Thread 64213038

Airguns. Are they viable weapons?

For discussion purposes a typical big bore airgun is similar to a blackpowder musket or suppressed subsonic 300 blackout in power with the capacity of a revolver:
- 900 fps
- 275 grain .45 cal cast lead hollow point which expands to 1" and penetrates 16" of ballistic gelatin
- 6 round magazine
- semiautomatic
- 110db
- 2 MOA at 50 meters

yeah

>>64213038 (OP)
Yes, they are. Here in the US we generally don't pay too much attention to them because firearms are generally more affordable. That being said, countries that have banned firearms sometimes allow their citizens to own airguns for recreation and hunting.

>>64213038 (OP)
If you're British or something, yeah. That's basically a quiet .45 acp

>>64213038 (OP)
Yeah, a 5-6 shot .45 pistol in a rifle profile is inferior to real firearms, but it's still a credible weapon.

>>64213038 (OP)
Sure, just don't go around claiming its better than a firearm or that it's the perfect weapon for an apocalypse scenario or something

>>64213038 (OP)
are they viable? yes
are they practical? no

if you can use a real gun, just use it

They seem like a half decent option in a European WROL situation where you can't get a gun from a black market and that things are going to return to a sense of normalcy.

>>64213038 (OP)
You can't kill someone by shooting them with air, silly OP~

>>64214216
oh yeah??
*blows you*

So, the real question: do pneumatic slug throwers have any advantage over guns that use the air to fire arrows? Seems like you'd get better range, stability, and penetration, and since you only have a couple of shots worth of pressure, ammo capacity isn't a big deal.

>>64214322
This, it seems that arrows utilise their energy and velocity better on target (they have great penetration because of their needle shape) and the bottleneck with Airguns is usually the low maximum velocity and total stored energy.

IIRC these airbows have a really low autonomy and reloading is difficult since you need to slide your arrow all the way.

I've been thinking about gas guns which have a much better autonomy due to the gas being stored as a liquid. Maybe they could be made with short barrels for half sized arrows?

>>64214322
the arrows penetrate better due to their higher mass and the fact they can have sharp tips. They're less accurate, you have to manually load each shot, and the arrows are significantly more expensive than slugs.

>and since you only have a couple of shots worth of pressure
There are airguns which are not as powerful as the ones that get like 3-4 shots on a tank, yet are still plenty powerful enough to be used as a weapon, yet are also repeaters. Which is preferable depends on your application. If I was hunting durr I'd rather have the arrow. If I was defending a shithole apartment from cultural enrichment I'd rather have a moderately powerful semiauto like an Edgun Leshiy2, or even a lever-action repeater.

>>64214494
>I've been thinking about gas guns which have a much better autonomy due to the gas being stored as a liquid
The problem with most of these is that the pressure is quite low. Compare CO2 and Nitrogen for example. You can get 6000 psi compressed nitrogen, far more powerful than any air gun. On the other hand, CO2, which is stored as a liquid like in paintball guns, maxes out at about 950 psi. The exact equilibrium pressure depends on temperature but it's about 950 psi at room temp.

>>64214322
>Seems like you'd get better range
I dunno about that, an arrow is quite high drag. A even a lowly .22LR is lethal to distances well beyond that of a warbow, and will travel much farther as well.

I've always been fascinated by pic related. It's amazing to me that Lewis and Clark took one of these with them in the 1800s

>>64214517
>If I was defending a shithole apartment from cultural enrichment
what in the racist dogwhistle is that supposed to mean, sir? DOWNVOTED

>>64214517
>>64214494
you dont need to reload after everyshot there are special airguns for dart shooting with different capacity.

>>64214686
>you dont need to reload after everyshot
With an air bow you certainly do.

>there are special airguns for dart shooting with different capacity.
Yes, I just said that. But the ones that people seem to be focusing on ITT, like the one OP posted, are single-shot manually loaded.

>>64214322
It could be useful as a survival rifle since the "propellent" can be repressurized by a single man with the right equiptment, while the pellets are space efficient to store (and maybe even make more of if you find lead and have a hand mold).
Give a man 500 pellets, a pressure pump, and an airgun and you got a pretty good survivalist.

Stuff like >>64214634 was effective back in the early 1800s. Only problem is they werent efficent to manufacture in mass. Even though I think the austrians experimented a bit for their yagers back during the napoleonics.

>>64214697
Many, maybe most tank-powered airguns are semi and some are FA.

>>64214934
>maybe most tank-powered airguns are semi
Are you talking about CO2 tanks or Air tanks?

CO2 airguns are often semi, and sometimes FA. They are quite weak though, like >>64214517 explains.
Those with *air* tanks are rarely semi. Most are manual-action repeaters. The powerful ones that people are talking about ITT as being similar to a pistol round, like the one OP posted, are NOT semi. Look at the pic: there's no magazine, and you can clearly see the bolt handle which needs to be operated for every shot. Stuff like that, the Zeus, the Airforce Texan, are all single-shots.

>>64215861
Air tanks. CO2 is weak.
Airforce has 12rnd rotary mags, Benjamin does 3 shot trays, Bintac has 6 rnd rotary mags and 20+ rnd trays. Most look like this.

>>64215962
>gee Timmy, TWO airtanks?

>>64215951
>>64215962
Yes, those are the mid-tier ones like I mentioned in >>64214517

None of those are as powerful as a handgun, most of them are manual action. Most are manual-action repeaters like I just mentioned.

>>64213038 (OP)
Are you an American felon, or do you live in a restrictive country?

Did anyone ever get a decent caselman put together in the last decade?

>>64213038 (OP)
With those numbers? Heck yeah. It might be good to just have one anyway.

>>64214237
"Momma... I just killed a man... put a bullet in his head..."

>>64216641
This guy was coming up with something really cool using a 30 round chain magazine (think like a MG belt but encased in a stick magazine) but its seems to be stuck in development hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjy7QAuC92I

>>64213038 (OP)
Their viable but you've essentially getting pistol performance from a rifle sized package.

That being said, they tend to sidestep a lot of laws and are way quieter than most guns.

>275 grain
>900fps
>45 cal

The fuck? That’s 45 super territory. Is there a “recharging” period in between shots?

>>64219079
no but a cylinder will only get you a hand full of shots and reloading those takes a lot longer

>>64213038 (OP)
Air guns have an insane amount of variety between them. If you're talking about the like ultra-expensive PCP air guns, yeah but you better keep a bicycle pump on you or extra canisters on you.

Pellet guns like break barrels and pistols are more of a survival gun because even though they can cause similar damage to .22 weapons within 40 meters, it's better to have it as a gun for small game or as a Liberator type deal (kill your enemy with the weak gun and take their gun) rather than your main fighting weapon. Air guns like break barrels are pretty affordable, but if you're spending the money on PCP air guns you might as well just get a low end AR-15 or a 10/22 or something

anything irl like the Tihar?

IDK man, they're becoming more viable with the years. I wouldn't want to be shot with one, but if they're better than other ranged weapons? You have a dozen pistol-power shots MAX on the biggest guns, and while they cost basically nothing to shoot they're 2000+ dollars.
Even worse are the ones that cost two monthly salaries and fire about 3 shots per tank, only to barely get to the power of a cheap/shitty bolt action. I wouldn't risk it in any combat situation where my attacker has a real gun.
Even if you're in europe you can get a 200+ pound compound crossbow for 200 bucks, which is arguably even deadlier if you take the sweet investment of 10 minutes and a file to make a pile of bladed boltheads.
I just don't see the potential unless you're a pest exterminator, or european and want something multishot. Maybe if the better models drop to something around 400 in the future, then it would be an economic ''hunting rifle'' alternative.
>>64219143
Wait, which breakbarrels are even remotely in .22 range? I know about the hatsan carnivore, i have one, but it sucks to prime when i haven't had my morning cofffee.

>>64219193
I'll keep it real with you chief, the only reference I have is it goes straight through an entire crow longways. No I didn't do that intentionally

Also Hatsan says that the .22 version of the Zada is around 900-1000 FPS so. There are others like .30 caliber break barrels that are like 800 FPS but carry more energy

>>64213038 (OP)
The .50 cal ones will kill a cape buffalo. So yea depending on what you want it for it'll get the job done.

I was recently thinking one of these might perform well with flechettes.

>>64219151
https://www.airgundepot.com/seneca-aspen.html

The Seneca Aspen is the closest. Most manual air guns either use a lever, or you can hook up a bicycle pump to the air canister. For the Tikhar it is more like they just strapped the bicycle pump right to the handguard of the rifle which is cool but no professional company does this as far as I know.

There are also some air venturi rifles that have the same general look too

https://www.airventuri.com/av/featured-airgun-airsoft-brands/air-venturi/

>>64220055
Neat

>>64213038 (OP)
I wish they were.
I love the idea of a silenced weapon that you can make bullets for yourself by simply buying lead in bulk and melting it down to make bullets.

>>64223475
I mean you could buy a musket for the bullet thing, but that's not awful quite

>>64223505
>musket
I mean for shtf scenario so I don't need anything else but lead.

>>64214237
>How can I be homophobic, I BLEW HIS FUCKIN HEAD OFF

>>64223515
And powder, but there are like 500 guides out there on how to make BP and it's the shit you can get from the ground or scavenge for

AND IT'S LEGAL!

>>64213038 (OP)
Pre-ordered this fucker as soon as Jorg announced it was for sale. Should be here soon, so I'll test it for you homosexuals

>>64213038 (OP)
Did you mean "how can I make my paintball gun lethal"?

>>64224232
attach a bayonet

>>64214567
An airbow can fire an arrow at like twice the speed of a warbow.

>>64223706
These were made to maximize penetration out of the unbelievably shit tier energy limits of German airguns. If they were made for real airguns they'd probably punch through almost anything that walks at only a few hundred fps.

>>64223475
>silenced weapon
Ehheh heh heh no. Even the lower end break barrels a'la Gamo can be nearly as loud as a standard velocity .22lr

For anyone else who thinks a PCP can't have power look at the AEA stuff. .72 cal of 600gr at 1000fps is more power and way way more impact punch than a hot 5.56

>>64228394
can you use manual air pumps for PCPs?
and can you use airsoft scopes for them or live ammunition?

>>64228394
can you use manual air pumps for PCPs?
and can you use airsoft scopes for them or do you need real scopes for real firearms?

>>64219998
>air cartridges that fire an arrow
this is such a great idea, why didn't people think of this before?
someone should make a 3D printed kit to convert like a Nerf shotgun to fire these, lol.

>>64229225
That German guy from the Slingshot Channel actually designed and produced a CO2 flechette pepperbox handgun, basically trying to abuse German gun law loopholes by coming up with a lethal handgun that could be sold like any airgun. You can see it here : >>64223706

Apparently it got banned in Germany anyway.

>>64223475
What movie is this? I know a Polish guy on FB who makes Girandoni repros, one day I'll get one.

>>64229481
>What movie is this?
it's one of the movies/episode from the best Sherlock Holmes adaptation ever made in 1984.

How dangerous are the air canisters?

>>64229593
The larger ones use scuba/paintball/airsoft regulators, the smaller ones you basically have to intentionally try to harm yourself with them.

>>64223706
If you upped the air pressure and mass of the darts this would be a fucking sick spearfishing gun.

>>64213038 (OP)
Yeah, probably. Better question is if nogunz countries even still have access to them. I think the bongs can have them but the Aussies can't. Same goes for these modern lever action crossbows.

>>64216649
That isn't a gay innuendo line from the song, is it? I mean yeah it's Freddie and we all know but that line ain't homo

>>64219143
They're really good as survival guns though. Incredibly quiet, ammo is lightweight and easy to store/carry, can take down small game easily which is realistically the main protein source (if not fish) in a survival scenario. Plus as you said they are indeed capable of killing a man in an emergency situation

>>64223475
>I love the idea of a silenced weapon that you can make bullets for yourself by simply buying lead in bulk and melting it down to make bullets.
Silenced 22lr with your own nailgun primer, piss and fishing weights made ammo

>>64213288
>If you're British

They have a joule limit but does that apply to airbows?

https://www.ammoland.com/2024/01/benjamin-airguns-m600-airbow-fastest-arrow-on-earth/

Scuba bro here, just figure out how to connect one of our tanks to the gun using a high pressure hose and wear it on your back. My steel 80 cu ft. tank fills to about 3500 psi.

>>64229648
Not really. You need a PCP to get enough power to reliably hunt anything larger than rodents or to have fast enough follow-up shots to not be completely useless for self defense, but then you need a source of 4500 psi compressed air. It's not impossible to do that with a high pressure hand pump, but it's not very practical either. High-powered PCPs are not especially quiet, comparable to a .22 subsonic out of a longish barrel. Quality PCPs are more expensive than real guns, plus a decent sized air tank and compressor and you're looking at probably $1000 minimum, and easily double that for better quality.

If you live in a country where you can buy guns, you'd be much better off buying a cheap bolt-action .22 or a 10/22 and spending the rest on ammo. Even standard .22 LR is going to be more powerful than all but the biggest and most expensive airguns, much cheaper to buy, much more reliable, much faster follow-up shots, don't require electricity or hours of hand pumping for each mag, don't require you to carry around a reserve air tank or compressor, and don't require anywhere near the same level of maintenance as an airgun or compressor. And you can barter with or for ammo if needed. Good luck doing that with .25 cal pellets.

>>64229710
You can buy the adapters easily. Most higher end air guns are 4500 PSI though. Lots of people use repurposed firefighting SCBA tanks.

>>64229710
But what if you run out?

>>64213038 (OP)
I bought a benjamin bulldog .357. They can be fun but they have their specific niches. If you can use a conventional firearm those are going to be much better/more fun for 90% of people.

They're great if you have a place with electricity to shoot at, but normal guns are too loud, although at that point a .177 break barrel would probably be better. Much less hassle and cheaper. With all the equipment and the having to wait ~5 minutes between taking about 8 shots for the air tank to refill, i would not recomend big bore air rifles to really anybody unless they have a specific need for them.

>>64230115
Refill your tank at a scuba/paintball shop or you dish out the money for a big boy compressor.

>>64229638
Airguns are cat A, same as non semi auto rimfire.

>>64213038 (OP)
All the big dangerous game animals in Africa can be taken with air rifles. Zeus .72 caliber shoots 750 and 500g bullets at over 900 and 1100 fps.
You can flatline anything in the world with that.

>>64230370
This. Also, there's a lot of tools that run on compressed air so you can write a compressor off as a business expense or explain it away as a tool for home improvement.

>>64231586
Completely different compressors.

>>64231586
Except a normal shop compressor doesn't get anywhere near high enough pressure to fill an airgun, and all but the largest breathing air compressors don't produce enough air volume to run tools without pre-charging a bunch of tanks and wearing out the compressor prematurely. For regular use you would need an industrial-grade breathing air compressor and they are not cheap.

>>64231653
>why break barrels are better for an air guns intended purpose:

>>64214634
Are there any /k/ historians that can tell me how this thing worked?
I've seen it a lot, but I never understood how it could fire so many rounds before needing to be recharged.
It was invented before the steam engine, and I think even before rubber was a thing, so how did they seal it and how did they pump the pressure up so high? How long could a charge last before the air seeped out of the pressure container?
Like I didn't think a handheld pump that could make pressures high enough for this to be effective, sans rubber, sans modern precision manufacturing, could even be made, so this thing fascinates me

>>64228394
They're already quieter than a normal gun. And suppressors for them are completely unregulated. You can order a sound moderater for your airgun for under $200 online.

>>64213038 (OP)
Yes I have stopped a home invasion 4 people breaking into my duplex neighbor who was a shitbag abusive crack dealer but still can't have people breaking into the same house my unit is under when they heard my double barrel being chambered they stopped going upstairs and ran the fuck off losers didn't consider what if the homeowner is armed.

That was the aea harpoon I would've gotten 2 of them but had to reload if the other 2 came I'd likely be fucked so I got a megalodon and it's served as a great edc in a quick holster sling bag from vertx.

I am a cannabis breeder so I can't have firearms to defend my homegrows but use big bore airguns and have insurance in case I had another home invasion attempt but this time I'm ready for a squad of fucking 10 if they tried again.

I live in a top 3 most dangerous city in America 100% serious topic here. They are also great truck guns because the legality in almost all states besides NJ and another one or two.

I replaced and fixed the valve pin first issue in a year of use, daily carry, and monthly range trips. It's more powerful than a 1911 and mine is 50 cal shooting 230 grain hollow point slugs around 850 to 900 fps.

>>64214216
Of course you can't kill somebody. We all know that a human body is harder than a concrete block.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlxcFSq5k8c
https://youtu.be/nEfnXrPqQAk?t=446

>>64231725
It used leather gaskets to keep the pressure, but it is stated that they had to be kept moist (with oil).
It had a backpack with a variety of stuff just to funtion, including the pump.
Pumping the stock reservoir 1500 (yes) times gave you an average of 30 shots with the power of a .22 short. That's how the pressure got up so high. You had to pump all day. It just worked by combining Gyro Gearloose tier mechanical autism and precise engineering unconstrained by mass-production limits.
In practicality you can probably understand why troops discarded this thing as soon as the wow-factor dropped off. Imagine having to take apart your Ruger 1022 and then do half a day's worth of labor to fill your mag.

>>64229648

Nah, I have owned some tricked out pcps. They are nowhere near as reliable as a firearm having delicate sealed moving parts and seals that go bad. They go bad whether used frequently or mostly stored because the rubber degrades over time. Easier to damage with dust, dirt, or sand.
Babied and kept indoors, taken out and only set on clean surfaces, they still are worse than a black powder firearm in terms of reliability. And you can make both cast bullets and black powder.

I like airguns, get far more fun than firearms with them because I can shoot them more often. But taking an airgun out in the field for survival, getting dust and dirt on it, having branches in brush scratch at it, it won't hold up even close to a basic black powder gun that cost 20% as much.

>>64229638
in some European countries airguns are restricted, 24j in my country. And in some countries like mine crossbows are banned. But since there aren't any customs within the EU, you can just order them from a country where they aren't banned and you can get it delivered to your door.

>>64213038 (OP)
Anybody who cannot own real guns is fertilizer
>>>/toy/

>>64231725
The key trick is how the pneumatic valve works. It's simple and ingenious. The valve has a little mushroom-shaped piece inside it, the "cap" of the mushroom is too big to fit through the opening of the valve, and it is sealed with a leather washer like the other anon explains. The result is that the pressure inside the tank also acts to hold the valve shut. The higher the pressure inside the more force there is compressing the washer to seal it. It's basically the same idea as a schrader valve or poppet-type check valve.

picrel is a simplification of how the tank works. the grey thing is the valve, the brown part is the leather washer. Normally the internal pressure in the tank holds the valve shut. When the gun fires the action strikes the valve stem rearward, this overcomes the internal air pressure and allows a little air to come out of the tank which fires the shot and then closes the valve again, like if you let a little air out of a tire by pressing on the valve stem.

Modern air guns still use that system, though they also have a regulator so the pressure is consistent from shot to shot. A problem with older unregulated air guns like the Girandoni is that every shot is a little weaker than the previous one.

>>64215962
>bintac T9
Thx, this is the one ai have been waiting for.

>>64219143
>if you're spending the money on PCP air guns you might as well just get a low end AR-15 or a 10/22 or something
>in america
Yeah.

>>64220055

man that seneca aspen looks cool. pcp, onboard pump, external hammer spring adjustment. 800 fps in .22 stock, with a good trigger. if it had wood furniture i would buy it right fucking now.

>>64232148
I have your other pic saved, lol
Have you considered >>64219998

>>64233571
>>64233887
Thanks Anons, always fun listening to you guys explain stuff

>>64234115
People forget that .22's are exempt from most all California gun laws IIRC

If I became a felon I'd 100% have an airgun for self defense.

>>64236581
Lol /k/ has definitely gotten slower I appreciate it :)

Yes that harpoon is the one I had when the duplex neighbor was being home invaded they heard it racked and ran out scurried away. Group of 4 pretending to be cops I would've gotten 2 for sure if they got my door but then had to reload so I upgraded to a megalodon to be group proof.

>>64238270
I meant specifically loading your shells with flechettes. I think the results would be pretty lethal and are not (currently) against the law. What do the shells look like anyway? Easy to load your own?

>>64238270
Its better than the alternative, which is a bunch of 18 year old Timmys with PSA ARs making garbage takes on airguns because they finally got an AR.

>>64231725
It worked pretty well. You can look up the diagram of the lockwork, but basically the firing pin hits backwards into the valve of the reservoir. Because the air pressure holds the valve shut it's harder to hit when full, so you get some amount of regulation.

Pumping up took a long time, it was done in the morning when the air was cold so the heat of the day would increase the pressure. IIRC you had 10-20 powerful shots, three bottles per shooter, no smoke, projectile similar to .45ACP and you could make repeated shots while laying flat on the ground unlike a muzzle loader.

It's problem was right in the middle of it : the huge complex brass casting and many moving parts that were fragile and hand fitted. It was a lot more expensive than any other military firearm and not as reliable or long lasting.

>>64240367
You use 12 ga wads you can stuff with anything so that's certainly an interesting idea.

Here is a video demo of #4 buckshot my choice of payload. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXhsdQcDmqg

>>64240635
100% the normie obsession and worship at the altar of ar15 and glocks made me never want either I'll stick to communist guns as a Slav thank you. We get a racial bonus to Eastern bloc gunsmithing I'd waste on NATO round options.

>>64213038 (OP)
No, they are not.

>>64242804
>racial bonus
I'm so sick of video game brained zoomers. Go outside and talk to a girl, dork.

>>64244533
You must be fun at parties, oh wait you dont get invited out do you?

>>64242791
Badass. I want a harpoon myself now. Unironically, what a time to be alive.

>>64244533
You can game on rainy days and go outside in good weather. I don't even game but those who are triggered by other's hobbies are more cringe losers than those who do enjoy games.

It's likely a superior hobby to people who watch noninteractable media. I happen to live on the water so I could game AND enjoy nature if I wanted to. I prefer kayaking and fishing but how is fishing a superior hobby to gaming?

>>64245048
Thanks matey, when whales be a-plenty the harpoon stands vigilant for the blubbered bastards.

(Statement on America's obesity epidemic or something poetic)