Who were some of the earliest people coming out against the p320 that got dismissed as contrarians? I sure hope some of the "expert" fags who religiously defended it will come out and apologize for being wrong and recommending it to anyone and everyone

>>64028852 (OP)
Dunno, I just want to know if Ian from forgotten weapons is getting roasted with his defense of p320/m18 video he released years ago.

>>64028943
still mad about his south africa comment, huh?

>>64028959
Mentions sigger p320, still thinking about some shithole nigger country.

>>64028852 (OP)
Me, in the comments of YouTube shorts 2 years ago

>>64028852 (OP)
Some people distrusted SIG since before the P320 came out in 2014 due to issues that the first MPX and MCX had when various militaries in Europe tried them out. I was late to the party, I started distrusting SIG in 2016 not due to the recall but because they were so nonchalant and unwilling to admit to the problems it had.

>>64028943
He made a half assed video sorta calling out Sig and sorta carrying their water. It's a real master class in sophistry (and that's a good thing.)
>https://youtu.be/3iWVs2uD1XY?si=f7xysBOMdG0LNBe-
>>64028959
places b8
>>64028979
falls for said b8 3 minutes and 9 seconds later
Like fucking clockwork.

>>64028959
The man was wrong twice, he should at least apologize for one of those mistakes.

i remember a lot of people complaining about the bore axis being too high and it just being another also ran. the module FCU was neat, too bad it turned out to be its Achille's heel

>>64028852 (OP)
I just hope this results in all SIG's military contracts getting pulled

I am one of those people.

The 516, 556, MCX, MPX, P250, and P365 all had serious teething issues, some that were never resolved. It was inevitable that their policy of letting us beta test would eventually get people killed.

>>64030597
You and me both. I was interested in Sig in 2016 when I wanted a P224, but that was when I learned how garbage the company had become and I've been shitting on them ever since. The P320 has always been a half-assed conversion of a P250, it's never been anything more than a "good enough" pistol, so I've known nuSig was shit for almost 10 years now.

>>64029584
FCU was stolen from Steyr and Beretta had one too before the P365

>>64028852 (OP)
Sig is such a fucking joke of a company it's literally unbelievable. It's run by literal jews, former generals and redneck retards with no history of manufacturing but they LARP as the esteemed swiss/german cold war company. Even gun people aren't aware that it's literally not the same company, it was an importer that took the mantle. If some literally who started importing Glocks in the late 90s and then Glock went out of business and the importers started making their own designs calling them Glocks, what in the fuck makes them Glocks?

Sig makes products with indian parts that kill their users (if they even work) and somehow attained a reputation of quality up until like two years ago due to running cancel culture on anyone in the industry who spoke out.

Literally a movie couldn't more of a trope

>>64030987
>literally
>literally
>literally
>literally
shit I'm drunk

>>64030987
Nigger you have taken this shit way too personally

>>64029605
Not how that works. The most drastic action they can take is to mothball the 320s and then pay some new company for replacements, but they'll end up paying them both. They'll probably force a recall + upgrade instead

Ya muddah
Fuck ya
mudda

>>64028852 (OP)
So fucking what if Cletus had a discharge. Those things happen. In the 'big picture' it is a non-issue.

>>64031104
NTA but I think more people should take company communications more personally instead of holding them to a different and much lower standard of truth and stuff in their communication.

Imagine you go to your LGA to get a new duty gun. You know the owner, John, he goes to your church, you see him at the store, sometimes you're at the same BBQs. He talks you through what he's got on offer, and recommends a Glock because he says they're reliable, well made, <insert here all the things that Sig has said about the P320 etc>. Based on what he told you, you judge that the Glock is the best value for your needs and buy it.

But, later, some of the people who bought Glocks from John's store had them randomly go off, shooting them or their kids or whatever. People take Glocks from John's store apart and find out that he's been taking the original Glock Brand Glock parts out and replacing them with cheaper and lower quality knockoffs, then reselling the original parts to make a slightly larger profit on each Glock sale.

You would be fucking pissed at John, not just because he sold you a shitty gun, but because he lied about it and deliberately cheated you. You'd probably be way more pissed at him for lying and cheating you and betraying your trust than you would be at the actual shittiness of the gun or the few dollars he effectively defrauded you of or the extra risk he placed you and your family in. You'd call him a piece of shit and tell him to go fuck himself when he rocked up at a BBQ and you'd make sure everyone at church knew he was untrustworthy so that he couldn't steal collection money or whatever.

Yet companies (and politicians) do this all the time and people mostly just shrug and go "Oh don't take it personally." No fuck that. You should get fucking pissed and hold it against them. If you don't impose punitive social costs on lying then truth only has transactional value and you're speedrunning low-trust banana republic.

>>64028852 (OP)
The thing is, faggot, they were contrarians because there was no evidence. They were just saying shit for clicks and memes. There's still no good evidence because still not a single gun can be made to do it.

>>64031302
This reminds me of that long post from anon who learned mandarin.

>>64031400
Can you link it? I'm curious about it, having made an effort myself to learn more about Chinese people firsthand a few years ago.

>>64031187
Lawfags, chime in. At what point would force majeure be plausible? Is there anything else a clever lawyer could try to get out of the contract?

>>64031670
Gross negligence. Sig will never allow anyone the evidence to prove it in court, and absent that evidence you go tit for that wasting tons of money on dueling expert witnesses debating Sigs design flaws which can go either way depending on the judge/jury. Injury suits will chip away at Sig I expect there are some technicalities around military contractors declaring bankruptcy. Most of the damage has already been done, Sigs rep is in tatters and it won't get better. The real question is will Cohen face justice and the answer is not likely.

>>64031586
I don't have it saved, but the gist is he learned mandarin so he became (unwillingly) the dedicated guy dealing with the chinks in his company's business.
Doing business in China is like walking in a minefield, full of bait-n-switches and you can't do anything about it unless you know someone important there. He was so tired of it but he was stuck because he was the only one speaking mandarin.

>>64031706
>The real question is will Cohen face justice and the answer is not likely.
Face justice for what though? There needs to be something specific and supported by evidence. I doubt there would even be a provable link between any specific act or omission by Cohen and the design/QC issues. It's clear, ultimately, that it's his strategy for the business (running razor thin margins, maybe even taking losses, for market share) that's the root cause of other things that have gone wrong, but that's not illegal (even though it probably should be in more circumstances), and it's not at all clear that he has any closer connection to things that have gone wrong than that.

>>64031670
Like the other guy said, you would have to prove gross negligence or an intent to deceive. Both of these are extremely unlikely since it's very possible that Sig legitimately did not anticipate the problem. Additionally, Sig was very proactive in shielding themselves from the ways they can be litigated against (which by the way is not evidence). The government forcing them to upgrade the money existing M17/18s. Probably by scrapping the old 250 slide and striker assembly and replacing it with something closer to the 365.

>>64031302
Everyone lies and Sig Saur is not a person like your theoretical John. Sig Saur is, at minimum, a dozen or so important people not necessarily moving in concert

>>64031714
Oh, right. Yeah that's pretty standard low-trust society stuff that you'll find in most countries that aren't culturally western. The only real difference, as far as I can tell, with China is that they're smarter and more industrious than nearly all of those non-western countries so we're exposed to their behaviours in a way that we aren't with most others.

>>64031743
That's business in western society too. Businessmen are ratfucks everywhere ans always have been

>>64031740
>Everyone lies
No, they don't, and the emerging expectation in some western countries that they do is a cultural import from places that don't have cultures that are nice to live in.
>and Sig Saur is not a person like your theoretical John. Sig Saur is, at minimum, a dozen or so important people not necessarily moving in concert
Sig Saur has all the elements of a real person that are important to the conversation. Sig has an identity that is separate from the individuals at the company, and that identity does business, communicates, enters contracts, maintains a reputation, participates in society etc. Fred "Small Arms Engineer" Smith or Jenny "Assembly Line Worker" Doe do not make and sell guns to me, Sig Saur does. Dave "Marketing Exec" Jones doesn't tell me that Sig pistols are safe and high quality when he produces and distributes an ad or social media post I read - his name isn't on it and my trust in him is never at risk if he lies, Sig's is. Companies are entities, and those entities have both legal and practical personhood. Companies don't cease to exist as social and legal entities just because the people in them might not agree or act in the same way.

>>64030597
Don't forget the CROSS and how they managed to design a bolt action rifle with an unsafe trigger in the year of our lord two thousand and nineteen

>>64031777
If you really believe that lying is some kind of foreign concept to European culture, you're a fucking idiot living in some kind of fantasy and there's no point in having this conversation with you

>>64031753
I don't agree and that hasn't been my experience. I think that view could only be formed from interacting in wells that have already been thoroughly poisoned. There are very clear differences in the level of honesty that a businessman or business from, say, Sweden or England displays vs one from, say, China or India.

>>64031786
>If you really believe that lying is some kind of foreign concept to European culture
Are you fucking autistic and only able to comprehend things as either black or white? Of course there is lying in European culture, but there is far (far) less tolerance of it so getting caught carries much higher cost, and it is commensurately less rare.

Lies of a character and scale that are commonplace in business transactions in places like China would be instantly career ending in most western business contexts. Instant blackballing from entire industries and occupations levels of career ending.

>>64031810
>less rare.
*rarer (and less severe).

>>64031810
I've been corpo for years, bruh. Everyone is bad and always has been. Pretending otherwise is willful ignorance

>>64031670
You don't need to be clever when you are the feds. Just throw an army of auditors at them and find a few cases of inappropriate charges against contract funds and 'potential' prohibited country sourced components and whatever other ticky-tack bullshit comes up. Use that as an excuse to perpwalk a few midlevel executives and blacklist the company as a DoD contractor.

I absolutely treasure my German-made Sig Sauer P226 X5 Allround. I wonder what the people who used to work at Eckernforde

>>64031787
>>64031810
The people who have screwed my business over the most have been other Americans.

>>64031823
Sounds neat. Can you tell us more about it and share a picture?

>>64031670
If I was advising a dept/agency/branch I'd lean on independent testing personally. Sig has a contract to provide pistols that only go off when you pull the trigger; show that they can be discharged otherwise and then dip out. You'll probably never be made fully whole but you won't kill any more people and you'll be difficult to beat in court. This is ultimately a products liability situation and you want to show some evidence that you didn't just jump on the bandwagon.

t. Attorney

>>64031777
I'm going to ignore your other point because Sig has always been a western company, but your analogy is stupid. A person can have intent, ulterior motives, and most importantly they are an independent thinking being. The truth is you don't know who fucked up in this chain, or if they even know where the problem is. It's just emotionally convenient for you

>>64031844
I think this would fall under the rather boring and less dramatic service and repair clauses that are in the contracts. So like, while the Air Force does the routine maintenance on aircraft, if there's found to be something genuinely wrong with the platform, it is the responsibility of the arms manufacturer to take them back and make it right. This has been done many times in the past, just not really with pistols so we don't think about it that way

>>64031836
It's a P226 X5 "Allround," which means it's got a five inch slide and barrel, adjustable target sights, but is still DA/SA as opposed to most of the rest of the X5 (and later X Five) series with single action triggers and a safety. In retrospect I probably should have gone with an SA only one because the price difference wasn't huge between them but I'd loved DA/SA when I first shot it and back in 2014 when I bought it the idea still made a lot of sense to me. I put KN grips on it, it comes with very comfortable black polymer ones but the KNs just fit my hands like they were made for it. It's unholy accurate, I fucking love the look of it, it's still the pistol I pick up and think "that gun was meant for my hands," over anything else I own or have shot.

>>64031905
That's a fair point, but if it is fundamentally defective do you trust the designer to actually fix it?

>>64031947
Damn that's nice. I remember looking at the German X5s back in the day, but by the time I had the money, it was the era of the US Sig garbage. Maybe I'm misremembering, but do you remember an X4? I could have sworn I saw a P229 version called the X4 but I can't find any information on it so I'm wondering if I was hallucinating or something.

>>64031965
I don't think it's a bigger leap of faith than trusting missiles to not detonate on the wing of the fighter using them, even though that has happened before

>>64031965
That's literally how it has always worked. When you're in a government contract, you don't get to be a wary customer

>>64031970
I'm not strong on the prior stuff but I'm pretty sure there was a target version of the P229, maybe P229S or something? That would also be sexy.

>>64028852 (OP)

>>64028852 (OP)
Gunghis Khan had a p320 go off during a range match but no one believed him. I did though

>>64030701
Supposedly George "Crack Cocaine Is My Middle Name" Kellgren came up with the FCU idea first

>>64031706
Well the only justice he can get is to be named by civil lawsuits and for his company to be bankrupted. Or someone gives him a weegee special and drops a P320 at him.

>>64031350
Not yet. The fact it happens often is evidence that Sig guns suck ass or their owners do. Good enough for me

WHERE'S THE LIST OF APOLOGISTS?

NO MORE HIDING, YOU RATS

>>64031729
>Face justice for what though?
Being a piece of shit corporate raider who keeps ruining firearm companies.

>>64031350
>The thing is, faggot, they were contrarians because there was no evidence. They were just saying shit for clicks and memes.
Nah nigga I've just been around long enough to notice patterns and go by feel. If I'm wrong I missed out on the 320 hype train, if I'm right I did well for trusting my instincts and not get Ron Cohen'd.

>>64033265
Meds

I have distrusted the P320 since the drop issue became known. But I've moved away from nu-sig entirely for a few reasons, like the issue with the Cross safety. Plus personal issues with a P322 (shit gun all around), Mosquito (feeding issues, shit trigger), 522 (recoil spring assembly broke twice), and P220 (srt parts broke).