Since the M7 has been such a debacle, what's next?
Are we really going to see M4s on Mars? Or is it possible that there'll be a paradigm shift at some point?

>>63957349 (OP)
We will have ARs for 2000 years, like swords existed from antiquity to the industrial revolution. There's only so many ways to reliably shoot a small piece of metal at someone.

Nothing will change, you won't get a futuristic gun, warfare will only get more boring, with information warfare and blind drone strikes doing 90% of the work while you wait to get blown up in a trench.

>>63957367
Simply not true. Electronic triggers, caseless and polycased ammo, explosive rounds, airburst rounds, self guiding rounds, and self ranging scopes are already conceptually extant. It's only a matter or time (less time than you think) until these technologies are ubiquitously incorporated into firearms.

>>63957367
>AR's
>2000
>everyone getting rid of them
AK's and M14's on fucking Mars.

>>63957349 (OP)
Guided rounds are probably going to be a thing in the coming decades.

Firearm tech has pretty well plateaued. Optics and ammunition? Not so.

>>63958757
the AK platform isn't going to make it past 2040, when their presses are finally clapped out, and the M14 is already dead

>>63958745
Self ranging scopes, maybe. Definitely fancier electronic ones.
Explosive rounds, that's got a niche.

Electronic triggers, caseless ammo, self guiding rounds? Nah, the issue is that they're not going to deliver enough benefit for people to bother.

You're posting on here with a QWERTY keyboard.
You could type faster, better, easier if you switched to COLEMAK. Half the logistics issues with ammunition don't exist because it's free to change your keyboard layout and there's no supply chain to worry about.

Nobody fucking does it because nobody gives a fuck about the benefits compared to the cost.
Most "futuristic" tech is the same. Nobody fucking uses chainswords because powering and maintaining is a pain and you just get shot before it matters. Instead we now have guys who are dedicated wire snippers to disable cables controlling drones.

>>63958815
New ones are already being made, like the new AKs made by WBP in Poland and they're really good

>>63959147
new presses I mean

>>63959151
didn't even know, cool

It'll probably be AR-shaped until you come up with railguns in small arms size or lasers. Then they'll just make a fucking AR shape for them too unless the design fundamentally requires a dramatically different shape (location of the magazine, length, ect).

Eugene stoner won, that's all there is to it.

>>63957349 (OP)

>2100
>nearly 70 years have passed since America collapsed into civil war due to everyone being a retard
>the hill tribes of Appalachia and the Sierra Nevada continue to fight the Intergalactic Peacekeeping Forces of Beta Centauri with century-old M4 Carbines that were first used in the Kosovo War

>>63957349 (OP)
What are the limitations of the M4 as it is? The biggest problem to solve with small arms in general is the number of rounds fired required for a kill. So the big advances will be in smart scopes, target tracking, lightweight rounds with longer range and flat trajectory. But I lot of this has to do with the psychology of the soldier and not the gun itself. So neurological implants like neurolink to remove fear and improve focus for soldiers will improve accuracy vastly.

I can guarantee the future will hold nothing but AR18 style rifles, with AR15 features, with the focus being on new intermediate and full power cartridge chamberings and optics. Ar15s/M4s won't be seen in much use by modern militaries with any kind of money or production. I can also guarantee we'll see M4s/AR15s/M16s/whateveryoufagswantocallit being used until firearms themselves are obsolete. They're perfect at being OK rifles. I don't know why everyone gets all crybaby piss pants over the attempts to phase out the AR15s. I would think you dipshits would welcome new platforms being introduced and tested, but then you can't shitpost your faggy opinion on the rifle if something better comes along I guess.
Anyway, show me on the doll where the M4/M7 touched you.

>>63959208
>Anyway, show me on the doll where the M4/M7 touched you.
the argument against the M7 tho is that its not much of an improvement or one at all. Rather more of a bandaid solution to a problem we've found doesn't exist

>>63958745
>Electronic triggers
This will be adopted for all the wrong reasons. The trigger will uplink with your kit, which is connected with the squad's sat-uplink, giving command a count of every round you use.

Meaning you're gonna be grilled by your CO for missing shots more than you should, and how "you're the reason this military spends millions on ammunition, blah blah blah, quit missing you dumbass."

>>63959206
>flat trajectory, accuracy

If the max practical range of the rifle of a soldier taking fire is the MPBR, yes this will be huge. The max range will be determined by some fixed time of flight beyond which the bullet will drop by more than half a torso height. Set BC to infinity and you get a minimum velocity for whatever range you want MPBR to be. But really only possible with higher velocities, so better propellants need to be developed.

>Smart optics
Still can’t measure and correct for wind, so a first round hit is still a matter of luck.

>neuralink to remove fear
Oh boy. Sounds like a paradigm shift where everyone can be programmed to be a kamikaze grunt. Anyone here wanna game out what a war looks like if nobody on the battlefield fears death?

>>63959208
>AR18 are peak rifle
It sure does seem that way. I’m just some guy with a not-so-good imagination so to me it seems the AR18 is basically the crab of rifles, it’s been decades since its developement and we still don’t have anything fundamentally different, so that’s probably a pretty good sign that it near perfection. Any product category has a final form like this at the end of its trajectory beyond which any change in any direction renders it LESS adapted to whatever it needs to do. The AR18 seems to be that, more or less. About the only thing I can add is that rifles ought to incorporate constant recoil and quad stack mags, but that’s still just an AR18, just with longer bolt travel and a wider magwell.

>>63958844
> Explosive rounds

Cool idea. Renders kinetic energy obsolete. Just stick an explosive charge in a tiny .204 VLD and blast it at like 5000fps. 1000rd combat load.

>>63958844
Except typing speed isn't actually a problem. It's not the limiting factor in how fast you can write shit on a computer.

Meme layouts like dvorak and colemak don't even let you type faster anyways.

>>63959224
I wasn't defending the M7, just pointing out that firearm development is a sore point on this board, regardless of rifle. Obviously, bullshit will happen that *hopefully* is a flash in the pan. Doesn't mean you have to resist changes and new developments because "muh mforr".
>>63959283
I wouldn't say the AR18 pattern rifles are peak, just a jack of all trades, master of few. They tend to be cheaper, easy to produce, a pretty familiar system, and easily modified designs that can be suited to whatever needs and do it just fine, so long as it's competently done.

>>63959367
the AR18’s status as a jack of all trades though is kind of what makes it a crab. It’s just a really versatile and good set of compromises

>>63959409
Crab, sure but crabs aren't peak. Just easy and work.

>>63958745
you're literally just describing upgrades to an AR. It will still be an AR. just like a sword made from steel with a balanced grip and crossguard is still just a sword, same as an old piece of shit iron gladius.

>>63957349 (OP)
With all the drones and body armor about, I'm curious if we'd shit to relatively anti-armor but light as possible once they hit the bare minimum. But IMO, what we'd use is whatever lowest bidder corporate crap procurement gets.

>>63959367
To explain why conservative gun folk are butt hurt on the M7:

The M4 is good as it is, but If the Military had intelligence, we would prefer them to invest in upgrading the M4 to a mid length gas system and a 16 inch barrel, for reliability, parts maintenence and round velocity respectively

Sence the military is autistic weaboos; we hope they would compromise with keeping 5.56 or upgrade it to a intermediate 6mm round, and have a short stroke piston system Ar 18 with a 16 inch barrell
Like the Sig Sauer MCX lite 5.56
Instead, he M7's bullet of 137 or 140 grain 7mm pill with velocities up to 3000 fps in a thirteen inch barrel, with 80,000 PSI in the chamber
That erodes barrels fasts, cause logistics to go up in price, and time
Wars are won on logistics, not recent developed tactics

Conservative gun folks are mad that the military is concerned of new technology that influences a change in tactics, not in the change of logistics, if the military would focus on the economy of the M7 round and use their common sence, they would realize small arms are not the common threat, and Big ordinance, drones and bombers are the big threats, not politicizing soldiers to give them the best arms cause of political optics
Which in the long run overburdens them, and makes them be out maneuvered by our adversaries, despite what the technology promises

Peace, and I hope this helps

>>63959414
You just described peak, anon.
>>63959283
>Quad-stack mags
My boner is hesitant, but intrigued

This seems like a decent place to ask.
I'm working on a sci fi setting for a novel and for tabletop, set primarily in a colony that is sort of the space equivalent of a very niche petro-state. Not a big fish outside of their own planet but with a strong focus on self-reliance and propped up by extraplanetary trade / investment.
It was clear to me that this colony needs to use some futuristic derivative of either the AR18 or AK, or perhaps even both, but I'm having trouble deciding which would be more appealing.
Any thoughts?

>>63957349 (OP)
Rifle obselete mogged by drone

>>63964630
If you're going for a futuristic vibe go for a bullpup or a p90, the whole
>scifi hitech vibes but use shitty old guns
trope is worn out

>>63964720
Well I don't want them to be shitty, far to the contrary, I just want them to be practical and relatively low-maintenance as well as cool.
My only hard requirement is no fucking picatinny in the future. I'm beyond exhausted of that lego brick shit.
>Bullpups / P90
I'm using weirdo ammo, so that part is covered.
P90s and top / bottom loaders in general seem like a meme. Is there something I'm missing?
Bullpups are pretty overplayed / overhyped, no? I only have experience with conventional layouts but I hear heinous things about bullpups.

>>63964756
Just my 2 cents:

I'd go with something battle rifle sized, but skeletonized. FAL/CETME is still iconic without being obviously Burgered. Bullpups of the future will have the same shitty ergos as bullpups do now, but if there's anything close to powered armor in your universe, recoil management is accounted for and so is weight of magazines. No reason to refute the almighty 7.62 and it's effect downrange.

>>63957349 (OP)
>has been such a debacle
It's flat out one of the worst service rifles ever. Rivalling FAMAS, L85A1 and INSAS. Who thought making a big heavy rifle that hurts to carry, hurts to shoot, breaks when you reload it and carries less ammo was a good fucking idea? But no heads will roll because Siggers rule the upper echelons.

>>63964756
How are they overhyped? They're like, pure hobbyists guns because they tend to run more so every zogg'd government buys something else for their millions of bots. Maybe you can do that futuristic style AR from that Chinese gun meme post

I meant something like this. At its core, am AR15. But looking different enough it can fit in a sci-fi

>>63959208
Never gonna happen until we figure out how to make a piston weigh as much as a tiny stainless steel tube, which is never gonna happen. You also have to consider there are extra parts to be broken in a piston system. The AR18 is shit vs the AR15. DI/Internal piston >>>>>> external piston. I thought we were done with you retards in the 2000s

>>63964942
Agreed, DI brother, May army Keep M4s, and upgrade them
DI (Direct impingement) all the way!

>>63964869
>>63964856
Lmao I have to admit I don't hate HERA furniture, even if it is kitcschy
As for bullpups being overhyped, maybe I'm showing my age but bullpups have felt like the default / quintessential 'sci fi' gun for decades now. Everything from 'this is literally just an AUG' that we see in the early 90s to Kojima's FAMAS fetish onto everything from Killzone to Halo to Avatar.
The only big exceptions I can think of are the M4A1 pulse rifle from Aliens and the Jalopi AKM from Elysium.
>>63964804
I was considering something CETME / HK derived as well. I just wasn't sure if such designs would be conscript friendly.

AR cope is hilarious. I don’t even like the M7 but I’m not delusional. The M4 has been replaced.

>>63961575
It's not just that. The Army spent ~20 years working on a new, lightweight SAW and cartridge. They used existing 5.56 and 7.62 bullets as a baseline, expecting that a new bullet would be developed later on for the final cartridge. The whole goal was to *lighten* the soldier's burden, to reduce the weight of the SAW and its ammo (due to the fish-gun fiasco, replacing the rifle/carbine was a wink-wink-nudge-nudge-say-no-more affair), so that soldiers would either have more mobility and stamina or (more likely) the Army could load them up with new gadgets and gizmos (like, say, drones). These efforts were going great: ~30% reduction in cartridge weight (again, using existing bullets), lighter prototype SAWs, reduced recoil, the few soldiers who got to test them out loved them, etc.

And then came a few generals who hated the whole idea and wanted MUH BATTLE RIFLE. They used the excuse that troops in Afghanistan were being "outmatched" by 7.62x54 LMGs on "the next mountaintop over", and that what the Army really needed was *not* a cheap, lightweight carbine/SAW plus a cheap, lightweight guided munition for long-range combat... it was a large, heavy rifle and SAW capable of putting large, heavy, unguided(!) rounds out to very long ranges.

They started out by essentially demanding a souped-up 7.62x51 rifle become general issue. When that attempt failed, they latched on to the lightweight SAW/carbine program and rewrote the specifications to demand that the new round be big, heavy, and extremely fast.

That Xm25, the grenede launcher rifle combo would be real handy fighting drones
Maybe, that will be the current future of future Arms
the Xm25 rifle combo combats drones, and defend from advancing troops
Let's hope the military will have common sence implementing these future weapons, lighting them up for soldiers
And keeping soldiers safe, may it be

>>63957349 (OP)
I think squeezing 30 or 40 rounds in a stendo pistol grip mag of what will basically be a future 5.7 with the whole rest of the gun being indirect fire power focused ie grenades or explosives would be wicked.
The light recoil high cap keeps heads down and is important for suppression in the first half of a fire fight and the explosives fuckin kill the guy who's now ducking your suppressive fire

>>63965212
That sounds like the Judge Dredd version of a Ghetto Blaster.

>>63964531
Well allow me to facilitate your tumescence further, anon.

Quad stacks really need to be coupled with constant recoil, and for the same reason - to push the rifle more into the realm of an LMG and vastly improve the usefulness of full auto fire. That was kinda the whole point of assault rifles in the first place. An m4 with a cyclic rate of 850 rpm will last only 2.1 seconds in full auto before the mag runs dry. And that’s with sharp spikes in recoil energy as the BCG bottoms out on the receiver at the end of each stroke. Constant recoil smooths this out, spreads recoil energy over a longer period of time, and slows down the cyclic rate. Compare the AR to a hypothetical rifle with 600rpm full auto and a 75 round mag. This one’s stream of full auto fire lasts 7.5 seconds, and is more controllable and accurate on top of that.

As for “why quad stacks instead of drums”
That’s cause quad stacks are the most mass and volume efficient way of carrying and feeding ammunition. For a sense of the difference in weight, compare the Magpul d60 (20.5oz) to the Surefire 60rd quad stack (~7.5oz IIRC). The Surefire also occupies a smaller volume. Quad stacks are also just as easy to carry as double stacks, whereas drums might actually be the solid with the worst possible shape to fill a volume, lol. They’re impossible to carry.

Picrel was surefire’s comically long 100rd quad stack. Was discontinued not long after launch, but they kept making the more manageable 60 round version for some time, until discontinuing that one as well sometime in the last couple years.

What would historians say about your m4/m16/ar15/10 platform gun 300 years from now while they are still producing M4's?

>>63965212
So basically OICW with an MP7. The stendos should be quad stacks too.

>>63957367
>muh 2000 year ARs
Whatever, we’ll be using the M2 Browning for 40,000 more years

>>63958745
We already tried electronic triggers and caseless ammo and they were both dropped because they’re retarded.
>my loaded gun won’t fire because the battery in it died
>my ammo is now very fragile, the rifle overheats very quickly, and the ammo cooks off very easily now
There is literally no reason to change these things except for the sake of changing them.

>>63966095
There ain’t no room for historians in the gene wars, son. Everyone’s a soldier with an AR and they’ll all be singing the praises of Eugene Stoner
>may St. Stoner bless my AR as I use it to purge the wicked
>let it’s divine mechanism never fail to feed
>may the firing pin always strike true, and never light
>may he show me favor in this way while jamming the ARs of my enemies
>hear me St. Stoner, I have adopted the slick-sided ways and burned a forward assist upon your alter

>>63966201
Whatever happened to Metal Storm anyway?

>>63967050
I bet it's very depressing lmao

>>63958745
>Electronic triggers
Another potential point of failure with little benefit when it works. Not ideal in a tool meant for literal life or death situations.

>caseless and polycased
Has been tried, doesn't work. Metal cases are an important part of thermal management in air-cooled automatic firearms.

>>63958745
>explosive rounds, airburst rounds, self guiding rounds,
Pointlessly expensive and limited to larger calibers

>self ranging scopes
Yeah that's neat.

Anti electronic trigger is the exact same cope as anti red dot. It’s already proven itself superior in high precision sport shooting, it WILL eventually be ruggedized and trickle down. God tier trigger for no cost but remembering a battery once a year.

>>63967194
Oh sure, it will eventually become the norm.
Handheld firearms will eventually move away from kinetically ignited primers to systems that require electronic ignition.

But even in the year 2525 someone will just shoot you with a nugget while you're fruitlessly trying to hack his TriggerSafe ID.

>>63967181
Poly cases work fine and lead to lower chamber temps than metal.

>>63957349 (OP)
I think the m14 will make a comeback like they’re trying now with that gay spear gun.

>>63957349 (OP)
>M4s on Mars?
Probably, yeah. Or something very similar.
Actually would gas op have problems in hard vacuum/near vacuum?

>>63967316
Naw the pressure difference between what's going on inside the gun and outside are so extreme they dont matter. You can shoot guns underwater and in space.

>>63967233
Mechanical triggers will go before regular primers
Electronic triggers allow you to integrate digital firing solutions with your range finding and optical devices and are pretty obviously there future of small arms.
Whether or not electronic primers are ever better than what we have now I think is a more open question

>>63959241
electronic trigger with solid states are gonna outmatch mechanical trigger with springs in reliability.

>>63957367
>We will have ARs for 2000 years, like swords existed from antiquity to the industrial revolution. There's only so many ways to reliably shoot a small piece of metal at someone.
ARs lije AKs are a shit rifle. primarily both were made to arm millions of cold war conscipts with little training for short range and simple fire and suppress tactics at contact ranges of 300M (visible range).

Both are made from cheap materials and are intended to be expendible, of limited use and low cost, just like the men carrying them

/arg/ and you think think it is a good rifle. You sad retarded brainwashed fucker (modern nuAmercan).. Sad to see it, the USA was once a nation of actual riflemen as opposed to mag dumping larperators. Not any more that's for sure. Any scoped 270 that shoots MOA is a better rifle than an AR. You don't even know that. Any shotgun is better than an AR at close range. You don't; know that either, Instead you tie yourself into little knots of bullshitt based on youtube videos so you can gress up and play, you don't learn to shoot well (or at all) you just piss money into shitty 'accessories' to try and make a cheap shit expendable short range rifle for morons into something it is not and never will be, a quality rifle or something of much use to any man for anything other than being part of an expendible group of borderline illiterate conscipts. Just like an AK.

>>63967460
>electronic trigger with solid states are gonna outmatch mechanical trigger with springs in reliability.
I have weapons that are over 300 years old and have been in multiple conflicts and still have working triggers. Do you want to think harder about the garbage you wrote?

>>63967530
k

>>63957349 (OP)
>The Future of Small Arms
It's vcalled a personal defense drone system. You can carry a rifle or you can carry your defense drone system. It will monitor a zone around you for thermal and accousic information, respond to incoming fire, lay smoke, intercept hosile drones and kill any target or group of targets you point at or designate. You can carry a gun instead, sure but they are obsolete.

>>63967530
Name your choice of rifle for re-arming the US Army today, no questions asked.

>>63967618
My dick.
There's enough for everyone.

>>63967570
Begging for wide band signal jamming to come into it own
Fiber optics can’t swarm
Not an entirely unsolvable problem but farther off than I think most expect

>>63967666
why, my peenus weanus of course :)

hahah! :D

it's my weeeeeenus peanus! :) hahah

>>63967549
>Dude I have old gun it shoot well
So when LEDs were invented, you thought they were less reliable than incandescent bulbs because LEDs were newer?

>>63967530
This pasta is amazing