https://nitter.net/clemens_speer/status/1951198885562429593
>Dr. Michael Schöllhorn, CEO of Airbus Defence & Space, to the Federal Chancellor:

>"In total, we no longer see any basis for the further continuation of FCAS – except in the case of a return to and the actual implementation of the agreed foundations."

>Source: griephan Briefe 031-034/25

What now?

>>64069679 (OP)
Not really a shock when France says they want 86% of the workshare in a supposed trinational effort. Leaving Germany and Spain to fight over the remaining 14%.

I could see an argument from France for 50-60% but 86% is frankly laughable, Germany would be better off buying GCAP or F-47 (assuming it's exportable).

>>64069679 (OP)
>one frog in the replies telling Germans to stay in their corner and that France has clearly superior aeronautical manufacturing techniques Germany doesnt
Frogs will never not be arrogant pricks

euros and bongs will just buy more f-35s until the f-55 comes along (f-55 being a f-35 turned into a f-22)

>>64069679 (OP)
https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-news/defence/portugal-eyes-joining-sixth-generation-fighter-programme
Lol so that makes this decision easy. Apparently Portugal wanted to join under observer status to either GCAP or FCAS, but this kinda narrows the choice down. Wonder if Belgium will also transfer their observer status from FCAS to GCAP too.

>>64069679 (OP)
>FCAS is dead
good, they should make it official already so no more time is wasted. France can get fucked. MGCS should be terminated asap too.
>What now?
more upgraded Eurofighters and F-35A
CCA based off Kratos Valkyrie
long term hopefully some sort of observer status or license production of GCAP, the design suits Germany better than what FCAS was meant to be anyway.

>>64069901
35 more of these are as good as set for Germany, bringing the number to 70.

>>64069720
Frogs are right though. They are routinely doing "the whole widget", when was the last time Germany or god forbid Spain did anything?

>>64069966
> routinely
upgrading a 80s design is anything but "routinely doing"
and since when did they ever manage a whole stealth air program ? The jump from 4th to 5th is already a very big jump and french hasn't done anything.
Stealth shape ? Only groundwork research, Airbus can be arguably ahead with its history on the Lampyridaee
Engine ? M88 is easily vastly inferior to EJ200
Radar ? Rafale has one of the smallest radar on board
FCS ? Thrust Vectoring ? Dassault hasnt done anything particularly noteworthy in this area, especially with Thrust Vectoring.
UAV swarm communication and management ? Neither Germany nor Dassault has done anything, a lot are still to be developed

Trappier and dassault are merely insisting on a vague superiority over something they haven't done.
Even Turkey are actively developing a stealth jet on their own, so they actually have a much stronger argument, rather than a 40 yo Rafale

>GCAP is perfectly safe and hitting milestones at high speed
Germans should've joined us for the full axis team + Britain.

>>64069702
>Not really a shock when France says they want 86% of the workshare in a supposed trinational effort. Leaving Germany and Spain to fight over the remaining 14%.

Source? Oh yeah. There are none. Some german journalist said 80% in a hit piece and now it is gospel.

and the FCAS isn't a figher only, it's a system with multiple blocks. The fighter is just one of them. Dassault only has the lead on the fighter, so even if they wanted 80%, it would only be 80% of of X% of the program (which they wouldn't have either since they are not working alone, they make planes, not radars, motors...).
Airbus (germany, but also it's spanish subsidiary that conveniently participate in the program as the "third" country) has the lead on the cloud and the UAV.
Still waiting for any working airbus uav btw. For now, it's fuck ups after fuck ups, and they have to buy off the shelf US.

>>64070093
only reason why Germany didn't join it is because of political retardation because back then Brexit was the current things. I still hope we manage to get in the project in some manner, maybe license production or installing some domestic components.

>>64070104
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/paris-demands-80-workshare-franco-german-fighter-jet-says-source-2025-07-07/

>>64070069
>Trappier and dassault are merely insisting on a vague superiority

That they indeed have. That's why their plan B is doing the plane alone while airbus plan b is officialy go parasite another program or buy off the shelf US planes.

>Even Turkey are actively developing a stealth jet on their own
Sure. The how about Airbus teaming up with Turkey? after all it wouldn't the sole program, Airbus is so competent that they can't even make a trainer, and are buying TAI hurjet

>>64070112
I called that FCAS was going to be a mess, but not for any specifically technical reasons, Germany and France are extremely technologically competent countries, but they're also two women. Spain is the only man of the trio and he's too busy with the siesta to ever break up their slap fight. They're two extremely, extremely prideful countries that would not compromise because of their own prestige and this ended up happening.

>>64070104
> buy off the shelf US
care to cite even one source reporting this, then ?
otherwise, you are spouting rubbish

>>64070128
he's not wrong, Germany will likely buy Kratos XQ-58 Valkyrie CCA stealth drones. ADS will integrate a German-compatible mission system on it. The thing is, the other anon is just pretending that's a bad thing when the stated goal is to have a system ready for introduction by the end of this decade.

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2025-07-airbus-to-team-with-us-kratos-defense-deploying-german-mission

>>64070112
>https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/paris-demands-80-workshare-franco-german-fighter-jet-says-source-2025-07-07/

>a defence industry source told Reuters, backing up a report by respected German defence publication Hartpunkt.

What a source. Like i said. A German hit piece to bluff Airbus into a leading role.

>only reason why Germany didn't join it is because of political retardation because back then Brexit was the current things.
Only reason is the Brits not wanting to work with Germany after their experience with the eurofighter program.

>>64070122
> That they indeed have.
> That's why their plan B is doing the plane alone while airbus plan b is officialy go parasite another program or buy off the shelf US planes.
Bwahahahahaha
Sure, do tell me about their plan b, then, thanks to their "indeed have" know-how ?
And not Rafale F5 until 2040s, please ?
And i cant wait to see french giving up on new SSN, nuclear carrier nor BMD system and possibly even down-sizing their SSBN just to keep Dassault in the game, that's if they can even develop a fully indigenous 6G with absolutely no cost overrun

>>64070139
>A German hit piece to bluff Airbus into a leading role.
kek, I admire this amount of shameless victim blaming. almost russian tier.

I think it fundamentally comes back to carrier requirements.
Germans are extremely miserly and cheap as a culture, and this seeps into literally everything.
They would never accept paying (even a proportionally tiny amount) for something they themselves cannot use (heck, it's a monstrous battle just to get them to pay for things they *would* use), but the French absolutely need a carrier-capable plane (that's why they eventually left the first Eurofighter program, when carrier capability was dropped).
Having the vast majority of the airframe workshare would mean the Germans can't cut out the carrier capability.
However the Germans are aware of that, so they fought hard to keep French share low, just so they could pull their old budgeting shenanigans.

>>64070145
But why the fuck should Germans or Spaniards be willing to pay for a carrier-borne version ?
The spaniards are contemplating on acquiring f35b, if they ever need a carrier-borne jet

>>64070145
>However the Germans are aware of that, so they fought hard to keep French share low, just so they could pull their old budgeting shenanigans.
that's just a lie. The workshare was already agreed on, France was in the lead for the fighter jet. the amount of lead wasn't enough for them though because they want to do everything and have Germany pay for it. and when Germany isn't quite cucked enough to agree to that "deal", you call us cheap. just fuck off and collaborate with Saudi Arabia or India.

>>64070156
am seeing Frogniggers deluding themselves about how indian or some oil sheik or even fucking indonesian would totally be a good partner for Frogland
Frognigger is merely looking for a paypig, and with the way they are letting dassault dictating, that’s exactly what they will get. India totally didn’t have a history of one fuck up after another, the tejas was surely a very successful jet after all. Oh wait…
And let’s not talk about penny pinching behavior, indian are surely well known to be so generous, fucking Russian got along so well after all…

>>64070155
If one of the primary reasons for the french to have a 6th gen is to put it on a carrier, then there isn't any point for them to participate in the program without it. Paying for those carrier capabilities are effectively a required compromise to have France's participation in the program at all.

If Germany or Spain find that paying for something only the French want is unacceptable, then their only choice is to cancel the program. They don't want a program with carrier capability, and the French don't want one without it. The needs of both sides are incompatible so there can be no deal, and that is that.

However, in this case carrier capabilities have been a publicly announced feature of FCAS for a long time. Germany and Spain *did* agree to a carrier version, so them changing their mind would be a bitch move when they could have walked away 5 years ago and saved everyone a lot of money.

That cuts both ways, however, and France trying to take most of the workshare after contracts were already signed to the contrary is also a massive dick move, and a sign that FCAS is a dead program walking because there is apparently no compromise that will satisfy all parties.

>>64069679 (OP)
>What now?
we wait for actual, reliable source to come up

France / Dassault know they can make a 6th gen fighter on their own
and now they think they have more leverage

but then again
there aren't any reliable sources yet, just social media blabbering
and funding of the next phase just went through
so FCAS could also work out just fine
no one knows

>>64070093
>Germans should've joined us for the full axis team + Britain.
no one wanted Germany

>>64070270
They can, but the economics of it are extremely questionable. Individually France/Germany/Italy could at best buy a 100-300 fighter jet airframes. Then you have competition from the F-35 which brings this number down. So there's no economy of scale to offset the immense fixed cost. And if one builds one, other European countries are going to try to one up each other by building another airframe. This is why among Europe there's like 7 different 4th gen fighter jet airframes, each very expensive

>>64070069
>Turkey are actively developing a stealth jet on their own
Sure when you ignore the Lockheed engineers consulting with them.

>>64070256
Then it's about time for France to reconsiders its autistic "full strategic autonomy" policy.
Sure,their nuclear deterrence should remain free of U.S. components, i.e., ITAR-free. However, the conventional part of its armed forces could benefit from integrating with U.S. hardware. A carrier strike group can be an effective force projection tool, provided France can afford all of the expenses. However, France's limited budget results in its domestically developed equipments often feels like significantly downgraded versions of U.S. export hardware.

>>64070288
It's tough to be try to be independent from the US, it's suicidal to be dependent on it
>US will mass export it's subsidized planes to you
>Wipes out your defense industry
>Next time, charge you even more
>And try to use Jewish financial shenanigans to take over your strategic companies (see France nuclear theft fiasco)

>>64070270
> make a 6G on their own
6G term is purely marketing rubbish on their own, and the least, it would still have to be at least no worse than f22 or f35
And consider France hasn’t been involved in even groundwork for any stealth aircraft, that’s purely French delusions of grandeur

>>64070139
Britian did more to improve and develop the Eurofighter and waa a tier 1 partner with the F35, they'd be right to tell Germany to fuck off if they wanted any sort of say in GCAPS development, maybe they could put some money into and then buy the final product but that's it

>>64070332
It's clear that Germany, not Britain or France, is the problem here.

>>64070359
if you're a lying frog, yeah.

>>64070298
> it's tough
by being not poor, i.e., having an economy on par with china and the us itself, which we all know, france is nowhere near that league.
> take over your strategic companies
france should try to keep their strategic interests firmly in their hand
But by limiting your top-end fighter, you are severely downgrading their performance just to upkeep your naval carrier wing.
And consider french financial limit, the few frigates they have with no replacement or upgrade available anytime soon, and is already inferior in both capabilities and numbers to the burke, won't be of much use in any fight with a near peer power. Their carrier would be an absolute sitting duck

>>64070279
>They can, but the economics of it are extremely questionable.
as if this was ever a problem

fundamentally I think it's more of a technological problem rather than price
Dassault already bitched in 2021 over "possible" technology transfer

>at best buy a 100-300 fighter jet airframes
Rafale has ~250
>economy of scale
questionable if this has any big influence beyond 200+ airframes
development cost are generally kept low by buying lots of existing components
this isn't the F-35 where basically everything was developed from scratch

>>64070303
>France hasn’t been involved in even groundwork for any stealth aircraft
that was the entire point of Dassault nEUROn

>>64070370
And to sum it all up

Alright, let's cut through the noise of this hours-long debate. Some die-hard French folks are at it again, acting like Dassault and France can just whip up a sixth-gen fighter and all its fancy systems solo. Come on, let’s be real - they need to team up with Germany and Spain to pool their cash, brains, and resources. Unlike the us, who are straight-up boss in military aviation (seriously, arguing otherwise is like saying the Earth’s flat), France and pals can’t go it alone. The US have the money, the tech, and the know-how to build their own sixth-gen programs from scratch. Their lead is so huge the U.S. has been running (probably long) test campaigns for Next Generation Air Dominance tech demonstrators. Plus, the U.S. is tinkering with variable cycle engines and pushing hard on the NGAD program.

Germany, France, and Spain figured out they’ve gotta join forces to even dream of building something that can hang with what the Amerimutts cooking up. We’re talking next-level stealth, cutting-edge avionics, variable cycle engines, drone team-ups, the whole nine yards. None of these countries could pull off a plane like that on their own - they just don’t have all the funds to match the big dog.
Pic related, what the Germans side can actually contribute, namely VCE engine, the spanish will be doing Thrust Vector nozzle, likely with some input from Airbus back from X31 program in its MBB days, so it's not like Safran can actually go all in on their own in 2 weeks even if France is to leave FCAS now, much to Dassault and the wishes of some frenchy here

>>64070093
Any project with either Germany or France would result in a dead project.
GCAP IS GOING WELL BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE GERMANY OR FRANCE

>>64070093
it's really funny that GCAP was originally the cope me-too program doomed to failure as soon as real questions started being asked and then japan dropped their dick on the table

>>64069679 (OP)
VIVE LA FRANCE! TUER LES BOCHES!

>>64070405
without france no one can make the loyal wingman come to life. proof is that none of the GCAP partners are even doing testings on that.

>>64070415
>without france no one can make the loyal wingman come to life
tf are you on about? Loyal Wingman/adjunt drone testing has been going on at leonardo for the past few years on the M-346 as a test platform for then being integrated on the GCAP. We're even developing an AR helmet based on the F-35 one with further mixed reality capabilities to move beyond having a single LAD.

>>64070430
AR cockpit

>>64069679 (OP)
> ruddevator
Such a shitty design, even for a concept
Yuropoors just can’t into innovation anymore

>>64070270
>France / Dassault know they can make a 6th gen fighter on their own
Surrenderly hands wrote this post.

>>64070400
The problem is Dassault always had a massively overinflated opinion of themselves. It's the reason why they've repeatedly dropped out of multinational projects. Heck, they're the only large French airplane company which dropped out of the Airbus project in the 1980s.

>>64070556
The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35, Su-57 and J-20 as a fifth generation fighter. Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen. That is why many countries, such as India, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE which have requested F-35s or were looking at other fifth gen options like the Su-75 and KF-21, are now Rafale users.

The Eurofag Typhoon meanwhile remains a 4-4.5 generation aircraft with no further development potential, and the countries who are using it primarily (UK, Italy, Spain etc) are all F-35 users and have no incentive to develop it further.

If the Rafale was made by a non-NATO country, they would call it 5th gen.

>>64069679 (OP)
The project was doomed from the start, as it was mostly pushed by a dumb europhiles like Macron. You can't force Dassault into submission, being pig headed is the company's tradition.

>>64070622
please, get a new script, cause this is like the 20th time i've seen this copepasta
And no, with a RCS that's worse than the fucking su-57 and a tiny radar, it will never be a VLO aircraft

> Rafale was made by a non-NATO country, they would call it 5th gen
Whatever third worlds classifies them as doesn't fucking matter.
Rafale lost, multiple times to f35, period. That's the sole reason for Trappier and Dassault endless seething against Belgium

> India, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE
yeah sure faggot, they would also be a very suitable partner for Dassault upcoming Rafale successor. France is undisputedly the first western yuros that will be like 1/3 full of muzzie and negros anyway, so that's very fitting

It's always the frogs...

>>64069679 (OP)

Germans should get consulted by northrop and build their own stealth interceptor based on the yf-23

> basically a 5th gen fighter already ready made
> too sexy not to ever fly

>>64070622

You are retarded if you think the rafale is on par with the f-35 and thats why countries choose it. And I am saying that as a non-amerifat

The only reason people choose the rafale is because:
- kf-21 more expensive than the f-35 yet less capable and unproven, and no production capacity
- f-35 middle east countries and china-neutral countries don't want american dependency with drumpf et. al. in the whitehouse
- su-57 is the flying armata. Russia cannot build them anymore as they cannot build any technology
- rafale is the only combat proven aircraft that is buyable in sufficient quantities


French are currently well positioned by distrust of the us and sheer luck that they are the only one who can provide an aircraft with little to no us/china dependencies.

>>64070769
>kf-21 more expensive than the f-35
that's complete bullshit

current (july 25) estimates are at ~$110mil per unit for worst korea
very similar contract for the F-35, also worst korea, is at ~$200mil

and I highly doubt the f-35 will be cheaper for further weapon integrations or any other services
kf-21 is also still in it's starting phase, if they win a few contracts around the world, per unit cost could very well go down by 10-20mil for block 2

rafale is somewhere at $200-250mil btw
but no direct comparison like f-35 vs kf-21 where there are specifically similar contract / service agreements

>>64070822
oh and lifetime cost (estimates) are also know
>$400mil f-35
>$200mil kf-21

the f-35 is a bit more capable though
which explains some of the discrepancy
but against best korea it won't matter (maybe against china, but that'll mostly depends on Meteor performance anyway)

>>64070376
200 is small here. The JSF costs tens of billions in R&D (depending on how you measure it). Then there's the capex for the manufacturing and tooling. 200 airframes at 100 million per is only 20 billion. So half of more of the cost is still fixed.

>>64070845
Why try to compare a 5th gen to a 4th gen that MIGHT someday become 5th gen?

>>64070822
>>64070845

nigga what hopium are you huffing on.

>the f-35 is a bit more capable though

A bit? They are _literally_ generations apart. The current flyaway cost for an f-35 is estimated around $85m. The kf-21 hasn't even entered production and the best estimates are around $70m going as far as $110m per unit.

So for around the same price you are getting a less capable aircraft. Since it uses an American engine you don't even get independence from the US.

The only saving grace is that Korean government might be so desperate to sell that they sweeten the deal with a hefty rebate like they just did with Indonesia.

The kf-21 is no more stealthy than a rafale or eurofighter, it has no internal weapons bay and a radar that is arguably worse than the one on the eurofighter. What again makes the kf-21 a good proposition?

>>64071114
>flyaway cost
For the USAF and members of the JSF*
And it's a metric that losses its meaning when you compare the F-35 with other fighters because most of the profit of LM is with the maintenance, the F-35 is hardware-as-a-service.

>>64069959
These only exists as an upgrade to the nuclear shating capable Tornado. Germany has no need or interest in aquiring more f35. If there were a cheaper, modern Euro plane already licensed for the b61 they'd have bought that instead.

the idea of europe having some clean-sheet 5th gen slither out of its asshole was always a complete fucking joke from the word 'go' anyway

there was no universe this would ever happen and abortions like koreas jet show just how foolish and idiotic fighter jet programs have become

>>64070822
>that's complete bullshit
It's not. The only way it's cheaper is if you compare it to the retarded Swiss procurement contract, but that's the same as saying the Typhoon costs 250M per unit because of the Saudi deal.

>>64070860
>billions in R&D
was about $9billion for the kf-21
tiny bit is shouldered by Indonesia (~7%)

>>64070868
>compare a 5th gen to a 4th gen
what exactly makes the kf-21 not 5th gen? what is it missing?

>>64071114
>an f-35 is estimated around $85m.
holy copium
on paper maybe and only for the US
for everyone else not

>>64071613
i literally compared korean procurement contract cost
same country, similar type of service contract

and you're not seriously gonna suggest further service / repairs / expansions for the f-35 will be cheaper than for a domestic korean product!?

>>64071728
>what exactly makes the kf-21 not 5th gen? what is it missing?
Internal weapons bays and RAM.

More powerful engines and radars would help it compete against the F-22/F-35 as well.

Even with IWBs and RAM, it would still be the "baby" 5th gen falling short in most other respects.


It would probably be better than the SU-57 though if that's any consolation.

>>64069679 (OP)
/k/ is never wrong. Anons were calling this when the FCAS was announced. IIRC it would be proof of the death of multinational arms projects.

>>64071749
>It would probably be better than the SU-57 though if that's any consolation.
kek

>>64071749
Not him.
>F-35
The KF-21 is lighter and with slight more thrust.

>F-22
It still have to show that its TWR and TVC is actually relevant in real life. The only thing would be the supercruise but that isn't a criteria for 5th gen.

>>64071728
>what exactly makes the kf-21 not 5th gen? what is it missing?
Everything that defines a 5th gen. It doesn't have the ability to be an AWACS, it doesn't have a secure A/A network to work with the rest of the fleet, it doesn't have a DAS, it doesn't have true stealth capabilities (at most like the SU57 lmao).
The list goes on and on and on.

>>64071757
>IIRC it would be proof of the death of multinational arms projects
Nah, GCAP is still looking pretty solid.

>>64071780
>The KF-21 is lighter and with slight more thrust.
And? With 5th gens you want VLO and amazing radars/SA systems.

>>64071780
>The KF-21 is lighter and with slight more thrust.
And has a larger RCS and a worse radar...

>>64071805
>wha-whatabout...
>goalpost: moved

>>64071780
>The KF-21 is lighter and with slight more thrust.
>barely more thrust with 2 engines
LMAO

>>64071807
Anon, you're the one trying to move the goalposts.

I never said the F-35 was going to out-dogfight the KF-21, but it DOES outmatch it in the modern battlespace, where you can't just shrug off radar, stealth, and BVR missiles.


Your cope about the KF-21 being lighter and with more thrust means fuck all in the real world.

Again, the KF-21 is NOT 5th gen, and even with IWBs and RAM coatings would fall short of the F-35 and F-22 in any real world combat scenario.

>>64071757
>IIRC it would be proof of the death of multinational arms projects.
Only ones that include France

>>64071809
Should I mention soviets had in service AB Turbofans of the 6000-7000 lbs class when the US couldn't go beyond 5000 lbs 30 years after?

>>64071810
>More powerful engines and radars would help it compete against the F-22/F-35 as well.
Then don't mention the engines, dumbfuck

>>64071828
Are you retarded? Both sides surpassed 5000 lbf on turbofan engines by the mid-1960s

>>64071831
Anon it's just a fact.

It's almost the ONLY "5th" gen fighter with engines that produce less than 30,000lbf of thrust.

>F-22
>35,000 lbf

>F-35
>43,000lbf

>J-20
>30,000-40,000lbf depending on which engines that particular airframe has installed

>SU-57
>32,000-33,000lbf

>KF-21
>22,000lbf

The only other "5th" gen fighters even similar are the HAL AMCA, and the J-35 (which is a carrier-based fighter and is a different beast entirely)

>>64071864
>The only other "5th" gen fighters even similar are the HAL AMCA,
Jesus Christ I never saw such a grave insult on /k/ before. Fucking hell.

>>64071864
>insists upon himself

>>64071888
He's right, why don't you prove what currently makes the KF-21 a 5th gen?

>>64071892
>he's right
Lmao even.
Should I mention the original USN 5th gen program was supposed to use engines similar to the F414?
He's just a retard and he should understand that.
The reason the US cancelled the old 5th gen programs and forced the JST to use a single engine was because the F119 development turned to be far more expensive and protracted than expected.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-x.htm

>>64071898
So you can't provide a single aspect that makes the KF-21 even remotely 5th gen? Got it.

>>64071898
Again, I said more powerful engines would HELP it compete with other active 5th gens, not that they're required for it to be 5th gen at all.

As I said, it needs internal weapons bays, and radar absorbing material to reduce the RCS further to be considered a proper 5th gen fighter. The stronger radar and better engines suggestion was only because as it is even if it had radar absorbing materials and internal weapons bays, it still would be outclassed by the other in-service 5th gen fighters around the world making it the "baby" 5th gen.

Cmon Northrup, make it happen.

>>64071904
>deflection
As I said I'm not him, I'm not here to discuss what's a 5th gen but to say the mention of the engines is retarded.

>>64071916
>As I said, it needs internal weapons bays, and radar absorbing material to reduce the RCS further to be considered a proper 5th gen fighter.
And a complete redesign of every single design choice.

>>64071916
> would HELP it compete with other active 5th gens,
How exactly? MTOW? climb rate? Arguably the only thing that matters is SC to reduce IR signature but it seems nobody considers that as a problem to consider the F-35 a 5th gen.

>>64071793
>pic
Jesus

KF-21 is the F/A-181 from ArmA III

>>64071932
post your passport

>>64069966
But does France routinely build "the whole widget" themselves because they're better than the others or because they can't find anyone willing to work with them?

>>64071797
>>64071821
Maybe that's the key because the non-arms projects that are similar, like ESA's Columbus module on ISS, have all been cocked up because of France and/or Germany. Maybe they just can't play nice with others.

>>64070769
>>64071114
>>64071810
The F-35, has already been compromised:

>Americans decided to sell F-35 to Singapore.
>Doesn't realize that Singapore is another Communist China province.
>Singapore allowed PLAAF 'technician' to inspect the F-35 in the name of Chinese brotherhood and supremacy
>Just a year later F-35 got surpassed by advanced Shenyang FC-31 version.

I laughed hard when I saw news that the US is going to sell F-35s to Singapore. The moment those jets land in Singapore there is going to be an army of Chinese spies ready to dig into whatever areas they haven't stolen already. Many seething Australians on /k/ have already been sounding the alarm since the US decided to sell the F-35 to Singapore as they believe it compromises Australia's air defense to China. While the US can afford to replace the F-35 with something new in 20 years Australians are going to be stuck with them for at least 50.

>>64073981
>(((Singapore)))
lol.

>>64070112
Fuck off we're full

>>64070139
>Brits not wanting to work with Germany
Not wrong, but the French are an even more kind of insidious and damaging cancer than even the Germans (again look at Eurofighter)

>>64070145
>extra 15% on a 6th gen program
>proportionally tiny
Why make your nationality so clear, lmao

>>64070303
All plane generations are, it's a lockheed marketing tool for stealth (ie 5th gen)
Nobody mentions 1/2/3, nobody knows what the fuck a 4 or fucking 4.5 apparently is because its all being winged retroactively, and 6th gen is now a holdover of the 5th gen lockheed marketing

>>64070622
This is bait
Not even a frog nigger would spout this drivel btw

>>64070845
>a bit more
Begone gook

>>64071757
Nigger the current top dog is a multinational arms project

>>64069679 (OP)
While China has 3 "6th gens" ins development simultaneously...

>>64075305
Yep “6th” gens, so i don’t care, not implessive no matter how much they intentionally fly these at low altitude over people.

i genuinely feel bad for europeans right now, holy shit
can they do literally anything right anymore?

>>64075318
GCAP is still going strong for now.

>>64075305
>>64075311
what makes you say they aren't 6th gen

>>64075318
You're right, lets talk about the Constellation class instead!

>>64069679 (OP)
Gee, no one expected this outcome. French military industrial complex proving yet again not willing to work with international customers.

>>64070415
>none of the GCAP partners are even doing testings on that
>What was Project Mosquito
>What is ACP Tranche 2
Talking out your arse, Japan is already working with Boeing Australia for testing autonomous teaming using the MQ-28

>>64070649
>France is undisputedly the first western yuros that will be like 1/3 full of muzzie and negros anyway, so that's very fitting

Actually they are already well past that point.

>>64075028
The F-35 has several nation's aerospace industries involved but it's mostly Lockmart, most of the time. Lockheed is a pretty competent prime integrator, too. That's hugely different than the squabbling over percentages for FCAS.

>>64075343
No energy weapons and can't go suborbital.

>>64070298
>it's suicidal to be dependent on it
It'd be interesting to see if this is still your opinion when France is stuck flying 4th gens in 2050.

>>64070376
>questionable if this has any big influence beyond 200+ airframes
Frere...

>>64070288
Gerald R Ford for France

>>64075919
>No energy weapons
how do you know

>>64077739
I mean, i'd say the same for why you think it's 6th gen.

It's a tailless prototype airframe, we don't know the engines, we don't know the computers/sensors, we don't know any characteristics besides what can be gleaned from the photos and videos, which outside of the basic airframe shape/size, is fuckall.

It very well likely is simply an advanced 5th gen, maybe 5.5th gen if you want to blend generations.

>>64077754
>i'd say the same for why you think it's 6th gen.
i'm not even sure what gen it is as i'm not too knowledgeable on planes, which is why i'm asking you this stuff

>>64070288
We're going bankrupt this year, it's over. No more shiny military gear for us.

>>64075343
im pretty sure these arent even tech demonstrators, or anything indicative of a final product. theyre likely putting out various tail/wing configurations to study

>>64077739
Lack of bragging.

>>64077967
I mean, I would say a prototype airframe is by its very nature, a technology demonstrator, it's just demonstrating the airframe technology instead of the engines, radar, etc.

>>64077988
they don't often brag about new things

>>64075012
except that they do
start browsing several comment sections on one of the most popular french defense site just to see how deluded and insane frogniggers can get
Their inner core isn't that much different from vatniggers

> https://www.opex360.com/2025/07/10/le-danemark-confirme-son-intention-dacquerir-dix-f-35a-supplementaires/
> https://www.opex360.com/2025/07/11/lallemagne-negocie-lachat-de-quinze-chasseurs-bombardiers-f-35a-supplementaires/

No wonder france is such a pozzed shithole, and it will only get worse from now on.
The likes of Le pen is a civnat cuck at best.
Fuck frogniggers and fuck francistan

>>64079808
did Pierre steal your highschool sweetheart or what's with all the seething?

>>64069679 (OP)
FCAS always makes me think of fetal alcohol syndrome.

>>64079816
no ? but a frog stole my bike and ate all of my chicken wings

>>64079816
pierre was too busy sucking dick while smoking and calling it art

>>64069679 (OP)
>Dassault throws a tantrum when belgium wants to become a partner and pay some of the costs because F35
You cant make this shit up. Does Dassault only hire retards

>>64080004

yeah fuck them, they demanded we cancel the last 11 orders of F-35s we did

that's definitely not happening lol... arrogant pricks.. who are they to decide how we do our national security

if they keep acting up instead of just starting, they won't make their 2040 deadline

it could be they have to order F-35s themselves in the end

what a joke

>>64070622

>The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35

no, you cannot ever upgrade that into the same stealth as F-35

they need to start over

and that's what they're doing .. or rather, they're gonna argue about doing it for 3 more years

>>64080037
Nah their plan is to upgrade the rafale until at least 2040-45

FCAS is 2045-50 at the earliest.

>>64080119

damn, that makes the F35 even more needed

>>64080037
>we need 11 more F-35
it's just for linguistic parity so we can have on Dutch and one French

>>64069720
Put aside that France is indeed better than German,
I suspect it's mostly to protect themselves from Germany being a retard putting retarded constraint on ground attack capability because they are still traumatized or to forbid export because they are the equivalent of a prey in a world of predator (which would lead all clients to chose US or Chinese aircraft out of desperation), betraying Europe again, selling themselves to the US tryin to stay ahead of their eternal rival: France.

>>64070376
>that was the entire point of Dassault nEUROn
Done under Dassault direction, completed in no time despite involving even more countries. A success, probably because Germany didn't care enough to fuck everything up trying to establish dominance over France.

Meanwhile, France is developing its wingman type UCAV.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/10/09/france-kicks-off-development-of-wingman-drone-for-rafale-fighter-jet/

Also reportedly evaluating the conditions for withdrawing from the Eurodrone program
Remember the Eurodrone? The drone that German didn't even want to have weapons because that would be unethical to kill with the operator further away? And now everyone is wondering why we don't already have micro killer-drone with AI guidance?

I'm wondering if it's because France now see an opportunity to use Aarok instead.
https://www.twz.com/frances-largest-ever-drone-has-broken-cover

>>64070622
The Rafale definitely lack some features of the F-35. Like the 360° IR sensor.
But it's more a matter of the F-35 being seriously overrated when it's a forever prototype, that lost the ability to supercruise when the B variant VTOL requirement made all versions fatter, and apparently it's in dire need of an engine upgrade.
The F-35 look stealthier but so does the Chinese knock-off and I wouldn't expect much from it.

The Rafale don't have rear stealth, especially not with all the pylons, but the F35 carry very little without pylons and its exhaust isn't really stealthy either.

>>64070756
yes! let's make ourselves even more dependent on the US so next time the next POTUS can deactivate all but the most basic function if you refuse to kneel to him

>>64080488
>betraying Europe again, selling themselves to the US tryin to stay ahead of their eternal rival: France
Funny that France has two eternal rivals that she's consistently fought to a standstill over the centuries, and yet she's still standing. Soon, they'll all be united under some Caliph and we won't have to argue over European fighter programs because the only European countries left will be buying F-35s.
>minimum expected capabilies (sic) not achieved
That graphic is painful. These are 30+ years old designs still trying to pass themselves off as modern aircraft.
>comparing fighters to America's back bench fighter at the time

>>64080558
To all frog detractors: the Eurodrone is what happens when you let kraut retardation seep into multinational projects unchecked. The fundamental issue of krauts is that they use civvie rules for military business, because they're retarded, and see the military as public servants in uniform.
This stems from an older kraut sneed & cope, namely that they were basically intended to be NATO's war slaves in the case of conflict between them and the WP. Once the Wall fell, and eventually the USSR went away, so the potential for conflict pretty much disappeared, they forced their civvie turbosperg shit upon the armed forces, as a sort of "now that we're fully in charge, we'll do things our way".

Ironically, despite Westoid Bonn-ite reeing about fighting their Ossi "brothers", the Eastoids didn't see it the same way. They didn't really have much in the way of compunction about killing their Western "brethren". I suspect the whole "brothers shouldn't fight brothers", which formed the basis of Westoid Ostpolitik, was just another Soviet aghitprop.

>>64080488

>swiss airforce

Do frenchies really think endorsement by non-waring nation is something to use as advertisement after their 0-3 performance?


That said: I support france to take over 80% of the NGF development if they are willing to fork out 80% of the cost.

if you have problem and you give a Frenchman a glass of wine, everything is possible
if you have problem and you give a German a stein of beer. He'll complain that the foam isn't high enough, that the beer isn't cold enough, the glass doesn't have the right shape for that beer and besides regulations ban beer before 5pm so he's going to have to fill in a BadeZ 15 form to launch a formal complaint.

Frankly I can't blame the French because working with the Germans is like getting your wisdom teeth pulled trough your arse

>>64082136

Objectively false. I can tell you have never met a frenchman.

The only reason you'd think the frog is chill is because he refuses to speak any language other than his own. If you could understand him he'd ramble about how french invented wine and how whatever you just gave him is satans diarrhea.

But we can make it scientific:

Show any person a man from Quebec and one from Toronto.

Anyone can immediatly detect who's an obnoxious cunt and who's the anglo. They grew up in the same country, same education, same standard of living but one of them was influenced by culture of arrogance and superiority complexes.

>>64082398
why should anyone care what some fucking leaf thinks about working with the French or the Germans?
you've never met frog or a kraut never mind worked with one.
as for Quebec and torronto
isn't torronto like 50%+ pajeets and chinks while Quebec is still 80 percent plus white

>>64069679 (OP)
I blame the ever perfidious teutons

>>64082463
> said frog, while paris is 60% full of niggers and sandniggers
Lol
Lmao, even
> muh quebec
Still wont be frogistan :^)

>>64069966
>when was the last time Germany or god forbid Spain did anything?
spain is one of the larest munitions makers in the EU......


https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/company/subsidiaries/rheinmetall-expal-munitions

>>64070093
The UK is on its way to becoming a failed state due to Bexit and brown neo imperialist ati europeans born in places like indua, uganda and nigeria importing more like them as well as russuan quislings like farage, it's an unstable borderline failed state.

watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0bmJlrhRg4

>>64083198
>Coinbase
What the FUCK

>>64082398
>the frog is chill is because he refuses to speak any language other than his ow
Fuck you monsieur!
We speak the language of commerce when needed and we show more respect to others country than say the current Potus.
Also point out many English words came from French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin

>>64080488
> Still posting swiss evaluation
Why should I take a bunch of faggy (((bankers))) in any defense matter seriously?

>>64083170
and you must be a torrontant because your very post screams pajeet
me ne frego

>>64082015
>if they are willing to fork out 80% of the cost.
lol lmao, like that would ever happen.
The best thing that could happen for Germany is that they immediately end it and ask the UK and Japan, if Germany can buy the finished jet with some production being done in Germany (like how it is with the F35 right now). That would already be a better deal than they would ever get from the French and that should tell you all you need to know about French cooperation

>>64080488
>again with the FAKE swiss evaluation that has zero sources outside of a french blogpost.
The rafail is literally the worst european 4th gen fighter.

>>64080488
>comparing to F-18 C/D
How out of date is this? The US stopped production of that model in 2000 so i've gotta assume it's pretty old.

>>64082015
> 80%
That won’t happen, not without french gov start axeing projects left and right.
Dassault is literally the biggest welfare whore rn

>>64080037
>2040 deadline
and the funny thing is that is the deadline for the prototype lmao. meanwhile gcap will have a prototype by 2027

>>64080488
That’s from Switzerland and they tested a factory new Rafale F4 vs a beaten up German tranche 1+ EF lol

>>64089580
Source ?

>>64091013
Look for the 2008 Swiss trials, particularly the upgrade path page. It mentions the aircraft tested and their future upgrades. The EF being German can just be looked up on the official Swiss army website, it’s a 2008 article. I would post it but I’m using private tab.

It tells something about the EF is they can't be bothered to send their "best" plane to gain a new market.
No wonder the UK stopped production.

>come to /k/
>retards as usual
>everyone still misses the point
it's all about the projectile, not the delivery system, just like guns

>>64093078
It’s just that Germany used to sell the EFs at the beginning and the UK later took over, and Germany is a crumbling country. That’s also why Austria uses Tranche 1s lol

>>64069720
Germany can't make a fighter jet engine. 'nuff said.

https://youtu.be/LPZi3GasXZw?feature=shared&t=396

Yeah, now that's the CEO I want. He knows how to run a project, understand the issues regarding schizophrenic governance, understand the issues that comes with turboschizo politics melding, and how you're getting cucked working with subcrontactors you can't choose because politics WILL be involved (hello ULA). He simply knows his shit.
t. IT project manager, at my own level I face the exact same issues he does -including politics involvment- and it's already nightmarish. Thank god I could at least get rid of the pajeets subcontractors.
If the markets weren't close to levels not seen since the internet bubble era, I'd buy some stonks.

>>64093389
Reminder that the Rafale doesn't and wont be having thrust vectoring

>>64093520
Reminder that a German jet fighter doesn't even have any thrust in the first place

>>64083198
>least seething afro-frognigger

>>64080488
>betray Europe again
They might have taken the mantle but before them it was you, fucking stupid smelly cheese eating garlic nigger

>>64080579
>4 Luneburg lenses on F35
>1 on the J20
>0 on Frogshit
Lmao

>>64083198
>crypto
Lmao, fuck off you mutt

>>64083949
>fuck you were polite fuck Drumph English is actually French due to 18th century scientific loanwords REEEEE
It's a germanic language, it is germanic at its core and is germanic in structure
Once again you dumb frog faggots can't help yourselves

How do you pronounce "FCAS"?

>>64093541
>>64093551
>>64093560
>>64093568
Oh lawd this nigga is cryin lmao

>>64093524
> doesn't have any thrust
better than being the shittiest 4G turbofan aka M88 is already a huge achievement by itself.
But dont worry, Rafale F5 would totally be a capable "omnirole" in 2040 - or whatever frogistan spelling it supposed to be :^)

>>64093583

>Having no engine so you can't even take off is better than having an engine
lmao the state of this pathetic retard. You lost, grow up, be an adult. Jesus. Maybe you should power your unflying anvils with helium, surely that will work as well as last time.

>>64093602
> Having no credible arguments so start spouting gibberish instead
i accept your concession :^)