what are the chances for a first rate ship of the line to sink a modern frigate? no radars, gps or recon involved

0

at close range they very much could sink one, as modern frigates are made out of paper mache.one full broadside along the water line would do it.

the naval gun on the frigate would kill the ship of the line, but probably won't sink it.

>>63857036 (OP)
If it teleports/sneaks/spawns 400 yards away good chances.
At other ranges frigate would just quickly move away completely out of range (at sea hiting ships beyond 1000 yards was nearly impossible because of low accuracy of gun shooting due to ship roll, land canons could hit ship 1000 yards away with about 80% hit rates)

>>63857087
>the naval gun on the frigate would kill the ship of the line, but probably won't sink it.
It would be set on fire and burns out. At such target form 2 mile away (impossible for ship of the line hit back) for even 76mm would have like 90% hit rates and wooden hull is terrible protection vs HE shells.

>>63857114
yes, the modern naval gun would wreck the ship of the line, but it probably won't sink. it'll burn.

if both were within 200 yards of one another and opened up, they'd both be killed.

The fragments created by the explosion of a HE shell have the same heat as a heated shot.

>>63857036 (OP)
one of the anti-boat autocannons would be enough to kill everyone inside the first rate from far beyond the first rate's range, let alone relying on something like a 57mm gun

>>63857036 (OP)
Nil, it can't hit shit past a couple of hundred meters and a modern frigate can engage at several km with only guns.
>but what if it appeared next to it
But what if a guy with a pistol appeared inside a tank? Sure he could kill the crew but it's a retarded hypothetical because it's not going to happen.

>>63857135
>but it probably won't sink. it'll burn
NTA, but I think it'd sooner sink than burn given the amount of overpenetration we're dealing with.
And even if it did "just" burn, that's a death sentence on a ship made of wood, so it'd sink either way.

>>63857036 (OP)
O. Hell, the .50s on the upperdecks have more accurate range than anything they have. Just keep firing at the people with shiny shoulders until the ship is in disarray.

>>63857171
This. Even a single .50 firing blue tips would absolutely wreck the first rate. Ships like that were floating tinderboxes. Gunpowder everywhere, oil lamps, hemp and canvas rigging, tar waterproofing. It wouldn't even be 30 seconds before you had hundreds of fires going all over the ship, and that's assuming you didn't hit gunpowder. And if we're talking 20mm or bigger it's an even bigger curbstomp.

>>63857135
I don't think the first rate would be much of a threat to the frigate even if we assume the two ships appear right next to each other. Yes, it's cannons could put holes in the frigate's hull, but only through the outer hull and then maybe an internal wall or two, and that's assuming a hit above the waterline. A modern frigate is compartmentalized, the first rate would inflict some damage but I doubt it would have a chance at sinking the frigate. How many shots is the first rate even going to get off once autocannon fire is raking the decks? I doubt they'd manage to get off more than one broadside. Keep in mind a modern frigate is double the size of a First Rate.

>>63857641
more like thrice the size, and over 10 times heavier. there's no chance in hell.

>>63857036 (OP)
All it takes is one tracer finding it's way through the gunpowder magazine and the first rate explodes

>>63857036 (OP)
zero

>>63857087
>probably won't sink it
no ship of the line is going to survive six hundred 5" shells at 15rpm directed at the waterline, dumbass
just one minute of accurate fire and the modern frigate can run off, leaving a sinking first rate behind
not to mention a modern frigate has three times the speed and doesn't have to bother about the weather gage

>>63857087
>the naval gun on the frigate would kill the ship of the line, but probably won't sink it.
a single 5" SAP shell goes through the hull and explodes in the magazine. fight over

>>63857036 (OP)
Not good. The Frigate would need to be completely asleep at the wheel long enough for the 1st Rate to get within 500 yards of the frigate. It's also only got one chance to kill the frigate. .50 cals will sweep the 1st rate's deck in minutes and the main gun will reduce the hull to splinters.

>>63857052
Fpbp

>>63857036 (OP)
Guess you can look up the fight between css Virginia and uss monitor to get an idea

>>63857036 (OP)
Didn't you ever see 'The Final Countdown'? 1 US super carrier could have taken out the entire Japanese Peral Harbor attack fleet! Some wooden boat couldn't stand a chance a US frigate

>>63858000
as far as i remember both went their separate ways after failing to damage one another, what's your point?

>>63858024
I literally just got finished watching that.
Man, the carrier guys fucked up big time.

>>63857036 (OP)
Could a modern frigate take on the Flying Dutchman?

>>63857936
SAP would punch out the far side. Better go with HE with a contact fuse. It'll turn the gun decks into an abattoir.

>>63858360
Only if the ship Chaplain can bless the ordinance.

>>63858024
The only person who would disagree is a battleship loony.

>>63858363
the hulls of fighting ships were ~2 feet thick at the waterline and made from extremely dense old-growth timber, then they were filled with more objects and people, and finally the magazine itself had another layer of timber and copper plating on the inside. All told, the shell may need to go through about 4' of wood to reach the magazine, which I believe should be more than enough to set off a medium-caliber SAP fuse

>>63857036 (OP)
If the modern frigate is operates by pajeets, then 25%

>>63858368
>Expecting blessed shells to do anything
There are things older and stronger than your religion, landlubber.

>>63857036 (OP)
Thermal and cameras alone spot the ship and allow it to be engaged well outside of the range of the ship's cannons. Even 20-30mm guns could keep out of the range of the ships in question, and if it has a CIWS that can chip in too.

I'm now imagining a frigate blind firing 21 RAM missiles or 8 Sea Sparrows into a ship of the line, though.

>>63857135
>but it probably won't sink. it'll burn.
do you know what happens to ships after they burn?
a ship of the line is made mostly out of oak caulked with pine tar. it might be hard to get going but it will be nigh impossible to put out.

>>63857036 (OP)
You do know that the first ironclads like the warrior couldn't be sunk by a ship of a line so why would you think a modern frigate would work instead?

>>63858642
>Are those her ribs through which the Sun
>Did peer, as through a grate?
>And is that Woman all her crew?
>Is that a DEATH? and are there two?
>Is DEATH that woman's mate?

>Her lips were red, her looks were free,
>Her locks were yellow as gold:
>Her skin was as white as leprosy,
>The Night-mare LIFE-IN-DEATH was she,
>Who thicks man's blood with cold.

>The naked hulk alongside came,
>And the twain were casting dice;
>'The game is done! I've won! I've won!'
>Quoth she, and whistles thrice.

>>63858837
a modern frigate isn't going to sink, but that's an improper comparison; modern frigates aren't armoured like ironclads

that said, fifty 18th century cannonballs in the side of e.g. a Perry-class frigate isn't going to sink it, unless they have the damage-control capabilities of the Russian Navy. sure, fifty 6" balls of metal will kill some sailors and let in some water, but it won't explode and set fire to anything, and a modern warship can handle that easily

>>63858877
This. The frigate has nowhere near the armor of even an early ironclad. Basically what would happen in this fantasy duel is the modern warship's compartmentalization and pumps allow it to face tank the first-rate's initial broadside, and then the battle is over the moment the frigate starts lighting up the first rate with anything bigger than a .30 cal.

>>63858877
You'd basically need a full broadside worth of hits. 50+ 12" holes would do a lot to cripple a Frigate, possibly enough to overwhelm DC teams while the 1st rate gets a second volley off.

Of course, we're talking a range of less than 500 yards.

>>63858943
The cannons of a first rate would be nowhere near that big. Taking the HMS victory as an example, the total broadside would be:
15x 32-pound on lower gundeck, about 6.25 inches bore
14x 24-pound on the middle gundeck, about 5.5 inches
15x 12-pound on the upper gundeck, about 4.5 inches

>>63859002
In hindsight, I've mixed up my pounds and inches.

>>63858943
>second volley
there's not going to be a second volley
within the two minutes or so it takes an RN crew to reload, any frigate can blow a ship of the line away. even the slowest common naval guns of today can spit out fifteen shells a minute; an Oto Melara 3 inch will do about seventy shells

a first-rate is barely 200 feet long and its gundecks have no subdivision by design. imagine filling an area 200 feet by about 50 feet with a barrage of high explosive shells. a modern warship's cannon can strafe the length of the ship and massacre the entire crew in one minute.

>>63859090
>filling an area 200 feet by about 50 feet
It's not just that. It's an area 200 feet by about 50 feet with a whole bunch of gunpowder inside.

One of these babies can spit out *900* 40mm in 1 minute

>>63859112
>with a whole bunch of gunpowder inside.
oh yeah that too
but it's really thought of all the shrapnel and oak-hard splinters flying around that makes me shudder

picrel is an Oto Melara firing 16 rounds in 10 seconds

>>63857036 (OP)
if it has to sail up and fire, no chance

>>63859112
>>63859180
Not to mention accuracy I remenber that a lot of shots were missed by ships in the Spanish American war which lead to increase training on firing after the war.

>>63859090
That's why you need the full broadside to hit. Anything less than that and the main gun is probably still working. If the main gun still works the game is over. Even if the salvo hits most of the shots need to be grouped right under the main gun to try to trash the ammo handling mechanisms.

>>63859230
The problem is that if *anything* is still working on the Frigate you're fucked. Anything bigger than a .30 cal is pretty much instant death.

What about a Battleship vs modern Carrier?

>>63859230
fuck you, I'm now imagining the final battle from Master & Commander except Russel Crowe is ordering the crew to concentrate fire on the 76mm gun instead of the mast

and then they successfully board and carry the fucking frigate lmao

>>63859270
>plane kills it from 1200km away

These things are not much smaller than a cannonball, and they can hit you with pinpoint accuracy from 20 miles away. And a modern autocannon can belch out 180 of them per minute. The sailship will never know what him it

>>63857368
>but it's a retarded hypothetical because it's not going to happen.

Says the guy arguing about a ship of the line fighting a modern frigate

>>63859347
>then they successfully board and carry the fucking frigate lmao

Tbh that probably would be their best bet.

Also y'all niggas forgetting about carronades.

There's also a big difference between say HMS Victory circa Trafalgar and HMS Victoria of 1859, so you've gotta be specific.

>>63859468
>20 miles away

u wot

>>63857036 (OP)
Modern ship eats the full boradside, DC tends the holes just fine, someone uses merely the available flares to burn the frigate to the waterline.

>>63857036 (OP)
Zero point zero. Any modern artillery piece has a better effective range even eyeballed (no iron sights or any instruments involved). A fucking CIWS gun has a better effective range, even.
>>63857087
>modern frigates are made out of paper mache
It is a well known fact that iron- and steel-hulled sailships were superior to wooden ones in every way. That's not to mention that any modern ship has bulkheads and damage control and would therefore outlast a ship without those. Also no broadside would be able to disable modern frigate's weapons or sink it fast enough before being obliterated by return fire.

>>63857036 (OP)
I'd give it to the frigate because, even though they're both flimsy unarmored vessels that can penetrate each other, the frigate's guns and missiles can be aimed to hit the SoTL's weak spots while the SoTL can only hope a barrage will hit something important.

>>63857036 (OP)
If the ship of the line can get close enough for the crew to board (big if) they'd likely rip through the yellow-bellied mutts (or whoever is on board) with cutlasses and flintlocks due to higher testosterone.

>>63859726
It is possible, someone could build a ship of the line and attack a modern frigate.
Teleportation is not possible based on our current understanding.

When you violate the laws of physics it becomes a step more retarded than the bad decision making of taking a museum piece to war.

>>63858360
>Could a modern frigate take on the Flying Dutchman?

no frigate on the planet could pass Max Verstappen, even on wet tyres..

>>63860098
>someone could build a ship of the line and attack a modern frigate.
No they couldn't. Against the law to own canons.

>>63860274
>Against the law to own canons.
What?

*SPECIAL CONDITIONS*
The modern warship believes that the First Rate Ship of the Line is supposed to be approaching it very closely as part of a maritime parade action commemorating some historic event for which both vessels are present. The crew of the tall sailing ship perfidiously ambush the modern warship at point blank range, firing an entire broadside plus salvos from the swivel guns as they bring her about for a second broadside (which they also get off successfully before the down-standing, flat-footed, diversity-hire crew of the much more modern warship finally manages to begin considering reactions, as nobody expects this hare-brained assault).
>tl;dr: 1st rate sotl gets of 2 broadsides at point blank range on the modern frigate or destroyer

...given the above, I imagine that both warships would be considered casualties.

>>63860416
That would do next to nothing to the modern ship.

>>63860437
no modern surface combatant is armored, getting 500-1000 lbs of iron fired point blank would at least mission kill the ship, probably would not sink it. in the absurd hypothertical suggested by the imperial bootlicker, to do more than mission kill they could board the ship, there would be at least 800 drunk, ass raping sailors vs 200 gay modern navy guys dressed in anti flash hoods.

who would win that fight? the modern guys with ARs vs muskets and pikes? in a boarding CQB action

>>63860469
The shells would literally bounce off. Even direct strikes from modern ordnance don't sink ships in many cases.

>boarding
One guy strafes the deck with an M2. Everybody is dead. Decisive modern victory.

>>63860469
>no modern surface combatant is armored, getting 500-1000 lbs of iron fired point blank would at least mission kill the ship
no, it wouldn't
warships are unarmoured, yes, but modern structural steel is actually stronger than prewar ship armour, and further protected by compartmentalisation. magazines and fuel have further protection as well. so Age of Sail cannonballs are not penetrating through to vitals, and you don't really need radar to shoot back

>>63857052
Virtually zero to be fair.

>>63860503
>>63860482
modern seamen slurping navy gays think dei armor can stop based cannon balls and three huzzahs for king geroge the third

>>63860416
>pic
the full name of the rebel alliance is "the alliance to restore the republic". Their chartered goal is to re-empower the galactic senate

>>63859726
>inb4 russia's new black sea fleet shows up

>>63860482
NTA, but in the scenario he outlined, how is the modern sailor going to man an m2.while he's getting his treasure plundered by aforementioned ass raping soldiers.

>>63860758
there is no way they can board before getting all gunned down to a man.

>>63860758
“All ahead flank”

Just imagine a CIWS opening up on an old ship like that. It would be a chainsaw

>>63857036 (OP)
Sailing ships are SLOW and highly dependent on the wind direction. The modern frigate could simply literally run circles around the sailing ship and demast it with machine gun fire. There's a reason sailing ships were rapidly dumped soon after the steam engine was invented.

>>63861965
I want to see it just to know if more men are killed by 20mm or splinters.

>>63862165
>There's a reason sailing ships were rapidly dumped
but they weren't. sails were still used well into the 20th century. all ww1 ships still had masts in case the boilers exploded or the engines gave up. steam tech is temperamental at best and most captains still preferred the wind, because at least it wouldn't explode your ship if you make a mistake.

>>63862192
>steam tech is temperamental at best
You know how nuclear reactors work right?

>>63862192
>all ww1 ships still had masts in case the boilers exploded or the engines gave up
anon, I...

>>63862209
Warspite is still out there. Get enough of her in one place and she'll be off on another killing spree.

>>63858797
>do you know what happens to ships after they burn?
They fall apart and the wood floats
Wooden ships are really REALLY hard to sink

>>63857036 (OP)
19th century captain would commit perfidy in order to sneak next to the frigate adhering to modern rules of engagement. Frigate eats a full broadside. skill issue.

>>63857641
age of sail cannons will unironically make it into crew spaces of modern warships. i'd expect power to go down and electrical fires to start up. if magazines are hit, there can be flash ignition from hot metal.

>>63859262
True, even with an ideal setup the Frigate has the edge.

>>63862250
Yeah, no doubt the cannons will punch some holes, there will be casualties, but the chance of some random lucky shot taking out the frigate via a magazine explosion or someshit is one in a bazillion. Meanwhile the first rate has a very very limited lifespan, being essentially a floating tinderbox that can be set alight by almost every weapon aboard the frigate.

>>63862250
How thick are the hulls of modern frigates? Penetration with round ball into metal is depressingly low for a given caliber.

>>63862238
It'd have to catch up first, the HMS Victory (from the OP) had a top speed of 11 knots, depending on the wind, while the Type 23 can go over double that.
The frigate would run circles around it.

>>63863691
A DDG's hull is measured in millimeters of steel, maybe 7-15mm. not thick at all, apparently in an Arleigh Burke there is about 130 tons of actual armor, which is a mix of steel and kevlar and classified shit. I have no idea if a point blank shot from a cannon could pen steel of any thickness. Cannons they had issues breaking thick oak of the USS Constitution famously.

>>63863691
equivalent to no more than an inch of tank RHAe

>>63863812
>in an Arleigh Burke there is about 130 tons of actual armor
mainly around the engines, magazine and VLS only
not sure about the fuel tanks
>I have no idea if a point blank shot from a cannon could pen steel of any thickness
unbacked steel, quite probable
but even if they penetrate, a dozen hot cannonballs rolling around won't do much. it's high explosive filler that does the damage
>Cannons they had issues breaking thick oak of the USS Constitution famously
propaganda exaggeration
ship of the line cannons could easily punch holes through the sides of other ships of the line. Constitution was struck by lower-calibre frigate cannons. Higher calibre guns had no problem punching through her sister-ship, President.

>>63862250
The actual CIC room on a modern warship is armored. I don't know how thick it is, it's meant to stop splinters from a nearby explosion not a direct ASM hit. But even a nominal level of armor would probably bounce a cannonball no problem.

>>63860080
Modern vessels are underrated in how boarding resistant they are; I think the marines have an exercise where they simulate attempting to board a hostile naval vessel, and every time the navy has the overwhelming advantage in defense.

>>63864254
On destroyers perhaps, but frigates as a whole range from 6mm thick RHA hulls to "can barely support its own weight."
Maybe on a US frigate, they'd have a properly-protected citadel lined with kevlar and possibly composites but I wouldn't trust a Euro or Chinese frigate to be proofed against anything bigger than a .50 cal, and I wouldn't want to be next to the outer walls when it's getting shot by one.

>>63857036 (OP)
If the modern frigate is uncrewed maybe.

>>63859270
Battle of Midway.

>>63864392
>On destroyers perhaps, but frigates
>I wouldn't trust a Euro
modern warship terminology is all over the place, you can't assume that frigate = weaker
and no, frigates have broadly the same hull strength as destroyers, and armour also (i.e. virtually none)

>>63864254
>>63864017
Round ball penetration drops off rather dramatically outside of close range.

I know of little rigorous testing with cannons against armor, but IV8888 was able to badly bulge one 6mm armor plate and shatter another with a pound, pound and a half lead slug from a black powder gun. While his 37mm slug was longer than it was wide, it was also soft lead. A iron ball should have similar or superior penetration per caliber relative to armor, at extremely close range. Should is a dangerous word with ballistics, often things don't line up with simple models in practice.

>>63859794
Vulcano 76mm BER (the unguided one) has a range of 18 miles. The GLR version (the guided one) has a range of 24 miles.

>>63866641
oh anything out of musket shot is unlikely I think
the force that can throw a 6" ball out to 1 mile is likely to punch through 1" of unbacked high-hardness steel however, I think
completely speculative of course

>>63859270
I never noticed these dudes on the deck (or bridge or whatever the fuck it's called).
...how much hearing protection were they wearing?

>>63866865
not enough

>>63857107
>If it teleports/sneaks/spawns 400 yards away good chances.
No. You could spawn it inside 400yd and give it a free broadside before the modern frigate notices, and it would still be unable to sink the frigate and get torn to pieces before it had a chance to fire another one. A single .50 API through a powder magazine could sink Victory, let alone a hosedown from anti-boat weapons like .50s or CWIS. The main 5" or 3" gun would turn victory into a floating slick of splinters pretty quickly even IF by miracle or luck the magazines were totally unharmed.

>>63866865
The IJN Yamato's guns were so big the AA crew had to be indoors while the 18" guns fired. The USS Iowa's 16" rifles weren't quite as powerful but it was the same ballpark.

On the flip side, the Iowa-class had fully enclosed 5" DP turrets so it wasn't like having the AA crews indoors left the ship defenseless.

>>63866641
>Round ball penetration drops off rather dramatically outside of close range.

A cast iron cannonball will only ever penetrate half its caliber of wrought iron plate max

Sectional density and shit

>>63857036 (OP)
Outranged, outmaneuvered, and outgunned.
0.

>>63857087
You'd be surprised at how much punishment a modern frigate can take and remain operational, even with the thin armor compared to older ships.

>>63857087
I'm not sure who is more retarded, you or OP.

>>63857036 (OP)
>what are the chances for a first rate ship of the line to sink a modern frigate? no radars, gps or recon involved
Absolutely zero. The ship of the line would never even be able to accomplish anything useful, even in perfectly calm seas. Any modern frigate can go like, 30-40 knots, and in any direction at any time. A wind propelled ship is fundamentally obsolete even to hyper primitive steam vessels.

Weapon systems just make it more of a joke. Even with pure optical the frigate will have zero issues engaging with the ship from far far far beyond the range of its guns. And a bunch of 24 and 32 lb iron balls would do jack shit anyway. But again it wouldn't even matter. The frigate just keeps range and/or engages from the rear, ggez.

>>63857087
>modern frigates are made out of paper mache
Total fucking horseshit. Where you people pull this garbage from? There is no modern naval ship at all that doesn't have extensive compartmentalization and damage control. Yes, vs MODERN anti-ship weapons some are built tougher than others and some depend more on speed, active defense etc instead of pure armor/durability, but there isn't a single one that would die from small plain iron balls.

>>63869241
>A cast iron cannonball will only ever penetrate half its caliber of wrought iron plate max
And even that, if I recall, requires a powder load substantially above the historical averages.

If the figures other people gave are accurate it still might be possible to break the skin on a modern light warship with a broadside, even if that's all you accomplish. A first rate ship would probably have 24s and 32s with full length barrels, those are, what, 5 inches and change?

>>63857036 (OP)
Absolutely fucking zero. If the frigate can see the first rate, it can kill it. The first rate has to get into the naval equivalent of cumshot distance to scratch the paint of the frigate, and I'm not entirely sure the first rate could penetrate at point blank.

>>63869508
Yeah that's with civil war era rodman guns, info from an Endicott era manual

With the spanish-american war some old shit was still in use in backwaters like the dry tortugas

>>63869549
It could penetrate the hull at point blank range, a frigate's hull is going to be about 3/8 to 5/8" (10 to 16mm) thick steel depending exactly on where on the hull we're talking,. Some of the stuff higher up on the ship might be only 1/4 (6mm). It's not armored like a WWII fighting ship. But it's just an iron ball that won't explode, and it's not going to penetrate many bulkheads. The Frigate may not be armored but it is highly compartmentalized with watertight doors everywhere. You also have to think that if the first-rate is trying to hit the Frigate below the waterline then the cannonballs have to pass through some amount of water before impact, and they are also going to be striking an angled portion of the hull, all of which is greatly going to reduce their ability to penetrate. I think the cannons could shoot through the hull plating in a perfect "hit the broad side of a barn" sort of scenario, but I'm not sure they'd be capable of penetrating the hull of the frigate at a meaningful distance below the waterline.

>>63869508
If we use HMS Victory at the time of Trafalgar as an example of a First Rate, they had long-barreled 24's and 32's on the middle and lower decks respectively, measuring about 5.5 and 6.5 inches respectively.

>>63869581
>that's with civil war era rodman guns
Civil War era artillery have approximately twice the performance of Napoleonic

>>63870525
OK, too bad the OP only said "first-rate" so I can use USS Pennsylvania, or HMS Victoria

>>63871373
>OP only said "first-rate"
on that technicality, you can theoretically field picrel then
>so I can use USS Pennsylvania, or HMS Victoria
they would still be using Napoleonic artillery in any case, they were designed for it and wouldn't be able to carry the heavier, newer guns

>>63871549
Nigga no, HMS Victoria was designed for a lower gun deck of 8-inch shell-firing guns in 1855, two generations after the end of the Napoleonic era.

>>63871373
Nta but a 32 pounder should still probably get through a half inch at point blank range. Not going to accomplish much but it should at least get through the skin.

>>63860292
nikon shills at it again

>>63869395
nice 8 bit theater and do you have the "huge knockers" "scale 1 inch = 10 miles"

>>63857641

> Even a single .50 firing blue tips would absolutely wreck the first rate
You are saying a gun smaller than the smallest naval cannon of the era, a Robinet, could could single handedly devastate a ship of the line.

Obviously, it can't, didn't and couldn't. Let's not be silly.

>>63877717
NTA but a 50 cal can rip through 1.5 feet of cinderblock
2 feet of oak is nice but isn't going to stop it
an M2 Browning will rake the decks and kill everyone showing their heads in a porthole, making return fire nigh impossible
each penetration will produce splinters and even bullets which don't penetrate will produce spalling that will dice through the crew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBn233_zGHE

>>63878083
Ol' Ironsides had three layers of different wood, might have more trouble going through that

>>63878181
Ol' Ironsides was basically a cruiser built with battleship-thickness armour; ie aforesaid 2 feet of oak, the class did not have exceptional protection for a man-o-war, it had exceptional protection for a frigate