Whatever happened to the General Dynamics RM277? 2 years ago there was talk of it being released to the civilian market and radio silence since

Most people dont want bullpups, especially in an expensive meme caliber

They should just mass issued the URGI and call it a day.

>>64047578 (OP)
>This should have won the NGSW contract
It was a much better service rifle design but wasn't the LMG version significantly worse? The real problem was the entire design of the NGSW contract. They should have nailed down a really good, aggressive cartridge design first, preferably going all the way to telescoped polymer case. Then they should have had the service rifle and lmg be separate tracks that could be won by two different companies (or by the same one if the same one had the best designs). The military should have a perpetual license to 100% of the IP in either case and ability to have anyone manufacture it they wanted, so long as a royalty got paid the originals, but they shouldn't end up beholden to any one company on the manufacturing side.
>2 years ago there was talk of it being released to the civilian market and radio silence since
Honestly there was never any expectation that losing guns would get a civvie version. The economies of scale just would not be there, particularly since they wouldn't have any commonality in cartridge with the military either since the cartridge as different for every single gun in the competition.

>>64047581
A civilian market one would probably be chambered in .308 and Desert Tech manages just fine with bullpups that are popular

>>64047593
Didn't they do that already?

>>64047599
So do a bunch of other bullpup makers. That said:
•While the semi-bullpups are higher price tier by AR standards, we're talking like $1500-2500, not $5000
•All the bullpup makers offer non-battlerifle versions that can be shrunk significantly, which is more in line with the trend in civilian use. Desert Tech's one can be converted to 5.56 and SBR'd down to like 23" OAL, and a big focus with their recent revision was shaving weight.

Whereas the RM277 was designed to meet the military's demand for super velocity armor piercing. It was like 9 lbs and 30" long, and it's hard to see how to easily shrink that without some real effort. It was military infantry accuracy demands. It was really designed around the cartridge. Yeah a 308 or 6.5 version no doubt could work but it's not a clear runaway winner without military economies of scale for the parts.

>>64047598
Here's the thing, the army actually did have the power to do make the winner of the NGSW use a competitor's ammo. I still remember the NGSW winner briefing, where this question was asked. The answer was that they decided not to force sig to use the polycase ammo of Lonestar because that would have required sig to reengineer their guns.

>>64047599
DT's bolt gun is tits. insane accuracy.
I'm less than impressed by their overly heavy semi-auto. If they made a short-action and long-action it would be better and the shorty (223/300blk) would weigh a fucking pound less and probably lose an inch in length.

t. wants a micron, but doesn't like the fact that a tavor jew-gun is shorter.

>>64047611
Only within SOCOM I think. If I remember right it's supposed to be the replacement for sopmod block 2 rifles.

>>64047611
>Desert Tech's one can be converted to 5.56 and SBR'd down to like 23" OAL
they could go even shorter + lighter if they dropped the whole 308-size mag and just focused on 5.56 and/or made a 308 specific variant. At least they dropped their problematic and overly complex ejection system.

>>64047652
So are they just side eject only now? Kinda a shame that was a really neat idea.

>>64047636
There's this guy that makes a custom bullpup chassis for the Remington 700 and Tikka T3 actions for PRS. Bullpup bolt guns make a ton of sense to me, I feel like they should be more common at this point

>>64047599
>Desert Tech manages just fine
they do not

It lost because it's a massive piece of shit that's even worse than the Sig. It has nothing to do with the AR; being belt fed was never a requirement, the Marines are very happy with their mag fed IAR and the Army briefly considered buying them as well, and a belt fed bullpup would be even worse than that piece of shit already was.

>>64047801
>It has nothing to do with the AR; being belt fed was never a requirement
One side had a 20 round mag and the other was a 100rnd belt fed. It's obvious what made the difference.

>the Marines are very happy with their mag fed IAR
Because it actually replaced their M16 rifles, not their m249s.

>>64047815
And they say the marines are where all the retards go. How did the army manage to deflect that label onto them again?

>>64047598
>It was a much better service rifle design but wasn't the LMG version significantly worse?
Box mag LMGs are, allegedly, good enough for the Marines, and the NGSW-AR wasn't the highest priority anyway.

>>64047624
>they decided not to force sig to use the polycase ammo of Lonestar because that would have required sig to reengineer their guns.
*because Sig's 13" battle subcarbine can't possibly make the expected muzzle velocity without Ron's pissin' hot handloads

>>64047815
>One side had a 20 round mag and the other was a 100rnd belt fed. It's obvious what made the difference.
As I said, the difference was that the RM277 was shit. Belts vs mags didn't make the difference, mags need to be swapped more often, but each reload is faster so it average out. The RM277 could actually carry more ammo since it was so much lighter, even considering the weight of two dozen magazines vs four pouches and 400 links.

>Because it actually replaced their M16 rifles, not their m249s.
The M27 replaced the M249 nearly a decade before it replaced the M16.

>>64047688
agreed. the bolt throw takes a couple minutes to get used to and after that its bliss.

>>64047702
explain

>>64047636
>DT's bolt gun is tits. insane accuracy.
Yes, I love my SRS, and I hear good things about the HTI too. That said the SRS is pretty fucking expensive for the role, probably not surprising given the low volume but still. You have to really want it's specific niche features, the bullpup form factor of course but also the barrel swapping and other little bonuses.
>I'm less than impressed by their overly heavy semi-auto. If they made a short-action and long-action it would be better and the shorty (223/300blk) would weigh a fucking pound less and probably lose an inch in length.
FWIW they did in fact shave off a solid pound (more even for some versions) with the latest revision (which they renamed from mdr to wlvrn for some dumb reason). They've finally been dealing with other issues like being able to change gas block position with caliber. But the fact there's still no stable version is a problem. The biggest issue with the mdr was simply the poor quality control. If you got a good gun and/or sent yours back for free warranty repair enough times to roll the dice for a good one it was solid, but they never were able to their qc up to snuff to meet their goals for it.

>>64047672
>So are they just side eject only now? Kinda a shame that was a really neat idea.
It was a decent idea and good system but the manufacturing tolerances required were simply higher than they were ever capable of consistently producing. Sometimes you can fix that on the QA/QC side, sometimes you have to simply accept you're not at that tier of production and simplify the design until it reaches a point you can produce it reliably. Yeah kind of a shame but so it goes. And honestly what I'd really like to see would be someone try out the F2000 ejection system again, that was proven reliable and perfectly front ejecting, even better than the MDR. It's well off patent at this point too.

>>64048087
nta, but I had a 308 mdr and a friend did as well. There were plenty of them that worked fine as designed for 10k+ rounds no problem (my buddies was a-ok). But there was way way too high a percentage that failed badly well before that, including mine. And it always had the most challenges with accuracy and general operation with 308 (even compared to 6.5).

That said, I don't think a serious mature ginormous military manufacturer like GD would have the slightest issues of the kind DT has had. I would consider the MDR (or the Tavor or Keltec's RDB/RFB or the Aug or F2k etc etc) to all prove that an automatic bullpup can be a great gun in terms of form factor, enjoyable to shoot, and work fine, but I definitely would not hold up DT as an example of manufacturing them well.

>>64048248
> barrel swap
this cannot be understated. I went to rebarrel my rem700. It took 15 fucking months for the gunsmith to do it. I heard every excuse imaginable.
During that time I accepted the fact that I will never buy another bolt gun from any brand unless I can rebarrel it myself with tools I have on hand. The SRS has brought a smile to my face every time I've shot it, my only regret is getting 308 instead of 6.5 ManBun, but hey, it'll take 2-3 mins to swap that barrel when the time comes. I think the Q-fix also can swap a barrel in 10-20 mins? Not as easy as the SRS, but a damn bit better than over a fucking year.
When I shoot out that rem700's barrel again the whole gun will go on my recycling bin.

>>64048300
> QC
this is unfortunate.
Even on my SRS out of the box I had to go over every single bolt, apply a little blue loctite and torque it down to spec. The fucking optics pic rail was not tight to spec. Of course it shot 0.5" edge to edge groups with FGMM 308/175gr. Blew my mind because I'm not that good of a shot. Slapping steel at 500 is no challenge at all and 800 is doable if I dont fuck up my wind calls.

>>64048427
>but hey, it'll take 2-3 mins to swap that barrel when the time comes
I actually used a stop watch because I found it so interesting anon: I can do a completely barrel and bolt swap in like 41 seconds flat. Might take an extra 20 seconds if going from short to long action and back since there is an extra spacer to put in. Obviously that's mostly a party trick but it's genuinely surprisingly cool, more so than I'd expected before trying it.

>>64048441
Out of curiosity you have an A2/M2/Covert or one of the initial SRS versions, and if so when did you get it? They said a year ago they'd worked hard to not fuck up that kind of thing as much so hopefully it's improved, but hard to say. Checking torque probably still a good idea along with witness marks. It's a real shame though, they perform so well in spec and it feels so fucking stupid to have left such a (well earned admittedly) bad impression on the public over such a dumb issue.

>>64048466
I've had my SRS over a year, its some kind of transition between an A2 and an M2. I have the full length pic rail of the M2 on the A2 handguard, but not the integrated acra rail. Wonderful gun, but really, how much would it have cost them to have the assembler use their own torque wrench and a pinch of loctite?

my gun and its keeper
>>64047636

>>64048550
Nice gat and nice kat. I have the full M2 with arca myself. And yeah at that level of gun I really don't think it's unreasonable if they actually had someone at DT personally hand inspect each one and check stuff like torque for 10 minutes. Also they included the old version of the manual, and I had to email and ask them for a PDF copy, they seem to not have any support pages on their new website. Little attention to detail issues like that really seem to keep biting DT and it feels so stupid and unnecessary.

Oh well, love it otherwise. I do want to try that mk machining chassis as well if I ever get the chance.

>>64047578 (OP)
Their polymer ammo should have caused an immediate pause on the project and forced everyone to design a weapon around that. It simply is too good of an upgrade to the entire force. You can retroactively upgrade just about any gun in inventory to run cooler by just giving it the polycase ammo and most could take the new 6.8 with just a barrel swap.

>>64047636
I would love to have one but that price man. Hopefully they're around when i finally get a proper paying job and have disposable income

>>64048741
nta but another SRS owning anon and yeah it's brutal, but if you ever do decide to go for it know that DT tends to run a couple of fairly sizable sales per year, like this past spring they had it for 25% off. Which doesn't change it from "stupid expensive", it's still fucking expensive anyway, but $1500 off ain't nothing either, so might be worth waiting for. Also know you can buy everything separately and assemble it yourself if you want, it's no big deal. I bought just the receiver (on sale), then got the bolt, barrel, and mags separately. I knew I wanted custom barrels, and I wanted 8 rnd mags instead of 5, and DT didn't make me pay for their barrel and included mags. There are 3rd parties that will make stuff for you however you like an in effectively any caliber 338 or smaller.

>>64048258
>And honestly what I'd really like to see would be someone try out the F2000 ejection system again

I wholly second that. Perfect ambidexterity with not much downside, it worked great once, can definitely work great again.

>>64047578 (OP)
Program anon here. RM277 lost only because it was 40% more expensive than Sig and because Army wanted a belt fed. It was also a last-second decision by a single person, everyone in the program was really disappointed as most testers liked RM277 more. Lone Star was also more responsive to user feedback - they had stuff like upgraded trigger and better suppressor ready.

Unlike Sig it cleared the original requirements in controllability and velocity. Sig barely cleared the minimum velocity requirement and did not clear the burst accuracy at all.

>>64047578 (OP)
This should still win a back up contract. GD should make and release these for when the SIG furry fails to achieve what it set out to do.

>>64051490
Yeah when I heard about it I decided to base my entire autistic setting on RM277 winning the NGSW, along with some other cool what-if stuff being adopted (PDR, M16A5, F-23, RAH66)

>>64047578 (OP)
Textron should have won and you know it, but the RM277 would have been great too. In an ideal world both Textron and GD/TV would have got contracts for their guns and ammunition, since TV's cartridges are backwards compatible.

>>64047829
By screaming "I'm not retarded!" while smashing their heads against a wall as hard as they can. The Marines have made every objectively correct decision in the past 20 years.
>MARPAT
>M27
>ditching tanks
>extreme use of drones
>missile spam
In contrast the Army has failed miserably.
>multimeme
>M7
>doubling down on tanks
>refusing to issue drones
>not focusing on China
The Army is still fighting the last war while the Marines are fighting the next.

>>64048732
>polymer ammo
They should have just asked, "hey do this for our existing weapons and you have our checkbook." A plug and play upgrade that seriously upgrades the warfighting capabilities NOW and if something goes wrong you can always fall back to legacy ammunition.

>>64051508
>that rifle
Ewwwwwwwww

>>64051516
You are retarded. It's easily one of the sexiest modern rifles, it applies 21st century practical and aesthetic design trends without having any tasteless visual gimmicks.

GD's rifle is similarly tasteful but a little barebones towards the magwell and stock.

>>64051528
>gunslop
Ewwwwwwww

>>64051528
>sexy
>most boring and generic profile of all time
I bet you think bologna and white bread is a culinary masterpiece too don't you. You go past "basic bitch" straight into retarded.

>>64051546
It's unique, there's nothing like it. It's a new near-futuristic aesthetic that incorporates modern finishes and tastefully utilizes polymer furniture. Every exterior element does something useful. It's braindead simple to field strip with captive pins. It's neither front nor rear heavy and uses an extremely consistent design language (e.g. all the vent holes are the same size or just M-LOK.) It's textbook good design, beauty from practicality. Not everything has to look like a Bethesda bastardization of a WWII prototype or overdesigned and expensive to machine hunk of shit with an AR-15 silhouette.

You're a contrarian faggot who stops himself from appreciating good taste because you get off the dopamine rush of hating shit for no reason.

>>64051508
Program anon again - Textron would've won if Army would let them correct the issues (mainly the chamber misaligment and the bent round kaboom) - Army rushed because it was far behind schedule because of corona. If there would be no pandemic the program would've concluded in late 2021, probably with Textron win. Nobody liked Sig.

>>64051583
>unique
That's the most generic looking rifle possible.
>crying about Bethesda
I accept your defeat.

>>64051583
>ejection port in the worst area possible
WTF were they thinking?

>>64048427
Should have had him do a remage conversion and then you could swap barrels on your own.

>>64051593
Actually its not that bad - CT guns have a very consistent ejection pattern. I shot it with my hand directly below and no cases hit my hand. Of course we had instances of users shoving their fingers there but they learned very quickly why its a bad idea.

>>64051604
People put their hands in that position ALL THE TIME, especially when they get tired or are just observing. They could have borrowed a element from the F2000 and had a forward chute under the handguard.

>>64051586
Thank you anon, I'll take your word for it. It's terrible when current events fuck over interesting programs, or when important programs coincide with unfriendly administrations etc. We're lucky we're still getting FLRAA and Artemis. But then again LSAT did take its sweet time.
>>64051589
Fuck you Todd. Shartfield sucks and I pirated Skyrim.

>>64051615
A magwell grip wouldn't block the ejection port. You have to actually shove your fingers into it to block it, and even if it was blocked it would probably still go into battery if you just let the case out. While an F2000 chute would have been cool it would have probably been bulkier, weighed a little bit more, made it less reliable, and made it difficult to completely empty the gun of empty cases (or live cartridges).

>>64051604
How did it feel to shoot? Have you tried the GD?

>>64051653
Recoil was definitely the best with RM277, SRIA system is amazing. Textron was more jumpy although it was still controllable. Sig was and is uncontrollable pos

>>64047624
>The answer was that they decided not to force sig to use the polycase ammo of Lonestar because that would have required sig to reengineer their guns.
No. The answer is you need the high pressure rounds to make the barrel a reasonable length, and polymer ain't it.

Sig's hybrid, or a very long barrel (which forces the bullpup design). That's your choice.

>>64051490
>It was also a last-second decision by a single person,
Who was that if his word weighted more than everyone else?

>>64051922
The chamber supports the pressure everywhere except for the back of the case. Sig uses steel at the back of their case to contain the pressure. the polycase ammo also has a steel rear. So you could just take those cases and load them hotter.

>>64051922
TV cases have been tested up to 90k psi. Army was just afraid of the initially high production costs.

>>64047578 (OP)
Bullpups are gay

>>64051907
Yeah, the full auto recoil didn't look much heavier than a goddamn M4 in videos. The Textron had a really long buffer tube which must have helped too.
We truly live in the worst timeline.

>>64052042
>Army was just afraid of the initially high production costs.
Which is so fucking stupid and the kind of short sighted decision making that has plagued us with long term out of control costs. Universal service cartridges aren't something we change every 5 years, these are decisions that stick. One of the few core advantages of government should in theory be not having to think about next quarter profits and be willing to do basic infrastructure investments that then pay off significantly over the following 10-40 years. This is a great example, some more capital upfront, but then you have not just lower ultimate ammo production costs but also save money on logistics which is no joke either. But no, short term thinking has infected everything now.

>>64052315
Shame about the trigger, though. Garand Thumb said it was a 1/10 bullpup trigger. Makes you wonder if the NGSW should have allowed electronic triggers.

>>64052340
The TV polycase creator once said he'd give the army polycase ammo for free if they'd give him the logistical savings the army would have from suddenly getting 40% lighter ammo.

>>64052554
Hasn't Mormon Tech managed to develop a good bullpup trigger?
Electronic triggers, and eventually electronic firing (priming), are the future anyway. The Marines are already starting to field SMASH 2000L FCSs. The USMC has been getting a lot of things right lately.

>>64052620
It's a legal grey area, so civilian development is limited. It wouldn't take much for the NFA to say that any electronic trigger could easily become a machine gun.

>>64052727
*ATF, not NFA

>>64052727
The civilian market is stuck in a rut. It's amazing how long they've gone without innovating literally anything of note, which isn't surprising seeing how the government and the average room temperature IQ/lower-than-median-income consumer react to innovation; innovation is risky and literally never profitable. It's really up to the serious defense contractors as GD and Textron demonstrated during NGSW, the only contestant not to innovate was the civilian-oriented SIG USA.

Companies like Kel-Tec do innovate a little bit, but their ideas just become ephemeral trends, like the current PDW fad. They're just sidegrades. TV couldn't really sell their ammo on the civilian market without the contract, etc.

Which makes sense, of course. Purely functionally, most people today would be just as satisfied with Colt Single Action Armies and rifled muskets as they are with their modern sporting rifles and Glawks.

>Okay guys we need you design a new cartridge with specifications created from our very niche need to accomplish something in the mountain of Afghanistan and also a rifle that shoots it and it needs to be as cheap as possible
>Also I’m just going to give every contract to my friends who will be giving me infinite blowjobs and hookers after I retire
>Good luck!
If they really gave a shit they would have developed the cartridge first or used ones that already meet or exceed the expectations outlined and then hosted a competition for the rifle. The truth is that it was rigged from the start.

>>64052844
M7 and M17/M18 are two of the more visibly corrupt procurement decisions since the Vietnam war, absolutely wild

>>64052890
M17:
>We need new pistols
>But no one actually cares about pistols, what the fuck are they even used for other than training to use them?
>Sig is a quarter of the price of the others, pistols don't matter anyway, and the P320 has a bunch of contracts already so it must work, just buy the damn thing

M7:
>Textron and GD fail factor 3 (>>64047983), Sig will be many times cheaper over the lifespan of the contract and Congress is already giving the Army shit for signing away their right to repair
>Obviously Sig wins
>Oh wait, TV is taking over for GD since their company literally can't continue to exist without a contract
>I guess we have to actually have the competition then
>RM277 is an utter failure with minute of barn door accuracy
>The spear isn't very accurate either, but that can at least be helped by reducing the excessive power required by the terms of the competition
>Sig can just reduce the pressure of their cartridge, but TV can't do anything about the fact that their gun is literally attached to the frame by a spring
>The final product is worse than the M4, but Congress is talking about just forcing the Army to use whatever guns the Marines use because this is like their twelfth attempt at an M16/M4 replacement and they've never done anything but waste money
>So the Army has to buy the sigger shit just to prove a political point

There was a very clear chain of logic behind both failures. Just because the Army brass is brain damaged doesn't mean they're corrupt.

>>64052980
Both contracts were written to select Sig with minimal oversight. This too is corruption.

>>64052980
Calling RM277 a failure and inaccurate when US Army was starting to write a new manual of arms for it proves you don’t know shit about the program

>>64047578 (OP)
>Bullpup
>Trigger guard is not also a knuckle guard
DOA slop made by incompetents.

>>64053199
Actually it was written for Textron but when they failed a soldier touchpoint after a bent round kaboomed a gun and US Army didn’t let them submit a redesigned gun because there was political pressure to speed up the program Textron voluntarily quit to not scare shareholders

>>64053236
Can you elaborate on the bent round and the chamber misalignment without breaking your NDA? If you aren't bullshitting that is.

>>64053255
What interest do I have in bullshitting? Textron abandoned their CT effort and TV/LSWF is on life support so it’s not like this is a “here’s how TV can still win situation”

CT guns are very accurate if chamber is aligned properly. During NGSW testing some of Textron guns started to become wildly inaccurate - it was caused by combination of wear and environmental conditions causing the chambers to misalign. Another problem was that during one of the soldier touchpoints some grunt loaded a bent round and the gun kaboomed. Textron was having some internal problems and could not give US Army clear answer how and when they can correct those deficiencies. From what I heard from Clark Lindner (head of their CT effort) it was a simple redesign. But because of corona the program was already almost a year behind schedule so US Army decided to go to Phase 2 without Textron.

>>64053314
Please explain GD dropping out at the same time as Textron.

>>64052980
The program was obviously ran for Textron. They were the face of the program from when it was still the NGSAR.

>>64051626
>f2000 chute
>less reliable
Look up the F2000 trials, the only way FN could get a stoppage was to put a dowl rod and hold it in place, anything else gets expelled.

>>64051617
>still bitching about Bethesda
I accept your defeat.

>>64053314
Sorry for accusing you, it's just that there are a lot of attention seekers around. Your posts didn't look like attention seeking in the first place in hindsight. Thanks anon, I hope you participate in future NGSW threads.
>>64053426
The Textron uses a push through feed and eject mechanism, and the cases expand to fill the chamber when they are fired. I imagine the action has to push the expended cases with a decent bit of pressure. Maybe having a case chute that is subject to gravity right in front of the chamber can cause an empty case to get back into the chamber or even half way in, which would cause a failure. Side ejection with no case storage is just more consistent.

>>64053407
GD did not quit but novated the program to LSWF - like with Textron it was shareholder shenanigans

>>64053824
>GD didn't quit, they just quit!

>>64047578 (OP)
>Europe spends the past few decades slowly moving away from bullpups and battle rifles as their service rifles and more toward the intermediate M4 style service rifle platform of the USA
>the USA then switches to a bullpup rifle
would've been pretty funny

>>64047578 (OP)
They should've picked 11.5 PSA ARs

>>64047578 (OP)
Bullpup battle rifles, whatever happened there

>>64053314
Why weren't those issues identified years earlier as part of LSAT?

>>64054552
Because they only exist in his imagination.

>>64054461
>babbies first time seeing a big corp
lol. Companies shift things around to legal subsidiaries and other entities for tax or accounting reasons or the like all the fucking time, that's completely normal and doesn't change the actual control.

>>64054618
It's not a casual restructuring, it's practically a full divestment. The extent of GD's involvement in LS is licensing their IP. They're saying "nothing will ever come of this project and we're done investing in it. If you want to keep going that's fine, you won't achieve anything but if you do we get half of everything plus your firstborn son." TV was desparate since their company simply cannot continue to exist without a government contract. Honestly, I'm impressed they've lasted as long as they have, no one's buying plastic ammo for 350cpr.

>>64053314
fake and gay

>>64047578 (OP)
No body in RL wants an ass heavy bull pup

>>64054740
Everyone does, once they get used to the superior handling. I've sunk an unreasonable amount of money into my AR to try and get it almost as well-balanced as my AUG

>>64047598
The NGSW program was literally designed so the army would only have one supplier. (Sig)
It’s why nobody serious showed up. GD and textron weren’t serious. They were using the program to fund cool RnD shit, but they weren’t serious about actually making a service rifle.
Everyone knew the fix was in for Sig.
Unfortunately fate has decided to demonstrate why putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea.

>>64055299
>Unfortunately fate has decided to demonstrate why putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea.
I think fate did a pretty good job of that already with Boeing, although I suppose come to think of it NGSW kinda unfolded over the exact same time period (program kicked off in 2017, Lion Air crash was in 2018) as Boeing started to really visibly implode (even though internally the problems had been building since the absolutely fucktarded brain transplant of GE acolytes performed on them way earlier). In 2017 lots of people still thought Boeing was going to beat SpaceX to human launch lol.

But yeah we're going to be dealing with the aftermath of that shit period for long time to come, just like how the bitter harvest of GWOT is still coming in.

>>64047578 (OP)
TOTAL BULLPUP-FAG DEATH

>>64052980
Everyone claims TV had some sort of massive issue and never has anything to back it up

>>64052042
That's utterly absurd considering how cheap and rapid to produce those cases would be after setup

>>64054775
You're a text book larper my guy. No SF unit choose bullpup. All people with no real world experience want the pup.

>>64047688
wild that this chassis is $2000

>>64051490
If this is true, I'm going to be very disappointed. 40% certainly isn't small but the potential for every other weapons in service was right that and that would have been totally worth it at least in my eye. Belt fed is more understandable but I feel that could have been something hashed out afterwards especially with the 240 conversion.

>>64055452
How massive of an issue it was depends on how bad you think the M7 is. If you think it's a really good rifle and there's room for a worse gun to still be good, then there doesn't have to be anything particularly wrong with it. If you're like most of /k/ and think that the M7 is a terrible rifle and its mere existence is a travesty, well, that doesn't reflect well on the RM277.

>>64055495
>wild that this chassis is $2000
In all serious no not at all, it's the unfortunate nature of things with low volume production. People don't realize how much manufacturing is like
>R&D: $200k
>Machines/molds/run setup to make widget: $1.5m
>raw material per unit: $12
So where you end up between price per unit of $1700012 (1 produced) and $12 (infinity produced) comes heavily down to amount. If you are able to get orders for 500 it's $3412 each, if you get orders for 5000 it's $352 each etc.

Eventually advances in 3D printing should change that, by trading a higher operating expense for a much lower capital expense and consistency per geometry. But for the time being if you're doing something with a lot of geometry like that thing and it's an ultra niche item it's costly. And yes, there is a chicken/egg problem there, because if it's costly fewer people will even consider it and you may never be able to drive down the cost. One solution to bridge the scale gap is to take on debt or give up equity, but naturally a lot of people don't really want to do that.

So yeah if you want max value name of the game is standardization and mass production. It's why the AR platform is so fucking popular: you can get so much gun for your $ at the value end.

>>64055489
>No SF unit choose bullpup.
Jagdkommando, EKO Cobra, probably several others
your next line is posting that TFBTV video where the Austrian SOF guy says he'd prefer a short AR because it has more room for force multipliers than a 13.8" AUG

>>64047578 (OP)
They didn't have the same caliber of hookers and blow as Sig Saar.

>>64055513
What you have to keep in mind is that the RM277 is an insanely complicated weapon. Between the reciprocating barrel mechanism, the open/closed bolt switch, and the novel (a decade ago) 3d printed suppressor designed by a relatively small startup, there's just a hell of a lot more going inside than the Spear, which is just like every other piston AR ever. At 40% more expensive, I bet they were trying to sell the things at cost. But even if it was worth 40% more money, that still wouldn't be good enough because more complexity means more cost in repairs, a different platform means more cost in retraining tens of thousands of personnel, and most importantly, the poly case ammo is more expensive than Sig's hybrid case. Yes, there's the potential for it to come down quite a bit with economy of scale, but how long will that take, and how much money needs to be invested in production before then, and what happens if it turns out that the price doesn't come down?

Also I'm not sure what you mean about the M240, it's not a comparable role to the NGSW-AR, and not a single M240 was ever planned to be replaced by the program. Rechambering them to fire the same cartridge as the NSGW wouldn't change anything.

>>64055633
NTA
1. The NGSW-AR—XM250—is a belt-fed MG in a short magnum cartridge and absolutely makes the 240 redundant (hence the name) regardless of purchase plans
2. he was probably talking about the polymer case technology's logistical benefits (manufacturing ammo in-theater, reduced weight, etc.) and the ability to simply rebarrel existing .308 guns (like the 240) for 6.8 TV since it runs at normal chamber pressures

>>64055665
The M240 will shoot full auto all day long without stoppages (except to change barrels) and the M250 doesn't have field-swappable barrels or belts designed to be linked together. It is absolutely not a comparable weapon, and when it's replaced it'll probably be replaced by whatever the Army considers a full power cartridge these days (probably .338 NM) considering that they've called 6.8 Sigger an intermediate cartridge many times.

>>64055665
>The NGSW-AR—XM250—is a belt-fed MG in a short magnum cartridge and absolutely makes the 240 redundant
lmao. It's a giant steaming piece of shit. It's even worse than the rifle but no one is really talking about it (yet).

>>64055683
>>64055686
I agree, the 250 is a current-century Sig product and assuredly sucks monkey nuts, but *on paper* it's closer to being a replacement for the 240 than the 249.

>>64055683
>The M240 will shoot full auto all day long
It would run out of ammo in 4 minutes, actually. You're so dumb. This is why the M250 has no quickchange barrel. Gunners only have 400 rounds anyway. They don't need spare barrels.

Is there any hope some one will pick up cased telescoped ammo? It was a serious missed opportunity. It might have needed a year or two more in the oven to get it right but 40% weight savings vs brass is ridiculous

>>64055732
It's one of the few fundamental genuine advantage improvements in ammo tech we've seen in awhile, logistics and raw capacity for the same performance is a big fucking deal. And as much as I hate to say it, there is also the fact that even if human front line soldiers become obsolete and bullets get fired by auto turrets on ground drones or some shit, guns and bullets themselves are going to be around for a long time, so this isn't a case where the need is suddenly going to go away. And once it's scaled it'll become available in general.

So there's no way it gets dropped indefinitely. But unfortunately it could certainly get delayed +/- a decade due to stupid, that part is unpredictable.

>>64055714
And that's why the M250 is an automatic rifle and the M240 is a medium machine gun.

>>64055683
>>64056105
The fucking 249 has a quick-change barrel. The fact that the 250 was specced out by people who feel that the gunner will run out of ammo, rotate out, or die before he needs a new barrel changes nothing about the practical role of a belt-fed MG chambered for something close to .270 WSM.

>>64056105
>M240 is a medium machine gun.
It's a GPMG. General Purpose. An MMG would be chambered in .338NM.

>>64056152
It will have a quick change barrel. Give it 5 years for them to tweak it

>>64047578 (OP)
All of the rifles from the NGSW suck and look terrible. A rifle functions just as good as it looks, you know perfect when you see it.

>>64056187
In 5 years, the M7 will be relegated to a DMR role. Who knows if the M250 will survive. Imagine if they had just given it polycase ammo so that it could carry 40% more rounds. I did the math, that's 560 rounds in total.

>>64056216
>the DMR cope
It's a 2.5-3 MOA rifle even with match ammo

>>64056162
Holy shit anon, you really know nothing except what you read and half understand in these threads. The FN MAG is commonly used as a GPMG, but the US Army only uses it as an MMG because they use the M249 in the LMG role. The M250 is replacing the M249 in the AR role, but some 249s will continue to be used in the LMG role, presumably those will be phased out for the 250 at a later date. The M240 will not be replaced at any time, in any role, by the M250. The Army did recently announce a program to replace it, and while I agree that a .338NM MMG will replace it, it's entirely possibly that its successor will be in 7.62 or 6.8, in which case it will still be an MMG because that's the role it will be used in.

>>64056187
>just give them 5 years, they'll completely redesign it to be like it should've been to begin with
how do you feel about the M17/18

>>64056226
We don't know that for sure. It's just an AR-10 after all, and there's plenty of AR-10 DMRs.

>>64047578 (OP)
>We were this close to adopting a modern FG-42 and MG-42
We got the worst timeline

>>64056250
What do you mean we don't know that for sure? Sig sold a run of semiauto M7s and they've been selling .277 hybrid match ammo for years. It's accuracy isn't abysmal, but it doesn't meet the bar for a DMR. Why would you even want to use it as a DMR when the M110A1 is just as powerful and more accurate with bulk M80A1 than the M7 is with match ammo (that the Army isn't buying)? The only advantage the M7 has is that it's shorter, which doesn't matter for a DMR because you won't be door kicking with it.

>>64055714
>It would run out of ammo in 4 minutes, actually.
Not if it's fire support platoon MG or vehicle mounted MG.

>>64056271
>Why would you even want to use it as a DMR when
Because you have a bunch of M7s that would otherwise be gathering dust. Same as the M14.

>>64056271
7.62x51mm is a dying round within the US military. I expect it to be phased out for 6.8mm over the next 20 years

>>64056271
>Why would you even want to use it as a DMR when the M110A1 is just as powerful
6.8x51 absolutely trashes 7.62x51 in ballistic coefficient

>>64056284
If you replaced the M110 then you'd have a bunch of M110s gathering dust, which are actually good DMRs.

>>64056290
Just for the Army, and only until Congress tells them to stop fucking around and wasting money on nothing.

>>64054552
LSAT was belt fed and operated on much smaller pressures. The issues I described existed only in their NGSW-R

>>64056297
You don't have to replace the M110, you just have to find some practical use for the battle rifles that some retard spent $$$$$$$$$$$ of my taxes on in the current millennium for some reason

>>64056293
7.62 from a 20" barrel has significantly more muzzle energy than 6.8 from a 13" barrel so they're effectively the same in downrange energy.

>>64056321
Air drop them on some starving African country and write it off as a charity donation.

>>64056361
>just give them to child soldiers
On-brand for the USG.

>>64056229
What's the difference between;
>AR
>LMG
>SAW
>GPMG
>MMG?

>>64056324
>7.62 from a 20" barrel has significantly more muzzle energy than 6.8 from a 13"
I heard it has less or almost the same. According to wikipedia, the M7 has a muzzle velocity of 915m/s (3,002 ft/s). 7.62 only gets that fast out of +20" barrels

>>64055732
If you have a load of $$$$$ you can license it from Textron and start producing it yourself

>>64047636
fancy cat

>>64056412
SAW is the name of the project that resulted in the M249, same as NGSW for the M250. An AR is an individually operated squad-level weapon intended for sustained automatic fire and chambered for the same cartridge as the standard rifles/carbines. An LMG is similar to an AR, but crew served and not necessarily chambered for the same cartridge. An MMG is crew served and a higher-level asset, typically chambered in a full-power cartridge. While an AR is nearly as mobile as a rifleman and an LMG is bipod-mounted and semi-stationary, an MMG is typically mounted on a heavy tripod or a vehicle and not expected to relocate midfight in ordinary circumstances. Where the same weapon system is employed as both an LMG and an MMG, it's a GPMG.

So for the US Army, the M249 functions as both an AR and LMG depending on the accessory package, while the M240 is solely an MMG. The USMC uses the M27 as both a rifle and automatic rifle, the M249 as an LMG, and the M240 as an MMG. I believe the Australian Army uses the Minimi as an AR and the MAG as both an LMG and MMG, so there it's GPMG.

>>64055665
You don't even have to rebarrel the guns. You can just make/purchase 7.62 ammo from TV right now. The 6.8 is a foothold that lets the polymer ammo get adopted up and down the line

>>64056430
M80A1 is 130gr at 3050 FPS from a 20" M110 barrel. XM1186 is lighter, I think 127gr but I can't find confirmation of that right now. I'm also not sure that it's still 3000 FPS after they dropped the pressure, but on the other hand the bullet was originally 135gr so maybe the velocity didn't change much.

>>64057885
M80A1 G7 BC is 1.9.

>>64058375
That seems unreasonably high.

>>64058375
>M80A1 G7 BC is 1.9.
Horse fucking shit it is. You've misread some numbers there anon or misplaced a decimal point. Even stupid pushing it bc 30cal bullets like 241gr monos that require a 1:7tw to stabilize have a G7 of about .56 and that's damn fucking high and you need a magnum cartridge to push it, and with more COAL than the old ones give you in spec.

>>64055299
The NGSW program predates SIG's battle rifle.
It was originally the NGSAR, and the only gun that actually existed heading into it was the Textron rifle. At that time it was still chambered in 6.5mm (possibly a derivative of the .264 USA) - 120 grains at 3000fps.

>>64058655
>(possibly a derivative of the .264 USA)
It was the same cartridge as their 7.62 CT cartridge that duplicated the performance of 7.62x51, but with a smaller bullet.

>>64056412
There is little real difference between these outside of ad hoc nomenclature. One gun could be called something in on military and another in a different one.

Automatic rifle, theoretically, refers to magazine fed weapons that are designed to fire full auto all the time. But then some belt feed machine guns are called automatic rifles.
GPMG usually refers to one MG design that is meant to be adaptable to a variety of fixtures easily, its very modular. So you can carry it, or mount it in different ways and the overall body of the gun is adaptable for that. But then some are more modular than others in a substantial way.

LMG vs SAW arbitrary. SAW just came from a specific name that the US used for a program ran in the 1970s that has no larger meaning outside of that to differentiate it from LMG. SAWs are LMGs.
LMG vs MMG is again, very mutable. The first LMGs were just lighter guns made in full power rifle cartridges, today they're often in intermediate calibers but some aren't. MMG used to mean just a heavier rifle caliber machine gun, more likely to be fixed in place and rarely carried, but then came to mean full power rifle cartridge firing MGs of all sorts, and some are very portable today.
MMG vs HMG is again, mutable. HMG just means a gun is too heavy to run around with, usually. Caliber is irrelevant. But then some HMGs, like the Chinese .50 cals and some experimental American ones, can be carried around easily by one person.

>>64058693
I was thinking mostly of the bullet design in that case, but you're right in that way.

>>64058655
>the only gun that actually existed heading into it was the Textron rifle. At that time it was still chambered in 6.5mm
If that counts, then the Sig also existed because the XM250 is a scaled down version of their MG338, which was developed with technology stolen from GD's RM338, which was originally developed for their ill-fated M2 replacement.

>>64058717
You're thinking too much about specific features and not enough about the role, anon.
>An automatic rifle is an individual weapon
>An LMG is operated by a team with a gunner and assistant gunner
>An MMG is operated by a squad with a gunner, AG, and ammo bearers.
>An HMG needs special logistical consideration because a single 50-round belt of .50 BMG or 12.7x109 weighs more than an entire loaded M249
All of the specific features you might find in any individual weapon system exist to support its use in one or more of those roles.

>>64052844
>Okay guys we need you design a new cartridge with specifications created from our very niche need to accomplish something in the mountain of Afghanistan and also a rifle that shoots it and it needs to be as cheap as possible
>make this projectile we supply you go X velocity in a gun under Y in size

Sorry anon you just don't realize how dumb/ignorant you sound.

>>64059227
Most WW1/2 automatic rifles were crew served.
The French, British, and Japanese all used magazine fed automatic rifles with assistant gunners.
Some so-called LMGs are handled by one man, like the Stoner in Vietnam being typically handled by one soldier.

>>64059454
>Most WW1/2 automatic rifles were crew served.
>The French, British, and Japanese all used magazine fed automatic rifles with assistant gunners.
Those are magazine-fed weapons being used in the LMG role. They may have originally been designed to serve in the AR role like the reverse of the way the Minimi was originally designed as an LMG but used by the US primarily in the AR role.

Also, WWI examples aren't necessarily representative because machine guns in general were very new technology at the time, and there was a lot of experimentation with roles. For example, the chauchat was specifically designed for marching fire, which would make it closest to an AR in modern parlance, but ended up serving almost exclusively as an LMG because it turns out that marching fire is actually fucking retarded.
>Some so-called LMGs are handled by one man, like the Stoner in Vietnam being typically handled by one soldier.
That's a belt-fed weapon being used in the automatic rifle role, same as the M249 was in Iraq.

>>64055299
NGSW was designed to procure Textron's rifle, Textron failed to deliver.

>>64056152
Post a single example of an M249 having its barrel swapped outside of training.

A bonus cookie if you can demonstrate spare barrels being issued.

>>64056187
>>64056152
>>64055683

>>64059708
You have to wonder what the thing is ever for if its sustained volume of fire is barely higher than a carbine despite weighing twice as much.

>>64051586
>the design flaw is this blatant
>they shouldn't have been disqualified!
I'm going to start supporting Sig out of spite.

>>64059793
moron

>>64059800
>seething.

>>64059703
NSN 1005-01-451-6769 "Machine Gun, 5.56 MM, M249 W/ Equipment (LMG Role)" is issued with a spare barrel, 200-round box, and tripod adapter.

>>64047636
Nice gun, even better cat

>>64051512
The did though! you can buy 5.56 and 7.62 TV ammo right now!

>>64060431
I would, if it wasn't more expensive than regular ammo. I'm not hiking with this shit so it's not like I'm gonna benefit from the weight savings like a soldier would. I'm also not using it for suppressing fire, so cooler chamber temps are not a factor for me.

Plastic is supposed to be cheap. Why are polycase rounds more expensive than brass case?

>>64051583
That ejection system screams "Make me a bullpup"

>>64060614
Isn't that just a Steyr ACR with normal bullets?

>>64060558
tooling for injection molding is expensive as fuck especially when the polymer in question is supposedly quite abrasive to the machines. The army contract was basically the only way this stuff was properly getting off the ground

>>64058534
Sorry I was sleepy, decimal point misbehaved.
0.190 of course

>>64060846
But toys are made of plastic and those get made on a large scale, without being expensive. I smell a grift.

>>64060887
Go ahead and make some polypropylene cartridge cases and see how well they work.

>>64060947
But toy soldiers are made from Low-density polyethylene (LDPE). That's a thermoplastic, which means it gets moldable at high temperatures. It wouldn't be good for guns.

>>64060969
And you have your answer.

>>64060970
Then just use other plastics. Despite what the gun industry would have us believe, polymer parts are not more expensive than metals. They just charge more polymer guns because they are more fancy looking. The same logic applies to polycase ammo.

>>64047578 (OP)
I'm convinced the model they used did not have tattoos, and they used makeup or maybe even spraypaint to give him some generic "badass" tattoos to look more authentically military for the marketing material lol.
I don't know anything about the gun itself. I guess it's cool or whatever.

>>64060725
Steyr ACR also had side ring primer (rimfire 2.0) so case didn't have metal plug for primer at the base like in Textron CT

>>64047581
>Most people dont want bullpups
only retards and babies think bullpups have downsides.
>NOOOO I DONT LIKE THEM BECAU-
skill issue honestly.

>>64060982
Moist polymer gun parts are made of nylon, that wouldn't work well in a cartridge case, either.

>>64061643
But why? Why is nylon a bad choice for a casing material?

>>64060846
You can make the argument that being abrasive due to additives it wears out the mold more often but I don't buy it.
It's a very simple circular mold that you only need like one of for the whole cartridge. You can mass manufacture those with a CNC and just swap out every million rounds. Not expensive.

>>64061662
It's extremely hygroscopic, water would contaminate the powder in humid environments.>>64061662

>>64061948
Well that just makes it sound like it would be bad for guns in general. But the AUG and glock and other polymer guns don't seem to have any problems with it.

>>64060149
>only one 200 round sack

Yeah...

>>64062048
M249 SAW ammunition comes linked (disintegrating links) and prepackaged into 200 rds boxes that can be mounted on SAW

>>64047578 (OP)
That suppressor looks like a chode though

>>64061978
Guns don't stop working if they come into contact with humidity.

>>64064191
I dunno, nylon guy said it absorbs water like a sponge. If that's true, then glocks would definitely swell and go out of spec if left near the ocean.

>>64064619
It probably would if you left it in the ocean. A gun wouldn't break from humidity, but powder shouldn't be stored in the open in humid environments.

>>64047578 (OP)
>b*llp*p
no

>>64061948
Hygroscopic and permeable are different things doe

>>64052315

It is gas operated, but the barrel still moves in the gun frame as if it was recoil operated...?

>>64065782
Mad I believe it showes action wrong. I believe barrel recoils right after shot and barrels stops when bolts unlocks and starts moving.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130047833A1/en

>>64047652
What FCG do these use? Wondering about a conversion.

>>64061442
I like bullpups, I'm just saying that they're unpopular

>>64065946
I don't think they're unpopular though due to the form factor anymore then a bunch of other good guns, everyone I've ever shared one with enjoy sit. I think they're unpopular because lots of them haven't been very good out of the box, and they're generally poor values. Early free open platform standardization and subsequent network effects of the free market has been a huge boon to the AR and the objective fact of the matter is that you can get a LOT of gun for your dollar with it. Full stop. You can spend $500-1k on an AR and get something very solid with decent trigger, fully reliable, endless service options, and genuine 1-1.5moa accuracy no problem. Yeah you have the choice to spend more, but you don't need to.

Meanwhile I don't think there's really a perfect auto bullpup at all yet at any price, and even with the compromises the price definitely does not start at $500. That's a tough chicken/egg, you can't really get to that kind of pricing without mass production and a competitive market, which is hard to get to without standards and lower prices in the first place. All the designs with good triggers and modern niceties are proprietary and will be protected for a long time to come. And I understand companies need to make money and fund R&D, AR was kind of a lucky break, but that doesn't change the effect. We'd have to like, luck out and have some billionaire gun fan fund it for the love it and then release it after perfecting it for free.

I do think for manuals the SRS and HTI are damn near perfect in their roles, and even that MK one has gotten solid reviews. But someone could "want one" over a Tikka but not want-it-for-thousands-of-fucking-dollars-more over a Tikka lol.

>>64066224
>That's a tough chicken/egg
true but i think it actually comes down to military adoption
full military adoption will force the R&D to happen regardless of how many civilians own it.
and then once the military is "satisfied" with it it will then become popular on the civilian market
servicemen will also want "their gun" even when not on duty.

countries that do have a bullpup as their main rifle dont have civilian gun markets anything close to america so even if that country develops a good version then it wont really change adoption rates because that version isnt going to get into the hands of anyone to change their mind.