>the Americans captured this along with the engineers and the full data package
>after 20 years of consideration they adopted the M14
Has US army small arms procurement EVER made good decisions?

>>64058990 (OP)
Army procurement in general is very dirty business, less about effectiveness and more about scamming the government out of money

>>64058990 (OP)
How much did the Korean war change perspective on going away from the Garand? Obviously they knew the carbine was on its way out, but how did the convergence work?

>>64058990 (OP)
An assault rifle in general didn't fit the small arms doctrine they had at the time. They came around to the idea after adopting a battle rifle to do an assault rifle's job.

The StG-45 did go on to develop the CETME, which led to the H&K Ge, which led to the HK33, which was licence built by H&R and carried by Navy SEALs during the Vietnam War as the T223.

So in a very indirect sense what you describe as the alternate timeline did happen.

>>64058996
it's become real obvious as of late because of the dropping IQs worldwide and a general lack of shame because of degenerated morality.

>>64058990 (OP)
Yeah the stg is that bad.

>>64059013
Mostly led them to the conclusion that they wanted one weapon system to do the same job as the M1 rifle, M1 carbine, M3 SMG and M1918A2 automatic rifle. The primary objective was for it to be an improvement as a rifle which I contend that it absolutely did, but it didn't do such a good job of being a carbine, SAW or SMG replacement.

They didn't want to take a step back in power/range that an assault rifle would require because infantry doctrine was still heavily dominated by long range marksmanship. Nobody in a place to make decisions could really approach this pragmatically until McNamera saw the cost savings and got a slide rule induced hard-on.

>>64058990 (OP)
It's funny that the fucking Spanish were the only ones to see how good it was. However they were strongarmed into adopting the CETME into 7.62x51 like the rest of NATO.

>>64059054
Not really on their own volition. Spain was sheltering some voluntarily exiled Germans who had worked with Mauser on the StG-45(M).

Their little time out in Spain gave them time to develop the concept further. Franco got a very modern and affordable rifle out of the deal, and the Germans got to go home with a pretty good alternative to the FAL which Germany wasn't able to get production rights to manufacture domestically (due to some hard feelings over the war).
The new rifle was just what Best Germany needed and nobody cared about old fugitive NSDAP members anymore because there was now a Least Germany to worry about and frankly they didn't give a shit either.

>>64059013
>How much did the Korean war change perspective on going away from the Garand? Obviously they knew the carbine was on its way out, but how did the convergence work?

Human wave tactics shown that they were susceptible to human wave tactics. Rate of fire of rifles is too slow.

>>64059017
>reddit spacing

>>64059013
Quite a bit

>>64059274
Makes sense why they went towards the M14 when you see this chart. Not arguing it was the best choice, but going off of their data, it's not unreasonable.

>>64058990 (OP)
>The gun was designed by John Moses Browning
Its is good
>The gun was not designed by John Moses Browning
It is bad

>>64059091
nigger what, he may be a name fag but he's been doing it long enough

>>64059341
Did Reddit even exist back then?

>>64059371
I think it did, but I didnt go there until 2014. I think it came out in 2009
>came about in '05
looks like I was wrong, but I remember hearing about it on the RT podcast in 2011

>>64059049
None of the following against you, but against the retarded procurement higher ups in the 1950s.
>infantry doctrine was still heavily dominated by long range marksmanship
Which given all the data from SALVO shows how hardheaded leadership is and how it can drag behind reality.
Even taking as a given that the M14 would be the new rifle, the demand it be so multirole was another case of doctrinal and hypothetical thinking not waking up to reality. It should have been dead obvious that a full auto M14 (yes I know that got removed, I'm talking early in thinking how it would be used when they still had auto) would not be able to take the role of a SMG. Even taking away the BAR for an M15 and/or saying a dedicated auto rifle wasn't needed because all M14s could be auto rifles was retarded. The BAR was obviously an aged design that had been kludged into being a light machinegun but the solution was to build an actual proper light machinegun not strip it away. Even when M16s got adopted that hole didn't get filled until the M249 got adopted way later.

>>64059385
I want to add, it seems to be a trend in militaries during peacetime procurement to gravitate towards putting undue emphasis on deliberate long range fire over other factors. They seem hesitant to make the kinds of tradeoffs with guns that they do during actual wartime

>>64058995
if that was the case, then they would have adopted the PKM, instead of lying about it being terrible in tests

>>64059091
>reddit spacing

>>64059466
nta
didn't even know that was how it worked, i just type like this since i'm used to typing in game text chat
i basically treat second text lines as periods, depending on how related in context the next text is, else i'll put a semicolon in

>>64059480
Oh so that's why I sometimes have people sperging at me for ending my sentences with periods. A bunch of zoomers who type like everything is a game chat makes sense.

>>64059466
>2007
>oldfag

>>64059681
2007 was 30 years ago

>>64059466
That's literally wrong. Reddit's old GUI used to convert two new line characters into a new paragraph, and only one new line character into a space. You could also press space twice before pressing enter to make a paragraph break with tighter spacing.

This guy inverted it completely, he was either lying or accidentally demonstrated how inane this shit is.

There is no shame in 'Reddit spacing' either way. You can choose either depending on the format of your post, /pol/tards latch onto the weirdest shit.

>>64058990 (OP)
Weight loaded:
>STG44: 5.13kg
>M14: 4.9kg
>M7: 4.42kg (no suppressor)
>M7S: 5.03kg
Muzzle velocity
>STG44: 2247fps
>M14: 2800fps
>M7: 3000fps (no suppressor)
OAL:
>STG44: 37 inches
>M14: 44 inches
>M7: 31 inches
>M7S: 36 inches

The M14 was a better assault rifle than the STG44. Posters like OP deserve the rope for stupidity. I just know he spams this kind of shit in NGSW threads too, so I included that too.

>>64059739
He has a point in that the concept for an assault rifle was present, encountered in combat, evaluated in testing and should have had more consideration in the next generation of small arm development than it did.

I think they were trying to have the M14 do some of what the StG-44 did, but the type of short/fat cartridge like 7.92x33 or 7.62x39mm would have been a non starter. They felt that a full auto battle rifle was the best compromise because it really only needed the automatic function for either suppressive fire or really close range and having the bigger cartridge allowed for serious overmatch against somebody with an SKS/AK/SMG at longer range. This seems retarded looking at Vietnam, but considering that the rifle was developed more on the heels of the Korean War where GIs with M1s were fucking up Norks and Chinese with PPsH, SKS, AK or Mosins at engagements where range could be a real factor it makes sense.

Not every war ends up being the same.

>>64058990 (OP)
>after 20 years of consideration they adopted the M14

Against the FAL (which won) in .280 British. FDR's government was so compromised his entire cabinet was filled with Reds, and they penetrated The Manhattan Project repeatedly with a Director that perjured himself to cover for a Red friend and wasn't removed and tried for treason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mby4hOq-DpI

>>64058990 (OP)
>Has US army small arms procurement EVER made good decisions?

Limited lever action deployment in The US Civil War. 1904 Maxim. Limited late WW1 Thompsons. Anything John Browning's. Garand (not in .276 for logistics reasons). Grease Gun replacement of Thompsons + M1 Carbine.

>>64059739
No effort bait.

>>64058990 (OP)
Army procurement decision making focused on range and accuracy because those are metrics that are easy to measure on a firing range.

>>64060361
I think adopting various Thompsons as early as the U.S. did was pretty forward thinking. As compared to the Brits who basically ignored SMGs in the interwar years. The Thompson was proven, in the U.S. chosen caliber, and domestic. The work done in WW1 to simplify it are a great example of simplified design that doesn't actually compromise the gun in a practical way. It was outdated by the end of war, but it certainly wasn't a bad idea when adopted.

>>64060417
*WW2 Jesus

>>64058990 (OP)
There's an ordnance report from during the war that called it a novelty with no future.

>>64060530
At the time it was basically just a glorified SMG. The 7.92 Kurz cartridge was super stubby and doesn't really resemble our own modern intermediate cartridges, so it wasn't much of an improvement over regular 9mm.

>>64059739
>STG44
The fuck are you talking about? How bout you get your eyes checked?

>>64059274
Having no idea what his methodology was, I'm willing to be at least part of what was going on with the carbine was that the panic fire came from POGs who were resorting to their weapon because their position was being overran

>>64058990 (OP)
>Has US army small arms procurement EVER made good decisions?
The M1 Garand and M1/M2 Carbine. The Garand may have been overcomplicated and overweight but unlike its contemporaries it was able to see general issue to all frontline combat units in the Army on top of, you know, actually fucking working which automatically makes it the winner. Also better than either the Pedersen or Johnson so the Army just objectively made the best procurement of the choices available.
The Carbine was just excellent in every way. Every single user loved it and I cannot think of a single instance of negative feedback except in Korea, which was not really the weapon's fault.
Also the AR-15 up to the M16A1, and even then it's not like all of the A2's changes were completely bad. If they ditched the burst trigger and kept the A1's barrel profile it would not receive anywhere near the level of hate it gets nowadays.

>>64060585
It has same weight bullet and same case capacity as 7.62x39

>>64058990 (OP)
The M3 was a damn good decision.
The M3A1 was an even better decision.
It's a damn shame we aren't still making them.

>have chance to adopt this with an 'intermediate ' caliber cartridge
> insist in making their own gun in 7.62
> make everyone else use 7.62
>drop their own gun and switch to 5.56 and leave everyone else stuck with 7.62 for decades
Some master level trolling

>>64061022
280 is a shit cartridge, frankly we all dodged a bullet and got the glorious 308 instead that was the perfect answer to "what are we gonna feed are new MGs with?". Yeah it may have sucked for infantry but fuck infantry

>>64059079
Imagine that instead of dealing with US Army Ordanance autistm the British got the EM2 to out to Korea in decent numbers to mow down even more of the the advancing Chinese

I'm glad that Bongs were made to seethe and that 5.56mm was adopted instead of .280

>>64060585
You'd have to ignore all German field reports to think that, they all loved it and just wanted more of them.

>>64060585
This is completely deluded, it also has closely similar ballistics to supersonic .300BLK

>>64059026

>>64061063
Anon, the Germans didn't have a garand or carbine equivalent.

>>64061044
I'll take the word of all the countries that trialed it and decided they wanted to use it over some retard on /k/ that's never seen or fired it.

>>64059382
>>64059341
Why are you bumlicking an attention craving tripfag

>>64059054
You realise they didn't join NATO until 1982 right? By then everyone was switching to M855

>>64061085
It's almost like the MP44 sat in between those two weapons and needed a designation of its own.

>>64061044
You little shit, you literally just adopted a cartridge that is almost exactly the same as 280 brit just with higher pressures.

>>64061085
What did the boys in Vietnam with their glorified Garands think when they had to face AK's which are almost exactly equivalent to the STG44's you fucking retarded piece of shit

>>64061163
they would have lost if the viet cong only had mosins and mausers

>>64061152
>almost exactly the same as 280 brit but different in all the ways that matter most
Yes and the Ruger P97 is a 1911 clone because it uses 45

>>64061211
Just bump up the powder load a bit and it's the same cartridge waow completely different!!

>>64061088
I aint, but he do got tenure

>>64061163
>AK's which are almost exactly equivalent to the STG44
Bizarre statement

>>64061088
because he doesn't.
he rarely posts and just randomly shows up.
most tripfags on /k/ barely come around and are on topic with their shit.
though there WAS that massive crashout BigC had going a few years back.

>>64061527
>BigC
that dude was something else, any argument you made against his deranged fetish was countered with "well I have money to buy cool guns so what does it matter"

Violation more punishable then the charge is corruption this isnt a casino.

>>64061536
him forgetting his tripcodes and trying to go about namefagging, resulting in 50 alternate "REAL BigC" namefags was hilarious.

>>64061163
The AK is just the Garand flipped upside down. It's a true evolution of the M1 whereas the M14 is not even as good as the BM-59.

>>64061602
>him forgetting his tripcodes
THATS why! I was wondering if he was trying to get around the tripcode filter

>>64061509
>>64061637
>30 round box magazine
>semi auto/full auto
>iron sights
>both fire an 8g bullet at around 700m/s
EQUIVALENT

>>64061509
The AK and STG44 are pretty damned close in statistics.
This is going to blow your mind but weapons superior to the M14 were given out to barely-trained children in WW2. That's how outdated American smallarms were postwar.

>>64061667
oh no he had come back and had forgotten his password for his tripcode, so he was going around being a jackass without it and people dogpiled him in that one thread.
afterwards he was so humiliated he went and finally got his password and never posted without his trip.

>>64061676
>meters/second
Yuropoor detected, opinion rejected.

>>64059301
name a band/artist that never made a bad song.

>>64062974
Chikoi the Maid

>>64058990 (OP)
>using a gun created by the guys who lost the biggest war in history
They wanted a weapon to win wars.

>>64063678
ironic shitposting is still shitposting Lindy

>>64059466
I can't find them in my clusterfuck of a drive but I've got screenshots somewhere of 2004ish posts with "reddit spacing" long before reddit even existed.

I've been here since it was 4chan.net (so late '03/early '04) and I've always done the double line break just because that's how I was taught to write, you always break separate topics or statements into separate paragraphs, it's just a little weird here since you get so many single-sentence "paragraphs" but it's still more readable than one huge block of text. It also helps keep text from running all the way across a desktop browser window, which sucks to read, and is probably the reason it was common here in the early days and why today's crop of phoneposters don't understand it.

>>64063744
You thinking of this one?

>>64063756
No but that's a decent example too. The one I remembered had extreme levels of cringe weebery. (I don't just mean anime shit, I mean "/ᐠ ˵> ⩊ <˵マ nyaaa~" type of shit)

>>64063943
>extreme levels of cringe weebery.
щ(ºДºщ) This is so not dajobu.
I dekinai understand how you can be so baka to say that. (°□°)︵ ━
It's an affront to my yamato-damashii
Ore get ikari just from reading this ((◣﹏◢)) .

>>64059054
Them and the Portuguese actually did a good job resisting the postwar bolshevik revisionism. Just wish they'd dug in harder (and the rest of Europe followed their example)

>>64059681
It was the beginning of the Chris-chan saga

>>64061163
>what did the boys in Vietnam with their glorified Garands think when they had to face AK's
"How the fuck did I travel forwards in time?"

The M16 replaced the M14 in Vietnam before rhe USSR supplied the VC with any AKs.

>>64061044
>6.5x55
>7mm RemMag
>.270 Win

>>64058990 (OP)
the truth is that assault rifles weren't considered an improvement over battle rifles until small caliber high velocty cartridges came around. they both have their disadvantages and benefits but the truth of the matter is that no nation on earth has willingly abandoned their battle rifles in favor of AKM or its equivalent.

>>64059486
God what the actual fuck happened to society. Period or not, who gives a flying fuck? They latch onto the weirdest shit its like they have a new type of autism or something

>>64059466
Nope he's lying leaving spaces between is reddit spacing because whenever you press enter on that god awful site it automatically leaves the space.
Whereas if you press enter here it doesn't leave a space. The mental gymnastics of r*dditors is a bad joke, they're almost as undesirable as /pol/luters

>>64061087
And yet, when given the opportunity to try it again, England develops 4.85 instead of reviving 280 brit. Moreover there were tons of counties that could've adopted ot had the round really had any merit

>>64064418
>gay swedeshit
>who?
>243 is better
You had 6.5 Arisaka, 6.5 Grendel, and 275 Rigby AKA 7mm Mauser and yet you picked the gayest sub-30 cals around

>>64058990 (OP)
Mostly because nobody really understood how to implement an assault rifle back then. The Soviets and Chinese initially treated them like SMGs, we treated the M1 as a mini service rifle, and the Germans interchangeably called it the MP-44. And no, that wasn't to appease Hitler or to sneak it through adoption, they were still figuring out if it's a SMG replacement or a self-loading rifle. It'd be like giving a Napoleonic-era army a M60, they could scarcely make heads or tails of it much less figure out how to integrate it into their doctrine

>>64059466
This is nonsense and he's got things backwards from the conventional explanation (I wouldn't know how reddit works). Reddit spacing is actually the noob trap, it started as joke to trick newcomers and ended up as an actual literal meme. Also putting spaces between sentences was common in the past, when everybody was still using 480p monitors, and still common now, because of phone posters and the fact that the comment window is still tiny. You can type a single sentence and it looks like a huge paragraph that demands a new line.

>>64061152
>.270 WSM is the same as .280 piss weak brit

>>64065658
>no nation on earth has willingly abandoned their battle rifles in favor of AKM or its equivalent.
What a nicely technically constructed sentence full of built-in caveats so that you don't have to ever admit the AK was superior to battle rifles. We know what you're trying to do so I'm just not going to bother doing a counterargument, it'll just be a waste of time.

>>64065909
SCHV is superior to battle rifles under 300 meters.
7.62 Kurz guns are just ersatz crap.

>>64061085
Carbine no but what are the G41/G43? Yeah I know, they kinda sucked, but they ARE the Garand equivalent

>>64062930
Advance a real argument any time

>>64059684
Stop reminding me.

>>64059681
Bruh, the 2003 oldfags are like less than 1% of the site at this point. I've only been here since 2013 and that puts me ahead of like 90% of userbase as this point. Occasionally someone will call me a newfag, and I'm like bruh I've been here for over a decade. I can't leave and I'm not proud of it.

>>64066085
Here since '04.
It's nothing to brag about.
I literally came for the guro.

>>64065920
lmao, it really was the SCHV schizo after all.

>>64060839
>Having no idea what his methodology was
>SLA marshall
He made it up

No im serious, SLA marshall is very questionable when it comes the any hard facts. He was probably good when it comes to interviewing soldier about how they feel. But hard numbers? Probably not.
https://archive.org/details/commentary_on_infantry_weapons_korea_1950_51

Note, this is the same guy that made up the "only 1 in 4 soldiers actually fire to kill in combat"

Which is in serious doubt
https://www.canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/4-Engen-Marshall-under-fire.pdf

>For all his fine historical work – and there was much of it – Marshall was a man who suffered from a scholarly myopia, and saw precisely what he wanted to see. In his memoirs Marshall described how during his very first assignment as a combat historian, at the US amphibious assault on Makin Island in 1943, he witnessed not the "universal" low firing ratio he later championed, but green US Marines with jittery nerves hitting the beach and blazing away with their weapons at anything that moved and many things that did not. It was the opposite of the ratio of fire: frightened soldiers employing too much fire to help calm themselves and assert power over their situation.

>Most importantly, Marshall wrote that he decided not to report on this at the time, because at that point he believed it was low firing ratios that were the most serious problem of modern infantry warfare. Marshall wilfully disregarded important evidence because he had already made up his mind that non-firing was the "real" problem – at his very first deployment as a combat observer! He allowed his preconceptions to govern his findings. According to those who knew him, this was not unusual for Marshall. Colonel E.M. Parker, a fellow analyst during the Korean War, wrote that Marshall conducted his interviews and research in such a way as to support his tendentious ideas.

https://gwern.net/doc/history/s-l-a-marshall/2002-jordan.pdf

>>64066172
Fun fact: Soviets made juiceed up 7.62x39 with energy of nearly of 7.62x51 and this AK mod had twice hit rates of standard AKM in semi auto (in hands of conscripts on "tactical range").


>but what about muh automatic fire
Soviets run comprehensive trials to determine optimal burst length for AKM and found:
Length of the burst has zero effect on hit probability of the burst (think of the implications).
Soldiers with AKM firing semi auto vs burst fire were able hit twice more targets per limited time on "tactical range" with knockdown targets. (Again think of the implications).
It's all means that avtomat is crap concept and soldiers should utilize semi automatic fire, but it's was unacceptable politically. Soviets had cult of automatic fire and avtomat, you've been isolated from Soviet culture and can't comprehend it all. So "avtomat is fine" and findings were swept under the rug

>>64066129
>It's nothing to brag about.
I wish I could leave this kuso site already.

>>64066381
>same guy that made up the "only 1 in 4 soldiers actually fire to kill in combat"
Well shit that does disqualify anything he claims.

>>64065863
>the US have adopted an even smaller caliber
>let's look at making our own
>let's just standardise on what the USbis using

>>64066633
Don't worry, you're here forever.

>>64058990 (OP)
that's a commie gun and we needed a different looking gun because of freedom
simple as

>>64059091
>joshipedo

>>64065869
Kek. You are genuinely retarded.

>>64067970
Better retarded than gay

>>64061163
They didn’t think much because they still slaughtered them ten to one

>>64058990 (OP)
US hegemony means US calibers in your guns, and Eisenhower era postwar swagger means big manly bullets shot from the USA’s big upgraded war winning rifle, not some cheap kraut conceived gun firing kraut bullets from kraut designed brass that lost the war. Bountiful American bosom, arsenal of democracy, oh no the military industrial complex, and so on.

>>64068124
Yet you manage both at once