at best.

>>50217122
Well I have to say, I don't either of us is convicing the other, but I prefer my theory. If I had to say why, it'd be because it's more epic and I really like Rainworld.
To explain, in my view the Lunarians were originally Celestials from Takamagahara who descended to earth to cleanse it of impurity through ascension. Thus life would leave the planet earth. This duty was put onto them by the Ministry of Right and Wrong, who wants people to ascend up the karmic latter.
But eventually through failure after failure, and realizing the enormity of the task they were given, the heavenly gods wavered and began constructing their plan to take over the moon and build an artificial pure land. In this endeavor they imprisoned gods that would oppose them and tried to ply others to their side, mainly ones who has useful abilities.
This resulted in a contingent of Lunarian society that was originally human or earth;y god, now made heavenly at least partly through some process.
I also like this because it mirror how I view the creation of Gensokyo, Yukari, fearing the future doom of the earth and having been to Gensokyo in her past like as Maribel, decided to get in on the ground floor and assemble a team to create the Hakurei Barrier. Here various humans, youkai, gods, half-youkai, and others were gathered with honeyed promises. But Yukari betrayed some of her collaborators: like how Suika first thought Gensokyo was meant to be a playground for Youkai, the others--except for the canny ones, namely the surviving Sages--died. Which is where you have Mima's place in my headcanon, she was a misanthropic human that thought Gensokyo was the first step to over throwing the human dominated system of the world, and replace it again with one that Youkai ruled. Of course, unlike Suika she couldn't be persuaded to put down this cause and had to be killed.

>>50218722
Did you actually read what I said or did you just do this for half a hour and then shit out this comment?

>>50218758
Youkai are like Nazis insofar that if you guiltlessly slaughter them the world becomes a objectively better place.

>>50218969
Obviously. Tormenting and messing with humans is fun for youkai. Just because they can't kill them doesn't mean it's not fun.

Can I get a TLDR of this thread?

>>50219011
>Also fanfiction simply because there's no data to work off of, it's unequivocally impossible to say it is canon.
I agree, and I generally tend to assume they do have guards.

>That says nothing that actually proves your opinion as a fact meaning you failed this basic challenge again.
It outright shows that the main thing that matters is the fear of being caught. Even more so than the actual punishment.

> that can only look like they support my views on a fictional setting on the surface level at best.
Mostly cause I have to explain to you that people don't just magically stop doing crimes because youkai exist.

>>50220469
Started off continuing a conversation from a previous thread. Then turned into a argument about what kind of a society the human village would be.

>>50220489
To my understanding of ZUN's ramblings, the human village is like real life, full of good people, bad people, and idiotic people.
Most Youkai are con artists as well.

>>50220498
>To my understanding of ZUN's ramblings, the human village is like real life, full of good people, bad people, and idiotic people.
Which is funny since he nigh on universally shows them as saint like people who are too good for this world and don't deserve to suffer.

Either way, yeah, I do tend to assume they are like that. Basically a anarcho capitalist state in practice, with rich merchants trading with Youkai being in charge but in a heavily decentralized manner.

>>50220522
I'm pretty sure it just works as a small hick town in the middle of nowhere, with some feudalist influence.

>>50220469
>>50220489
There was also a conversation about how divorce would be in Gensokyo.

>>50220543
It's the size of a small city and there have been exactly zero samurai shown.

I'm sorry Nork, this will be my last response to you here.
But this was too funny not to post.

>>50220594
Also Nazis. Subhumans, essentially.

>>50220606
Don't forget plant life and mothers.

>>50220613
Non humans and subhumans, as well as you projecting your hatred of your human mother.

>>50220590
Well that's just weird, ZUN should do something about it.

>>50220617
>your human mother.
Strange you have to specify that.

>>50220620
Because you are a Nazi. You hate all humans by default.

>>50220594
holy fucking kek

>>50220619
It is weird and It's mostly the result of the human village being underwritten.

I'm not expecting Frank Herbert level of worldbuilding but they could at least explain how the human village actually works in practice.

ATTENTION! The thread hit bump, remember to bake a new one if you want to continue calling people nazis for being waifufags, disagreeing with you on touhou, and having the same circular arguments over and over again.

>>50220474
>It outright shows that the main thing that matters is the fear of being caught. Even more so than the actual punishment
It doesn't, there are numerous ways to reduce crime and crime does not always just happen because fear reduces it. The motivators of crime are many and all the studies do is say that people being afraid of punishment reduces them. The problem remains, you cannot prove tjat most people sincerely think about killing their neighbors which means you are just wrong.
>Mostly cause I have to explain to you that people don't just magically stop doing crimes because youkai exist
No, but they don't magically start doing crime just because there is less of a chance of getting caught either. Crime has a starting point in and of itself and denying it is lunacy, high-trust societies exist (or rather, existed) where criminality was simply relatively less of a burden.
But that's besides the point since criminality was what the other anon was invested in. I only wanted to harp on 50%+ of people being neighborkillers being an S-tier retard statement that you cannot prove.

Ignoring the schizophrenia
>>50220619
>>50220645
I agree. Sadly the Human Village is mainly around to be a setpiece for stories focused on the non residents of it. Maybe if we ever get another human character like Kosuzers or a Keine focused story.

>>50221400
There is Forbidden Scrollery, and maybe CDS can deal with it more in the future.
I'd like to see Mizuchi hanging out on the town.

>>50220766
>there are numerous ways to reduce crime and crime does not always just happen because fear reduces it.
There are numerous ways to reduce it but we are talking about the more effective one. Besides, what is your argument for Gensokyo having much crime?

>Crime has a starting point in and of itself and denying it is lunacy, high-trust societies exist (or rather, existed) where criminality was simply relatively less of a burden.
It's literally fundamentally impossible for a society like Gensokyo to be high trust as being high trust requires modernism. Japan, even during the edo period, was about as far removed from being high trust as possible. I don't expect you to understand that however. Nor do I expect you to explain how a society constantly terrorized by Youkai and fairies can be high trust.

>>50221400
Kosuzu was such a waste since she might as well not have been a human villager since she had zero human friends and genuinly didn't seem to care about any of them.

>>50223478
aren't you the one arguing gensokyo is a high crime society

>>50223483
>since she had zero human friends and genuinly didn't seem to care about any of them.
Akyuu? Reimu? Marisa?

>>50223973
Race traitors are subhuman nazis.

>>50224041
Everyone in the village kisses up to Youkai. What Reimu does isn't special beyond the fact she's used as a scapegoat for the phenomenon so they can try and fool the magical censors that cause the setting to fall apart if they don't keep up pretenses.

>>50223478
You seem to be confused and you also keep ignoring the basic challenge of proving that 50%+ of people want to seriously kill their neighbors but don't out of fear of reprisal in favor of tangents about scientific studies you don't understand.
It's a simple task, provide evidence that it is true, not tangents based off of statistics that do not apply at all to this. Anything else is actually irrelevant to the point.
If you ignore this again I'll just consider you a shitter.
>It's literally impossible because it requires modernism
This is fanfiction. A random village out in the middle of nowhere is not necessarily a rat's nest of crime just because it slightly predates the industrial revolution. I've already mentioned that there is literally no concrete evidence to go off of for the village having rampant crime, violent or otherwise, as we have no data to use. A high trust society simply requires a culture of empathy or at least respect that people sincerely believe in. Extrapolating historical fact to ill fit a fictional setting does not work, especially when Gensokyo clearly does not work exactly like Edo society. There are no Samurai or Samurai class for one and the Shogun is fucking irrelevant because he stopped being relevant to Gensokyo 200 years ago. Going on a tangent about this is basically just wanking about hypotheticals, in which case I'll just say that youkai women fuck human men because it's probably got more basis in the lore Touhou uses and it's funnier.
>There are numerous ways to reduce it but we are talking about the more effective one. Besides, what is your argument for Gensokyo having much crime?
You seem to be talking ahead of yourself, maybe I was reading incorrectly, but I thought I was reading "Gensokyo/the village has lots of crime because there is no certainty of punishment"
Admittedly, the certainty of punishment does deter crime as referred to in https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4605853
However, crime deterrent is not the same as people being motivated to do crime. To consider doing crime, they have to be motivated in the first place and there's no case to prove that there is a huge motivation for committing crime within the setting unless you're a youkai bullying other youkai or Marisa stealing Patchouli's books or something.
No, what I mean in actuality is that a lot of places aren't reducing crime by becoming police states with cameras everywhere. Even a place like China, which definitely has cameras, is not massively reducing crime by doing this. They just drag it underground where finding out someone did something is hard.
Instead governments try stuff like this: https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/news/eu-project-group-violence-intervention-helps-prevent-violence-and-create-safer-communities-sweden-2025-08-25_en
Which actually massively reduced crime where it was implemented. Alongside this, other measures that make a decent community can be implemented or occur naturally whether the community is large (city-sized) or small.
>>50223779
I wouldn't know what he thinks every day but that's what I assumed reading the previous posts.