Thread 63998543 - /k/ [Archived: 184 hours ago]

Anonymous
7/18/2025, 11:49:14 AM No.63998543
Char-B1bis-Saumur.0004axt0
Char-B1bis-Saumur.0004axt0
md5: 816be1d0db795f3938e653555939b55c๐Ÿ”
>one man turrets
what were they thinking? why was french tank design of the interwar so... unique? the idea of interchangable turrets placable on any of their tanks was good, but even a two man turret would have been miles better
Replies: >>63998550 >>63998553 >>63998617 >>63999193 >>63999806 >>64000088 >>64000162 >>64000758 >>64001830 >>64003596 >>64004128 >>64005210 >>64005377 >>64008512 >>64008520 >>64009304 >>64013915 >>64014589 >>64014614
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 11:51:01 AM No.63998550
>>63998543 (OP)
Same deal as autoloader fags: they wanted to reduce the crew count so they could distribute more guys across more tanks.
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 11:52:29 AM No.63998553
>>63998543 (OP)
They didn't envision it for offense and thought their static defense line would do the heavy lifting.
Replies: >>64001796 >>64005210
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 12:22:20 PM No.63998614
Where did the Saint-Chamond assault tank tech tree go?
Replies: >>64007978 >>64011775 >>64011821
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 12:23:18 PM No.63998617
>>63998543 (OP)
Two man turret necessarily means bigger turret, meaning more armor, meaning more weight, meaning more stress on chassis and engine; meaning slower tank. The Char B1 was already a notably slow tank, one man turret may have been the concession that kept it mobile.
Replies: >>64000133
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 4:12:07 PM No.63999193
>>63998543 (OP)
French peoples brains during the interwar period were 98% being insufferable cunts and 2% giving a shit about tank design. I'm sure Pierre stopped fucking his mistress for five minutes to sign off on this thing going into full production.
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 5:30:32 PM No.63999434
That's why you don't standardize the bad parts of your designs
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 7:11:43 PM No.63999806
>>63998543 (OP)
Lindybeige thinks they're a good idea.
Really sums up everything you need to know.
Replies: >>64011828
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 8:18:08 PM No.64000088
>>63998543 (OP)
A modernised version with an unmanned turret and operated by a single crew would be perfect for the current war in Ukraine.
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 8:27:22 PM No.64000133
>>63998617
The frogs made two-man turrets, for the AMC 35 light tank, which was initially conceived as a Belgian order.
It was very expensive to make and, uncharacteristically for a French tank, it had pretty poor armor.
The frogs weren't completely retarded, and realized single-turret designs were bad, but their industry was weak.
So the best they managed were those "assisted", or "one and a half man" turrets they had designed for the S40 (Somua mk 2) and the B1-ter.
Replies: >>64000176
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 8:33:23 PM No.64000162
>>63998543 (OP)
>Why were there so many strange ideas in the time when the formula hadn't been figured out so well yet
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 8:36:14 PM No.64000176
>>64000133
The Char B1 had the mechanical complexity of a Tiger 1, what are you talking about?
They standardized the worst possible part, a very interwar frog thing that also killed their air force.
And they developed the first three-man turret (1C). The problem is their doctrine struck in the early 1920s, their light tanks were well armored but as light than they had limited crew for non-technical reasons, their heavy tanks were either a land-cruise or a casemate-tank contraption using a larger gun and a light tank turret. Their medium were heavier light tanks that shared the worst things of light and heavy tanks.
Their only good standardization was the tank guns but they never standardized the power plant or transmissions, instead they chose to mass produce the shittiest turret possible because the bureaucracy thought casting was excellent for mass producing crap.
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 10:29:35 PM No.64000758
FT_17
FT_17
md5: 070b7c8bf371ed22d627061a03867c20๐Ÿ”
>>63998543 (OP)
It makes sense for a Tankette where space is at a premium. Hence, the Renault FT which had a total crew of two. People assumed the FT's turret was the ideal and never improved it until it was too late.

Remember, these were the early days of tank warfare. There was a big argument over what a tank was used for and the best way to do that.
Replies: >>64000768 >>64012390
Anonymous
7/18/2025, 10:33:23 PM No.64000768
>>64000758
Those were still early designs.
Replies: >>64003722
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 3:54:25 AM No.64001796
1487614296939
1487614296939
md5: 54ce9227cc2c8a96ecd2f77584e51fbb๐Ÿ”
>>63998553
Brainlet take. The entire point of the Maginot Line was to hold back the enemy until you can bring up your reinforcements for a counter attack. If it wasn't for Huntziger it would have worked as planned too.
Replies: >>64002958
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 4:06:50 AM No.64001830
>>63998543 (OP)
The Char 1b was a meme, but I absolutely love it. (largely because it was a meme).
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 9:38:30 AM No.64002958
>>64001796
> If it wasn't for Huntziger it would have worked as planned too.

frenchies had 8 MONTHS to do their supposed offensive
they had plenty of opportunity in September '39 but chose to do bascially nothing after encountering just a tiny bit of german resistance

then once germans took the initative they got BTFO even after finding out about the german plans because they were still stuck in WW1, just take a look at Abbeville
Replies: >>64004970
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 2:45:24 PM No.64003596
ACG-1_1940 (1)
ACG-1_1940 (1)
md5: 03547cee6bb6d1efefceb6ba28a3e33e๐Ÿ”
>>63998543 (OP)

But they did
Replies: >>64004196
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 3:29:52 PM No.64003722
>>64000768
Most one-man turrets are early designs. You see a lot of one man turrets in the Interwar period but the concept basically went extinct during WW2.
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:24:09 PM No.64004128
>>63998543 (OP)
>1: Interwar France was broke
>2: They were also convinced that the French military was only a few days away from staging a coup
Neither of those things leads to a military getting lots of high quality gear OP.
Replies: >>64004166 >>64004179 >>64004248
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:32:05 PM No.64004166
>>64004128
>3. Laziness and incompetence. Even if they knew something had a fundamental problem they just kept doing the same for over 10 years. i.e. aeroengines, they banned imports, they didn't have a rigorous test system and procedure to evaluate engines, the government simply placed order for large amount of engines even if most of them would fail in less than 50 hours and ignoring that internally some people saw the need of establishing a rigorous way to test fuel, production line QC and engine stress test like in the US, England or Germany.
Replies: >>64004177 >>64004248
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:35:05 PM No.64004177
Not him >>64004166
>3. Laziness and incompetence. Even if they knew something had a fundamental problem they just kept doing the same for over 10 years.
i.e. aeroengines, even after France banned imports for years, they didn't have a rigorous test system and procedure to evaluate engines, the government simply placed order for large amount of engines even if most of them would fail in less than 50 hours and ignoring that internally some people saw the need of establishing a rigorous way to test fuel, production line QC and engine stress test like in the US, England or Germany.
GR and HS licensed a lot of their designs but unlike RR, DB, PW and Bristol they hit a wall that required major redesigns to increase engine power, and derivatives still were comparatively unreliable compared to derivatives of Bristol or PW.
Replies: >>64004206 >>64004248
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:35:42 PM No.64004179
>>64004128
Their insane fear of Boulagisme was a massive self-sabotage, when it came to creating actually functional armed forces.
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:38:35 PM No.64004196
>>64003596
Those were originally intended for a Belgian contract, only taken over once it became clear shit was about to go sideways.
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:41:50 PM No.64004204
Why do you want 2 dudes in the spinny thing on top of that armored car?

.t no tanks
Replies: >>64005521 >>64005889
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:42:11 PM No.64004206
>>64004177
> even after France banned imports for years
realistically
what is the best way to approach this stuff from a /bizhis/ POV?

> allow imports
> market gets flooded with cheaper foreign stuff
> own country fails to build its own industry

> do not allow imports
> fall behind because customers are used to shitty garbage and companies have no incentive to improve

> allow SOME imports
> top-of-the-notch stuff is importet from foreign nation while your country produces just cheap / mediocre shit
Replies: >>64004248
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 5:53:04 PM No.64004248
>>64004206
To begin with, let the government import engines to use them as reference for quality and reliability.
If you gonna go isolationist then at least you should keep the bar high enough to no breed complacency and mediocrity wrapped in marketing bullshit. During the 30s there're at least 2 occasions where the government they understood they absolutely needed some rigorous way to test engines, in a technical instead of political way. And yet they did nothing, complete inaction. During the Battle of France the problems with local engines essentially decided the result, even the recently imported Curtiss Hawk 75 performed better than 90% of local designs (made up 90% but it was close to reality, they had only 1 good fighter but with terrible engine).


I tagged my deleted post >>64004166, >>64004177 is for >>64004128.
Replies: >>64004337
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 6:00:48 PM No.64004273
Pretty much everyone but the krauts and soviets had a retarded interwar tank doctrine, which in turn lead to retarded designs. The small caliber AT gun really is an afterthought, all they wanted was a casemated 75mm or better HE slinger to aid infantry. (Kraut retardation was separating the AT gun and HE slinger to separate tanks, but that's another deal)
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 6:17:02 PM No.64004337
>>64004248
>And yet they did nothing, complete inaction.
This, they completely dropped the ball. The Hispano-Suiza 12Z and the Ghone-Rhone 14R could've easily come out circa 1937, when there still was time to re-engine the MS 406 and the MB 150 with them.
Replies: >>64004412
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 6:24:42 PM No.64004368
skill issue
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 6:37:49 PM No.64004412
>>64004337
>14R
No, all French 14's (K, N, R) were related and 'ill engines'. They couldn't fix the 14R in the 5 years following WW2 to use as airliner engine (the 14R is essentially a 2 speed 14N with minor changes to survive the extra boost) they simply licensed the Bristol Hercules.
The HS were similar, even if they tried to fix it the end result was similar to a Klimov and as reliable as one. Less ambitious variants created by Czechs and Swiss were heavier without trying to achieve the absurd power of the 12Z or VK-107.
Replies: >>64004440
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 6:43:28 PM No.64004440
>>64004412
The Romanians at IAR managed to make a reasonably reliable 1100 hp version of the 14K for the IAR 81.
Which proves the only thing lacking was will.
Replies: >>64004592
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 7:15:49 PM No.64004592
>>64004440
>reasonably reliable
Because they had no alternative. Even Soviets which had licensed as many engines as possible decided to produce ~10 times more radials using the PW variants (Shvetsov) instead of the GR variants (Tumansky). If you have no alternative you'll use a 'sick engine' like Germany did with the DB 605 or 14M. I'm not saying they're unfixable but the 14K-pattern was problematic and less mechanically streamlined than the more row-as-a-module PW-pattern, a good example was Mitsubishi (14K-pattern) vs Nakajima (Nakajima-pattern similar to PW), and its design constrictions makes the 14K pattern only useful for twin-row designs. Mitsubishi could make good engines but in general their designs were a second choice for fighters compared to Nakajima.
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 9:01:33 PM No.64004970
>>64002958
>then once germans took the initative they got BTFO even after finding out about the german plans because they were still stuck in WW1
Again, this is a brainlet tank. The French were far more mobile than the Germans were in WWII. Same with the British. Everyone also forgets that the last year of WWI was mostly a war of movement.
Replies: >>64005022
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 9:16:58 PM No.64005022
>>64004970
> The French were far more mobile than the Germans were in WWII
having more trucks (if this is even true in the first place)
doesnt mean jackshit if your tactics are still stuck in 1916

> Everyone also forgets that the last year of WWI was mostly a war of movement.
i don't even want to bother checking how true this is (compared to ww2 standards)
because even if its true it doesnt mean jackshit when they unlearned those lessions

like I said, look up Battle of Abbeville
https://youtu.be/LSOGpd9wSi4?t=345

(idk if this video has auto translate for the captions but the visual representation should suffice)
Replies: >>64005035 >>64005082 >>64005092
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 9:22:01 PM No.64005035
>>64005022
> https://youtu.be/LSOGpd9wSi4?t=185
the qrd is basically that the Allies were not into maneuver warfare
instead of exploiting certain situations they waited for infantry to catch up or got bogged down fighting irrelevant pockets of resistance
this allowed the germans to reassable and counterattack or form another line of defense
Replies: >>64005082 >>64005092
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 9:36:34 PM No.64005082
>>64005022
>>64005035
summary from the wikiarticle:

> 27 May
> The 3rd Armoured Brigade was able to reach high ground near Cambron and Saigneville and the edge of St Valery-sur-Somme on the coast. There was no infantry to follow up and consolidate the ground and the tanks were ordered to retire when the French were found to be digging in behind them at Behen, Quesnoy and Brutelles

> 28 May
> When the Char B1s continued their advance towards the Abbeville bridges, French infantry failed to keep up; indecision led the French tank crews to retire at dusk to their jumping-off positions and regroup
> De Gaulle [...] ordered the tank units to rest and regroup during the night, ready to renew the advance at first light (4:00 a.m.) The respite allowed German command to recover and organise a new defensive perimete

> 29-31 May
> De Gaulle issued an order announcing the German abandonment of the bridgehead and that the 4e DCr should immediately exploit this by advancing towards the river
> The French advance came to a halt and at 2:00 p.m., the Char B1 battalions asked for an artillery bombardment of the German defences on Mont de Caubert, to destroy the 88 mm guns but this did not begin until 8:00 p.m
> After three hours, the German infantry had rallied and reoccupied their positions unopposed; the offensive ended on 30 May, the French having lost 105 tanks in three days.
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 9:38:43 PM No.64005092
>>64005022
>>64005035
>i don't even want to bother checking how true this is
Yes, it's obvious that you're retarded and won't see anything that changes your preconceived notions.

The French failures in 1940 weren't do to tactics; their failures were far worse and higher up. The German achievements in 1940 were also not due to tactics because only a fucking moron would think that a 200km long traffic jam full of tanks is a good idea. Nor is it a good idea to just blow well past your supply lines. The French and British were well acquainted with maneuver warfare; they just didn't think the Germans would be a reckless as they were. The fact that it worked is beyond a miracle. They kept trying to do the same exact thing over and over and over again and failed each and every time and yet morons, like yourself, think they were such geniuses.
Replies: >>64005123 >>64005933
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 9:47:12 PM No.64005123
>>64005092
> immedeatly starts shitflinging
yea whatever dude
care to post a source for your statement that
> French were far more mobile than the Germans were in WWII
?

it's all so tiresome with people like you
Replies: >>64005209
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 10:15:50 PM No.64005209
>>64005123
The majority of the French army was in Belgium and the Netherlands days after Germany invaded. How do you think they got there? Unlike them, the majority of the German army was on foot. Even the majority of the units that invaded France were on foot, just trying to chase up to the armor units racing to the sea without support.
Replies: >>64005374
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 10:15:53 PM No.64005210
>>63998543 (OP)
It wasn't that unusual at that time, the bougie designers made 2 man turrets but even that wasn't overly common.
>Type 95 Ha-Go
>L6/40
>LT vz. 34
All contemporaries with 1 man turrets
The more important part was that the Char B1 was designed around it's 75mm howitzer and the result of what is basically a SPG design. Originally the turret only had an MG for self defense. The upgrade to the 47mm followed quite late in the development.

>>63998553
>They didn't envision it for offense and thought their static defense line would do the heavy lifting.
How the fuck do you come up with this nonsense? It's completely contradictory. If they had static lines for defense and the tanks weren't for offense they why did they have them if they had no purpose?

Of course they were intended for offense, more accurately it was the support element that is supposed to remove all obstacles the infantry faces so the latter could carry the objective.
Replies: >>64005297
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 10:47:18 PM No.64005297
>>64005210
>All contemporaries with 1 man turrets
They kept building 1-man turrets until 1940. When Germany or Soviets were forced to use the same chassis they redesigned the turret or simply dropped the turret to make a SPG. That what Germany did with those hulls, use them as gun platforms or tractors.
After 1935 most mediums had 2-man turrets or 3-man turrets and yet France was still casting the same obsolete turret in 1940, 10 years after its initial design because they thought it was some kind of wundertech perfect for their backward doctrine.
Replies: >>64005504
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 11:08:58 PM No.64005374
>>64005209
> how do you think they got there?
not an argument
try again

(also your claim that the majority of the French army was in Belgium and Netherlands is probably not even true; French Second and Thrid Army Group which were responsible for protecting the Maginot south of Montmรฉdy totaled 4 armies, the 1st Army Group which guarded the border to Belgium numbered 4 french armies, of those only 3 were involved for the fight of belgium, the French 2nd Army initally was left behind protecting the Meuse)
Replies: >>64005425
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 11:10:51 PM No.64005377
>>63998543 (OP)
It was only a single man turret? I could have sworn the B1 bis had a 2 seater
Replies: >>64005446 >>64005529
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 11:29:21 PM No.64005425
France-1938-1949-production
France-1938-1949-production
md5: 6efc0aca5ed8578e1124b2676cafc73e๐Ÿ”
>>64005374
adding to this:
In 1939, German truck production reached 102,000 vehicles

meanwhile the french struggled to build even a quarter of that
Replies: >>64005504
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 11:33:12 PM No.64005446
Ammoracks_B1_bis
Ammoracks_B1_bis
md5: 64b8b301c6b08138d6bad1bbc15c8107๐Ÿ”
>>64005377
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 11:48:20 PM No.64005504
>>64005297
>because they thought it was some kind of wundertech perfect for their backward doctrine.
For someone demanding sourcing, you keep making up stupid shit. Their doctrine was fine and no, they were not trying to fight trench warfare.

>>64005425
Production means nothing. France had more tanks than the Germans did.

What kind of source is even that?
Replies: >>64005848 >>64005875
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 11:51:37 PM No.64005521
>>64004204
Too many jobs for one person.
Imagine trying to operate an artillery piece by yourself, first you have to load the cannon, then identify your target, then you have to traverse and elevate the gun, and finally fire.
You better fucking hit that first shot and destroy your enemy, because if you don't you have to take your eyes off the optics to reload and go through the whole process again.

Meanwhile in a three man turret:
>commander is constantly identifying targets and observing the battlefield
>loader is constantly slamming shells as fast as he can
>gunner can focus on making accurate shots with no distractions

Basically a one man turret tank is mostly blind, inaccurate, and slow firing.
Replies: >>64012604
Anonymous
7/19/2025, 11:53:31 PM No.64005529
Somua turret designed by FCM with three man crew and 47mm SA37
>>64005377
The Somua S-35 had a "man & half turret" meaning that I believe the radio operator could provide assistance to the commander with loading the main gun. I don't think the B1 had that ability. I do remember that the French were aware of the limitations of the one man turrets and were working on fixing it, but the defeat of France ended that.
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 1:21:17 AM No.64005848
D1
D1
md5: cf7879f65de3f672b76d3b3aa1b7d1ab๐Ÿ”
>>64005504
>For someone demanding sourcing,
picrel, frogs refused to sell any kind of licensed of their newer tanks with casted steel. In the same times they're licensing the HS12Y and GR14K to anyone. Imagine licensing the newest tech, aeroengines, but not casted steel to an ally.

>you keep making up stupid shit
>Their doctrine was fine and no,
ironic fanfic, but history tells a different story.
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 1:27:17 AM No.64005875
>>64005504
> France had more tanks than the Germans did.
so?
your whole point was that the French (and Brits) were supposedly more mobile than the Germans; that their infantry didn't have to rely on walking

unless you are somehow claiming that the French infantry used tanks for troop transport this point is pretty irrelevant
Replies: >>64006112
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 1:32:04 AM No.64005889
>>64004204
Similar to why you have 2 men on a machinegun or recoilless rifle or ATGM or more than two men in a rifle fireteam.

1 man is ok for an emergency self-defense mode on a rear echelon vehicle. If you're in a vehicle actually intended to fight you need two men. One thinks about shooting and searches the target area and the other thinks about everything else and looks around other places.
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 1:47:58 AM No.64005933
>>64005092
holy fucking cope, even for a fr*nchman
i guess the whole beginning of barbarossa was also just a big case of "miracle warfare"
Replies: >>64006112
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 2:32:23 AM No.64006112
>ironic fanfic, but history tells a different story.
Which country won WWII?
The failures of France in 1940 had nothing to do with their tactics. Their failures were mostly within their government and their leadership. Having a general tell his men to abandon their forts, while they were holding the Germans at bay is the dumbest thing ever. Germany would have failed without Charles Huntziger.

>>64005875
>so?
If you weren't dense you would understand what I am saying. Production numbers means nothing. France had more tanks than the Germans, but that means nothing in the long run because the Germans used their tanks better. Germany may have produced more trucks in 1939, but that doesn't mean most of their troops ever got to ride in one, nor does it even mean that Germany even had more trucks.

>>64005933
>i guess the whole beginning of barbarossa was also just a big case of "miracle warfare"
It's the same case of overly ambitious and tactically unsound. The G*rmans were huffing too much of their own supply.
Replies: >>64006117 >>64007451 >>64008413
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 2:34:49 AM No.64006117
>>64006112
>Which country won WWII?
United States
Soviet Union
England

Definitely not (post-Mussolini) Italy or France
Replies: >>64006274
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 3:29:48 AM No.64006274
>>64006117
So the 4th largest allied army didn't win WWII? You wehraboos are so retarded.
Replies: >>64006299
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 3:37:30 AM No.64006299
>>64006274
They barely got a consolation prize during the occupation for their efforts (more like the US giving them a part of their territory to save money).

>England: 22M Germans
>Soviets: 17M Germans
>US: 22M Germans (split into 17M for the US and 5M for France)
Replies: >>64006344
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 3:48:40 AM No.64006344
>>64006299
And yet, the Canadians, Dutch, Belgians, Poles, Czechs, Norwegians, Greeks, Yugos, South Africans got nothing. It's amazing at what lengths wehraboos will go to downplay the French in WWII.
Replies: >>64006375
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 3:57:23 AM No.64006375
>>64006344
>Canadians
>South Africa
>Australians
>New Zealander
All parts of the British Commonwealth during the war.

>Poles
Blame Roosevelt and Churchill betraying Poles when they had been fighting 2 countries since 1938. Their only fault was being on the wrong side of Berlin.

>Dutch, Belgians, Greeks
They got a lot of help and benefits like being part of NATO and unike the frogs and their desire of another humiliation of Germans, the US and England weren't interested in a complete balkanization of Germany.

>Yugos
Say that to soviets that got as many Germans as England or the US (you have to include out-Germany territories like Pomerania, East Prussia, etc besides other countries)
Replies: >>64007464
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 12:06:47 PM No.64007451
>>64006112
> Production numbers means nothing
> Germany may have produced more trucks in 1939, but that doesn't mean most of their troops ever got to ride in one, nor does it even mean that Germany even had more trucks.
yes anon
I am sure french, who produced about 40k less trucks in 1938, 1939 and 1940 COMBINED than the germans produced in 1939 alone had magically access to more trucks and / or had acess to some kind of wonderwaffe GigaTruck that somehow allowed them to use them more than 3x as efficient

I assume you have got a source for any of that?
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 12:15:41 PM No.64007464
Bakker_Schut-plan
Bakker_Schut-plan
md5: 566480fd944c5d70b050c0f8dbdcf1a2๐Ÿ”
>>64006375
dutch also got a tiny amount of german territory (which they gave back a few years later)
their plan to annex a ridiculous amount of western germany is also pretty funny
Replies: >>64007951 >>64008285
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 4:14:35 PM No.64007951
>>64007464
>their plan to annex a ridiculous amount of western germany is also pretty funny
lol
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 4:26:50 PM No.64007978
>>63998614
You can see its lineage in the B1 - with the main gun in a casemate, they just popped a dinky little turret on top.
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 6:07:17 PM No.64008285
>>64007464
what the fuck were they thinking?
Replies: >>64008500 >>64008573
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 6:39:41 PM No.64008413
>>64006112
ok nevermind, you are actually metally impaired, my bad for replying
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 7:02:30 PM No.64008500
>>64008285
>what the fuck were they thinking?
IK OOK! IK OOK! IK OOK! OOK OOK OOK
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 7:05:13 PM No.64008512
>>63998543 (OP)
>what were they thinking?
walkable streets
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 7:08:39 PM No.64008520
IMG_2774
IMG_2774
md5: 47a7e63f9736fca72df10d5b7ca7bcee๐Ÿ”
>>63998543 (OP)
Ngl it kicked ass early in the war and it would look so much better without the meme artillery cannon in the hull imo.
Replies: >>64011839
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 7:20:16 PM No.64008573
Grand Duchy of Luxembourg formulated plans to annex parts of Germany
>>64008285
It could be even more comical
Replies: >>64009243
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 10:20:08 PM No.64009243
>>64008573
but why...?
Replies: >>64009268
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 10:25:51 PM No.64009268
>>64009243
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Luxembourg
>Euros for centuries: reclaim your part of Luxembourg!
Anonymous
7/20/2025, 10:35:04 PM No.64009304
>>63998543 (OP)
I was literally in front of that tank this morning
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:53:32 AM No.64010185
They should have stayed in French territory, instead of going into mobile warfare and getting killed by a huge traffic jam of refugees.
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:23:04 PM No.64011775
>>63998614
Funnily, the Japanese bought the Saint-Chamonds and used them as SPGs to much greater effect than they ever had in their tank careers.
Replies: >>64011818 >>64018853
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:38:49 PM No.64011818
StChamond-attack-800x576-1
StChamond-attack-800x576-1
md5: 39ed4d8fea05b8b3611eb2672aa359c3๐Ÿ”
>>64011775
The French already used them as SPGs during the last months of WW1, once the FT became available in large enough numbers
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:41:11 PM No.64011821
62077_rd
62077_rd
md5: 350127b1884dd20a0e8b8bb89e27b92e๐Ÿ”
>>63998614
It was never gone
Replies: >>64011825
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:42:44 PM No.64011825
91eaa9c50eb10b55b0f2cfcf987886fa
91eaa9c50eb10b55b0f2cfcf987886fa
md5: fc84d707f4ada3db31fadefef15bdddc๐Ÿ”
>>64011821
Replies: >>64011830
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:43:43 PM No.64011828
>>63999806
>Lindybeige
wasn't that the guy that desperatly tried to argue that the Bren is better than the MG42?
Replies: >>64012695 >>64012986
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:43:52 PM No.64011830
amx 10 acra 01
amx 10 acra 01
md5: 71a83013579a7f87a72c3a95e81f764a๐Ÿ”
>>64011825
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 2:48:03 PM No.64011839
kro1ivmxvpu21
kro1ivmxvpu21
md5: ec06fe7f9e59ed6bb496e8364b819e8d๐Ÿ”
>>64008520
>it kicked ass early in the war
It sure did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbZiFgLgaeU
>it would look so much better without the meme artillery cannon in the hull imo
What are you talking about? It's the best part
Replies: >>64012292 >>64014429
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 6:06:49 PM No.64012292
>>64011839
Iโ€™m surprised thereโ€™s no movie about the Eure
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 6:34:15 PM No.64012390
>>64000758
>Remember, these were the early days of tank warfare. There was a big argument over what a tank was used for and the best way to do that.

1 man turret tanks would've been conceived of as "cavalry" tanks whose priority was maneuverability and speed over firepower, like the T-70 or Panzer I. Heavy tanks were supposed to punch a hole in the front line that the cavalry tanks would exploit and rush through to encircle or cut off the remaining enemy.
Replies: >>64012445
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 6:44:21 PM No.64012445
>>64012390
>"cavalry" tanks
Cavalry tanks in service always had at least 2-man turrets afaik, even if the Christies didn't have a turret or it was just a placeholder turret with a MG and 1 man.
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 7:19:54 PM No.64012604
QxFr4rc
QxFr4rc
md5: 17ca1a874505e13a8b6b383ffdb5433e๐Ÿ”
>>64005521
It's even worse than that. That's only looking at it from a gunnery perspective. Tanks are also manuever weapons, and positioning is important in combat. So given that the driver has a worse overall view (he's down in the front hull), the commander has an additional job of instructing the driver how/where to manuever. If the commander is already massively overworked handling a one man turret by himself, the additional need to effectively coordinate with the driver compounds the issue.

As for OPs question of what they were thinking. A one man turret means you need less metal/manpower to build and operate a tank with X amount of firepower and armor. And if you assume those raw numbers are all that matter, then on paper one man turrets look very attractive. At least until the initial assumptions are upended when the Germans roll in with their early war tin can Panzers with the wunderwaffen engineering principle of "decent crew ergonomics".
Replies: >>64013874
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 7:38:59 PM No.64012695
>>64011828
Yes. Among other things by arguing that the MG34 and MG42 were basically the same thing.
While also claiming that the Bren must be better because it still is used today and that it is better because the allies won.
Replies: >>64012891
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 8:10:20 PM No.64012891
>>64012695
Same role but the 42 has more dakka, is much easier to produce and is more reliable. They are both MG's but not the same.
That being said there's a reason we still use the MG-42 to this day everywhere. It werks, it hoses down a hail of bullets and is familiar tech that has had its teething issues fixed many times over.
Replies: >>64012904
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 8:12:08 PM No.64012904
>>64012891
uhm actually nobody used the MG42 after the war while the Bren stayed in service for decades :)
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 8:26:00 PM No.64012986
>>64011828
> uhm actually this Magazine Fed LMG with 500 rounds per minute is better than a Belt Fed MMG that pumps out 900โ€“1,500 rounds / minute and has an actual proper tripod
just WHAT was he THINKING
Replies: >>64013310
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 9:21:05 PM No.64013310
>>64012986
Pretty sure it was him trying to redeem the, in his opinion, unfairly maligned Bren all while not being very knowledgeable about firearms and modern stuff.
Think about it a bit like batting for the Sherman shortly after Cooper's Death Traps came out. With the additional part of tending to over extolling it's qualities and undervaluing similar equipment.

I get why he did it but as a consequence the video tuned into a disservice to the Bren's reputation.
Replies: >>64014129
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 11:28:40 PM No.64013874
>>64012604
Manpower is one of the real important factors in the French choosing single crew turrets during the interwar. Since the 18th century France had been experiencing a sorta inexplicable and continuing demographic decline, despite being one of the most populous states in Europe their birth rates weren't sufficient to maintain it and were falling over time. This got worse, until you hit 1914 and the population is already starting to age unfavorably, sorta like how Japan and Korea are today. Then after THAT you kill 16% of the male population over the next four years.

Being able to man 6 tanks with 12 men rather than only 3 or 4 was a major selling point for 2-man tanks from the French perspective
Replies: >>64013957 >>64014106 >>64014250
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 11:41:29 PM No.64013915
PzkwII
PzkwII
md5: 04fc1281f66cd7a5b08ee63385dd6090๐Ÿ”
>>63998543 (OP)
Honestly the most damning aspect of French tank design and doctrine is about half of the German tanks that invaded France were only light Panzers. II's armed with 20mm autocannons, and the I's just with machine guns. It seems like if the French had focused on mass producing one or two less crappy multi crewed turret designs (and had an accompanying doctrine that was merely mediocre instead of outright terrible), the Germans wouldn't have been able to roll over France since most of their early war tanks weren't actually really good at head on fights. They just over performed since the French used tanks in a piecemeal fashion, and their more heavily armed and armored tanks were handicapped by the one man turrets.
Replies: >>64013957
Anonymous
7/21/2025, 11:53:23 PM No.64013957
1462173883582_thumb.jpg
1462173883582_thumb.jpg
md5: 3c3ba53c98324a02546d1dee70e80332๐Ÿ”
>>64013874
Indeed. Demographics is a major reason behind French interwar doctrine and the Maginot Line itself. France knew they had about half the population of Germany and tried to find ways to get around that issue.

>>64013915
>They just over performed since the French used tanks in a piecemeal fashion, and their more heavily armed and armored tanks were handicapped by the one man turrets.
They were more handicapped by logistics. It was hard for them to bring up their tanks and to keep them fueled up to mass them enough for a counterattack.
Replies: >>64014250
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 12:47:00 AM No.64014106
>>64013874
1-man turret
2C, crew: 12
2B, crew: 4-5
D2, crew: 3
S35, crew: 3

2-man turret
AMR 35, crew: 3
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 12:53:59 AM No.64014129
bofors bren
bofors bren
md5: 63c204b255fdcaa3403367826c0f5850๐Ÿ”
>>64013310
Thing is as far as WW2 LMG's go before BeardyBeige got involved the Bren had a great reputation. The only people who complained about it were the retards who tried to compare it to an MMG.
His involvement sullied the reputation of what was considered a fine firearm.
Replies: >>64014655
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 1:29:13 AM No.64014250
image099
image099
md5: d1e7dde5fb2dfec86457d4d22b76e035๐Ÿ”
>>64013874
>>64013957
Maybe a bit. But otoh a few thousand extra crew members for tanks with multi-man turrets still isn't breaking the bank. At least not for a country which is still populous enough to mobilize millions of men under arms. I think the demographic problem was more indirect, since it caused the French to hyper prioritize the Maginot line out of casualty aversion. Which had a ton of cutting edge high tech fortifications that ate up a lot of specialist/technically trained manpower that might have otherwise been available for armor units. Which is where I'd guess the extreme crew crunching for French tanks mainly came from.

Speaking of which. Found another weird example of that on the Char B1. The driver apparently was also pulling double duty as the gunner for the 75mm hull gun (note the optical sight above his steering wheel). Which is weird, but I suppose technically better off than the TC since he still has a loader and only expected to use the gun while the tank was stationary.
Replies: >>64014338 >>64014456 >>64014614
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 1:55:28 AM No.64014338
1657618936362_thumb.jpg
1657618936362_thumb.jpg
md5: 1fa6768ce40326636d85342d9f5eef5e๐Ÿ”
>>64014250
>I think the demographic problem was more indirect, since it caused the French to hyper prioritize the Maginot line out of casualty aversion. Which had a ton of cutting edge high tech fortifications that ate up a lot of specialist/technically trained manpower that might have otherwise been available for armor units. Which is where I'd guess the extreme crew crunching for French tanks mainly came from.
Nah. That's because France had a mostly conscript army, but the government being ever paranoid about the army doing a coup they kept lowering the conscription time which hurts all the technical branches.

I really don't think the Maginot line required more technically trained manpower anyways. It's mostly artillery and MG groups. A lot of the line was also manned by older reservists too.
Replies: >>64014361
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:07:07 AM No.64014361
6a00d83542d51e69e20105361d9426970c
6a00d83542d51e69e20105361d9426970c
md5: 89053954144535a738682e69dea19256๐Ÿ”
>>64014338
>I really don't think the Maginot line required more technically trained manpower anyways. It's mostly artillery and MG groups. A lot of the line was also manned by older reservists too.
Maybe the exterior parts of the line. But my understanding they built a fair number of larger fortress with shit like retractable turrets interconnected by underground subways. That seems like it'd take up more technical specialists to keep that maintained than just some trenches or purely concrete bunkers.

Also. What's le webm about? Frog soldiers sperging out over civilian not removing their hats for the flag/casket of a dead soldier?
Replies: >>64014399
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:19:46 AM No.64014399
>>64014361
>But my understanding they built a fair number of larger fortress with shit like retractable turrets interconnected by underground subways.
I don't think many or any forts were interconnected underground. The railways were mostly to transport ammo from their magazines to the guns. And those were only installed on the bigger forts.

>Also. What's le webm about? Frog soldiers sperging out over civilian not removing their hats for the flag/casket of a dead soldier?
They're soldiers in the Ruhr valley occupation. The Germans aren't taking their hats off for their fallen comrade.
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:28:07 AM No.64014429
FWbFpPvXwAAwHuz
FWbFpPvXwAAwHuz
md5: 1676782c5cbd4a599583b33b8d1e2c38๐Ÿ”
>>64011839
>https://youtu.be/XbZiFgLgaeU?si=nKq1LJRpxt8AF_Ta&t=109
>The driver (who is also the hull gunner) lines up the non-stabilized and mostly fixed hull mounted cannon while driving the tank
Replies: >>64014434 >>64015587
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:30:06 AM No.64014434
>>64014429
At that point they probably had designs for 1-man tank
Replies: >>64014478
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:33:25 AM No.64014440
If the facilities in the diagram had been installed along the entire length of the Maginot Line, France would have gone bankrupt.
Replies: >>64014488 >>64014656
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:38:36 AM No.64014456
>>64014250
>I think the demographic problem was more indirect,
I'd argue that it wasn't. Before WW1 France already had the lowest birthrate in Europe and a comparatively old population. Like 1/4th of the population younger than 16 compared to Germany's 34%.
That made it inherently harder for France to compensate the losses from the war.

They had around 1,325,000 military dead and missing at a population of 39.6 million.
Roughly half of those are women and thus mostly found in the additional 340,000-640,000 civilian deaths.
That's ca. 4.4% of the population dead, 3.346% just from the military. So ca. 6.69% of the male population.
If we also exclude the <16 and >59 age groups for men it is a whooping 10.68% of the military aged men, which are also the main labor force and could have been fathers.
And then you need to add in the ca. 4,266,000 military wounded, 34.41% of the previous age group. Now not all of them are long term wounded but a substantial part will have suffered from permanent injuries and disabilities.
Even if it is just 1/3rd it would mean 20% of the men at their best age were no longer available.
Almost every second man in that age group was somehow directly harmed in one way or another.

Germany started that whole game with a population more 50% larger and they maybe lost 1 million more with the same number of wounded people.
France was fucked from the get go.
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:43:53 AM No.64014478
image100
image100
md5: a687be21277a2021a5ee0b0448534428๐Ÿ”
>>64014434
No. I mean how is the hull gunner (who is also the driver on the Char B1) tracking targets while on the move with a gun that is fixed forward with only a couple degrees turning left or right?

Though I guess downplaying the terrible ergonomics on French tanks (and well, on a lot of tanks in general) if you want to illustrate an instance of them actually pulling off something badass/heroic.
Replies: >>64015587
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 2:47:08 AM No.64014488
>>64014440
If the existing designs were extended to the coast the Wehrmacht could not have flanked it so easily.
Replies: >>64014656
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 3:20:44 AM No.64014589
T-34_cutaway
T-34_cutaway
md5: 825f6761345a35dd6c950484c536924f๐Ÿ”
>>63998543 (OP)
>Used to thinking the functional ergonomics of the T-34 (especially the early two man turret version) as being pretty crap
>Read up on French tanks
The notion of any Soviet tanks potentially being *not too bad relatively speaking* in anything but armor and firepower is deeply confusing to me.
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 3:27:10 AM No.64014614
>>63998543 (OP)
>>64014250
Doesn't the whole tank make more sense if you pretend the commander's turret is just an overgunned observation cupola and that the tank's primary armament is the hull gun?
Replies: >>64014627 >>64014664
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 3:30:40 AM No.64014627
>>64014614
No, the hull gun isn't useful for the AT combat you would except for a heavy tank.
Replies: >>64014960 >>64015517
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 3:39:29 AM No.64014655
>>64014129
If anything was unfairly maligned, it was probably the Type 96 and 99 machine guns
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 3:39:30 AM No.64014656
CarteLigneMaginot
CarteLigneMaginot
md5: 2d201a53ec765a735b9618537e364f87๐Ÿ”
>>64014440
That diagram is of a larger fort. Most forts weren't so big.
>>64014488
The Maginot line did go from coast to coast, nor did the Wehrmacht simply go around it as it's popularly claimed.
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 3:40:41 AM No.64014664
image103
image103
md5: 663237db7abd16fa407ce05cca8afa43๐Ÿ”
>>64014614
The problem with that theory is that virtually all the French tanks went for 1 man turrets to. From their lights to their mediums. I think they just got married to the doctrine after they implemented it.
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 3:47:00 AM No.64014687
1388584037782
1388584037782
md5: 671826af1f8bbc55fa479279df3c08a3๐Ÿ”
"Ahem"
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 4:59:20 AM No.64014960
>>64014627
Considering the constraints of the gun in the 1-man turret, What difference does that make?
Use the turret gun only if the hull gun fails to destroy the enemy tank.
Replies: >>64015004
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 5:08:03 AM No.64015004
>>64014960
it can't traverse, imagine having to spend seconds to get the gun on target and then it moves a few meters... it's useless.
Replies: >>64015946
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 8:41:52 AM No.64015517
>>64014627
>gun isn't useful for the AT combat
Well yeah obviously, it was a howitzer after all.
>heavy tank
It had a weight comparable to Shermans, it was an infantry support gun on tracks.
Replies: >>64015556
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 9:40:28 AM No.64015556
>>64015517
>y, it was a howitzer after all.
German: Early Panzer IV, howitzer-like gun.
German: StuH at least could traverse with a howitzer of 10,5 cm
US: M8 howitzer 75mm
US: M4A3 howitzer 105mm
Japan: Chi ha howitzer-like 120mm
Japan: Ho-I howitzer 75mm
England: AVRE
Soviets: howitzer 76.2mm T-28, T-26, BT
Soviets: KV-2 howitzer 152 mm
SU-122/152: SPH based on the T-34 and using a howitzer of 122 mm (it didn't have a sight for long range combat) or 152mm
ISU-152: tank destroyer similar to the SU152 but using the larger chassis of the IS tank, their main weapon to destroy Tigers
Finland: BT modified with a new turret and howitzer 4.5"

hello, a bad design is just a bad design
Replies: >>64015571 >>64015652
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 9:48:05 AM No.64015571
>>64015556
I posted those examples because all of them because they had secondary or primary AT capability (AT ammo, sights for LOS combat, traverse) and could destroy most tank they would face.
Replies: >>64015589
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 9:59:26 AM No.64015587
>>64014429
>>64014478
my nigga
its youtube pop-his slop
dont read too much into
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:00:49 AM No.64015589
>>64015571
Your autism is blinding you, think about the post more instead of vomiting out data like chat GPT
the Char B1bis hull gun could take out any German tank in the battle of France
the point is that howitzers are not ideal anti-tank guns
Replies: >>64015595
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:04:54 AM No.64015595
>>64015589
>gun could take out any German tank in the battle of France
The gun? yes, early German tanks didn't have thick armor like French tanks. That gun mounted In the B1? no, barely useful for an ambush.
The turret gun is far better for the AT role, that' why is in the turret, even if it's just a 1-man turret...
Replies: >>64015600 >>64015663
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:06:49 AM No.64015600
>>64015595
what is the point of your response you motherfucker we're MAKING THE SAME POINT
Replies: >>64015618 >>64015663
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:14:35 AM No.64015618
>>64015600
Because the gun is ok but mounted in a piece of junk. Most medium velocity guns of early WWII were similar to howitzers.
Do you know what differentiates a howitzer and a field gun? the elevation, it must be >45ยบ for a Howitzer, the muzzle velocity is unrelated and that is the only thing that matters for a tank gun.
Replies: >>64015663
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:29:54 AM No.64015652
>>64015556
None of that is relevant in terms of it just being a field gun on tracks and certainly not a heavy tank.
>StuH
From 1942
>M8 howitzer
Also 1942
>M4A3 howitzer
1944
>Chi ha howitzer-like 120mm
1944
>Ho-I howitzer 75mm
1944
>AVRE
Churchill III AVRE is from what 1941?
>T-28
Somewhat valid as an early 30s design but also easily as flawed as the Char B1
>T-26, BT
Mostly prototypes and a few low volume production lines in the 40s, like the 14 SU-26 built in '41.
>KV-2
1939 design but somewhat accurate of we ignore it's substantially heavier weight.
>SU-122/152
1942
>ISU-152
1943

The early Panzer IVs are the most valid argument but germany also was the most on point in terms of tank use and design in the latter interwar period although it was barely armored.

>just a bad design
Well yeah I sure do hope tanks from the late 30s to mid 40s are better than a tank that was prototyped in 1927.
Replies: >>64015677
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:36:00 AM No.64015663
1722785381310739
1722785381310739
md5: 0cec5ac42203f977fcb4800df7a23cbc๐Ÿ”
>>64015595
>>64015600
>>64015618
according to War thunder the hull gun actually has a better penetration than the turret gun after about 500 meters

inb4
> war thunder
feel free to provide an actual source
Replies: >>64015685
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:44:15 AM No.64015677
>>64015652
Sure, now check the dates of the original guns/howitzers they adapted for those tank, most of them are 10-50 years old with few changes.
The gun is ok, the difference is the mounting, you don't need years to develop it, specially with a turret. French did it right in the C2 and their TD, in very short time.


>SU-122/152
>1942
>ISU-152
>1943
And they only needed ~2 months to design the casemate, gun mounting and gun mantlet. It isn't complex, just a conscious decision to make a mediocre mounting to restrict the use of that gun. Americans did the same with their HV 76.2 mm and the HE shells.
Is that hard to understand? stop blaming the gun itself or the hull, blame the retard that created the requirements for that "thing".
Replies: >>64018462
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 10:47:39 AM No.64015685
>>64015663
Lower velocity projectiles with high ballistic coefficient (heavy and long) lose its speed slower than smaller, lighter and faster projectiles, if the 500m is correct or not idk.
Anonymous
7/22/2025, 1:21:32 PM No.64015946
>>64015004
Why wouldn't the driver/gunner not notice be able to notice and adjust for that?
He doesn't have to break focus to switch between driving and gunning like the commander has to when using the turret's gun.
Anonymous
7/23/2025, 12:31:04 AM No.64018462
>>64015677
And? the french based theirs on an equally old gun too sow hat? Doesn't change that there were advancements in engine construction and metallurgy.
>And they only needed ~2 months to design the casemate
More like 8 months and only as a modification of an older existing tank design. Unlike with the Char B1.
Replies: >>64018904
Anonymous
7/23/2025, 2:04:45 AM No.64018853
>>64011775
>Japanese bought the Saint-Chamond
No they didn't? Do you have a source on this?
Anonymous
7/23/2025, 2:20:19 AM No.64018904
>>64018462
>The project was designated "KV-14"[7] and assembly of the first prototype (called "Object 236") began on December 31, 1942. It was completed after 25 days. Plant trials of "Object 236" began on January 25, 1943. After a number of successful plant tests the more stringent state tests began. "Object 236" succeeded again. On February 14, 1943 the State Defense Committee accepted it for Red Army service and immediately launched it into mass production at the Chelyabinskiy Kirovskiy Zavod

>older existing tank design. Unlike with the Char B1.
So many years to design that gimped hull gun.