Why exactly did the US lose the war in Vietnam?

>>63948256 (OP)
Stopped fighting it.

>>63948263

>>63948256 (OP)
stopped fighting in it after the vietcong were completely exhausted, refused to invade the north for political reasons, signed a peace treaty, left the country completely, leaving their proxy state to fend for themselves, and the north, after 2 whole years of rebuilding, finally took the south without any american interference.
and after all that, in 2025, they're an ally in the region, and allow capitalist practices.

>>63948256 (OP)
Refused to do what was necessary to win it.

>>63948256 (OP)
Johnson and McNamara were never interested in winning it.

>>63948256 (OP)
couldn't defeat the PAVN/NLF, next question?

>>63948274
>refused to invade the north for political reasons
The "political reasons" were they were shit scared of chinese/russian intervention and a replay of the Korean War (which they also lost)

>>63948294
How many times are you people going to re-litigate the Korean War? The UN objective to maintain a sovereign southern government was achieved and the Communist forces goal of unifying the peninsula under the Northern government was not achieved.

I wouldn’t post again if I were you, getting caught outside the firewall has hefty consequences from your bug overlords.

>>63948256 (OP)
because there was no real war goal to begin with, just a series of political moves made to try and avoid political embarrassment that comes with propping up an unpopular regime.

frankly the better move would have been hijacking ho chi minh's whole thing after WW2, reframing it as vietnam's 'new deal' or 'great society', styled like FDR. could ride the waves of turning a communist into a capitalist by just reframing it as the vietnamese basically doing nordic style shit instead of american. minh seemed like he was pretty down for that but the retardation of using the fucking military to solve diplomatic problems began there and hasn't stopped since.

refusal to genocide civilians

>>63948362
>5 million dead civilians
>we dindu nuffin we good boys
>10 thousand dead civilians in ukraine
>Russia is a genocidal state!!!
Hilarious

imo, based on the Ken Burns doc, the north had similar advantages to pakistan in the afghanistan war ie an "out of bounds" area where they could retreat to and regroup

that being said does anybody have info on the use of artillery during Vietnam?

>>63948256 (OP)
Bet on the wrong horse. The south was horribly politically dysfunctional.

>>63948256 (OP)
Political fuckery. If the US constantly hit North Veitnams airbases, ports, canals and hit the rice fields with Agent Orange Veitnam would have folded within the year. Never, EVER, let politicians dictate warfare.

>>63948408
Ken Burns documentary was gr8, but i honestly felt like they should've talked more about the North's Air Force.

Basically a bunch of guy with Mig-17's and Mig-21 fighting state of the art Phantoms, Thunderchiefs and Skyhawks. And they managed to shoot down a fair bit for an air-force in their position.

Would've loved to see their veterans talking about their operations.

>>63948401
>5 million dead civilians
Yeah thats what happens when commie death squads are left to run unchecked.

>>63948256 (OP)
because the under lining political issue of South Vietnam being an unstable shithole was never fixed

>>63948308
>How many times are you people going to re-litigate the Korean War?
Until you stop lying about it and accept your failure.
>The UN objective to maintain a sovereign southern government was achieved
If that was the UN objective why did the US push to the Yalu river? Whatever the purported objective and casus belli, the real objective as demonstrated by America's actions was the destruction of North Korea as a political entity and if possible pushing on into China itself.
If the US objective was just to safeguard South Korea, then there's zero reason to push past the 38th parallel at all.
>But that was MacArthur waaaaah
Nigger, generals don't set strategic goals at that level. That's exclusively reserved for heads of state.
Stop fucking coping and accept that America just isn't very good at war and loses more often than it wins.

>>63948457
>if possible pushing on into China itself
source

>>63948440
So true sister

>>63948483
ur a gook

>>63948462
it came to him in a dream

>>63948452
>>63948413
So the north had it better politically? But they're Literal fucking commies

>>63948362
>refusal to genocide civilians
there's mutts that believe this?

>>63948462
Recce parties literally crossed the Yalu. Stalin wasn't the only one who followed the probing with the bayonet doctrine. It was pretty clear what the US intentions were.

>>63948490
I'm slovak, you're most likely Hispanic bit none of that matters. The US and its allies are known for deliberately targeting civilians (even their own kek, see operation gladio and the Baghdad bombinhs) and there's no way for you to spin this

>>63948294
>korean war
>which they also lost
we could've had a good discussion about the actual reasons why the US chose not to steamroll the north, but you just immediately revealed yourself as a retard.
china lost, north korea lost
>B-BUT WE DIDN'T LOSE THE WHOLE PENINSULA
norks attacked the south, lost, got pushed north, chinks took advantage of macarthur's retardation, kept pushing after they'd retaken the north, and south korea ended up with more land in the end, china and north korea both took far more casualties, and also murked the future mao dynasty.

you know this, you've been told this, but you have such a desperate need to insist that the US lost that so you can parade the idea in your mind that you too could make them "lose", so much so that you've lost all sight of reality and keep repeating yourself.

>>63948510
Another coping retard. See >>63948457

>>63948457
>why did the US push into the yalu river
bonus points, but it was never part of the objective no matter how much you cope.
if you make that argument, you also make the argument that china's goal was the complete removal of the US from the peninsula since they kept pushing past the original border, that argument doesn't favour china as the US lost less people and south korea ended up gaining land instead of losing it.

>>63948256 (OP)
The usual: dogshit theory of victory, no moral imperative, technocratic leadership, and an enemy that didn't suffer from the same level of bullshit. McNamara is enough of a reason.

>>63948512
i see, yes, >>63948457 IS a coping retard, well observed.

>>63948256 (OP)
They could've won had they painted the South Orange and left.
The US didn't want a unified Vietnam, but most of the Vietnamese were rather okay with it, so total genocide was the only realistic solution.

>>63948401
>Japan
>civilians
>civilians in a total war
Gotta admit, this whole picture is a proper bait. 8/10

>>63948280
I mean that's one way to condense the doctorate on 'Managerialism' and it's consequences.

I already knew McNamara was a problem but then I watched Fog of War when it was in cinemas, and holy shit. Reality never hit the sides with that guy.

>>63948516
>as the US lost less people
The English lost less people than the French in the hundred years war. Doesn't mean they won it. Pointless metric to consider.
>you also make the argument that china's goal was the complete removal of the US from the peninsula
At the most they were trying to secure warm water ports, my mutty friend. But beyond that, that's simply whataboutism.
>bonus points
Lmao, I love how there is no real argument against the point the US pushed to the Yalu, so they just start trolling and coping and whatabouting and screeching. Pathetic. But then mutts are the pathetic weirdos who invented cuckold pornography.
>>63948521
Not an argument.

>>63948493
which should give you an idea of how much of a shitshow South Vietnam was, you can just take a look at how many coups it had during the war, same applied to the KMT but on crack

>>63948401
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

>Killing members of the group;
>Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
>Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Russians not only are responsible for at least two of these points in Ukraine, with the Russian leadership and media openly admitted the intent to destroy. This is pretty much a slam dunk case of attempted genocide. The death toll isn't comparable because we don't know how many Ukrainians are buried in mass graves, and Russians suck at war.

Russians are the niggers of Europe and will always behave accordingly.

>>63948534
"Killing too many of them to lose" was the plan and believed achieved outcome. Then the Tet offensive happened.

Also in what world is "Apply chemical weapons, retreat" victory?

>>63948294
You’ve still got a little more of the century of humiliation that Mao started to survive through, chinsect.

>>63948558
>warm water ports
>korea

>>63948564
>russians suck at war even doe they managed to keep my shithole subjugated for centuries
It was the Russians who defeated napoleon.
It was the Russians who defeated hitler

>>63948593
>It was the Russians who defeated hitler
lmao

>>63948507
>slovak
Ew

>>63948558
>>63948558
>pointless metric to consider
if you're a delusional contrarian who insists on calling the korean US victory a loss, sure.
>B-BUT WE ONLY LOST THE ARMY NEEDED TO TAKE TAIWAN AND ALSO MAO'S DYNASTY
that one might've been a win for the chink in the long run, but it sure wasn't for mao longdong at the time kek.
>at most they were trying to secure warm water ports
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
right, the US was just making it's way towards the river to find trade routes. you realize no matter which way you spin this delusional narrative, it can be mirrored and applied to the other side and the US comes out on top every time, right?
>my mutty friend
i'm not even an american, just not delusional, and again, calling someone a mutt while shilling for one of the most mutted populations on the planet is not a good look.
>i love how there's no real argument
there doesn't need to be, that's what went down, their only real objective was retaking the south, that the north was so weak they could just push right through was a nice boon the US attempted to take advantage of.
>so they just start trolling and coping
good description of what you've been doing yes, you're putting on a brave face but you're clearly extremely butthurt that nobody buys your narrative and you just have to keep repeating it to yourself like a mantra to keep faith.
>talking about cuckold pornography in the context of the ASIAN CONTINENT
you're so naive i'm almost confident you're below the age of 17, either that or you're a legit yellow bugman and this is blatant projection.

>>63948493
The president antagonized Buddhism in a country of 90% Buddhists. Then it's coup every other week.

>>63948558
>warm water ports
I’m always impressed how often this phrase identifies over-propagandized thirdies.

>>63948493
United, nationalist commies.

Diem was installed by the French on their way out and was a die hard Catholic who persecuted the Buddhist majority. Everyone fucking hated him.

>>63948593
no, it was the winter and a bunch of other approaching european armies that defeated napoleon.
and it was the allies (excluding Russia who got carried) who defeated hitler, russia attempted to ally with hitler, got backstabbed, and then had to get dragged kicking and screaming through the war with a torrent of western aid, because of their blatant inefficiency and disregard for human life (which we can see today, they have learned absolutely nothing from.)

>>63948558
> warm water ports
Vatnig spotted. Opinion discarded.

>>63948646
It’s like a shibboleth but in reverse

>>63948256 (OP)
The point of war is to beat the enemy until the only thing they can do is hold up a white flag. It's a lot of killing, and it's ugly and inhumane. When the US doesn't do that, they lose or stalemate wars.

>>63948256 (OP)
They thought they could buy loyalty and family ties. Or brute force them. They were wrong. The French made the same mistake. So did the Dutch in South Africa and Indonesia. The Brits around the globe. And the Belgians in the Congo.

It's also what necked the Germans in WWII. The landing in Sicily, facilitated by Cosa Nostra was the real turning point of the war. D-Day was just an unnecessary PR-stunt in comparison.

>>63948401
>Well we didn't murder that many civilians so we the good guys!

Here is an idea you ziggerfaggot. How about you wouldn't murder any civilians? If USA goes around fucking up countries it doesn't mean that russia has to do the same you fucking idiot

>>63948558
>warm water ports
>in Korea
>for China, the nation which has an assload of warm water coastline and ports already
Wow you're retarded. Like, we knew this already, but it is amazing to see just HOW retarded you are.

>>63948507
>I'm Slovak
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/nana.13053
>The exact number of victims remains unknown, but the widespread occurrence of rape during the Red Army's advance into Czech lands can be estimated from available reports. This included areas ranging from remote villages to major urban centres. The city of Brno with a large proportion of the German population, in the southeastern part of the Czech lands, was among the first major cities to be conquered by the Red Army at the end of April 1945, with members of the Second Ukrainian Front involved, displaying discipline in many instances (Naimark, 1995: 71). A few days later, an anonymous testimony captured details of Soviet soldiers looting shops, with local Czechs even assisting them. The affidavit continues, ‘Red Army soldiers forcibly broke into another household and raped another woman who had a small child with her. The terrified child began to cry. The Red Army soldiers grabbed the child by the legs, struck him on the ground, and continued their atrocities. Elsewhere, the soldiers broke into the shelter, drove the men out, and raped all the women

>>63948483
>may lie
Funny how the genocide of the Montagnard, Hmong, the death squads who murdered tens of thousands during the Tet Offensive and the illegal invasion and conquest of Cambodia and Laos and the installation of puppet governments are totally equal to a single incident that was condemned by the US military.
Funny how the only way the North could "reunify" Veitnam was through blatant conquest supported by 17 different nations.

>>63948811
>that was condemned by the US military
>condemned
"Twenty-six soldiers were charged with criminal offenses, but only Lieutenant William Calley Jr., the leader of 1st Platoon in C Company, was convicted. He was found guilty of murdering 22 villagers and originally given a life sentence, but served three-and-a-half years under house arrest after his sentence was commuted."

>>63948494
>whaaaaa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong_and_People%27s_Army_of_Vietnam_use_of_terror_in_the_Vietnam_War
Here are some examples.
>muh Buddhists
February 2: VC sacked and burned the Buddhist temple at Phuoc Thanh, Tây Ninh Province. They stabbed to death 17-year old Phan Van Ngoc, who tried to stop them.
>muh women and children
March 22: A truck carrying 20 girls was dynamited on the Saigon-Vũng Tàu road. After the explosion, VC opened fire on survivors, killing two and wounding 10.
February 20: VC threw four hand grenades into a crowded village theater near Can Tho, killing 24 women and children. In all, 108 persons were killed or injured.
>muh proletariat
February 14: Two mines exploded beneath a bus and a three-wheeled taxi on a road near Tuy Hòa, killing 48 farm laborers and injuring seven others.
September 3: Shortly after polls open in Tuy Hòa the VC detonated a bomb hidden in a polling place. Three voters were killed and 42 wounded. Election morning attacks, including long-range shellings, claimed 48 lives.
>muh minorities
December 5: in the Đắk Sơn massacre two VC battalions attacked Đắk Sơn village and killed 114 to 252 Montagnard villagers.
And these are the RECORDED ones.

>>63948867
>and these are the recorded ones
It occurs to me: The reason we learn about western crimes is because western people prefer to be accountable. Not so in the global south, where everything that can be gotten away with stops existing immediately, or else becomes a national holiday.

>>63948507
>any of this
According to the 2022 American Community Survey, the racial composition of the United States in 2022 was:[151][152]

Race Population (2022 est.) Share of total
population
Total 333,287,550 100%
One race 291,505,262 87.5%
White 202,889,020 60.2%

>>63948890
>mutt checks the 'white' box in the survey
>this proves i'm white

>>63948832
>was put on trial and convicted
Unlike the North, they give them medals for that.

>>63948256 (OP)
The Post-Watergate Congress not only refused to allow the new President to uphold the nation's obligations under the treaty (to the point of threatening a constitutional crisis), they made it illegal to support the South in any way. In a way, the US "lost" in the November 1974 elections.

>>63948534
You know the point was to prop up South Vietnam you dumb cunt?

>>63948907
North didn't like VC much. VC are from the South.

>>63948256 (OP)
The enemy within.

>>63948907
name one VC leader that did.
CIA killed most of the VC leadership. then NVA took command of VC troops.

>>63948328
We only really got involved due to France, and by that point it was kinda too late to try that.

>>63948457
>Generals don't set strategic goals at that level, that's reserved for heads of state.
Yeah that's why he was removed you clown, go eat your sewer oil fried rat rice and think about the consequences of your stupidity.

>>63948885
>stops existing
The Vietnamese government denied the city of Hue a memorial day or even a monument for the Hue Massacre, at the same time celebrating the "revolutionary zeal" in "prosecuting the enemies of the people". Family members who EVEN TRY to put flowers or other memorial items are arrested and either fined or imprisoned.
Can you even imagine how fucking evil that is? "It never happened.... But if it did it was justified and YOU'RE the criminal for remembering!" There is a reason visiting US veterans are treated well in the South, they remember how they were treated by them vs their "liberators".