Thread 63858576

Well, we all know that the Russian military in the big 2025 is an embarrassment, even the shills seem to have got the memo by now and are focusing on damage control rather than hyping them up.

But was this inevitable? If Putin didn't begin a retarded full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, and instead worked his ass off trying to weed out the corruption and modernize, aiming to have an actually competent and threatening military by say, 2030, could he have done it? Or will they always be doomed?

Putin is the source of all the corruption, and if he decided he didn't want to be corrupt anymore and remove corruption he'd have fallen out a window.

>>63858576 (OP)
>trying to weed out the corruption and modernize
Picrel would be Putin by 2030

>>63858576 (OP)
Biggest issue would be buy in. There just isn't a way for one monke to change the whole culture of theft, even if he is at the top.

>>63858576 (OP)
All monke had to do was let this fat fuck work and do his thing. problem is he was actually competent and efficient and the generals really liked their pensions so he got sacked.

>>63858576 (OP)
>But was this inevitable?
yes

>>63858648
Competency scares the monke

>>63858576 (OP)
They tried.
The promoted someone to get in there, shake things up, reform the military, etc etc etc.
He instituted a plan of military reforms.
He rocked the boat too much. He fucked with oligarchs' abilities to insert their proboscis into the state through the means of military contracts and stuck out taxpayer funds; they complained, he got ejected.
The reforms were declared complete and the remaining half of them unnecessary.

They cannot reform the military without upsetting the oligarch's ability to plunder the state. Corruption is a load-bearing political pillar while also being the bar through the military's spokes.

When corruption is as rampant as it is in Russia the only thing you can do is burn it down and start over.

>>63858576 (OP)
>inevitable?
Yes. It’s a peasant military. Russian society is too low-IQ for it to be anything but a peasant military. To be a professional military you need a high-IQ society from which a strong officer corps can be built; without that forget about achieving anything more. It’s not a matter of Putin choosing to do something different, the raw materials didn’t exist to begin with — which is WHY the earlier professionalization effort crashed and burned.

Putin thought he could avoid opening with shock and awe like NATO in Serbia & Iraq carpet bombing cities to ruins and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.

He thought Ukraine would just surrender and hand him Donetsk and Luhansk. But he lost the gamble and NATO went all in rearming Ukraine with everything they had thus it turned into a cluster fuck WW1 type fighting.

>>63861141
It'd be pretty embarrassing if he couldn't cut through in one stroke.

Every once in a while I see people talking about the Russian convoy that didn't move for several days because someone sold the gas, but no one ever talks the blood that was stolen. I'm sure a bunch of soldiers died because someone sold the blood pouches.

>>63858576 (OP)
>and instead worked his ass off trying to weed out the corruption
Bruh... corruption is the foundation of the regime. Corruption is the glue that hold the system together. You can't have a non-corrupt regime and still somehow still up to a trillion dollars by being president for 25+ years.

>>63861168
Russia main problem isn't really the officer corp
(not that that's not a problem) they have literally no NCOs. Army's need Sergeants, they are the glue that holds everything together

>>63861218
What? The blood for transfusion?
I mean, if it was any other less stupid corrupt nation I can understand the logic.

>"I shall sell these to earn some extra money. And besides, it's not like we will REALLY invade or anything. Ka-ching!"

>>63861257
The NCOs are a part of the officer corps. NCOs are important but only if there is a professional, strong officer corps above them to interface with.

It's a shithole that boasts to be "the most resource-rich country in the world" and a dominant presence on Forbes' list while pensioners dig through trash for expired food.
You can't have Russia without corruption.
>but Cucker said
He's an absolute moron at best, actual shill at worst.

>>63861261
>What? The blood for transfusion?
yes

>>63861218
It's not like "blood was stolen" it's that it never existed in the first place. Pocket the money that was allocated to get blood, write in the log that blood was delivered, but there's no blood actually. Basically virtual blood exists at this point, so when they say "okay, ship out X amount of blood there" but you can't do that, because you don't have enough, you might have like 1/10 of X in reality kek.

>>63861261
>The blood for transfusion?

Yes. That's how America knew Russia was invading. It's one of the things you bring for an invasion.

>>63861284
American intel saw them transporting large amounts of blood before the invasion. That's how they knew Russia was invading.

>>63861388
Well yeah, during 2014-2022 russia build dozens of new bases on the border with Ukraine in preparations of the future war, with those bases including medical ones, storage and logistic ones and of course army ones with armor and personnel. But the general thing is that a lot was moved, but on paper it was probably 3-4x more than in reality. That's how corruption hollows out things in a soviet-tier system.

>>63861415
Eh... you're probably right.

>>63861276
Normal and effective reserve based armies that use conscription to train said reserves also have NCOs
>inb4 puzzia mandatory ass rape
Korea, finland, israel all have mandatory service

>>63861257
>Russia main problem isn't really the officer corp
Yes and no. The officers don't give a shit and despise the enlisted to such a degree that you wouldn't even be able to comprehend. But this honestly not surprising, since any societal institution in USSR was a micro-gulag, from kindergartens and schools, but the army being the most obvious example here.

>>63861472
your anti-soviet bias is showing
it's just a conscript military
it's functionally a subsidy of grunts; because someone else is paying for all these grunts, they're not worth shit, and are treated as such. You can put in a lot of effort to avoid this but that's what it will trend towards.
because it's a bunch of people who don't want to be there, they're actively abused and terrorized to be kept in line.

the same thing happens in south korea. The same thing happened in tsarist russia.

>>63861627
>your anti-soviet bias is showing
Reality has a certain anti-soviet bias, my brown friend. Also, what do you expect from me, my birth certificate literally has the hammer and sickle on it.

>>63858576 (OP)
Back in 22 military competence was a non issue because they weren't going to a war they were going for a regime change, the tank divisions cross the border, Zelensky will take the helicopter ride, most of the Ukrainian army will go turncoat or just surrender as the FSB promised.

Then after the new puppet is in place, just a handful of years of suppression of whoever was involved in Euromaidan and then a referendum to join the Russian Federation.

For this, the bare basic functioning Russian Armed Forces are good enough, is a waste to spend money on them to have them sitting on barracks fucking each other in the ass, no one is going to invade Russia and the countries on the Russian re acquisition list have even worse militaries than them, the current military as incompetent and wasteful, is also harmless, that's important for a totalitarian regime, more than competence, totalitarian countries only have competent militaries if they don't have another options, is a big risk for big boy in charge because sooner or later the Generals will start to get ideas.

>>63858576 (OP)
>Russian military competence

Doesn't matter since the strategic worldview isn't substantially altered from 'Soviet tImes'-- conventional forces exist to exploit and consolidate Strategic Weapons-- nukes and whatever. Their mediocrity on the ground in Ukraine is a matter of indifference when the ecnomic warfare reality and will to fight casualty counts are something that Europe cannot handle by themselves or with the USA-- that's the problem: Boomers embezzled the Cold War Peace Dividend and now it's everyone else coming after's problem.

>>63858576 (OP)
>Weed out the corruption

The state IS the corruption. It's not called a mafia state for nothing.

>>63858576 (OP)

It's a dictatorship. He will never be able to promote the best people, he will always be forced to promote loyalist and those are the dumbest people that have nothing else to offer. That is how he ends up promoting his cook to ran part of his army and even he turned on him in the end.

Dictatorships will always have shit corrupt armies, only capable of meat waves.

>>63858964
Lord in heaven there really is no way out for them is there

>>63861218
>>63861261
Lets be real, that blood probably had AIDs in it due to reduced Russian medical standards.

Even if they magically removed 100% of all corruption, they have the GDP of Italy
Could Italy invade Ukraine successfully?

>>63858576 (OP)
>Well, we all know that the Russian military in the big 2025 is an embarrassment,

says who?
currently no matter how you spin it both ukraine and russia are actively innovating on the fly

anyone who just thinks
>HAHA RUSSIA BAD
is just a fucking idiot

>>63862563
My shill in christ, we are 3 YEARS into what was touted as a 3 day coup de main where Russia due to their position as "the second strongest military in the world" and "superpower" expected to overpower their significantly weaker, poorer neighbour.

Russia have squandered their materiel and manpower to the degree that they have been unable to military dominate one of the poorest places in eastern europe.

So yes, Russia are a big fucking embarrassment to themselves. Nobody is under any illusion that they have the capability to hurt their neighbours, but nor is anyone under the illusion any more that their claims of being capable enough to match US conventional force of arms as equals hold any water. The curtain has dropped, and they have been proven once again as they were a hundred and fifty fucking years ago (>>63858964) that their cultural failings run deep enough that they must suffer repeated military humiliation to fulfil even the most modest objectives.

This will be a repeat of their inter-war losses against countries like Finland and Poland where they will eventually withdraw with their tails between their legs and the cycle will begin anew as they begin to "reconstitute" their military with "fresh" material and doctrine only to once again be humiliated the second they see action as happened in Barbarossa.

and once again no doubt the west will have to step in, as they did with lend lease and perestroika, to supply Russia with the finance and material to avoid a total collapse and the total capitulation of Siberian resources to China.

It never had to be this way, Russia could have restrategised and become a profitable partner at any point in the past 30 years. They just couldn't help themselves. The second they feel they have advantafe over anyone to their west they will attempt to mercilessly press it and subsequently lose their teeth for it.

>>63862563
>now that we lost most of our Soviet stocks, we are innovating and reaching tech the US had 30 years ago!

Here's something I don't get; and I want someone to illuminate me.
Why does Russia have so many military academies?
America has just a handful, with just one for the Army.

>>63858590
>15 different shot angles of rhe same thing over and over again with no splat
Jesus christ

>>63862235
>Could Italy invade Ukraine successfully?
With pizza and pasta? Easy

>>63862563
>says who?
Objective reality.

>>63861168
>>63861257
>>63861276
>>63861466
If they still had a soviet style society the ideal fix would be adopting the North Koreans NCO/Officer system but i don't see how they could do that in their current conditions. The military in Russia doesn't offer the incentives that theirs does so getting the NCO/Officer numbers via volunteers would not be possible without an incentive program that would collapse from corruption.

It would also require time that they don't have and the establishment of an entire reserve organization to sustain losses, if they committed to at least a generations worth of time it would be worthwhile but they wouldn't do that.

Dictatorship doesn't mean you have to have shitty NCOs and Officers, if they do it is a failure of national leadership capability. Vietnam, the DPRK and historically all do just fine.

>>63862781
>Vietnam, the DPRK and historically all do just fine.
*historically The PRC

>>63862683
grift centers for loyalists

>>63858576 (OP)
Corruption takes decades to drive out but you can drastically reduce it for a time by having loyal inspectors tell you the true state of affairs while giving bonuses to everyone on bases that minimize theft.
Pay the guys better for not stealing than what they make from stealing.

>>63858576 (OP)
Putin is the corruption. 130 billion now. He's lost 120 since the war started

>>63861384
The polish spotted it first. The Russian soldiers were trading gasoline for whores and drugs. It's why after the first month the 20-25% army started having withdrawals.
Then once we got a soldier we figured out all the letters and tasked satellites to them to find all the vehicles and kick the information to the Ukrainians. We still do it.
The giant Zs they paint on the sides of vehicles are enormously helpful for the automated systems to find
It's a not naturally occuring shape unlike the Ukrainians symbols.

Yes. Russians are this stupid. Billions on paint so we can use automated systems to find their vehicles easy.

>>63861168
It's not an IQ issue. A competent military is dangerous to the regime, so they are kept neutered and cucked by design. Usually this isn't a problem when the only thing your military has to do is fight countries 100x smaller or quell rebellions or just do war crimes. And this isn't even a putin regime thing, the military was castrated since early soviet times and modern russia just double down on this. Anyone competent is inherently dangerous to the regime, because competency works around loyalty. It's a common thing for most autocracies. But that's not the only thing.
Modern russia is a KGB mafia state all things considered. The KGB (FSB) is the elite, the "new aristocracy" and shit. At the same time they are also the enforcers and enablers of the regime itself. They wield the power and can do anything to anybody, outside people under specific protection from the autocrat.
The military is inherently by their position a counter-elite, the only real side who could potentially topple the current power structure and get power redistributed, because they also have force available to them. Thus it's paramount to keep military fucked just in case. Hence no popular commanders can exist, no competent professionals can exist for too long, because they start getting popular and so on.
You've seen an example of this with Wagner and Prigozhin. A parallel military was created by GRU (military intelligence), outside of regular MoD control, an effective and charismatic (compared to regular RU regime fucks) guy was put in place to manage it and boom - he became a popular leader and thus instantly became a danger for the regime, hence why he was disposed of.

>>63862922
>Yes. Russians are this stupid. Billions on paint so we can use automated systems to find their vehicles easy.

The fascinating thing about that is how stagnated in the Cold War their opsec is; every serious military on earth wouldn't make the 'Z' mistake. The whole purpose of modern camo schemes like the digital ones is to avoid exactly this issue. Even the Norks meticulously paint identical patterns on their TELs to avoid it, you can even see where they didn't get it quite right and had to do touch up to make them match.

The idea that Russia can't take such basic measures is a major sign of incompetence.

>>63863004
the Z thing wasn't a "mistake", but the old soviet playbook of:
- both sides use similar gear;
- we need to differentiate ourselves somehow, otherwise our army will destroy itself with friendly fire;
- add a simple visual market with paint right before the operation starts;
Similar stuff was done during the soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia for example.

>>63863020
By mistake i meant applying them in a non standard manner. Take whatever the resolution of your opponents satellites is, cut it in half and that is how precisely similar the markings need to be unless you want to just hand them your entire OOB and deployment scheme.

>>63862624
>My shill in christ, we are 3 YEARS into what was touted as a 3 day coup de main
https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-within-72-hours-if-russia-decides-to-invade-ukraine-sources

you ate the propaganda like its cereal and it shows
>Russia have squandered their materiel and manpower to the degree that they have been unable to military dominate one of the poorest places in eastern europe.
yeah it shows
i bet they run out of washing machines too
i mean its being 3 years already
> of being capable enough to match US conventional force of arms as equals hold any water.
remind us again how many countries are actively backing ukraine?
>where they will eventually withdraw with their tails between their legs and the cycle will begin anew as they begin to "reconstitute" their military with "fresh" material and doctrine only to once again be humiliated the second they see action as happened in Barbarossa

that would require an actual effort of winning the war of attrition AGAINST russia
can you tell us who is currently losing ground?

>It never had to be this way, Russia could have restrategised and become a profitable partner

its funny cause you havent followed the events and this is clear
since 2019 how many times PUTIN officially asked to have talks
and im saying 2019 for a reason
google it and tell me
>>63862667
>if usa had X now imagine what we gonna have in 20 years!!!111!!!

this is so tiring
>>63862761
and yet here we are they control most of the valuable land of ukraine
and they are about to reach sumy in a couple of weeks if they continue on this pace
but sure id imagine any other military would have done a better job on clearing villages and cities
right

>>63863243
>most of the valuable land
lol

>>63863243
>you ate the propaganda
The victory article getting auto-published by TASS on the third day is also propaganda, my brown friend?

>>63863243
>most of the valuable land
Do you define value by the amount of russians who rotted in the ground?

>>63863243
>about to reach sumy in a couple of weeks


TWO MORE WEEKS!

The memes write themselves, can you people be anymore cringe? Stop eating propaganda from a failed dictatorship, it isn't healthy.

>63863243
>and yet here we are they control most of the valuable land of ukraine
That being
>90% depopulated UXO contaminated farmland
>10% depopulated and ruined UXO contaminated townships
And a fertility rate that makes it clear you abort babies like its a national sport.

I see now why you keep importing Turkmen into what remains of Mariupol, not many other options.

>>63862781
Dprk was almost wiped off the map in the only serious war they have been. In a war they started unprovoked and Mao had to interfere to bail out their sorry asses.

Today a korean war would be one sided it would be Gulf War all over again

>>63862683
>>63862861
To quote Friedrich Engels:

>The non-commissioned officers, as we have said, are mostly recruited from the soldiers' sons, educated in government establishments. From early boyhood subject to military discipline, these lads have nothing whatever in common with the men whom they are, subsequently, to instruct and direct. They form a class separate from the people. They belong to the state—they cannot exist without it: once thrown upon their own resources, they are fit for nothing. To get on, then, under the government, is their only object. What the lower class of employés, recruited from the sons of employés, are in the Russian civil service, these men are in the army: a set of cunning, low-minded, narrowly-egotistical subordinates, endowed with a smattering of elementary education, which almost renders them more despicable; ambitious from vanity and love of gain; sold, life and soul, to the state, and yet trying, daily and hourly, to sell the state, in detail, whenever they can make a profit by it. A fine specimen of this class is the feldjäger or courier who accompanied M. de Custine during his travels in Russia, and who is admirably portrayed in that gentleman's account of Russia. It is this class of men, both in the civil and military branches, which principally foments the immense corruption pervading all branches of the public service in that country. But as it is, there is no doubt that, if this system of total appropriation of the children, by the state, were done away with, Russia would not be able to find a sufficient number of civil subaltern employés and military non-commissioned officers.

>>63862804
Prc can't even handle vietnam or taiwan or zegroids up north. They are so scared of losing face they dont even test equipment or men in foreign wars

>>63862991
Then why the fuck can't they stay in their little reservation fucking each other in the ass and growing fat by stealing to their hearts content

>inb4 hur dur keep peasants distracted

The zegroid cattle is the most docile inbreds in the whole world. Only complete famine might make them do something but not much

>>63863342
Hence the 'historically' part; in the Korean war their NCOs were decent. Today, how knows?

>>63863328
None of which is relevant; the point was that you don't need to be a NATO member to have a functioning NCO system.

>>63863291
Ironic

>>63858576 (OP)
the reason the invasion happened is because putin is dying and he wants to 'fix his mistake for letting the lands separate'

>>63863368
>Then why the fuck can't they stay in their little reservation
The goal is to:
- prevent ukies from doing euro-integration, because afterwards the door for their annexation will be forever closed, russians are still ass blasted that latvia, lithuania and estonia managed to sneak into NATO years ago;
- prevent ukies from overtaking russia in socio-economic development too much (a typical ukie already lived better than a typical russian before 2022), because that would be bad optics for the regime, highlighting that life could be better;
- create an example for domestic audience that change of power is bad, and popular protest which results in change of power is even worse, so that the locals don't even start thinking about doing their own clankening (they wouldn't do it either way, because they are cucked culturally, but the regime fears this either way). This is also one of the reasons why Armenia was thrown to the wolfs in 2020 btw, to discredit the government which came to power from popular protests before the local population;
- but first and foremost the idea is to rebuild the empire, simple as, ukies are just the most important part of the puzzle for them;

>>63863243
>you ate the propaganda

>>63858576 (OP)
>even the shills
yeah we see you do

>>63861627
>your anti-soviet bias is showing
>>63861718
>Reality has a certain anti-soviet bias
>>63862991
>the military was castrated since early soviet times and modern russia just double down on this
Anons like to argue that these ways of doing things owe to Soviet times and communism. (Part of this is political because this is /k/ which doesn't like communism). But I'm not convinced of that, as a lot of accounts of Russia in the 19th century describe a similar system. But it's also true of the Soviet system. I think the communists recreated a rather traditionally Russian way of doing things once they stabilized the communist regime. Or Stalin did. In order to stabilize it and "run" it, they fell back on traditional patterns. Putin's system has done something similar to that, when there was an attempt to do something different in the 1990s and it didn't work. It's like "we don't do that kind of thing around here."

>>63862991
>Modern russia is a KGB mafia state all things considered. The KGB (FSB) is the elite, the "new aristocracy" and shit.
There's a book called "The New Class" in the 1950s, written by a Yugoslav partisan leader and a Marxist who became P.M. of communist Yugoslavia, but turned against it and went to prison. He also met Stalin on numerous occasions and wrote a book about his conversations with him. "The New Class" was about the same stuff. It was about how the party elite and industrial managers (who were party members) became a new ruling class. But the ideology was that it was a classless society yet here's this new ruling class and explaining how that operated. It's like more complex Orwell, who had some insight but was never a high-ranking member of the communist elite. It's pretty interesting, you can find free .pdfs of it with a quick search.

>>63861627
>the same thing happens in south korea. The same thing happened in tsarist russia.

One is a nation that relies on a outside superpower to support it and came to the brink of destruction even with that help, the other one no longer exists.

>>63858576 (OP)

>>63861039
>he got ejected.
The reforms were declared complete and the remaining half of them unnecessary.

But this isn't what occured at all :
Firstly the 2008 and post 2008 Russian military reform, made by putin and co, were bad and the russian army go from a middle fighting force to an police actions force, while it's swindle.

Notably, General Nikolaï Makarov, that the moron putin put as cos to do the reform, actually shadow denounced this and si was removed, and it was the fucking same for the head of the rusisan ground force and his chief or staff; a bloodbath, and the effect was seen as early as the Donbass war, and ironically putin actually didn't the army as a police force when yanu fall. Furthermore putin slew the DNR and LNR, who were the most capable and offensive...
Furthermore in Syria putin chosed as strategy of ceasefire, bus, removing sarin gas and as well as good and offensive syrian general, like zahrredine, the head of the syrian intelligence, and Putin also order assad to slew the syrian mod, vice mod as well as cos who were also the ones who would never do the bus and ceasefire bullshit.

Finally, Russian should, logically, concentrated all of his attacks on the weak and disgusting turkish regime, who constantly is begging the West to not scramble and that russia can easily beat, and certainly not against the powerful West, but Putin's idiocy...

So tonconclud, putin and co are idiot and an moron who blatantly weekend the russian armed forced that rival, at best, the fucking 1917 revolutions.

>>63863402
>euro-integration

But there were never any, and still isn't, any plan for Ukraine to be in the EU or co; and yanu, the lackey of putin, run on a fucking ukraine-EU trade while still being an eastern country, but then putin suddently force him to renegade while promising troops in case of trouble...

>>63863493
>and still isn't, any plan for Ukraine to be in the EU
Are you retarded? There is literally a road map and ukies are following it with regular check ups with the European Comission

>>63862781
>Vietnam

No, the NVA was severly beaten by the US (khe sahn, etc...)

>>63863505
>Are you retarded? There is literally a road map and ukies are following it with regular check ups with the European Comission

Check yourself, dude; there were NEVER any roadmap for an EU, only for trade deal and clear and legal mechanisms against corruption, in order to fucking make ukraine and the EU weathier.


Furthermore, putin's lackey, yanu, clearly and doubtlessly run on this.

>>63863469
>But this isn't what occured at all :
He's talking about reforms of Serdyukov who was the minister from 2007 to 2012. He wasn't a typical government official nor a man from the army, but a middle of the road businessman who dealt with furniture and shit.
He got a position via personal connections, but he was orders of magnitude more competent than any typical regime bureaucrat, so he started reforms which made sense and had results. Unlike prior reforms (during mid 90s, during early 2000s and so on), all of which sounded good, but failed to bring tangible results because any results just dissolved in the corrupt mass of the system.
However in the process of doing these reforms he stepped on the toes of too many people. They often weren't conventional oligarchs per se, but just other high position people in the system, such as higher ups within the army system, such as higher up from russian MIC and so on.
He was hated to much by everyone involved that they've actually had the balls to oust him by leaking tame basic bitch corrupt stuff against him tied to the head of the property department of the MoD, who was also his mistress (a common thing in the soviet system where you fuck your underlings). They didn't date touch the guy himself, but he had to leave the position.

>>63863516
Once again, used as an example of a nation that has functioning NCOs compared to Russia nothing else.

>>63861762
>consolidate Strategic Weapons-- nuke

Kursk was hit, despite the nuke, so his strategic weapons show to be mainly for show.

Lol, even moron like stalin would be laughing at Putin right now.

>>63863407
it's funny how propaganda changed from 3 day operation to "we didn't want it anyway" and ziggers and zigger lovers are like "totally"

>>63863546
>>63863538
>>63863516
>>63863493
You have no idea how the posting system works here do you?

>>63863545
>Once again, used as an example of a nation that has functioning NCOs compared to Russia nothing else

No, the NVA weren't functioning, dude : nv copied the russian army.

>>63863538
Bruh, the goal was always to join EU, european integration was literally a goal since early 90s. First agreements were like in mid 90s. By 2008 association agreements were being worked on, but they got fucked a bit because of Yanukovich playing autocrat and jailing opposition illegally.

>>63863551
But i know something better that you voluntary don't; the NVA and the VC were shitty and got beaten by the US...and it because the US is powerful while the NVA was an russian-like military...

You are seething.

>>63863559
>Bruh, the goal was always to join EU, european integration was literally a goal since early 90s.

No proofs, your headcanon.
>but they got fucked a bit because of Yanukovich playing autocrat and jailing opposition illegally.

Not quite; the EU looked at this, but this was all. putin forcing yanu, despite not doing so before, to suddently break it started the euromaidan.

Furthermore, during the first maidan, putin did the cheating but also didn't deployed troops...

>>63863493
>But there were never any, and still isn't, any plan for Ukraine to be in the EU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Ukraine_to_the_European_Union

>>63861261
>>63861284
It's both, and more. Russia's corruption is so endemic that it is not as simple as "corrupt officer embezzles funds", or "poor conscript sells military gear", it's all the way from the top down.
>Budget for blood made by King Monke, or one of his bean counters
>Monke skims off the top, naturally. He's the tsar, after all.
>Superiors who made the budget skimmed off the top
>Contractors who set up the blood drive skimmed off the top
>Doctors who worked at the blood drive skimmed off the top
>Officers who were to distribute the blood skimmed off the top
>Medics who inventory the blood skim off the top
>Grunts who stock the blood into warehouses skim off the top
>Suddenly, the blood is actually needed!
>It is in the interest of every single person in the chain of command to lie about what happened to the blood
>Grunt tells Medic "Uhh there's no blood... I don't know what happened to it, honest"
>Medic tells Officer "Conscript reports a lot of blood is missing, but we should be able to make do"
>Officer tells Doctors "We need more blood, some is missing but the situation is under control."
>Doctor tells Contractor "a little bit of blood has gone missing, it's not a big deal but you may need to organize another blood drive"
>Contractors tell Superiors "We could use a little bit more blood, a tiny amount has gone missing. Perhaps we should hold another blood drive.
>Superiors tell Monke "The blood situation is fantastic, great, tremendous. But... Maybe we should stockpile some more just in case?"
>Repeat from step 1
This can be applied to literally any military consumable from gasoline to shoes for soldiers.

>>63863577
>Not quite
Stop bringing in your make belief la-la-land lore into the discussion, faggot.

>>63863564
>ESL
>Thinks the USA won in Vietnam
>Starts sentences in name field
>Randomly replies to unrelated posts

Your paid /pol/ shill status is blatantly obvious.

>Not quite; the EU looked at this, but this was all. putin forcing yanu, despite not doing so before, to suddently break it started the euromaidan

Can't you even bother to use google translate? You are nearly unintelligible.

>>63862781
This is all irrelevant. To have a good NCO system there first needs to be a strong officer corps to which NCOs integrate with and translate doctrine to the battlefield from. There is a belief in here that NCOs are like battle daddies who make the conscripts good soldiers. In reality what makes good soldiers is the entire system above and around them focused on producing good soldiers, integrating good soldiers into larger formations moving in unison — a machinery in which the NCO is a cog. The machinery itself is developed, maintained, upgraded and managed by the OFFICER CORPS. Quality officers must be recruited from a population of 120-IQs — thousands, tens of thousands. Period. Just as low-IQs can’t succeed in engineering roles for example, they can’t be made into useful officers who need to operate this complex machinery. If you don’t have a strong officer corps you CANNOT have a strong military.

>>63863752
>a machinery in which the NCO is a cog
more like a belt drive, but yeah

>>63863782
>How about I drive a belt across your ass until you get back to work, private!
Checks out.

>>63863412
I can only imagine how socialism would be different if it had metastasized in Germany or France instead of Russia. Imagine a world where the legacy of communism wasn't planted by the most incompetent and corrupt people on Earth. It makes me wonder what the world would look like.

>>63863843
Look up the full name of the nazi party sometime

>>63863752
Your answer proves you have no idea how the system you are talking about function. The systems mentioned (The DPRK in particular) do exactly what you mentioned but better.

>>63863393
He said "failed" though

>>63863872
NK does not run a combat organization.

>>63863879
So you don't know how their Officer program works, correct?

>>63863412
Soviet Union head its sort of separation of powers: the army defending the state from external enemies, the secret police defending it from internal ones (real or perceived), and the party dictating the line. Each was jealous of its power and allied with the third one when the other was getting stringer. In a way it worked. When Putin, that was already head of the secret police became also the party leader, the army went from a potential ally to the main threat and had to be sidelined. Oligarchs never held power (they were starting to get it via control of the media but were nipped in the bud).

It is interesting to note that for most combat going on in Ukraine the US wouldn't strictly need officers: American Senior NCOs are perfectly capable of running Company or even Battalion level operations without Officers, on a Company level they may actually operate better without them.

>>63863901
No, it it’s not meaningful because it’s not in a combat organization so "officers" may just as well mean "regime upper-class family member" or "rare middle-class job opportunity for the political class". If NK ran a combat organization we may be able to discuss their officer corps.

>>63863915
This is a pretend narrative. In reality the KGB controlled the hard currency bank accounts and so became central partners between an alliance of all elite parts of Soviet society to steal the oil money and get rid of the Soviets to get away with it and to enjoy their wealth in Europe. Read the book "Putin’s Kleptocracy" for a reality-based, scholarly view of the topic by an actual professor of Russian studies.

>>63863986
So you have absolutely no idea and are avoiding showing your ignorance because you are too proud to ask, got it. Your assessment is completely backwards btw, the entire system is set up to avoid that sort of weakness.

Question, if they aren't a combat organization then who are those Asian guys fighting in Ukraine whose skill, discipline and training is being praised by both sides? Asking for a friend.

>>63863986
Norks don't become Officers by being politically reliable members of the middle class, you join the middle class by being a Officer.

>>63863843
It was still ubershit and retarded, as proven by non-russian socialist regimes all across the world, including in Europe.

>>63862683
There's number of reasons. First is purely organizational - in addition to some regional zoning, Soviets split their academies by the branches of military, thinking if you have specialized rocket academy, the overall quality of the officer staff will be higher.
Second is somewhat related to >>63863340. Military is still very dynastic in Russia. Same as FSB, same as oil industry, the medicine, even the fucking science. I wouldn't say kids are getting some kind of military upbringing here, despite "Suvorov's Academies" still being a thing, but that still shows. Of course, officers are interested in landing their offspring to some safe and comfortable position, so as a result, officer staff is overbloated with rear bureaucracy working in offices. Also, as already mentioned here, there's no NCOs in Russia.

There's another fun thing you may want to know. There's a "military department" in every notable university ("department" as in "academical department" in college/university). In theory, it should've provide capable
civilian specialists with a means to become reserve officers, getting a military specialization synergistic with their civilian profession, but here's the trick. As the army is conscript-based, anyone should "serve" here for 2 years, either before the college, or after it. But if you get an officer specialization from university's military department - bang, you are already a reservist 2nd lieutenant, no need to stomp kirzachi and suck dick in the barracks for two years.
This system mutated slightly. Back in Soviet times, around mid 1970s, I think, it was so encouraged that everyone and their cat was getting military education that way, even some girls (medics, some scientific professions like chemists, etc). In modern Russia it became possible to buy some medical diagnosis to become unsuitable for conscription, so this was more effortless route to take, but you won't be suitable to become an official of some meaningful kind if you do it

>>63858576 (OP)
>Or will they always be doomed?
Heartwearming seeing Westernoids finally pondering whether Russia is a product of Putin or Putin is a product of Russia. Nature is healing.

>>63863878
Fair

Alright, might as well spell it out. How do you become an Officer in the DPRK?

Assuming your Songbun isn't in the communal village outhouse you volunteer to join the Glorious Choson Inmin-gun of course! Note the volunteer part.

You go through the same sorts of testing, education and training you would expect to see in a western nation, complete with a collage decree program. The difference is simple but very important: A full tour of duty as an enlisted soldier is a requirement, this means almost all Officer Candidates are former NCOs.

One of the results is a much greater amount of experience and maturity in the junior officers: A 1st Lt equivalent will be in his early 30s and most likely be a former platoon Sgt.

There are flaws, most notably in the extreme length of time it takes to make a junior officer. Getting replacements on short notice is impossible. The system would not work in almost any other nation, however they get around this huge flaw in three ways:

1: Any major conflict would be do or die so even conventional Officer creation methods would not work.
2: Their military reserve is entirely composed of retired Officers, NCOs and technical specialists whose sole function is to provide replacements in wartime ands act as support cadres for the WPK Guard.
3: Who else to they have to mobilize? The society is so militarized and regimented that everyone who could do the job already is in some capacity.

After your (minimum 12 year voluntary) term of service you can move on, yay you. You get a nice apartment, easy party membership and more opportunities for yourself and your family, you are now Middle Class.

>>63864100
>>63863878
Don't forget the 'dictatorship' part, a failed dictatorship and a successful Monarchy are two very different things.

>>63864095
Did Lenin massmurder any people?

>>63864003
Thanks, will do. I am curious, how come FSB controlled the hard currency accounts?

>>63864132
Oh boy have you been living under a comfy rock. Compared to Lenin, Stalin is a boy scout. Read up on what Lenin said and wrote. He was the primary guy pushing for mass terror and mass killings. The only reason why Stalin is known more is because Lenin croaked pretty fast.

>>63863665
The US did win, on a tactical level in Vietnam. They just failed to create a real puppet government. Same story as Afghanistan.

>>63864138
>>63864003
Curious myself, how do they deal with people who hoard foreign currency, gold and crypto?

>>63864147
>>63864132
Lenin is proof that you don't need WMDs to destroy a people, if the Kaiser had put a Czar Bomb on that train instead of Lenin it would have done less damage.

>>63864132
>Did Lenin massmurder any people?
American education everyone lol lmaos

>>63864170
That is correct, however it ignores the fact that ultimately it was the people of the south who failed capitalism just like it was the people of Afghanistan who failed democracy. The North was stronger, if the people of the south had more will to victory than the North they would have won. They all the weapons and support they needed, they simply lacked to will to use them. They did not have that will and as a society rejected the USA in favor of the North just like the Afghan people did when it came to democracy. If not then they would have actually fought, they did not.

Both were wars of ideology and in both cases the USA lost. They are both prime examples of ideas as weapons and we were under equipped in both conflicts.

>>63864132
lenin was a jew and stalin wasn't duh

>>63864261
That's why each person Lenin killed was 6,000,000 times worse than Stalin.

>>63864132
holy lmao

>>63864138
>>63864171
It was a Soviet practice. According to the book, the hard currency accounts were managed by the KGB in order to fund foreign operations as Soviet money was not useful outside of the USSR. The Politburo could decide on how to use it and the KGB was charged with taking care of the accounts. These were foreign bank accounts which held foreign currency from the oil trade; the KGB were supposed to keep them safe but ended up being key players in robbing them instead. It was literally this and nothing else which put tge FSB and Putin in the position they are in today.

>>63864028
Those people are labor on loan from NK, not NK soldiers. How do I know this. COMPLETELY equipped with Russian gear and uniforms, not a single one with paperwork which identifies their NK military unit and rank. There are some artillery units there but we have no idea of who they are or if they are the same deal as the "soldiers" or not. If NK operated a combat organization I would expect them to show up in NK units with NK gear with NK military IDs, NK order of battle, NK doctrine, run by NK officers in NK (or joint) command centers, etc. Not labor rentals equipped entirely with Russian gear taking orders from the Russian chain of command. At first I thought the "trooos" narrative was a lie but since then I’ve come around to the more rational explanation that they’re troops but from a non-combat organization. Where has the NK army deployed? Actual training exercises (not PLA-style propaganda stunts), any joint training to compare them? No, there’s nothing, because like the PLA they’re not an actual combat organization — although I’d think the PLA would at least show up as a unit of the PLA.

So the point remains. What good are officers in a non-combat organization? Classes full of patriotic poetry writing? It’s just a pointless larp.

>>63864119
You absolutely DO NOT get the same education as you would in the West. Well, maybe Germany or Norway, but it’s absurd to even suggest anyone in that intensely poor shithole would get anything remotely the level as one would get in the U.S. It’s absurd on its face.

>>63865006
You haven't read or understood a single thing i've written. You are jumping to conclusions that are not fact based, including whose side i am on.

The fact that the DPRK does not fight like normal nations is obvious, but they do fight as has been proven in Ukraine.

>>63865017
The Officers of the DPRK get the full amount of education that the Officers of any other nation would get on top of their NCO school and their WPK Guard education. The biggest flaw is replacement rates, it takes a generation to make a crop of 30+ yo Lts.

>Well, maybe Germany or Norway
Sweden would be the nation you are looking for, Sung based it on theirs.

> intensely poor shithole

You should read news about the DPRK that happened in the last 20-30 years, they are doing fine.

They even have to do public service announcements in Pyongyang to keep young people from walking into traffic while reading their phones.

>>63865035
>You should read news about the DPRK that happened in the last 20-30 years, they are doing fine.
lmfao.

>>63865065
Yes, you should read the news about a nation that produces more ammunition than either Russia or NATO, especially as they are undergoing a economic boom and a resurgence in global power.

It would be highly useful to have news and intelligence about them that wasn't several decades old, anyone who wasn't a complete retard would do that.

Apparently you haven't.

>>63863843
>I can only imagine how socialism would be different if it had metastasized in Germany or France instead of Russia.
In a way, it did, but diverged and produced reformist social-democratic parties. That's basically what it turned into in Western Europe. This goes back to Eduard Bernstein. In the U.S. today it's really Bernie/AOC and that's what it is. The fringe groups who call themselves Leninists are politically irrelevant.

My take on why it metastasized in Russia, and why it took the form it did there, was because of particular reasons in Russia. The system collapsed and there were many different revolutionary parties, and revolutionary movements had existed there for decades before Marxism arrived on the scene. This is because Russia was very backwards, and the Bolsheviks won because they were the most go-go industrial party. The revolution was also anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist (read: anti-western) because a lot of industry they had did have was under the control of foreign owners. The petroleum industry was basically owned by Brits. The Russian capitalists were like middlemen and fairly weak as a group, so the revolution targeted them as well. The Bolsheviks slid down the path of least resistance really.

The Bolsheviks were also very militarized. This was an empire that had zero tradition of democratic politics. Never ever. They achieved none of their goals except industrialization, and the reality of their rule was the opposite in many ways of what they said socialism was going to be. You can give them credit for the industry, but they came to find themselves in an unusual predicament as Marxists for whom "historical necessity" had rendered their services obsolete by the 1970s or so.

>>63864965
>It was literally this and nothing else which put tge FSB and Putin in the position they are in today.
That's interesting. It was like a deep state / black market takeover that grew up like an alien-baby embryo inside the Soviet system.

>>63865128
>produces more ammunition
>in peacetime
Ah yes what a peaceful regime

>>63863469
what's your first language my dude

>>63863843
Or to put it another way, you basically had a split in the socialist movement in the 20th century. There was the Leninist version (who became identified as the communists, and yeah, sure) and the socialists (who became social-democrats). Both had their origins in 19th century socialism which included Karl Marx, but these were both 20th century mutations or developments of those ideas. There was a really strong push by the communists in the 20th century to impose themselves as a hegemon on those ideas. Obviously, there were strong points of contact with those ideas since that's where they came from, but I think it's useful to look at them as a distinctly 20th century phenomenon or product of this split, and there are arguments that they departed from those ideas in some ways. The total-war command economy they ran for example was influenced by World War I as much as Karl Marx, but Marx wasn't an economic planner.

This split also occurred as a result of the revolution. Lenin's model of running a political party with a Leninist party structure that imposes rigid discipline on the members was something they came up with. To be a member of the Comintern, your party had to also be like them. They were like a car with four wheels all moving in the same direction with a single driver at the wheel. There were socialist parties that applied for membership in the Comintern and were rejected because they weren't Leninists. (I think this was probably a mistake on their part.) If you watch the movie Reds, there's a scene where John Reed (an American socialist journalist who wrote one of the first books about the revolution in English because he took part in it) leads a split in the Socialist Party, which was a third-party in the U.S. at the time, to form a Bolshevik-style organization. Then a representative of the Russian embassy shows up to plug them in like he's Boris from Rocky & Bullwinkle.

>>63858648
And he couldn't keep it in his pants and pissed off his powerful father-in-law.

>>63864047
Those were all poisoned by Russians being the one to lay the groundwork. You cannot divorce even the most "no, no, we're not communist we swear!" ideologies from Russia's effect on Marxism. A world in which Russians didn't get the book club disbanded because they shit in the dean's sink does not exist. That's what I'm curious about.

>>63865228
One of the reasons that the DPRK has managed to keep peace in Asia and the entire world for so long is that for over half a century they have been producing more weapons than anyone thought imaginable for them.

It turns out that if you have atomic weapons and the ability to make more ammunition than the USA, NATO, the EU and Russia that no one wants to fight you.

The Norks have the shells, take the L.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUf3tqT4IDY&list=RDqUf3tqT4IDY&start_radio=1

>>63865341
one way they keep peace is because they have china protecting them you fucking dumb faggot hahaha

>>63865477
It amazes me that in 2025 there are still retards who don't understand that the DPRKs primary foe is the PRC. The DPRK hasn't had to deter Russia or the USA for several decades, their nuclear weapons are not aimed at Washington or Moscow, they are aimed at Beijing.

They don't need China to protect them, China is the ones who need defense!

>>63865302
Just because some other country would have less ass rape and vodka doesn't mean that much else would change. The desire to micromanage things, waste resources via inefficient managements and shove the boot even more up to people's asses is universal for any sort of leftie regime.

>>63865477
If i was China i'd be very bothered by how badly the DPRK could thrash the shit out of the PRC in a conventional war.

>>63858590
this....this is a parody, right?

>>63862991
>>63863412
This>>63863915
>Soviet Union head its sort of separation of powers: the army defending the state from external enemies, the secret police defending it from internal ones (real or perceived), and the party dictating the line. Each was jealous of its power and allied with the third one when the other was getting stringer.
The red army might have been purged several times but was without a doubt the most powerful faction of the three (to the point that the soviet union was called an army with a state not otherwise around) and required both the party and kgb to be held in check
One can only imagine how broken the army must be now to be so easily controlled by Putin's circle
>Ynr that russian general that wanted to reform the army with a modern nco corps only to instantly get thrown in jail on corruption charges
Did he take bribes? Most likely, but that they imprisoned him for it means that his reform plans encountered way bigger resistance than he expected

>>63865656
>The DPRK hasn't had to deter Russia or the USA for several decades
>>63865341
>One of the reasons that the DPRK has managed to keep peace in Asia and the entire world