>Asianist Kenneth Chase argues that gun development stagnated during the Ming dynasty due to the type of enemy faced by the Chinese: horse nomads. Chase argues that guns were not particularly useful against these opponents.[38] Guns were supposedly problematic to deploy against nomads because of their size and slow speed, drawing out supply chains, and creating logistical challenges. Theoretically, the more mobile nomads took the initiative in sallying, retreating, and engaging at will. Chinese armies therefore relied less heavily on guns in warfare than Europeans, who fought large infantry battles and sieges which favored guns, or so Chase argues
Thoughts? Pic is a Ming dynasty matchlock, possibly copied from the Wokou raiders who themselves copied from the Portuguese. Why can't mass volleys be used against steppe nomads? Doesnt make much sense to me why you cant both carry a spear and a gun. Didn't Napoleonic era warfare involve cavalry charges too?

>>63942848 (OP)
It stagnated because it was a copy, and the craftmen copying it lacked all the adjacent stuff to develop it further. Jap took the Portuguese one, did the amelioration they could and then stagnated too.

Where on the long front do you plan to concentrate your musketeers?

>>63942848 (OP)
The russians did just fine conquering the steppes with guns.

>>63942848 (OP)
>Thoughts?
Wikipedia is academically scattershot and haphazard in coverage, not to mention left-biased

>>63942848 (OP)
Sounds like a bowl of fried rice cope

>>63942848 (OP)
It was unironically lactose intolerance.
Prior to the discovery of bat shit caves, the potassium nitrate required for gunpowder was obtained from shit farms, where shit and various putrescent plant matter is regularly irrigated with piss, in order to eventually cause nitrate salts to precipitate ("flower out") from the admixture.
As it turns out, human shit and piss isn't a very good material, nor is it generated in quantities large enough to maintain a steady supply of flower of nitre.
As such, the most productive shit farms used dung and piss sourced from dairy farms. As most Europeans are lactose tolerant, dairy farms were commonplace in many parts of Europe. This wasn't the case with most of Asia, hence the relative scarcity and novelty of firearms.
There was one notable exception, namely India. Due to a relatively large percentage of Indians being lactose tolerant, dairy farms were a thing (so were shit farms), and gunpowder was used more widely. Europeans first encountered heavy rocket artillery (as opposed to old-fashioned rocket-propelled javelins) when they got on the receiving end of Mysorean rockets.

>>63943147
>POWERFUL poo-in-da-loo

>>63943147
The brits also imported tons of saltpeter from india.

>>63943050
both the russians and poles relied extensively on the same kind of bow-and-lance armed all-rounder cavalry units to fight steppe enemies until the late 1600s. the steppeniggers stopped being a serious threat well before that, and both nations adopted western-style flintlock infantry formations - yet retained large light cavalry forces for dealing with the odd steppe threat

>>63943001
Japan literally banned them

>>63943147
>It was unironically lactose intolerance.
You have not been anywhere near China, which is how you came up with this silly armchair theory.

Chinese "lactose intolerance" isn't deadly or even greatly discomforting; for most people it just means they get somewhat looser stools after consuming dairy, and chinese don't think that's an issue
if you go north of Shanghai you will actually find traditional Chinese yoghurt and curds, because that's wheat and cattle country. go even further north and even wheat doesn't do as well as maize
south of Shanghai is rice country

>This wasn't the case with most of Asia
mainly because most of China is farther south than Europe. even Sicily is 37 N; Xi'an is 34 N, Nanking 32 N, Shanghai 31 N. Shanghai is on a latitude with fucking Cairo
Cows don't thrive in this weather, they're scrawny and produce significantly less milk, so cultures around these parts tend to eat more chicken, fish, and pork.

personally, I think it's more likely that Asian lactose intolerance is driven by lack of dairy in diet, rather than the other way around.

>>63943977
implessive

> guns were not particularly useful…

Stopped reading there. everyone knows guns are the most useful thing ever. A gun can be used to feed you, to obtain property (armed robbery) and can even keep you warm at night (kidnapping girls at gunpoint)

>>63942848 (OP)
>Why can't mass volleys be used against steppe nomads?
Because he is retard.
When Russians got their hands on arquebuse in 16th century and cannons they started slowly but surely strategic offense on Nomads conquering their lands one piece at a time. Arquebuse was crucial part of that offensive making Russian army very resilient in head on battle vs nomads.

>>63942848 (OP)
>Why can't mass volleys be used against steppe nomads?
Because steppe nomads, as a rule, will not engage your army in pitched battles. They'll just, you know, ride somewhere else.

>>63943893
Russians used hammer and anvil tactics in field. Their military was hybrid. Cavalry was feudal horse archers nomads style, but infantry was arquebusers corps centrally hired and supplied by King (Tsar). (Very similar to Ottoman Empire with its Mamelukes and jannisars).
Both parts was crucial: arquebusier infantry created resilience in head on battle and horse archers had necessary speed to chase Nomads (but if they run into superior Nomads forces they could fall back to Russian camp protectted by guns).
Also big part of Russian strategy was bit and hold using fortifications. They quickly constructed forts and cities along rivers and Nomads can't do anything about them can't assault walls protected by guns, can't cut off supply by river ships.
Russian fortifications sucked ass pic related, European size artillery would level them couple days but Nomads had no such artillery.

>>63944056
>Mamelukes
Sipahi, my mistake.

>>63943977
Except India is even more to the south than Xinnie the Pooh-land, and is cow country. Notoriously so.

>>63944056
Russians also used portable fortifications which could be wheeled in place, to create a local strong point.

>>63943047
The same place you concentrate your other troops?

>>63944324
>t. doesn't know the difference between northern and southern Indian cuisine
theorycrafting again

ever seen southern Indian cattle? they're scrawny as shit, because once again, not the right kind of weather to build proper dairy herds from
down in the south they don't drink a lot of milk either, instead they make clarified butter from the milk they do get. it's a better use of limited resources
it's up in the north where you get more dairy-based cuisine, and why? because places like Punjab, Rajasthan and Kashmir are up in the cold, where cattle do much better
Punjab for example averages about 26 degrees C due to its elevation, which is much more conducive to dairy farming

>>63942848 (OP)
the size of china and the range of the mongols probably didn't help. Wiki says Ming is 1360s-1640s. I'd have to assume there would be massive logistics and supply issues involved with arming a bunch of fronter troops who could be attacked by nomads at that time.

>>63943147
good post

In terms of the versus nomads that was the point I had heard with Texans vs Comanches. That before Sammy colt came along it was a nightmare fighting them and they were at a severe disadvantage. Once colt comes along then nomads ain't shit but hos and tricks.

>>63943147
I buy this. Chinese also prioritized human maneuver to an extreme degree for their farms because they did not have nearly as much animal stock as (almost wrote humans for some reason lol) Europeans did. I'd add onto the lactose tolerance that the Chinese just fundamentally did not see a value in animal labor to the level the Europeans did. You bring up an interesting point with India where despite lots of cheap human labor they still had dairy farms and livestock to use.

>>63944670
Manure, not manuever, mea culpa. You get my point - I know the anon disagreeing with your theory will chime in otherwise but the point is relative to one another the Europeans were using vastly larger amounts of animal stock (For food, for agriculture, for dairy) than the Chinese were. And this means more stool which means more peepeepoopoo sources. It's not lactose intolerance so much as it is the amount of livestock, but the lactose plays a part.

Also plz don't disagree with me anon I don't want to have to fetch my book and go citing passages I want to be lazy today. I misplaced it after I was renovating the bathroom where I'd read it while doing a poo in loo and I forget where I put it.

But there's a digital form https://archive.org/details/BraudelFernandCivilizationAndCapitalism/Braudel%2C%20Fernand%20-%20Civilization%20and%20Capitalism%2C%20Vol.%201/

I'll try and find the page vaguely where that idea of mine came from (China having less livestock around than europe)

>>63944682
Alright, it starts around page 337 through to 352, although there's also other bits elsewhere that paints the picture of European use of animal livestock being greater than China's.

Anything more and I am too lazy to go digging around.

>>63944682
>It's not lactose intolerance so much as it is the amount of livestock
that's my point, and I'm saying the reason is mainly due to climate

>>63944056
The nomads China faced were 10x more numerous than the ones Russia faced + they had cannons. The Chinks actually has 0 chance without the natural fortifications of tall mountains and their great wall fortifications. Its surprising how they managed to fend off jurchen attacks during the ming considering how shit they were. The japanese were far more advanced than they were in terms of warfare but they beat them in korea anyways. War is more than just using the best tech. China was actually ahead of Europe for much of history until the industrial revolution.

Lets put it this way. Europeans were busy killing each other and having to devise the best ways to kill each other. From here, pike and shot evolved. Obviously, pikes are slow as shit. In China, they only fought the nomads and therefore they didn't bother with pikes and instead focused on mass crossbows and bows. By the time of the Ming, they were transitioning into gunpowder weapons in large numbers just like Europe.

>>63942848 (OP)
Why does every single "asianist" or "sinologist" always spew the most batshit retarded cope fantasies imaginable? What's their deal?

>>63945240
>China was actually ahead of Europe for much of history until the industrial revolution.
Lmao, no. China was never ahead of classical Greece, let alone anyone else.

>>63945240
By the time of the industrial revolution in the late 1600s, Ming had collapsed and were conquered by Qing so there was political upheaval and a whole bunch of natural disasters and rebellions. Meanwhile Europe at the same time had the industrial revolution, producing pic related. China got unlucky at the end.

>>63943896
Yeah, but not really. Nobody gave a fuck about that.

>>63945240
>Obviously, pikes are slow as shit. In China, they only fought the nomads and therefore they didn't bother with pikes and instead focused on mass crossbows and bows.
Because archers are faster than pikemen, right. This totally makes sense.

>>63945257
can't recall Greece ever developing gunpowder weapons

>>63945257
>China was never ahead of classical Greece, let alone anyone else.
In terms of state stuff and tech, China was far ahead of Greece and perhaps Rome. This is agreed upon by every facet of global academia. Its only at the start of the 18th century that Europe blew changs out of the water, so to speak.

>>63945240
>+ they had cannons
Then why didn't the chinks mass hand cannons against the nomads if they were so relevant'

>>63945249
westerners inherently know some stuff about yurop. the far east is just some mythical place where kungfu and rice were invented.

>>63945265
>In terms of state stuff and tech, China was far ahead of Greece and perhaps Rome
World's oldest patent mill, lol.
>This is agreed upon by every facet of global academia
One communist quack isn't that.
>Its only at the start of the 18th century
More like start of the 12th century. China was a backwards shithole compared to Islamic golden age states.

>>63945279
I dont know why youre seething so much but ok. Have it your way.

>>63945268
The truth is chink guns were completely useless firecrackers before they started copying Western designs.

>>63945279
>China was a backwards shithole compared to Islamic golden age states.
This. The arabs were light years ahead of everyone else but we beat them all the same. Whites conquered the world for a reason.

>>63945284
And the lying chink wanker flees away, beaten again like it's 1899.

>>63945258
> Ming had collapsed and were conquered by Qing so there was political upheaval and a whole bunch of natural disasters and rebellions.
>here was political upheaval and a whole bunch of natural disasters and rebellions
that's Europe plus endless warfare
the chinese stagnated because they where trying to keep a much to large polity together
to much effort and talent went into keeping it all that they couldn't spare it to innovate
even when they did innovation can shake things up and as the ruling dynasty you don't want that.
Europe on the other hand being divided in smaller polities where in a state of constant innovation because getting left behind was a great way to get your shit pushed in so even when the ruling family doesn't want to innovate they'd be forced to by internal decent or external pressure

thread has devolved into turdie shitflinging

>>63945286
>The truth is chink guns
are the oldest gunpowder weapon artifacts in existence

>>63945299
That doesn't mean they are good

>>63945304
probably better than nothing though, otherwise they wouldn't be made and used at all

>>63945289
Technically Arabs retook Jerusalem after almost a century of Western control due to a succession crisis in the kingdom but their golden age ended before that due to them rejecting the virtues of both the thinkers of antiquity and their own greatest minds, which were celebrated, reproduced and multiplied in Europe. Mongol destruction of Baghdad and the loss of Andalusia finished the job.

>>63945279
>>63945289
the islamic golden age is a bit of a misnomer though
most of the men doing the work weren't muslim or weren't arabs
they only part that muslim arabs played in it was bringing them all together and letting them get on with it.

>>63945309
>probably better than nothing
Yes, just barely. I've mentioned this part in "useless firecrackers"

>>63945314
Pretty much. Arabs stole everything made by whites. They didn't do much. They spent what? A century? Just to take Jerusalem which is on their doorstep. Taking Jerusalem from whites is fucking nothing seeing as its one fucking Mediterranean ocean away.

>>63944620
Thank you cow man

>>63945314
That's true, it's just the common name for the period, much like arab golden age even if both are a misnomer. The Muslims actually persecuted and even killed some of the most famous and praised "muslim" thinkers and scientists for being heathens and contradicting islam.

>>63945299
They came up with it in a lucky coincidence. We perfected it. Show me the colonization map. Youd notice the changs themselves got conquered by us and were forced to smoke opium to enrich our coffers. They had dogshit military, dogshit tech, dogshit people. Europe was so far ahead of them at every point of history its so fucking obvious they made shit up. Like in most museums where they claim their mud statues are actually super sophisticated and made 10k years ago but its actually made like 50 yeas ago. Their entire history is fake.

>>63945316
as in, better than having zero guns

>>63945330
trying too hard

>>63945330
Like conveniently every piece of ancient chink tech they discover is in China. Like... who the fuck are they trying to fool? Wheres the fucking non biased sources? The whole world can attest to European dominance and European tech because they got conquered by us. China didn't do shit because China didn't have shit.

>>63945335
>as in, better than having zero guns
But much worse than actually useful guns that were developed less than a century after. In Europe.

>>63945335
>as in, better than having zero guns
>gets fucked by Europe and suffers 100 years of humiliation
Pick one, zhang.

>>63945240
>China was actually ahead of Europe for much of history until the industrial revolution.
Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, Europe achieved industrial revolution first simply because we were ahead of everyone else instead? Maybe you should stop listening to fake commie academics who hate white men and listen to your own gut. Do more reading and don't read anything printed after 1900s. We were all lied to anon.

>>63945339
And yet Europeans spent 2 millennials carrying gold and silver to the East to buy fired clay, steel, clothes, tech and species.
The only European thing China was interested in was silver, and occasionally transparent glass or wine. They're far more interested in animals like steppe's horses.
The European Imperialism was born to get better access to Chinese products after the continuous problems with the silk road. Unironically one of the key development for the industrial revolution, furnaces capable of going beyond 1200ºC with decent efficiency were developed after the ban on Egyptian soda by the Eastern Roman Empire, but of course, they're just trying to replicate imports with ersatz tech.

>>63945368
Yeah i mean, its fine if you want to believe modern academia and their lies but you cant seriously think spouting that shit will convince anyone. Fired clay? What? Europe was unable to make clay? Are you fucking kidding me? Spice? That shit was in Indonesia and India which by the way, we fucking conquered.. Youre fucking stupid.

>>63945368
>And yet Europeans spent 2 millennials carrying gold and silver to the East to buy fired clay, steel, clothes, tech and species.
Actually they were buying gold since chinks valued silver more. Arabs were also buying silks from china, unraveling them and weaving fabric that they sold back to china. Their textiles were so superior they could do a round trip, re-weave the silk and still make a profit off of dumb chinks. Europeans were also selling indian spices to china in massive amounts, half of their exports from India went there instead of Europe. Chinks bought European glassware since Roman times.

Chinks were literally secondary jeets for Europe.

>>63945393
>Actually they were buying gold since chinks valued silver more.
Kek. Stupid motherfuckers didn't know gold is more valuable than silver.

>>63945377
> What? Europe was unable to make clay? .
low fired clay, high fired clay was completely absent in Europe pre-1600s even if Romans were close during 2 centuries before their collapse. Not only that, Europe didn't have any kind of high temperature kiln or big bloomery pre-1200s. Not only they weren't interested by they avoided going beyond 1000-1100ºC because it actually caused defect in their products. Only with Forest glass (a kind of ersatz glass) they began to develop higher temperature kilns but still using the frit process. And the influence of arabs/silk road also created pressure to enlarge bloomery construction and transform them into blast furnaces working semi-continously.
By that time China had +1500 years of history casting iron and Japan already had a well developed pre-industry of pig iron and steel using their quasi-blast furnaces (Tatara, 10 times lager than any European bloomery of the late medieval period).
So yes, not only they couldn't but they didn't even understand the advantage of higher temperature.

>>63945368
>Unironically one of the key development for the industrial revolution, furnaces capable of going beyond 1200ºC with decent efficiency were developed after the ban on Egyptian soda by the Eastern Roman Empir
Complete nonsense through and through. Not a single word of this is real.

Meanwhile Europeans cracked the code of porcelain in less than a century after porcelain became a commodity in Europe.

>>63945405
>shit sculpters were absent in Europe therefore Jeets were far ahead of us stupid whites
Ok.

>>63945405
All of this is chink schizobabble with no basis in reality. Chink metallurgy was absolute trash, capable of only producing potmetal junk.

>>63945405
How fucking stupid can you be? WAKE UP FUCKING RETARD AND USE YOUR HEAD.
Like think for a second here. THINK. Why do you think Europe conquered the world if we were so fucking far behind the rest of the world? Can you just use your brain for a second here.

>>63945400
Oh gold was still valuable but proportionally silver was much more so so Euros sold spices and textiles to Japan in exchange for silver they mined and then off-loaded it in china for gold that they took back home.

>>63945405
>because it actually caused defect in their products
Pig iron is the defect, it's originally a waste product that reduces the yield of useful iron unless it's all that you produce.

>>63945409
>Complete nonsense through and through. Not a single word of this is real.
Post examples of Europeans casting pig iron pre 1000s
Post examples of European high-fired stoneware-porcelain pre 1700
Post examples of finery forges pre modernity

>Meanwhile Europeans cracked the code of porcelain in less than a century after porcelain became a commodity in Europe.
There were a 400 years gap between the widespread existence of porcelain an a economically viable production in Europe. There's a 400-500 years gap in the use of coke for iron too, China began to replace charcoal during the Song dinasty.
Meanwhile Japan could develop their own porcelain in just 200 years.

>>63945436
Pig iron is a defect if you don't keep experimenting or knowing how to use cast iron for useful things like plow blades.

>>63945439
Let me guess. You believe in aliens too? Is that why Europe went from cavemen status to world hegemon? Or you believe Europe never conquered the other races? Which is it

>>63945439
>>63945439
Post examples of chink non-potmetal metallurgy.
>There were a 400 years gap between the widespread existence of porcelain an a economically viable production in Europe
No there wasn't. Europe started buying porcelain in the 16th century and already made their own in the 17th.
>There's a 400-500 years gap in the use of coke for iron too, China began to replace charcoal during the Song dinasty.
Chink coke was shit, that's why they never produced good iron or steel.

>>63945452
It's a defect if you want useful iron as an output. Since standards for metal quality were that much higher in Europe potmetal just couldn't pass there so they had to improve the technology further to make it better.

>>63945455
>irrelevant offtopic
Not interested in discussing your fantasies

>>63945494
Your chink fantasies are an irrelevant offtopic. So why shouldn't we discuss the insatiable hunger chink women have for foreign cock? Are chinese males really so effeminate and disgusting that women would rather fuck a pig than be in the same room with them?

>>63945460
>. Europe started buying porcelain in the 16th century and already made their own in the 17th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonthill_Vase
Pre Black Death...

>Chink coke was shit, that's why they never produced good iron or steel.
Lmao even. Pre Bessemer (that couldn't handle continental Iron) all iron was shit and refinery time consuming, in fact Europe spent more charcoal to decarburize their pig iron than to smelting it (not linking the dois, they're easy to find).


>Post examples of chink non-potmetal metallurgy.
Most pre 1900 alloys with European names came from china (natural or man-made alloys). Reminder that Europe was importing metallic zinc for centuries before the official """discovery"""
For ferrous metallurgy it would be too extensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_sword

>>63945507
>all iron was shit
Chinks couldn't even make a simple breastplate. That's how awful was their potmetal. Meanwhile Europe was making spring steel in the 1300s.
>Most pre 1900 alloys with European names came from china
Lmao.

>>63945507
Nobody cares about porcelain until the 16 century when it became popular in Europe.

Also the chink forgery sword is a fucking joke.

>>63942848 (OP)
Russia went from paying tribute to the various Khanates to making the various Khanates its bitch in the exact moment it got access to reasonable quantities of firearms. A couple hundred cossaks were suddenly able to beat several thousand horae archers (although logistical issues still managed to screw them over every now and then).
So it's patently bullshit.

>>63942848 (OP)
Chinese simply sucked at all forms of warfare for their entire history. That's why they were subjugated and raped at every opportunity by foreigners. That's also why they cowardly pretend they had super advanced super secret special weapons that nobody can attest to except some chinese historians from state propaganda department.

>>63945545
Imagine that Kung Fu master that got his face caved in the moment he faced a real fighter in public rather that brainwashed pupils in his temple - entirety of China is like that.

>>63945515
>breastplate
yet they had no problem making long swords, cultural preferences are a thing you know, that's why I compare them in tech level rather than specific products or inventions.
Otherwise I would mention the recurved bow (lost tech in Europe) and the more advanced variants that existed well before the modernity.

>Lmao.
>being this ignorant

The only area were Europeans were really ahead was large siege engines and shipbuilding (mostly northern countries from Iberia to Norway)
And their isolationism reduced the improvement of their gunpowder tech because they didn't have relevant wars pre 1700-1800s but in general they're early and faster adopters of "non problematic novelties" like new crops from the Americas, even earlier than European countries.

>>63945557
This did happen. Some chang studied mma and beat up a bunch of kungfu masters. I think he is currently being persecuted by the government. Maybe he got his organs harvested already.

>>63945563
>cultural preferences
Yes, cultural preferences for worthless potmetal and garbage swords.
>The only area were Europeans were really ahead was large siege engines and shipbuilding
The only area where chinksects were ahead was the amount of dogshit potmetal that they couldn't do anything useful with

>>63945563
>Otherwise I would mention the recurved bow (lost tech in Europe)
Byzantines, Italians, Hungarians and Balkans made infinitely better bows than chinks and could draw much greater weights than scrawny chink manlets. Hide glue doesn't play well with wet northern climates.

>>63945563
>but in general they're early and faster adopters of "non problematic novelties" like new crops from the Americas, even earlier than European countries
Imagine believing this.

>>63945584
>Hide glue doesn't play well with wet northern climates.
Mongols and related were using their bows in monsoonal areas...

If changs are so good? How come chang never colonize Europe?

>>63945588
And they didn't use them very well in there either, especially when it's actually the rain season

>>63945400
silver was more plentiful than gold in many places and was a very good choice for use as currency. Money supply versus value of the metal is why standards had flipped back and forth between gold and silver between the medieval and victorian era

>>63945595
How come they never even colonized south Asia? Some brown aboriginals bent chinks over their knees and gave them a whipping while Euros arrived in there and in like 5 years conquered their most lucrative trading strait state by accident.

>>63945585
Potato-sweet potato, tomato, and cassava were more common in China and the rest of East Asia than in Europe proper, and it wasn't due to the weather. Only settlers in America were early adopters but not in Europe, unlike East Asia that as soon as they acquired a new crop they utilized it because their main problem was not having direct access to America, it's their own fault.
>inb4 famine check the history of famines in the pre industrial world.

>>63945604
Almost as if China was so far behind the rest of the world that they were actual complete jokes.

>>63945622
>Potato-sweet potato, tomato, and cassava were more common in China and the rest of East Asia than in Europe proper
Not really. More like chinks didn't care if it was poisonous because chink lives are worthless so instead of selectively breeding an edible crop they just grew it and used it as an appetizer to their cannibalistic meals

>>63945622
>check the history of famines in the pre industrial world.
China is the world's greatest innovator in the proliferation of famines. Implessive.

>>63945630
>if it was poisonous
Oh no, the boooooogeyman
They knew more about poisons and diseases than Europeans, in fact they were doing variolation 300 years before Europeans.
In fact a lot of early European inventions in drugs were related to toxic compounds of mercury, arsenic and plants.

>>63945650
>They knew more about poisons and diseases than Europeans
They certainly carried more of them. Plague originated from china as well.

>>63945662
>Plague originated from china as well.
It didn't, it was from the Caspian region, and they got their own plague pandemic way later, ~150 years ago.

>>63942848 (OP)
Absolutely retarded. This guys either a midwit in his field, or a sinophile. The Safavid Persians, Mughals, and Russians started fucking steppeshitters up HARD as soon as they got muskets and and gunpowder artillery. Shit, the Russians were really in near-constant warfare with tribes across a wider and harsher front than the Ming, and they still pushed into their territory, building tons of forts along the way.

The real reason the Chinese were so late adopting guns is the reason why they created the compass and still never sailed the vast seas: Confucianism.

>Someone suggests at one point in time Europe was not the top dog civilizationally
>Screeching and throwing shit and temper tantrums out the ass.

>>63945796
>Some thirdie pretends they were ever relevant to civilization
>Angry tirades and screeching about Europeans who actually discovered and taught him when his shithole nation even started wiping their asses ensues

>>63945240
>The nomads China faced were 10x more numerous than the ones Russia faced
China
China population itself was slightly larger too something like 100 milions vs 6 milions during 1500.

>and their great wall fortifications.
Funny thing is Russia build their great wall against Nomads too only they don't teach that in schools.

>China was actually ahead of Europe for much of history until the industrial revolution.
China bad many important inventions adopted by Europe that paved way for industrial revolution like horse shoe, horse collar, paper and the king of inventions gunpowder. But they didn't invent arquebuse, they didn't invent movable printing press. That is the timeline when Europe massively leaped ahead (around 1500 not during industrial revolution aka 1800).

>>63946006
China didn't invent the horseshoe, Europe did. Beginning with hipposandal and hoof boot, with signs of possible horseshoes being used during the same period but definitive evidence for them appearing around the 4th century AD.

>>63945808
Back when we were literally conquering their lands we still had the self-confidence to go
>Yes there was once a time when the brown man or yellow man was superior in civilization to us. That is no longer true.
So they were able to straight up bitch-smack them and yet recognize once upon a time white man wasn't kangz, yet you have a panic attack if you're not able to maintain that 100% perfect reality. It's not just a cringing unsightly behavior of an insecure faggot to be unable to accept that your enemy in some way or in some point in the past was commendable or even better than you, it's a straight up third world kind of mentality where nothing matters but face, that reality must give way to saving face at all costs.

Congratulations, you've stared into the abyss and become the third world brown staring back.

>>63946037
>Yes there was once a time when the brown man or yellow man was superior in civilization to us. That is no longer true.
Except this didn't happen. Every time anyone said this they just didn't know any better, like 90% of islamic "inventions" being copies and reproductions from Greeks or Romans or chinks being pretentious liars that fabricated their entire history to sniff their own farts and whose all discoveries were all useless form with no substance until a superior nation took them and realized their utility.

You chink shills always make those bad faith arguments as you try to slime in some credit for yourself.

>>63946065
Again, our betters in the past when they were establishing empires the world had never seen before coming up with technologies to catapult us from an existence largely the same from 1000 BC to 1700 AD had the self confidence to recognize when Europe wasn't at the forefront but you are such a scared little bitch nigger that you can't accept that. I expect back before Greece was anything worth a damn and self-recognized they were poor and primitive relative to Persia (Herodotus Greek line of how they came to rob Greece of its poverty while they had plenty after one of em comes across the Persian's opulent camp) you'd come up with some wewuzzer bullshit.


How much of a scared little bitch are you man? How much of a bitch nigger are you that you can't accept that at one point your and my ancestors weren't the top dogs on the totem pole?

God you're fucking pathetic.

>>63942848 (OP)
It must have been really time-consuming writing out chinese characters by hand back then. Now it's super easy with keyboards and shit, but back then you had to remember every stroke for every character.

>>63946084
>our
Not yours, stinky chinky. You never achieved any of this

>>63946084
>expect back before Greece was anything worth a damn and self-recognized they were poor and primitive relative to Persia
Persia was big but lacked quality.
Where are sculptures like this?
Or Persian Pythagorean theorem or calculation of Earth diameter?
Greeks civilisation was very small numbers wise but their intellectual achievements were ridiculously ahead of everyone.

>>63945425
>Europe conquered the world 400 years after they gained this technology from the East
>IT NEVER HAPPENED THEY CAME UP WITH IT AND ALWAYS HAD IT
Americans

>>63946084
Europe had it's ups and downs but no thirdie shithole everr reached any superiority without copying the products of Western civilization. It just didn't happen, and it's all more clear the more we realize about history.

China didn't have one tenth of the technology, philosophy, science, engineering, martial prowess or art that Greece and Rome have achieved.

>>63946129
>after they gained this technology from the East
Actually Europeans invented gunpowder independently and were dominating the world in the early 1500s.

>>63946138
Romaboos need to be whipped

>>63945299
>are the oldest gunpowder weapon artifacts in existence
the chinese invented gunpowder in their attempts at alchemy and found "better" usage for it in alchemy, magic, and fireworks than they did for firearms

>>63946147
Chinks should be gassed.

>>63946141
>independently
It was more like "hey, those Kithayans have this powder which goes boom-whoosh when lit, can you alchemist guys figure out how it's made?"
The Bacon alchemist family came up with a self-discovered recipe, but the idea was brought in from the East.

>>63945263
>>63945268
Beating nomads comes down to effectively screening their cavalry, laying down high volume fire with archers/crossbows, and forcing engagements.
Pike-and-shot warfare gets you nowhere in the open steppe. It's designed to counter closed formations, as were common in Europe.
The very best way, as proven by the Ming Dynasty, is just providing material support to other nomads who are answerable to the state.
>>63945353
The industrial revolution was a product of internal politics and available technology. China had all of the necessary technology to kickstart the IR back in the 1100s, but their society was the issue.
The Chinese government actively opposed mercantile interests that could exist and act apart from the state, and didn't build up a proto-middle-class as England had. Moreover, whenever a law or ban was laid out to apply to all of China, there was no escaping it. Books could be completely purged, upstarts could be hunted down, and larger numbers of Chinese were totally illiterate anyway. There was too large a chasm separating the educated and affluent from their more numerous counterparts in the lower classes.
You can find more on the topic if you search for "The Needham Question".

>>63946115
Not him but the Pythagorean theorem is the worst example you could give. It was independently invented in Babylon, India, China and Egypt, often before Greece

>>63946161
There is virtually zero evidence for transmission of the knowledge from china, all the neighboring nations discovered it substantially later and England is the furthest place from any of them. It was discovered independently.

>>63946162
>The very best way, as proven by the Ming Dynasty
Chinese lost every war they fought. There is nothing but the worst way with chinks because all they ever do is lose when it comes to fighting.

>>63944670
>I'd add onto the lactose tolerance that the Chinese just fundamentally did not see a value in animal labor to the level the Europeans did.
The Chinese aristocracy, up until the 1700s (Jethro Tull finally bringing a functional seed drill to Europe), had better equipment for converting animal labor into value, and so, had lesser need for individual oxen, and a greater ability to purchase and utilize land.

>>63946162
>China had all of the necessary technology to kickstart the IR back in the 1100s
Literally not a single element of it. Rome was closer to industrial revolution that china in the 1900s.

>>63946162
>The Needham Question".
Aka a communist quack that makes up shit to ascribe china things with zero evidence. Literally a CCP paid race traitor propagandist.

>>63946138
You're joking right? Up till the medieval era China was at worst, equal to the best of European technology. Most significantly inventions of that period are Chinese
>Gunpowder
>Stirrup leggings (there were many versions but China has a reasonable claim for pair stirrups)
>Paper
>Compass
The parts they were notably weak at were trebuchets and ships. Not that they were bad at it, they just weren't at the absolute cutting edge

>>63946171
>>63946179
>>63946182
Does some part of your ego get damaged when you hear that, at some point in humans history, Europeans weren't at the fore of human technology?

>>63946176
China didn't have half the European capacity in terms water power and at every point in history was lagging behind them in overall productivity.

>>63946182
If you actually read Needham he actually argued that the "bourgeois revolution", ie the accumulation of capital in individuals and businesses, was a driving force for industrialisation.

>>63946187
Does making bad faith whining when your lies are exposed make it feel any better, slant scum?

>>63946200
If you know who needham is you know that his word is more worthless than that of chink historians.

>>63946196
>China didn't have half the European capacity in terms water power
I don't know whether or not that's true, or if it even matters.
>>63946202
I'm not even Asian. I have no idea what's setting you off right now.

>>63946179
>Rome was closer to industrial revolution that china in the 1900s.
Not at all.
Could Rome make this? No.
Did Rome want to go that pass? No. They don't have gunpowder and cannons that created insatiable thirst for metal.
China could. But like anon said their society was a problem.

>>63946183
None of those things were worth anything until Europeans improved them and they are nothing compared to the Greek and Roman technology the chinks never had which was actually the measure of technological level of civilization.

>>63946162
It was the mandarin class who fucked up Chinese development, in their frenetically retarded push to maintain exclusive privileges.

>>63946168
Gunpowder was known as far back as the Crusades, but was only used for grenades and horse-scarers. It took a bit of experimentation by Europe's alchemist families to come up with a consistently-performing composition.

>>63946210
This is just mindless.
Again, tell me why this bothers you. You're obviously lashing out in pain here, but there's no reason you should be feeling any.

>>63946209
Chinese potmetal still puts the further away from industrial revolution that china. They had superior everything else and even their steel was better than chink potmetal.

>>63946215
>Gunpowder was known as far back as the Crusades
No it wasn't. First descriptions of gunpowder in the region are also European. There were incendiary weapons that Byzantines used but they weren't gunpowder.

>>63946216
How about you go fuck yourself and go suck off your needham daddy while you jerk off to glorious china that only exists in your fever dream instead of trying your bad faith reasoning? You're bad at it

>>63946217
Shitposting.

China just didn't have the technology, they didn't even have Euclidean geometry or the Archimedean screw. It wasn't one thing or even a few things, they lacked a cluster of innovations developed during the renaissance and dating back to the classical era, both what modern minds understand as technology and mathematics but also innumerable smaller innovations used by artisans.

They were too far behind to manufacture flintlocks themselves and did not like the idea of becoming dependent on European imports, so the Qing in its heyday just cut off contact with the outside world. It was difficult for 17th century Europeans to develop the flintlock which was both reliable and able to be produced cheaply enough for the ranks of levied peasants, as opposed to some rich cavalier's fancy wheellock pistol only intended to be fired once before being handed to a squire for the laborious reloading.

>>63946222
Romans had massively more mechanical knowledge and precision which are necessary for industrial revolution. They had better science too. Romans were masters of water power which drove the development of industrial revolution too, while china was pathetic at it.

Meanwhile chink shills pretend all you need is some shitty potmetal production when they didn't even advance past medieval Europe in metallurgy, let alone early modern one

>>63946225
It was difficult for 17th century Europe, let alone China, rather. The invention of the flintlock mechanism was not enough, they also needed specialized workshops and artisans to manufacture the mechanisms to the degree of precision necessary, before machine tools no less, often with closely guarded secrets with different states like the Ottomans possessing wildly different techniques. It was not feasible to move this all to China.

>>63946233
The Roman richfag class self-sabotaged themselves (and ultimately the entire empire), when they refused to move past slaves.
The main obstacle to Roman industrialization was the excessively abundant amount of supercheap manual labor. Had the empire experienced the Black Death, it would've likely provided an impetus to mechanize labor.

>>63942848 (OP)
It stagnated because the Chinamen smart enough to innovate were RAPED out of existence by horsechads.

>>63946245
>when they refused to move past slaves.
More like when they decided to outsource their military and inflate their currency into worthlessness.

Romans were the most industrialized nations by far for the next thousand years, with massive centralized plants producing goods employing hundreds of workers supported by extensive water power contraptions. Their mechanized technology was widely praised and celebrated despite their dependence on slaves.

None of this was enough though because you need extreme precision and vast scientific knowledge to approach actual industrial revolution which nobody even came close to until the scientific revolution in Europe in the 17th century.

>>63946261
Roman logistics were so good they could allow for industrial had other factors allow it to happen though, as there needs to be demand for goods that can justify the upfront cost of large scale manufacturing setup.

You don't need that much metal though because if you're just mechanizing manufacturing rather than building railroads you can make do with less, like industrialized textile industry for example but cheap steel does improve the upfront cost and expands the opportunities.

>>63946261
One notable weakspot of the Roman economy was agriculture. It was underdeveloped from the beginning of the empire, all the way to its end. See the constant excessive over-reliance on Egypt.

>>63946284
Actually the weak Roman agriculture is a myth and they had developed many innovations that would be set back afterwards, including extensive selective breeding, introduction and modification of the heavy plough, food preservation and delivery and so on.

>>63946225
Archimedean screws are actually part of the flintlock, not just to attach the metal to the wood but the important breech plug. While the screws themselves were not "eyeballed", the tools needed to make them were and everything had to be carefully calculated to fit.

When the Qing attempted to copy British artillery during the unprovoked Chinese aggression against innocent British merchants wars they could not reproduce the elevation screw, apparently unaware of the device, with their artisans casting a similar shaped piece of metal sticking out of the gun with no utility in raising or lowering the gun.

As far as I know the Chinese never had the screw until Europeans brought it to them and even then they were slow to adopt it, certainly the use of precise metal screws and metal nuts. I found this source claiming it was introduced, but jesuits to upper class academics who apparently did not transmit this information to their workers.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43150795

this is also pretty interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_O1-chxAdk

>>63946233
Industrial revolution is railroad.
To built railroads you need blast furnace producing large quantities of metal at once.
Rome didn't have blast furnace. In Europe blast furnace appeared in 13th century and went mainstream in 15th century due to demand for cannons and cast iron cannon balls. That is necessary prerequisite for industrial revolution. Rome had logistics to build railroads (see their roads and aqueducts) but had no technology.
China had blast furnace since 1st century.

>>63946294
Yes, they invented a lot of stuff in terms of preservation (mainly as a military project) and ease of manufacture (including dried yeast).
But they lacked volume, in any place other than Egypt. And we know this because, whenever the Egyptian grain transports got fucked, unrest followed.

>>63946303
Europeans had screw cutting lathes with a moving tool rest by then and from the clockmaker trade the industry for screw making developed extensively, to the point of using them as decorative objects, like on the pommel of English basket hilted swords in the 17th century.

>>63946308
>Industrial revolution is railroad
Completely wrong. It's what thirdies associate it with because they see wypipo build it in their village but industrial revolution is about mechanized industry and subsequent rise in productivity. Railroads only became important decades after industrial revolution already dramatically changed society in many ways

>>63946245
>The Roman richfag class self-sabotaged themselves (and ultimately the entire empire), when they refused to move past slaves.
That is the Marxist blabbering.
Romans build massive infrastructure projects improving effeciency despite "why bother when have dem slaves" Marxist meme. See roads and aqueducts.
Railroads (even with horse carriages) would be radical improvement to their logistics comparing to stone paved roads but Rome simply had no prerequisite tech for railroads. They couldn't make rails, their bloomery metallurgy was insufficient.

>>63946308
You also need good metal instead of just cast iron, which chinese couldn't produce. They also couldn't refine nearly as much iron as Europe did during the industrial revolution because they had no reverberatory furnace necessary for the puddling process, just primitive finery forges.

China had nothing for Industrial revolution, nothing. Even Romans mechanized oronmaking better with hydr power, and their iron was worse than medieval iron and steel.

>>63946310
>But they lacked volume
More like they were too populated and their cities too dense due to the amazing maritime logistics of Rome. The population grew with the lands that supported it.

Rome had one million people populating it before the fall.

>>63946317
Completely right. Modern people spoiled by car don't realize how much horse cart sucks. How land logistics was inexistent prior to railroad.
Random economic Roman fact: moving grain 200km by donkey/ox carts Romans used increased it's price by 200%. If there is no ship we aren't going. This why Roman empire was thin line smeared over walls of the Mediterranean Sea, it's essentially line of naval transportation costs.
Railroads rewrote economic geography allowed to connect economically lands that before were "on the another planet".

>>63946328
>You also need good metal instead of just cast iron
First full metal rails were cast iron dummy.

>>63946313
At 21:00 in the video it says the screws were made by hand, also machine tools were apparently built by the workshops themselves, as opposed to standardized machine tools appearing in the late 18th century. Though I'm sure screws for attaching metal to wood could be manufactured en masse elsewhere, the breech bolt would have to be made to fit in the workshop.

In any case, whatever technical details I'm getting wrong about the manufacture of screws and flintlocks in the 17th century, it is apparent the Chinese would have had difficulty with it. And the Romans.

>>63946317
Also railroads are just expensive roads without the steam engine and are hardly useful or worthwhile when drawn by horses except in extreme rare cases where the additional load bearing capacity is needed. Not to mention other things like precise wheels and axles that can handle and fit on the rails right or bearings to allow the wheels to rotate pelroperly. All require precision and knowledge that nobody but scientific age Europe had, or anything even close to it.

>>63946342
River traffic was a massive deal too, that's also why towns and cities were founded on them. It's not just about water access or fishing.

>>63946348
Most screws would be built by hand using a thread cutter, especially the smaller ones. Metal lathes would be incredibly rare and exclusive to super large manufactories with access to water power, similar to cannon drilling machines of the 18th century.

>>63946356
>Also railroads are just expensive roads without the steam engine and are hardly useful or worthwhile when drawn by horses except in extreme rare cases where the additional load bearing capacity is needed
Anon horse can carry at least 10 times more weight over full metal railroad (due to small friction) than over stone paved road. That is radical improvement see above about grain carriage costs in Rome. For the same cost you can move cargo 2000km instead if 200 km. That's rewriting land economic geography even without steam engine. People miss that fact because railroads quickly went steam but horse powered railroads is transportation revolution already.

>>63946346
Will you be making your axles out of cast iron too? Fucking retarded chink

>>63946378
It's why the omnibus got replaced by the horse tram the instant rails became cheap enough to install in cities.

>>63946378
>Anon horse can carry at least 10 times more weight over full metal railroad
And a railroad costs more that 10 horses walking down this road for a decade. There are few scenarios where it is a worthwhile investment with horse power.

>>63946373
Intredasting, the Chinese of course did not even have workshop sized thread cutters, so they were pretty far from being able to manufacture flintlocks themselves.

However Russia made rapid progress east before the flintlock, reaching Manchuria by the 1650s, so the flintlock saga does not actually answer OP's question. China was however slow to adopt the matchlock, even by 1840 only a handful of soldiers were using them. They could manufacture matchlocks but perhaps lacked the technology to manufacture matchlocks reliable enough efficiently enough for widespread use.

>>63946385
Horse powered metal rails spread like wildfire as soon as they were invented in Britain anon. Steam locomotive came to already operating railroads. And like anon pointed they were installed even on small scale ways like tramways in cities (were steam powered locomotives were too polluting and cumbersome to operate). They already had paved roads "for free" in cities where railroads tramways were installed.

>>63946404
Sure, because of British metallurgy and industrialized iron making greatly reducing costs. I'm talking about preindustrial techniques here.

>>63946401
To make a matchlock proper you need a spring and still a couple precise parts in a housing. Chinese steel was trash so no wonder they couldn't make it.

There's also serpentine musket which doesn't have springs or locks and is just a pivoting trigger but it's kind of a hassle to use sometimes so it could be a preference to not make them. Or they were just broke bitches.

Match lit firearms in general were quite temperamental since the fuse needed management, fiddling, fitting all the time so they were often used by just holding the fuse in your hand even when you had a lock. Although without a rest and with a lock you could aim much more easily.

>>63946421
You could use tinder sticks instead of slow matches, but those were relatively laborious to make, and the right kind of tinder fungus isn't native everywhere. Also they burned quicker than matches.

>>63946436
You still need to adjust them, even more so if they burn faster and they can still fizzle out so you have to take it out and relight it or blow on it to reinforce the fire. It's just very temperamental like a small hot ember no matter what, that's just how it is.

At least you have the pan cover so your gunpowder doesn't instantly get wet in some designs

>>63943977
Latitude comparison are meaningless. Europe is way warmer than it should be because of gulf stream. London is at the same latitude than Calgary and it's not a frozen hellhole.
Big swath of china have similar climates to Europe.
Your conclusion is based on nothing. 1000s of years not liking shitting in spray because of dairy products could be why dairy products are unpopular. Back in the day, it wasn't a small chunk of cheese at the end of the meal. Plus everyone react differently. One person in a family that is more intolerant than the others and the family will tend to avoid it.

>>63945258
It wasn't industrial revolution yet. The earliest time would be 1760/80 and to meaningfully spread to Europe 1840

>>63946006
Europe massively lept ahead due to taking the bible serious again and sending children to school to learn to read it. Education no longer only available to the reach gave a greater pool to pick from for innovation. Meanwhile China squandered their tech by doing nothing with it (keeping books in temples instead of reading them, etc.).
A few centuries later no country could compete with Christian Europe (maybe Japanese because they understood they were falling behind and hence started larping as Westerners to catch up).
Christ is king so whichever nation serves him (as in a critical mass of the population) will pull ahead. This is also how the West may be saved still. Build your culture on Jesus and His kingdom instead of trash and things will go well. That's a historic fact.

>>63945584
Manchu war bows were 80# at the minimum

>>63946303
Did not know they screwed barrels in place. I always figured they just rammed a metal plug down one end of the barrel

>>63946461
And other fictitious things chinks tell themselves as they struggle to lift a glass of water with their scrawny baby hands.

>>63946459
It was because of the printing press, not the bible lmao. The fact that the first book most people would want to read is the Bible has nothing to do with literacy. Just the general availability of reading material.

>>63946459
>Europe massively lept ahead due to taking the Plato serious again
Scholasticism has been a moment of true resurgence of Western civilization and it's caused an exponential growth in knowledge and science in an unbroken traditional until "enlightened" fart sniffing faggots ruined it and rotted it all towards post modernism and leftism of today.

>>63946486
Not least because churches were some of the few entities rich enough to regularly commission printing runs.

The problem was centralization. The shitflinging between small European states led to an arms race of guns, fortifications, and tactics. Qing China only had the Ten Great Campaigns.

>>63945341
yes

>>63945344
civilisations rise and fall
heed this warning

>>63946148
they used it in guns and grenades too

>>63946453
as I mentioned earlier, elevation matters

>>63946514
Nations rise and fall but Western civilization perseveres, even in pathetic imitators like the chinese. They won't last long either.

>>63946502
China has the same issue as Russia, it's too fucking large for a unitary country (not to mention it's the only wide country in the world with a single timezone, leading to some hilarious results). It would work far better as a federation (a true federation, not the fake Russian BS).

>>63946528
I agree, PROVIDED we stick to the important values of honesty and justice, hard work and perseverance, kindness and civility
can't go too far wrong with these

the Chinese dynasties lost the firearms tech race discussed ITT despite pulling ahead earlier, because they didn't
they stopped being honest with themselves, didn't uphold justice, promoted sycophants instead of the clever and hardworking, corrupted the courts, and let the people fall in to hedonism and licentiousness
(ask yourselves, why didn't China just ban opium? same reason the US has a fentanyl problem today - lack of law enforcement)

so as I said: heed this warning
my ancestors left Guangzhou because Britain gave us a better deal than the Qing dynasty did
they said, work hard and respect the law, and we'll give you a fair deal
and it was good

the instant any civilisation East or West goes this way, stays there, and doesn't reform and get out of the slump, it falls
just ask the Greeks, the Romans, the Austro-Hungarians...

>>63946535
>it's too fucking large for a unitary country
possibly
but China is less ethnically diverse (by force of cultural genocide) than most countries, so it has a better shot at internal unity

>>63946535
Chinks are beyond saving, they are like a mixture of jew and jeet. Best thing would be another nationwide disaster where they eat each other until there are <100mil left.

>>63946538
>but China is less ethnically diverse (by force of cultural genocide) than most countries, so it has a better shot at internal unity
It still doesn't counteract the fact that some rando in Xining wakes up at the same 7 a.m. as a rando in Changchun, except the guy in Xining has to wait 3 hours until he sees sunlight.
Their fear of centrifugality leads to some dumb-ass decisions, and I suspect it's what will eventually fuck them over.

>>63946538
>PROVIDED we stick to the important values of honesty and justice, hard work and perseverance, kindness and civility
You don't know a single thing about Western values you dumb chink.
>despite pulling ahead earlier
They didn't.
>they stopped being honest with themselves, didn't uphold justice, promoted sycophants instead of the clever and hardworking, corrupted the courts, and let the people fall in to hedonism and licentiousness
Chinks never had intellectual foundations of Western civilization.
>my ancestors left Guangzhou
Of course it's a chinkshit scum.
>the instant any civilisation East or West goes this way
There is no East or West, there is only West and the ones who managed to embrace it's values.

>>63946538
>(ask yourselves, why didn't China just ban opium? same reason the US has a fentanyl problem today - lack of law enforcement)
I understand that the opiate crisis was triggered because the law is accountable to the rich.

>>63946540
chinese are nothing like pajeets. at this point in history, where people around the world are familiar with both, and with america experiencing the h1b shitstorm and the inability to attack china directly (tariffs are not the same), this should be more than obvious.

>>63946615
Chinese are very much like jeets, from wimpy impotence to deep nepotism to a mix of superiority complex with deeply seated inferiority sentiment, to scammy nature and complete disregard for any morals beyond saving face.

The only real difference between them is the skill and ability to cheat and about 10iq national average.

>>63946628
/k/ related. show us indian 5th gen stealth fighter and EMALS super carrier.

>>63946546
possible

>>63946584
you think the fentheads get nothing out of it?

>>63946628
Oh, and they behave similarly with women too, the difference being jeets keep pestering them while chinx throw a fit and rage on the inside and quickly fold only to vent privately while saving face.

>>63946633
Chinks even behave the same way as jeets when you point them out like this. Totally like a jeet with 10 more IQ.

>>63946628
>chinese are much like jeets

lol, no. jeets are like muslims and jews (perhaps like europoids as well). extreme arrogance, plus religious/racial superiority complexes.

the modern chinese know they are behind america (although ahead of most of europeans in terms of technology, military or otherwise).

and saving face is a pinkoid term. you hooknose pinkoids have lost hundreds of thousands of men in the modern era because your leaders didn't want the shame of losing a war, which you lost anyway.

>>63946647
Oof, the feelings were definitely hurt in this post.

>>63946649
lol, must be.

i'm sure the comeback of europower is just around the corner, pinkoid

>>63946636
>you think the fentheads get nothing out of it?
They took the opiates because that's cheaper than treatment, yes. They're - theoretically - saving up to get better but that they get addicted for a lifetime in the meantime is what the rich who're pushing the opiates are betting on.

>>63946653
They even seethe like jeets. Replace USA with Britain and try to find a difference.

>>63946642
Do not reedem!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Nz1yFR4sa74
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QisIZW7qMBE

>>63946659
the UK is dead. filled with all manner of black and brown invaders who make if unsafe for all british, even the youngest female children.

the situation is not much different in america, where niggers and other vermin have created no go zones that any cracker in this thread dares not go.

what is the situation in china? do they 'seethe' about 4chan or the fact that whiteoids are not lactose intolerant? no, they live in a civilization where they are safe from any american/whiteoid invasion, and where they can honestly tell their children there is a future where they will live a quality of life better than they did. any young man in any 'white' country will live and die in a society that is not as prosperous as the generation that preceded him. plus, you didn't invent the firearm which you love so much, the chinese did. it's over pink nigger.

>>63946654
the system is also designed such that fentheads see huge immediate benefits to staying where they are
free welfare, drugs, food stamps, abortions - all base needs catered for
>the rich
it's not just who we think of as the traditional rich, e.g. Bezos et al
it's also the welfare state government, and Keynesian economists in the Fed. their jobs are made secure by buying votes and holding the reins of the economy by making the economy dependent on monetary and fiscal policy, instead of enterprise
and why would fentheads and single mums and all those other welfare-dependent classes vote for politicians who want to take away their gibs? humans are nothing if not excellent short-term rationalists; it's wholly rational in the short-term to keep sucking the gibs teat

>>63946700
>mums
Foreigner

>>63946705
ever heard that sometimes you need an outside perspective to see your problems?

The Chinese employed principally fire-lances as a disruptive weapon within pike formation, so there was obvious and established use against light cavalry.

What actually held the Chinese back was a lack of metallurgical skill, they didn't have steel, and that also meant they had mostly pot iron which meant that they typically chose brass or similar alloys to make barrels with. Hence they got Handgonne very early, but never got beyond that, and started making congevere rockets and fire arrows.

And the Chinese had niters, but didn't understand elemental chemistry so were limited to mining it from rich natural sources, of which there were very few. In fact a hallmark of Chinese technology is a lack of understanding or the periodic table, elements, chemistry. They were dark age tier chemists even into modernity.

The chinese get too much credit for inventing black powder, because that's only a fraction of what the "gun" really is. It was British metalurgy, french chemistry, islamic doctrine which combined to create the gun.

>>63946714
>let me tell you about your country

>>63946722
>islamic doctrine
lmao

>>63946734
As you are now, so once was I

The issue the Chinese always had with raiders is that the Chinese were still levying feudal peasant armies of pike in 1500. 4000 years of seasonal peasant/pike warfare.
The Chinese forces were not professional, nor federated with most acting as city guards/bodyguards, and so mobilized at a glacial pace.

The Chinese plan was to hide in square forts, mobilize from within the forts, march out. Like roman city states. But this saw marauders just pillage the countryside, burn crops, move onto the next area without even bothering to assault the Chinese towns. And the marauders could do this perpetually ahead of an assault force.
The pike army couldn't defend the town, it was a field army. And it couldn't force field engagements outside of the town. The Chinese of course had light cavalry but then had to deal with parthian cavalry combat against far greater numbers.

The Chinese built the great wall, mostly to support a federal border force to repel the constant raids. It was less that the wall itself was a barrier and more that troops and reinforcements could be moved along it. and it stopped the warlords each establishing separate defensive lines.

>>63946162
>laying down high volume fire with archers/crossbows
Which is something 16th century handguns can do just as well if not better, certainly at far larger ranges.

>>63946742
I have been subjected to many foreign perspectives on my country. I have only lost respect for suck perspectives.

>>63946763
>if it came from an outsider it must be false
is quite apposite for this thread, because it's exactly the attitude that made China reject modernity and so fall behind the rest of the world in technological development

>>63946735
I didn't stutter. The turks had steel before anyone and it was their nobility who transformed the Chinese pot metal fire lance from a pike support weapon into a self defence/anti knight weapon.

The difference between a 3 inch brass barrel and a 5 inch steel barrel is that one is used from the front of a normation by a disposable peasant, and one is used at 6 meters range by a noble, to try and snipe knights in the enemy formation. or thrown as grenades.

And as soon as that happened it became obvious that it made far more sense to get mercenary arquebussiers trained in only shot to assassinate all the enemy knights, in smaller engagements, and this gave rise to the mercenary bands of the late middle ages who killed half the minor nobility in europe and drove federation of many European city states

Fig:1
Chinese had gunpowder for something like a thousand years and this is what they looked like by 1300, virtually unchanged.
Cast barrel, fired shot, a hand cannon. That was kind the dead end for China.

What held them back? Couldn't forge weld barrels, length of barrel and lifespan limited, poor gas seal, very little accuracy, a front line weapon. They were effective but the use-case was still formation support.

>>63943896
Come and take them nigga-san

Fig 2.
Turkish firepower.
40 ton bombards, field guns, volley guns, aquebus

The barrier here was metallurgy, the Chinese were shit metallurgists, the leap in development was turkish metalurgy.

>>63946700
>it's not just who we think of as the traditional rich, e.g. Bezos et al
It literally is the traditional rich who have the money to control political and regulatory decisions.
e.g. Bezos et al.

Eventually, there just were enough addicted for all those Chinese labs to switch from artificial canabinoids to opiates and get their cut of the business.

>>63946859
>It literally is the traditional rich who have the money to control political and regulatory decisions
When voting was introduced, political power was separated from financial. It gave poorer people a non-financial method of acquiring power and taking control.

Julius Caesar is a fine example of this. The Julii were poor and therefore sidelined in the Roman political scene. Caesar grew in political power through military feats which enabled him to amass enough riches to take a stab at the premier league, so to speak. Yet even then Caesar was still the most junior member of the Triumvirate, the least affluent. Pompey was the richest.
Here's where you'd think that the richer guy can simply bribe the poorer guy to stay in line.
But why would the poorer guy accept bribes, when he has the political power to control the situation? With the power of legislation and the state military in his hands, why should he take bribes, when he can take TRIBUTE?

The rich are often in cahoots with the authorities, yes.
The rich can bribe the authorities, yes.
But the authorities can also regulate and legislate the rich, and do. If they didn't have this power, the rich wouldn't bother trying to bribe them.
Or did you believe that the politicians are fighting the rich altruistically? On behalf of the poor? "Give us power and control and taxes, we'll fight the rich for your sake, no not ours, trust us"

Therefore be wary of giving so much power to the politicians, because you feared the billionaires, that you end up binding yourself to those who wield a different kind of power for their own ends.

>>63946798
The reason for China's military stagnation is the same for its economic & industrial stagnation until the CCP took over. They had a massive population for millennia that both allowed them to simply throw peasant conscripts at enemies while at the same time that massive population allowed them to be autarkic and provided little impetus to innovate or increase productive capacity.

What's the point of innovating your arsenal when your army is simply larger than everyone else on earth combined? what's the point of innovating your military when your neighbours are a bunch of barbarian tribes or tiny fractured city states and princedoms that have zero communication with each other?

Europeans were constantly innovating because they had to; European states were tiny in comparison, had more intricate diplomatic arrangements due to their geography and hence were at war almost all the time. Also inseparable from the military aspect is that the European state evolved to be much more adaptable and efficient than the far eastern states, which is why every country on the planet has a European system of government and law

>>63943893
>both the russians and poles relied extensively on the same kind of bow-and-lance armed all-rounder cavalry units
What a horseshit. Polish regulars didn't use bows since like, 15th century.

>>63946739
this is much later, an age when even backwards European powers like Russia could swarm any enemy with wave after wave of musket armed infantry and win through sheer logistical superiority so long as their troops could trade even in the ballpark of 1:1
>>63944056
infantry had a distinctly secondary role in the armies of the eastern european plain around 1500-1650, which is the time period when the steppe niggers got tamed. the poles only brought theirs essentially as siege trench diggers and the russians had theirs to fight euros, protect baggage and man fortifications, in addition to the siege warfare role

even as late as the late 1600s the russian army was more than 50% cavalry, and that's after they got done with most of their expansion and spent most of their resources fighting in the west

>>63946786
Now that is a lot of hogwash. The rise of late medieval mercenary bands started before the rise of black powder weapon usage.
Just like the spread of black powder weapons had relatively little to so with the ottomans. In fact the Ottomans hired European specialists to teach them in how to make cannons.
And there was no federation of Europe and city states outside a few examples. In fact many of those smaller city states got crushed by the rise of the territorial states who were led by kings and other high nobility.

>>63946907
that's a clique take. No the driver in China was the seasonal mono-culture rice economy, it meant campaigns were seasonal well into the 1500's.
It was more than the Chinese had all their peasants free at the same time, so could drill in the off-season. I say peasant armies but really they were farmers drilled in the off-season. Only disastrous tang tier campaigns used literal peasants.

No it was the lack of metalurgy, the Chinese didn't have proper armor so there was no real driver to develop crossbows and aquebus, chinese troops were still using bronze age armor in 1000AD. And at the same time they could only cast brass barrels so were the fire lance was far more efficient to produce, and they had so many L shaped pike fags that the fire lance was really what they needed anyway.

>>63945687
>The real reason the Chinese were so late adopting guns is the reason why they created the compass and still never sailed the vast seas: Confucianism.
Explain.

>Chase argues that guns were not particularly useful against these opponents.
Guns are what freed Europe from getting invaded by hordes of nomads

>>63946945
my view is more nuanced than most, because I'm looking at when things were strategically significant, not in absolute terms like "when", "where" the focus on which is typical of western platonic thinking.

Powder existed for a very long time but was not particularly significant until 1400 when the the Turkish metallurgists put serious developmental work into developing guns which had range, something the Chinese had neither a good reason or good foundation to do.
And this is when the "handgonne" which you are right, already had spread, already used by mercenaries, became the Aquebus. An that was significant because the Turks were making these in large enough number to arm modern infantry, the janisaries.
And while they were not officially janisaries, the professional black powder infrantryman was the death of the knight.
And Turkish janisaries stomped half of Europe, forcing much closer military cooperation between European city states who's offensive "crusades" started to look a whole lot more like national armies, with more professional soldiers and fewer hereditary nobles.

>>63945687
>Confucianism
retard spotted

>>63946962
anon thinks Confucianism stifled innovation, which is an interpretation only made by those with the most less-than-Wikipedia surface understanding of Confucian values

it's as stupid as claiming the Protestant work ethic stifles innovation

>>63946993
your theory doesn't explain how the Turks achieved unity where the Europeans didn't, and why that unity crumbled

>>63947004
The "bugmen mentality" that infects Chinese and, to a lesser extent, Korean culture ultimately derives from Confucianism. It's the most anti-Faustian philosophy/state religion ever created: anti-individualism, anti-innovation, anti-ambition, anti-disruptionist. It literally exists just so the Chinese state could keep China's giant population in line for centuries. In that, it has been exceptionally successful. Even the Mongols relied on it when they ruled China. But around the 16th to 17th centuries, with the world becoming more "globalized," the cracks began to show. A state driven by Confucian values simply couldn't compete head-to-head with Western states, driven by more pioneering and ambitious schools of thought. And this gap between China and the rest of the world got so vast, that when the inevitable culture clash happened, China got fucked by everyone - INCLUDING Japan, the least Confucian East Asian nation that actually modernized the second the West came knocking at its door.

Tearing down Confucian values was probably one of the only two good things Mao did. The other being killing all the junkies in his country.

>>63947138
like I said, that's a very surface-level read of Confucianism, as surface-level as saying Protestantism = slavish obedience to the Church

>>63946993
I don't understand why you are so fixated on European city states. The Balkans that got conquered by the the Ottomans didn't have them. The campaigns against the Ottomans also weren't led by city states but by kings and other feudal lords.
Like your whole understanding about how Europe was organised seems to be deeply flawed.
The black powder tactics of Western Europe were shaped by how they fought against each other and not the Ottomans.

>>63946831
Orban was Hungarian though.

>>63945563
>Otherwise I would mention the recurved bow (lost tech in Europe)
not really, recurves were present throughout most of europe for much of history, they just weren't the dominant style of bow throughout a lot of it, which I think has more to do with the limited labor pool making the simple self longbow a more compelling option as well as the western european employment of war archers not really requiring anything more complex. And this isn't even taking into account eastern europe.
>>63945584
europeans made pretty extensive use of composite bows for their crossbow prods, and cultures like Japan predominantly used composite bows despite being in very wet climates. The composite bows used by steppe dwellers like the mongols weren't overly suited to such climates, but through the use of laquer or other coverings as well as making bows of a larger, more relaxed shape which consisted mostly of different woods it was absolutely possible to use composite bows in wet climates.

>>63942848 (OP)
why did China go from being innovators in the ancient era to knocking off everything? did the Mongol invasion fuck them up that badly?

>>63945588
And they bitched constantly about the weather fucking their bows up

>>63946758
>Which is something 16th century handguns can do just as well if not better
You're going to outfit the average 16th century footman with a handgun that can fire 1 round every 4 seconds?

>>63946798
>>63946907
>going from no gunpowder weapons to hand cannons in the 120 years following the invention of gunpowder is "stagnation"
Really, what's this obsession?

>>63947511
Government censorship, illiteracy, and the need of all weak dynasties to uphold class-based hierarchies, which stifled the developments that would've otherwise propelled them forwards.
That second one is the real killer, and it's directly grown from the geographic size of their state and the need for all regions' elites and bureaucrats to be capable of communicating with each other, regardless of language. Without this, linguistic reform could've happened much sooner, and the movable type would've been economical enough for widespread use, allowing decentralized knowledge to filter around through large bodies of people, giving them their own "Enlightenment" before the early Republican period.

>>63947625
>1 round every 4 seconds
Because war bows have a fire rate of 15 shots per minute all of a sudden?
Even something as low as 6 shots per minute is not sustainable for war bows.

>>63946774
China never had modernity in the first place and all their few advancements were achieved by accident and despite chinese worldview.

No matter how much you project your inferiority onto your betters you will always be a disgusting hapa mutt that pretends that a culture that founded the modern world can be the same as the one that went into coping overload when a bunch of Westerners tried to teach it geometry, being unable to decide between banning it outright or trying to copy it while pretending it's actually Chinese and was stolen from china by Euros.

What a vile slimy scum you are, you should be flayed alive and be sent back to chinkland where you belong instead of parasitizing and poisoning your host nation with your seething spite.

>>63947144
Again, making up a false equivalence and insulting protestantism won't make confucianism anything but a disgusting deluded anti-intellectual abomination that ignores reality to play pretend while we wuzzing a past they never had on every step of the way. It's quintessentially Chinese like that and the anon is 100% right about it.

Shut up and kys you blind monkey in denial.

>>63947486
>europeans made pretty extensive use of composite bows for their crossbow prods
Sure, but in the northern climates those were much less common too. That's even despite those bows being better protected from the moisture than your typical bow due to heavier and thicker wrapping instead of exposed glued sinew.

>>63948310
>>63948293
>coping overload

>>63946907
>The reason for China's military stagnation is the same for its economic & industrial stagnation until the CCP took over.
You could make money with that act. Not many people can talk out of and type with their ass.

>>63943147
HE NEEDS SOME MILK

>>63946459
>christ is king
actually, reading is king.
religion was massively useful for getting people to learn to read so they could access the knowledge withing books, the bible itself did fuckall to teach people how to chart the oceans and conquer natives with superior tech.
nowadays religion is antiquated and being replaced with more secular, humanist modi operandi that don't suffer from as much dissonance with our current scientific understanding of reality, although the transition is clearly anything but smooth and there's bound to be a lot of stray flattard schizo's and nihilistic hyper-atheists along the way of god's death.

>>63946669
implessive
you'll notice he already has a bunch of links to chinese manufacturing videos at the ready even though nobody is disputing china can build better than india, that wasn't what anyone was saying, he's just that insecure.

>>63948611
>Reeee, he pointed out facts

>>63946831
The tech and techniques to cast tens of tons of bronze predates the gunpowder era by more than one millennium.

>>63942848 (OP)
It's completely wrong. Firearms are what let civilized people truly turn the tables on steppe nomads. There's a reason Russia was at their mercy for centuries, then suddenly dominated them and carved an empire out of lands that once were all owned by steppe nomads.

Likewise it is recorded that firearms the only thing that let the Ottomans repulse Shah Ismail I. If not for Ottoman cannons, he very nearly crushed them in battle.

>>63947511
Mongol conquest of Song effectively ended Chinese dominance in tech if you look at the timelines. Mongol conquests of the Chinese and Muslim world dealt a severe blow to humanity. It was so bad that the polar ice reveals a drop in CO2 levels due to reforestation of previously populous cities turned massacred ruins.

>>63950583
>Chinese dominance in tech
No such thing

>>63950608
I mean... That's what the historians say and I believe in the academics. The rest of the world later fell behind because of the scourge of civilization that is the steppe hordes with the Islamic golden age and the Song golden age being ended incredibly violently. The moment the rennaissance happened in the 14th century, which is slight after the destruction of Song, did Europe permanently surpass both the Islamic world and China. This is supported by historically and can't really be disputed unless you seriously believe racial ideologies.

>>63951080
>unless you seriously believe racial ideologies
scroll up

>>63951080
>which is slight after
CHING CHONG CHANG YOURE A RAPE BABY

>>63951093
said the nigger lmao

>>63946907
>little impetus to innovate or increase productive capacity.
Just like now, China is copying the West, running experiments off Western papers and passing it off as their own research and basically playing an aggressive second place to the west in R+D simply because most of their R+D involves just taking what Americans or Europeans designed and making it as cheap as possible with slave labor. The Chinese government still very much sees people as exploitable resources.

>>63951080
Needham is not a historian but a dirty propagandist whom nobody takes seriously.

Islamic golden age ended before the mongol invasion and was destroyed by muslims themselves.

Racial ideologies are right about china and are correct historically unlike your fanciful cope fantasies courtesy of CCP.

>>63951080
The Islamic Golden Age ended because Muslims kept killing off all their doctors since they thought they were necromancers, amongst other infighting.

>>63951110
Ok.

>>63951110
Oh and renaissance of the 14th century was preceded by the rennaissnces of the 12th and to a lesser extent 9th and 10th centuries.

>>63951114
They also killed their rational thinkers because the western doctrine of the world existing in cause and effect relationships in accordance to natural laws that can be studied and understood directly contradicts the teachings of islam where everything is hanging on the will of Allah and all knowledge originates from quran and mohammed

>>63951129
>They also killed their rational thinkers
China also did this. The first thing Qin Shi Huang did when he took power was burn books and slaughter every single philosopher he could find. Warring States China and the Spring and Autumn period was greek level in terms of philoosphy. The moment Liu Bang established the Han dynasty, he too slaughtered Confucians. I cant be arsed to read up more on it but im sure plenty of Chinese emperors killed in large numbers their best thinkers. Everything went down hill the moment Chu and Qin consolidated power.

>>63951287
this
that's why Mao and the CCP take so readily to the Communist way of doing things; it's all done before in history

>>63945418
Europeans didn't make heavy muzzleloading cannon until the 16th century because they didn't know how to cast iron.

Europeans invented weaker breach loading cannon made from bronze and reinforced wrought iron with hoops because they couldn't cast iron required for big muzzle loaders.

China had cast iron in 500 BC.

>>63945515
China was aware of multiple technologies like chain mail but deliberately did not adopt them

>>63945526
Russia only freed itself from the Golden Horde after Tamerlane devastated the Horde with his invasions.

After "freeing" itself, Russia still lost multiple battles to Crimean Khanate for centuries before annexing them 1783

>>63945240
Jurchens were sedentary farmers and not steppe nomads.

>>63947511
>>63951093
>>63945545
>>63945557
China conquered and raped steppe nomads multiple times before Genghis Khan

Han dynasty China conquered and raped the Xiongnu in Mongolia, and forced the surviving Xiongnu to flee for their lives to Europe where they became the Huns and raped your ancestors.

Tang dynasty China conquered the Eastern Turkic Khaganate in Mongolia in 630 and ruled it as Protectorate general to pacify the east

Tang dynasty China then conquered the Western Turkic Khaganate in Central Asia and ruled it as Protectorate General to Pacify the West.

This caused the Turks to flee west to Europe where they then raped Hungary and helped the Mongol Crimean Khanate do rape raids in Austria

The Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Ottoman Turks are all steppe nomads who raped you.

>>63946966
>>63945526
>>63943999

Ottomans and Mongol Crimean Khanate were steppe nomads who literally used guns (muskets and cannon) to conquer land in Eurupe, dumbasses. They conquered Byzantium and Hungary with cannon and muskets

The Mongol Crimean Khanate used muskets and bows when helping Ottomans conquer Hungary and invade Austria
>>63946746
China didn't use peasant levies dumbass.

Tang, Song, Ming and Qing all used professional armies with career soldiers


Ming dynasty army was made out of professional soldiers from military households, stationed military colonies (tuntian)

Your dumbass is confusing the professional military farming colonies with peasant farms.

>The Chinese plan was to hide in square forts, mobilize from within the forts, march out. Like roman city states.

More bullshit, the early Ming emperors like Hongwu and Yongle sent armies all the way into the steppe of Outer Mongolia to fight the Northern Yuan in the Mongol's own home.

The Ming also sent military expeditions into Manchuria.

>>63946638
>and they behave similarly with women too, the

Vietnamese, Koreans and Japanese men are infamous for pajeet behaviour with women like chikan on public transport in Japan to semen terrorism in South Korea (masturbating onto women's bodies or belingings)

Ugly Korean men like Joji Obara and ugly Japanese men like Issei Sagawa were obsessed with raping white women

Korean men literally fetishose white girls and call them "white horse".

>>63945584
Northern Chinese are taller than both Mongols and Southern Europrans.

Hungarians and Byzantines got raped by Ottoman Turks and Crimean khanate.

>>63946907
>They had a massive population for millennia that both allowed them to simply throw peasant conscripts at enemies

China didn't use peasant conscripts

The Tang, Song, Ming Qing armies were all professional soldiers.

>>63946831
Those are bronze retard, China knew how to caste heavy bronze but big cannons are useless against ramped earth walls, which were used in Chinese cities.

>>63946798

China started using weapons for gunpowder in the 10th century AD.

China developed multiple other weapons with gunpowder,like the first rockets and fire lances and bombs, in addition to poison gas gunpowder.

They didn't only use them for handcannons.

>>63946722
China has cast iron retard.

>>63946421
>>63946401
Both Ming China and Qing China regularly manufactured and used matchlocks with springs, dumbasses. All Chinese army units had matchlocks with bows


They continued using other weapons like bows and arrows alongside muskets because you can't fire muskets in rainy weather, nor can you fire then over walls unlike arrowsm

Also Ming China was aware of flintlocks but deliberately did not adopt them because matchlocks were simpler

However even flintlock springs aren't difficult for primitivrs to make.

Miao in southwest China and Montagnards in Central Highlands of Vietnam adopted snaphaunce flintlocks centuries ago and manufacture their own flinrlocks by hand.

They ate primitive tribal iron age people.

>>63946303
>>63946225
You don't need screws to manufacture flintlocks you dumb motherfuckers

Miao (Hmong) and Montagnards made their own flintlocks for centuries just with glue and pins.

They glued the flint into the holder and pinned the lock plate into the muskets

Ming China knew how to make flintlocks, they are mentioned in military books, but deliberately only adoptrd matchlocks because they were cheaper.

>>63953702
>Also Ming China was aware of flintlocks but deliberately did not adopt them because matchlocks were simpler

>However even flintlock springs aren't difficult for primitivrs to make.

>Miao in southwest China and Montagnards in Central Highlands of Vietnam adopted snaphaunce flintlocks centuries ago and manufacture their own flinrlocks by hand.

>They are primitive tribal iron age people.

>>63946215
China used gunpowder for rockets, fire lances, handcannon, poison smoke and bombs.

>>63946171
Ming China defeated the Portuguese and Dutch and Japanese in every war

Ming China defeated the Portuguese at Tamão in 1521 and Veniaga in 1522.

Ming China defeated the Dutch in Penghu (Pescadores) in 1622-1624, Liaoluo bay in 1633 and Taiwan in 1661-1662

Ming China defeated Japan in the Imjin war (battle of Noryang)

Tang dynasty China conquered and destroyed multiple steppe empires in Mongolia including the Turkic khaganates, Xueyantuo khaganate and Uyghur Khaganate

Qin dynasty China ethnically cleansed the Xiongnu (Huns) from Inner Mongolia ans Han dynasty China destroyed the Xiongnu in Outer Mongolia.

>>63946138
>China didn't have one tenth of the technology, philosophy, science, engineering, martial prowess or art that Greece and Rome have achieved.

Greece and Rome's writing system came from the Middle East (Lebanon)

Greek mathematics (base 60, 360 degrees in a circle) again came from the Middle East (Babylon in Iraq)

All Greeks and Roman's were converted to a Middle Eastern religion

All Europeans use pajeet origin numerals.

China has its own indigenous writing system, numerals (rod numerals) and developed its indigenous mathematics and philosophy in the Zhou dynasty, not stealing them from the fertile crescent

Chinese discovered negative numbers and Yang Hui triangle (pascal triangle) before Greeks and Romans.

>>63942848 (OP)
>>63943001
Ming China directly obtained muskets ans breach loading cannons from captured Portuguese afte defeating them at Tamao in 1521 and Veniaga in 1522, and reverse engineered them.

Portuguese came to Tanegashima in Japan on a Chinese pirate ship in 1542.

A Japanese blacksmith gave his own daughter Wakasa to the Portuguese to teach him out of build the musket.

Portugal the defeated the Japanese at the battle of Fukuda Bay.

Ming China also obtained Ottoman Turkish muskets and folangji (prangi) breech loaders from the overland trade route to the west.

>>63943050
>>63943893
Steppe nomads like the Golden horde heirs Crimean Khanate, Kazakh Khanate and the Ottoman Turks all used muskets and cannons against the Russians, Hungarians and Austrians

Crimean Khanate and Mongol Horde archers would used muskets with their bows and arrows

The Mongol empire is the on that introduced gunpowder weapons from China to the Middle East and Europe.

Mongols used poison gunpowder at the battles of Legnica and Mohi in Europe.

Han Chinese officers and soldiers were with the Mongol army in Europe and the Middle East, and they used gunpowder weapons.

>>63946257
>>63945545
>>63951093
China conquered and raped steppe nomads multiple times before Genghis Khan

Han dynasty China conquered and raped the Xiongnu in Mongolia, and forced the surviving Xiongnu to flee for their lives to Europe where they became the Huns and raped your ancestors.

Tang dynasty China conquered the Eastern Turkic Khaganate in Mongolia in 630 and ruled it as Protectorate general to pacify the east

Tang dynasty China then conquered the Western Turkic Khaganate in Central Asia and ruled it as Protectorate General to Pacify the West.

This caused the Turks to flee west to Europe where they then raped Hungary and helped the Mongol Crimean Khanate do rape raids in Austria

The Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Ottoman Turks are all steppe nomads who raped you.

Ming China defeated the Portuguese and Dutch and Japanese in every war

Ming China defeated the Portuguese at Tamão in 1521 and Veniaga in 1522.

Ming China defeated the Dutch in Penghu (Pescadores) in 1622-1624, Liaoluo bay in 1633 and Taiwan in 1661-1662

Ming China defeated Japan in the Imjin war (battle of Noryang)

Tang dynasty China conquered and destroyed multiple steppe empires in Mongolia including the Turkic khaganates, Xueyantuo khaganate and Uyghur Khaganate

Qin dynasty China ethnically cleansed the Xiongnu (Huns) from Inner Mongolia ans Han dynasty China destroyed the Xiongnu in Outer Mongolia.

Modern whites are all rapebabies and mutts.

The Carthiginians in Spain, Italy and Sicily.

Moors in Al-Andalus in Spain, Sicily and Italy.

Avars and Huns from Crimea to Hungary, northern Italy, Germany, Netherlands and Denmark.

Bulgars in Italy

Golden Horde Mongols, Crimean Khanate, Ottoman Turks in Hungary, Austria.

All of them mass raped your ancestors and made you into mutts.

Amerimutts are majority of German, Italian and Hispanic descent

All have rape genes from Attila the Hun's army, Almanzor's Moors and Carthage.

None of your projections against Chinese will change these facts.

>>63946257
>>63945545
>>63951093

>>63945501
>During the siege of Fort Zeelandia, the Chinese took many Dutch prisoners, among them the Dutch missionary Antonius Hambroek and his wife, and two of their daughters. Koxinga sent Hambroek to Fort Zeelandia to persuade the garrison to surrender; if unsuccessful, Hambroek would be killed upon return. Hambroek went up to the Fort, where two of his other daughters still remained, and urged the garrison to not surrender. He subsequently returned to Koxinga's camp and was beheaded. Additionally, a rumor was spread among the Chinese that the Dutch were encouraging the native Taiwan aboriginals to kill Chinese. In retaliation, Koxinga ordered the mass execution of Dutch male prisoners,[33] mostly by crucifixion and decapitation[34] with a few women and children also being killed. The remainder of the Dutch women and children were enslaved, with Koxinga taking Hambroek's teenage daughter as his concubine (she was described by the Dutch commander Caeuw as "a very sweet and pleasing maiden", while other Dutch women were sold to Chinese soldiers to become their (secondary) wives or mistresses.[35][36][37] The daily journal of the Dutch fort recorded that "the best were preserved for the use of the commanders, and the rest were sold to the common soldiers. Happy was she that fell to the lot of an unmarried man, being thereby freed from vexations by the Chinese women, who are very jealous of their husbands."[38] The Chinese took Dutch women as slave concubines and wives and they were never freed: in 1684 some were reported to be still living. In Quemoy a Dutch merchant was contacted with an arrangement to release the prisoners which was proposed by a son of Koxinga's but it came to nothing.[39][40][41]