>Germany's largest naval construction project since 1945, the F126 frigate project, is characterised by considerable delays and cost increases. The delivery of the first frigate, originally planned for 2028, is likely to be delayed until at least 2031. The critical capability gap at a time of heightened geopolitical tensions has sparked a debate about a possible cancellation of the billion-euro project and an exploration of possible options. In view of the perceived threat from Russia, time is becoming a decisive criterion. A reassessment does not exclude the consideration of bold alternatives - including the role of maritime unmanned systems.

>The F126 frigate, also known as the Niedersachsen class, is intended to replace the ageing Brandenburg-class frigates (F123) and serve as a multi-purpose combat ship for global operations. The original order for four ships, worth €5.5 billion, was awarded to the Dutch Damen Shipyards Group in June 2020. By awarding the contract, Damen committed to generating a large part of the added value in Germany. Accordingly, the construction was to be carried out with Blohm&Voss, which belongs to the Naval Vessels Lürssen Group (NVL).

>With the option for two more ships in June 2024, the total order value rose to around EUR 9.8 billion.

(1/?)

>everyone wants to make super duper do everything warships with massive bloat and cost increases
yamato-syndrome

>The main reason for the project's difficulties is said to be massive problems with the IT interfaces and the transfer of construction plans between Damen Naval and the German subcontractors. At least according to the official language. Mastering the French Dassault software, which is essential for the design drawings, is causing difficulties and leading to extensive reworking by the contractor itself and at the German shipyards. This has led to a standstill in the detailed design phase, delaying the delivery of the first unit by at least two years. Insiders are now assuming four years. Members of the German parliament now see the project as a failure and are calling for it to be cancelled and for a national solution to ensure the navy's operational capability.

>The financial implications are severe. Documents from the German Bundestag show that a cash flow of 1.829 billion euros is already demonstrable in the context of the F126 project - a sum made up of actual expenditure for 2020, 2021 and 2024 as well as target estimates for 2022 and 2023. These funds are likely to include advance payments for planning, infrastructure or technology transfer. The discrepancy between the public presentation and the documented budget estimates raises questions about transparency.

(2/?)

>The delay has far-reaching consequences for Damen Naval itself. According to reports, the company is in ‘acute financial distress’ as interim payments from the client, which are linked to deadlines and the achievement of milestones, have been suspended. This not only has an impact on the F126 project, but also on other major Damen orders, such as the anti-submarine frigates for the Netherlands and Belgium. A cancellation of the F126 project would not only mean significant financial losses in the billions, but also serious reputational damage for Damen Naval and potentially far-reaching consequences for the European defence industry.

>Legal and political challenges would arise if the project were to be cancelled. Depending on the contract, parts of the funds could be reclaimed, particularly if Damen fails to fulfil its contractual obligations. Relevant examples from the defence industry show that reclaims can result in lengthy international legal disputes. On the other hand, design plans, completed fuselage sections or equipment could, if appropriate and technically feasible, be adopted for other programmes (such as a modified F126/MEKO extension type). The production of two aft sections was started and partially completed in Wolgast.

(3/?)

>>64002668
it's massive, but underarmed
imo a cancellation would be good
I'll post the part of the article about possible alternatives too

>Option 1: New start by German consortium

>In view of the ongoing problems, there are increasing calls for the project to be cancelled. Members of parliament such as Bastian Ernst (CDU) are calling for the contract with Damen Naval to be cancelled and for the project to be restarted under a purely German industrial consortium led by TKMS - together with NAVAL VESSEL LüRSSEN (NVL) and GERMAN NAVAL YARDS. This option would not only strengthen the German shipbuilding industry, but could also lead to a consolidation of the shipyard landscape in Germany through mergers or takeovers.

>The question of whether a German consortium could continue the project in the event of Damen Naval's insolvency is a complex one. It is true that German industry has the necessary expertise, as demonstrated by the involvement of Blohm+Voss, Peene-Werft and German Naval Yards as subcontractors in the F126 project. TKMS, which was already competing for the F126, also has proven frigate types such as the MEKO A200 in its portfolio, which could be adapted to the requirements from Berlin, Koblenz and Rostock. The challenge may lie in the simultaneous burden of the F127 frigate construction programme, which TKMS wants to build as general contractor. It would not be easy to manage two projects of this size at the same time, even if existing designs were used. The BMVg's preferred prioritisation has not yet been made public.

(4/?)

>Option 2: F127 as the high-end solution with a long start-up time

>Parallel to the F126 crisis, the F127 frigate project is progressing. These ships are designed to replace the F124 Sachsen class and are due to enter service from the mid-2030s. Their main task is state-of-the-art air defence - engagement of air targets including a contribution to defence against ballistic and hypersonic missiles. With a displacement of around 10,000 tonnes and the integration of the American AEGIS combat system with 64 vertical launch cells (VLS), they will close a crucial capability gap.

>TKMS and NVL entered into a joint venture for the construction of the F127 in September 2024. The utilisation of the TKMS-owned shipyard in Wismar is intended to ease the pressure on other German naval shipyards. However, despite the political urgency and the creation of industrial conditions for construction to begin as early as 2025, the F127 is not a quick solution. Its complexity and dependence on long-range items such as the Aegis system mean that it will not be able to close the immediate capability gap caused by the F126 delays. In any case, there is a serious conceptual difference between F126 and F127.

(5/?)

>Option 3: MEKO A200 as a pragmatic interim solution

>One alternative being discussed is the rapid procurement of MEKO A200 frigates. The proven and modular design from TKMS is already in use in various navies around the world. With a displacement of around 3,700 tonnes, it is significantly smaller than the F126 or F127, but offers the potential for faster implementation. TKMS has already shown that these ships can be built in a relatively short time, which would allow for a rapid expansion of the fleet.

>The MEKO A200 is suitable as a multi-purpose frigate for anti-submarine defence and can be equipped with sonar systems and torpedo launchers. It could provide a basic ASW capability faster than the delayed F126.

>The decision in favour of the MEKO A200 could also send a signal to German naval shipbuilders. Although not a complete replacement for the ambitious F126 and F127 programmes, it would be a pragmatic bridging solution to alleviate the acute capability gaps.

(6/?)

>Option 4: The disruptive power of maritime unmanned systems

>In view of the acute capability gaps and long procurement cycles for manned large-scale platforms, maritime unmanned systems are becoming increasingly important as an interim solution. Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), surface vehicles (USVs) and underwater vehicles (UUVs) offer a promising opportunity to close gaps cost-effectively and with less risk to human personnel.

>UAVs can be used for reconnaissance, surveillance and other ISR tasks (Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance) maritime surveillance and search and rescue operation. Their operating costs are considerably lower than manned aircraft; an MQ-9B SeaGuardian, for example, costs around USD 5,000 per hour, compared with around USD 35,000 for a manned maritime patrol aircraft.

>USVs are revolutionising naval warfare through mine countermeasures, reconnaissance, anti-submarine warfare and surface combat. Their ability to operate in dangerous environments and provide real-time intelligence is invaluable. The war in Ukraine has impressively demonstrated the combat value of kamikaze USVs and accelerated their development. A prototype Sea Hunter USV was built at a cost of $20 million, with operating costs estimated at $15,000 to $20,000 per day - a fraction of the cost of a destroyer.

(7/?)

>The crisis surrounding the F126 project should be seen more as a wake-up call for the German defence organisation. It is a further setback for the already battered navy. A cancellation would be a tour de force for armaments cooperation in Europe and would raise new questions about future major international projects. Which is already the case due to the imbalance of the F126 project.

>On the other hand, the F126 case highlights the need to radically reform procurement processes and find more flexible, faster solutions.

>Accelerating the F127 programme is strategically essential, but not a short-term answer. An exit from the Damen Treaty and a national alternative programme such as MEKO A200 could provide a pragmatic bridge to increase presence and secure essential capabilities. A solution that is associated with financial, legal and industrial policy risks. However, there is much to be said in favour of a pragmatic solution that can be implemented by German shipyards, for which political consensus and the willingness to make difficult industrial policy decisions are a prerequisite.

>An additional option for bridging the capability gaps in the transition period could lie in the determined and accelerated integration of maritime unmanned systems. The naval inspector is in favour of this in Course 2025. Vice Admiral Jan C. Kaack sees a hybrid fleet strategy that synergistically combines large manned platforms with a growing fleet of autonomous systems as the way forward.

>In addition to financial investment, this means a cultural shift towards greater agility and a willingness to take risks in procurement.

(8/9)

>The observation of the Chancellery's behaviour looks like a farce from the realm of real satire. Table.Security.Briefings reported on 16 July that the Chancellery had no position on the F126 issue. In view of a not unrealistic opportunity to use the incident as an opportunity to consolidate the shipyard landscape in Germany and perhaps beyond, industrial policy decisions appear to be ignored here.

(9/9)

full article: https://archive.is/kykdg

personally I hope it'll be a mix of MEKO A200 frigates + unmanned systems

we've had enough overweight and underarmed frigate failures now

Why do German ships end up ridiculously oversized, yet hilariously underarmed?

>>64002822
only explanation I have is due to the experience of international stabilization missions. larger ships = more crew comfort + more endurance, plus you don't need heavy weaponry for fighting pirates or helping in crises. Germany used to have fast attack craft in the Cold war, those were replaced by much heavier corvettes with still the same armament though.

>>64002822
Crew living standards are so high that the vessels are more akin to luxury cruise liners than warships.

>>64002841
>muh international ngubu pacification missions
Has nobody told krautgov those are fake and gay?
Besides, you don't want fucking 10k ton destroyer-sized OPVs to do that. You want a modern version of the old colonial light cruisers from the 20s. Small (~3k+/- tons) and cheap, and with just enough weaponry to swat down the occasional drone and cruise missile (one 8x VLS cell for quad-packed medium AA missiles, one Mk 49 with RIM-116, one MGS or equivalent flak-style CIWS, one 57 or 76 mm gun firing guided AA ammo, a couple of interceptor drones to knock down anything staying too far for guns, but not worth wasting a missile on).

>>64002850
That just seems like a bad regulations issue. You can't feasibly import civvie crew comfort standards directly into military equipment. Cost, reliability, durability etc. are equally, if not even more, important variables.
As unfortunate as it might sound, they need to downgrade crew comfort standards to more economically manageable levels.

>>64002874
>Has nobody told krautgov those are fake and gay?
>Besides, you don't want fucking 10k ton destroyer-sized OPVs to do that. You want a modern version of the old colonial light cruisers from the 20s. Small (~3k+/- tons) and cheap, and with just enough weaponry to swat down the occasional drone and cruise missile (one 8x VLS cell for quad-packed medium AA missiles, one Mk 49 with RIM-116, one MGS or equivalent flak-style CIWS, one 57 or 76 mm gun firing guided AA ammo, a couple of interceptor drones to knock down anything staying too far for guns, but not worth wasting a missile on).

the government was/is (still, to an extent) fucking retarded basically. Probably the shipyards told them huge ships that cost billions and take years to design/produce is exactly what they need. not like they would have an ulterior motive.

>>64002883
>not like they would have an ulterior motive.
But it's not like this is some smash&grab by grifty lobbying shipyards. Krautgov has been doing this for a long time. The F125 class also has shit weaponry and sensors for its size.

>>64002658 (OP)
Damen doing what Damen does best: combining design flaws with cheap modules and having them built by the cheapest europeans (romanians) to keep highest margin imaginable, even if it means some deadlines need to become flexible. I wonder how the court responds to them doing business with russia.

I like how quick they are to put all the blame on Damen. Advantage of hiring a foreign designer I suppose.

>>64002822
in this case, it seems like they wanted long range and endurance + enough firepower to down common threats. 64 essm is fairly potent and can defend against almost everything outside of ballistic missiles; it can also be used for anti-surface reasonably well.

>>64002922
No, it's a retarded hit piece. And your post is fucking retarded. Damen just like every other European shipbuilder worked with the Russians in the civilian sector prior to the invasion and they never even worked in the military sector for them unlike German MTU and Finnish Arctech. The French even sold Russia two ships that were used in the invasion. Damen delivers ships for many governments and only the German project is having problems. As per usual as Germans always have problems.
Why contract Damen and have zero plans for what to do when the design is delivered? It is highly specialized software, obviously you can't then demand that they should have used German software kek. As far as I see Damen is the only party that delivered. The real lesson is: Don't work for the German government.

>>64002975
>The real lesson is: Don't work for the German government.
a hundred times this

>>64002668
no
its your typical germany meko bullshit
>literally 10.000 tones
>16 vls

>>64003010
it's still definitely overweight and bloated for a glorified patrol frigate, so it fits the criteria.

>>64002975
>>64002997
so true Polish sisters POLSKA GUROM

>>64002975
>The French even sold Russia two ships that were used in the invasion
That's not quite right. France built two modern Mistral-class helicopter docks for the Russian navy that could have been used in the invasion but they cancelled the deal in 2014 and eventually sold the ships to Egypt.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36433948

>>64002822
>>64002841
Why don't you fucks ever bother to do research? This is Wikipedia tier. The reason why it displaces 10k is because of the requirement to be away from home port for 2 years without support. That means spares, workshops that can fabricate any component, decent crew accommodation.

>>64002850
That's just not true.


>>64002874
I'm actually impressed by your absence of second order thinking. Anon, what did those light colonial crushers have?

Colonies. Specifically, overseas ports and facilities that are controlled by the colonial nation. Guess what Germany lacks? Overseas bases. They need the class to be self-sufficient for their deployment cycles. Unbelievable you couldn't abstract that out from your own post.

>>64003040
I'm Dutch en ik kan het bewijzen ook fietsendief
it's not my fault that german public entities are filled with autists that are more concerned with making sure that a thousand page book or rules and procedures is followed to the letter instead of getting things done

>>64002975
>t. not dutch nor ever served in a navy that is primarily Damen
Ah, you could've just lead with that. Would have saved us some time.

>>64003192
They wouldn't be Germans otherwise.

It looks cool and I like the cooperation with the Danes but it's probably for the best to cancel it. We need a "Frigate" like the F127 class.

>>64003358
imo we should cancel it, buy MEKO A200 instead, buy a bunch of unmanned naval vessels too and focus on F127 and U212 CD.

>>64002658 (OP)
Hope that 10,000 ton frigate with 16 VLS-cells gets cancelled.

>>64003567
F125 class has already been built, but why? 16 VLS is more than enough for it's role.

Too long but Germany's problem is that whenever they get new government they decide we will do Y instead of X and X gets axed and usually when its mostly done. Thus Rheinmetall and other companies pretty much refuse to sell anything to germany unless its small batch over 2-3 years because next retard in charge will say that Y is useless we will get Z. This is why prices per units in those contracts are insane.

>>64003602
not true, arms contracts don't usually change much with the governments in Germany. The problem is that Germany tended to make hyperspecific demands rather than buying off the shelf.

>>64003184
>Guess what Germany lacks? Overseas bases. They need the class to be self-sufficient for their deployment cycles. Unbelievable you couldn't abstract that out from your own post!

So, your envisioned use case is: Germany will send its most advanced warship, to the other side of the planet, where it has no access to friendly or neutral posts.

Where is this place and why would Germany send a ship there?

The German economy seems to be doing well, with the army and navy both expanding dramatically.

>>64003184
>That means spares, workshops that can fabricate any component!

"Das Komputer is kaput. Maken sie eine new one."

"Mein Kaptain. Steiner..."

>>64003823
My use case? It's their use case. Germany has an interest and ongoing trade protection commitment (Operation Atalanta or Operation Ocean Shield). Like every other western nation.

It is a waste of an advanced AAW ship plinking Somalians, hence F125 as a contribution.

>where it has no access to friendly or neutral posts.
It isn't just about access. Getting port side access for supplies is one thing. It's another about commercial, diplomatic and logistical arrangements for repair or technical work. Look at the extent of the US and British logistical footprint in the ME. That's all pre-agreed, pre-positioned and paid for. Germany would need to organise that for a singular ship deployments. They obviously concluded that the ship being more self-sufficient was the better solution.

>>64003390
this. f126 is an abomination that should've been canceled long ago. 212cd with tyrfing supersonic cruise missile can easily take over the role of sea-based naval deep strike
> t. pic related

>>64003902
(2)
though no VLS and only 6 torpedo tubes is a big let down

No wonder, Jermany is broken af

>>64003902
>>64003906
torpedo tube launched missiles are fine too

>>64003919
Neat photos anon, but the British operated with tubed torpedo landstrike for the last 20 years -- and now they're look at having both surface and sub strike so idk.

>>64003892
> Operation Atalanta or Operation Ocean Shield!

And during those two years on patrol Germany has no access to friendly or neutral ports. So the ship has to be fukhuge to carry two years of cabbages and penny fuses? That's the scenario you envision actually happening?

> Look at the extent of the US and British logistical footprint in the ME.

Has Germany been able to access those ports so far or not?

>>64003928
you mean they want vls launched cruise missiles from submarines now? otherwise I don't get your point. The French are using tube-launched MdCN from their Suffren subs too.

>>64003931
>And during those two years on patrol Germany has no access to friendly or neutral ports.
Again, it isn't just about access.

>So the ship has to be fukhuge to carry two years of cabbages and penny fuses?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: No. Food stores aren't the issue, as you can access ports to resupply, but technical work like overhauling an engine or replacing/repairing a radar panel takes stores of special components and workshops. Most warships can do this to a degree, but the F125, can do it to a greater degree than others.

>That's the scenario you envision actually happening?
Again, not my scenario. It's the German DoD -- and it's currently happening. All F125 are in service.

>>64003184
Anon, the idea is retarded.
Like, genuinely retarded. The kind of sincerely retarded only a planner with no real fucking idea of actual naval ops would conjure up.
Literally no navy does what krautgov wants these ships to do. Everybody else uses fleet oilers (or whatever equivalent). It's been knows for decades that it's better to have dedicate fleet replenishment ships, rather than bloatmaxx your combat vessel to carry a bunch of extra shit.
And it's not like krautgov didn't get the memo. It's just that they went for the typical kraut miserly pennypinching and decided against fleet replenishment tankers, because in their minds it was cheaper to just blob the supplies onto the frigate itself.
In doing so, they, once again, as they did previously on several occasions, have proven themselves penny wise and pound foolish. A krautgov staple.

>>64002970
Damen subcontracted kraut yards for the F126. Had they built them in Romania, they would've likely be ready by now.
Missing equipment and needing hull patches, but ready.

>>64004027
Right, it's not just about the supplies. It's the workshops to fabricate.

>>64002874
>That just seems like a bad regulations issue. You can't feasibly import civvie crew comfort standards directly into military equipment. Cost, reliability, durability etc. are equally, if not even more, important variables.
>As unfortunate as it might sound, they need to downgrade crew comfort standards to more economically manageable levels
Nah fuck that, you mutts can stick with your dogshit accom.

>>64004045
Fabricate what? Turbine blades for the engines? Microprocessors for the combat systems? Precision electrical motors for various mechanisms?
Somehow, I doubt they have the equipment to do so. It just sounds like krautgov cope regarding my previously mentioned pennypinching.

>>64004078
I have no idea, but that's the stated requirement of the classes build -- unless you're willing to assert that the tonnage is composed of water tanks. That displacement indicates they did install extensive workshops.

>>64004078
Informed opinion from the guy:

>I used to work on merchant marine ships (military sea lift command) for emergency voyage repair. I also worked a fair bit on private ships, mostly Exxon's ships. Every single ship had at the very least a mill and a lathe. However not once did I encounter a ship that actually had any tooling to get actual work done. There is no way that a trained seaman would have the skills to operate anything beyond a drill press and that's really pushing it to be honest. All machine shop work would be done on shore. The ship would even pay for helicopters to ferry the parts back and forth before they would make them in their own machine shop. It is far easier to get on the phone and have someone else do the job then go into that shop and try to figure out how to turn on the mill.

So yeah, doubt those spaces on Der Kaisers Shippe are repair shops.

>>64004212
Who or what are you citing? I don't know what this exactly proves in relation to the F125s? They outright stated being able to do self-maintenance is a requirement for the ship design.

>>64004231
Anon, *every* ship must be able to do self-maintenance, except for those banzai charge fast attack craft, who aren't intended to survive after they launch their missiles.
It's just that there is a hard limit to *what* you can feasibly maintain, regardless of on-board facilities.

>>64004231
Cite: Some random on R*. You could have googled the text to find that out. So, to the degree that anyone on the internet is real, that's data. Do you have anything to support your "those are workshops" theory? Pictures, zeemann stories?

>>64004264
>Anon, *every* ship must be able to do self-maintenance, except for those banzai charge fast attack craft, who aren't intended to survive after they launch their missiles.
Yes, I said this in >>64004025

>It's just that there is a hard limit to *what* you can feasibly maintain, regardless of on-board facilities.
Yes, obviously.

>>64004314
It substantiates nothing. It's citing a different organization. One which has extensive shore-side facilities. Not the Germany navy -- which has no such facilities -- hence the reason for the greater self-maintenance requirement. You're actual denial of reality. We have a public statement of that requirement, and no such news of the class's conops changing. In build or deployment. Not even mentioning the 10k displacement, if not made up of extra workshops and component stores, is therefore what?

If the class's conops has changed, fine, but point to something that states it.

>>64004375
Anon, most of the shit which actually matters, see my post here: >>64004078 cannot be fabricated onboard. So the whole "extensive maintenance facilities" cope is fake and gay, just like the entire krautgov (and, amusingly, 100% of the AfD).

>>64004410
So no proofs? Gotcha.

>>64002658 (OP)
It might be over. Damen is also writing red numbers right now but iirc the hulls are already done.

>>64004466
>the hulls are already done.
no they're not

>>64004375
May we see those requirements? A document that says Das Shippe muss habben? That would clear up the issue.

TIA

>>64004508
Whose "we" you schizo? You can find it referenced on nearly every article on the class.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/02/german-navy-indo-pacific-deployment/
>The ship has also faced significant criticism over the very bespoke design of a “low intensity warfare”-combatant. The idea behind their inception was to perform missions of up to two years duration in theatre. The Navy envisioned the relevant threat level as shaped by counterinsurgency-, antipiracy- and other stabilization task-environments. Nevertheless, given the political and diplomatic focus of the German Indo-Pacific-deployments and the nautical distances involved F125 is seen by some observers including the Navy as the most effective design for this mission.

>>64004078
Broom rifles

>>64004553
So, nothing on your shipboard manufacturing hub theory.

Look. You'll never shift because this is the internet, so how about we just apologize, say you were always correct that these ships have vast workshops and.scores of trained machinists and can make anything.

There. Now next topic.

>>64002658 (OP)
>11 year construction period
Shamfu dispray, i bet they can't even pick it up by hand.

>>64004027
>>64004045
>Krauts try to do naval flexing
>Immediately design commerce raider

The Konigsberg was a cool ship but it isn't 1914 anymore you doofus people.

>>64004553
Oh, wow, you went around a bunch of ports. So seamanship, much capability.

>>64004676
Keksimus Rex.

>first FCAS
>now this
Reverse Midas touch. Whatever the kraut touched turns to shit (which they love so guess it checks out it always happens)

>>64004553
>German Indo-Pacific-deployments
Holy shit it really is the Konigsberg 2.0

>>64004626
I accept your concession.

Say something nice about Das Schiff.

The gun suite looks okay. Beats the new Connies.

The containers amid ship are a fun quirky bit of flair for summer fun!

>>64004027
>Damen subcontracted kraut yards for the F126. Had they built them in Romania, they would've likely be ready by now.
>Missing equipment and needing hull patches, but ready.
Are you part of the Damen heritage perhaps? They never deliver on time and their shit is seriously subpar. Again, I contest the idea you know anything about Damen or have ever served on any of their ships or seen their shipyards. It's a fucking mess.

>>64002658 (OP)
>US Navy fucks up new frigate
>German Navy fucks up new frigate
Wtf is going on?

>>64004982
>Wtf is going on?
1)Navy well experienced in operations at sea wants their new toy to have everything

and

2)Navy not so well experienced in operations at sea wants their new toy to have everything

>>64004982
>>64005015
Incompetency, laziness, lack of Songun spirit and insufficient rope pulling skills.

>>64004486
>>64004466
AFAIK the shells of the back sections for two ships are completed. These were build by Blohm and Voss in Germany, Damen`s german subsidiary. If the german navy decides to go for a modified MEKO A200, to bolster the anti-submarine capabilities, these sections might get reused.

There are also rumours that Damen didn`t pay their german subcontratcors GNYK and TKMS. So far this has only been confirmed for the inflation compensation payment of € 320 million in 2024 though.

>>64004027
>participate in tender, win tender, invoice € 1.8 billion, never deliver, blame costumer

>>64005063
>So far this has only been confirmed for the inflation compensation payment of € 320 million in 2024 though.
Sounds like the British MoD and Babcock on the Type 31 frigate. Babcock almost bankrupt themselves when the inflation hit lmao.

>>64005086
Sounds just like the NH90

>>64002671
>skill issue in PDM/CAD is the reason for a 5 billion € project failing
LMAO
I've always thought that a lot of these CAD packages have stupid amounts of unnecessary bloat and learning curve, they should just make everything simpler and easier to understand.
FUCK NX what a piece of shit software.

>>64005303
Damen has been in the process of changing to Dassault Systeme's 3DExperience since 2017 please no bully

>>64005455
Damen also apparently asked the Dutch Government for help, because they are only getting paid by the Germans for milestones reached and with the 4 year pushback, this will probably kill the Dutch/Belgian project for a new anti-sub Frigate or even outright kill Damen

>>64005578
There's no room for failure. The ship building market too crowded.

>>64005578
More like Doomen

>>64004861
>2 metal boxes amidship
What's in ze box?

>>64002671
>old boomers involved can't learn new software

what else is new
I'm sure all these people make WAY too much money

>>64004861
>water cannon
KWAB

.

>>64002671
I mean CATIA, DraftSight and Solidworks are utter dogshit and horrible trash. I'm not surprised they destroy productivity but cancelling the whole project over it?

>>64003931
It tells a lot about your position that you refuse to engage and read the well constructed argument of the anon you reply to. Retard.

>>64005303
>>64007049
To put this shit show in perspective.
>F126
>First studies for a class of future surface ships were initiated in 2009
>On 25 March 2013, the detailed requirements were formally decided on
>On 8 June 2015, the fully compliant design was selected
>First delivery postponed from 2023, to 2028, to 2031

Now lets remove 80 years of design technology, project management and system engineering "knowledge".
>A series of conceptual designs was begun by the Reichsmarine in 1932
>The sketch design for what became the Bismarck class was produced by the Construction Office in 1933 and the final design agreed 1936
> Bismarck was laid down in July 1936 and completed in September 1940

I'm no expert, but are we on some kind of idiocracy time? It took 8 years between first sketch to commissioned in the 30's.
Now it takes 6 years to go from a sketch to a "final design". Then another decade to turn that final design into a bunch of incompatible CAD files.
And now at least 6 more years until the first delivery?

>>64005733
Wouldn’t wanna hurt those future German citizens

>>64009459
Unfair comparison because the Bismarck like most Kriegsmarine designs was based on kaiserliche marine designs. A lot of the stuff the Bismarck used was also German WW1 tech like the Krupp cemented armor or the shell hoists which were never upgraded because of Versailles. You also gotta consider that hitler wanted to start a war while current Germany doesn’t or at least demographically can’t.

>Germany's largest naval construction project since 1945
>designs getting bogged down for years
Lmao why don't they just build this again? Instead of spending forever to get a little ship they could have a carrier fleet easy. Did they go full retard and throw out all the blueprints?

>>64009682
>Did they go full retard and throw out all the blueprints?
they just hate their own race and have a competency crisis like most of the world now

>>64009686
Agreed. I think it is clear Western Nations are not cut out to lead, and that once The West stops trying to meddle with Russian affairs things will be better for us

>>64009682
>>64009686
>build a nearly 100 year old design
>easy
shut up retard

>>64009704
No, all the west needs to do is stop importing tens of thousands of people that hate their race, end lgbt shit, and get women out of politics and martial space. and get rid of all zigger organizations and they can fight russia.

>>64009709
Its not easy, but its also true that we have gone backwards in the capability to build things, and certain things will be lost when boomers die

>>64009709
To be clear, I was putting on a bit in regards to the "build Graf Zeppelin", wasnt expecting the competency crisis retard to agree

>>64009751
>competency crisis retard to agree
We do live in a competency crisis, and young men, who are the most valuable group of people in society are put aside so that we may subsidize old people and their ways to create and maintain things will be lost when they die

Germany just can't into building ships

>>64009780
Rule Britania, Britania rules the waves.mp3

>Western nations spend decades building a destroyer
>DPRK spends 400 days
>Minor launch issue causes western destroyer to be scrapped at a cost higher than the entire DPRK national defense budget
>Instead of wasting money DPRK just fixes it with ropes, balloons and manpower


Is anyone else even trying to make warships?

>>64010618
Warship money gets in the way of gibs for 80 IQ invaders who must put the warships together for diversity

>>64009780
Explain

>>64010630
That is a low effort troll post and you know it. You should be ashamed of yourself, do some research and try to do better:

At least educate yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHZ176onOYs

>>64007049
>Dutch Damen shipyard has announced a delayed delivery of the ships due to problems with IT interfaces in the company’s proprietary design and manufacturing software.

The Curse of Custom Software.

>>64009620
>Unfair comparison
On the surface, yes, but
>Bismarck like most Kriegsmarine designs was based on kaiserliche marine designs.
The F126 isn't some radically new design that ignores all previous knowledge right?
>A lot of the stuff the Bismarck used was also German WW1 tech
All the subsystems on the F126 already exist as well. They are not inventing new engines, missiles or radars.
>while current Germany doesn’t [want to start a war]
Could be true, but it sure looks like somebody is pushing for one, while simultaneously setting up countries for failure at said war.

>>64010618
Don't oversell it, and misrepresenting the timelines does not make you more convincing. We have no idea what compromises took place during construction/design, and the subsequent post-accident repairs.

>>64002671
>the French Dassault software, which is essential for the design drawings, is causing difficulties
It would not be a failed Euro defence program if the French weren't a contributing cause somehow

>>64002668
It's what happens when the European procurement numbers are stupid small and personnel are limited.

>>64009459
You forgot 3 years of politics to secure funding.