Why did it become a fundamental tenet that transitioning makes you become the opposite sex vs. just being an attempt to live like the opposite sex?

>>40100643 (OP)
because propaganda works by taking reasonable notions and distorting them into extremism

trans women are men
trans men are women

>>40100643 (OP)
Functionally, what's the difference?

>>40100657

/thread

>>40100643 (OP)
It's stupid and I feel like everyone knew it was the latter when we came out in 2013 and backwards. But it's not like acceptance was very high back then anyway

>>40102987
The difference is it's way easier to defend "I want to dress like a woman and use hormones and surgery to look and feel more like a woman physically. I'm basically a cool bodymodder" than it is to defend "I am a real woman you bigot. Respect my pronouns."

>>40100643 (OP)
except before ~2010 the mainstream consensus was that transitioning was a "sex change" and you went from male to female and it was a miracle of modern science, and that was that
the idea that actually you can't change your sex is an idea that stems from modern gender theory distinguishing gender identity, gender dysphoria, and transgender people from the idea of physical sex.

>>40103939
>before ~2010 the mainstream consensus was that transitioning was a "sex change"
I didn't diagree with that being how things were discussed before 2010.
I was asking why that became the way to think about a transition, not arguing it was a recent thing.

>>40103959
because transitioning changes most of the relevant characteristics of sex

>>40103910
who even unironically says something like that without already getting mocked? think of how everyone reacts to the "its maam" video. the rhetoric is only rly treated as you describe in chronically online spaces

>>40103962
I don't think that's really true. If it were it would be easier to argue estradiol just turns natal males into women, but in practice it only nets the user extremely modest breast tissue growth (~96% will ultimately land on at or less than an A cup) plus some mild skin and hair benefits (and if you start very young, possibly a little hip growth).
Part of the issue is so many mtfs fraud their social media pics with filters and feed into this mythology where there's much more of a transformation than what's actually happening in real life.
>>40104023
I mean, we are online now, so yeah. But you have this anon doing it here and now:
>>40103962
It's not a trivial topic since this sort of thing was literally what the Trump campaign ran on in 2024. It makes for an easy target when you have so much delusional thinking getting fed into unchecked instead of more people reality checking one another on the limits of what hormones and surgery actually do vs. what's smoke and mirrors bullshit.
It's just an especially bad combination when the filter frauders join forces with the people who unironically believe taking hormones turns you into a woman or mostly into a woman or whatever.

>>40104097
this is a lot of irrelevant words that in no way disprove that transitioning changes most of the relevant characteristics of sex
>but no I have le outdated study done on a bunch of 40 year olds on 2mg e

>>40104132
If we had a shit ton of cute female looking trannies everyone would spam their pics and videos everywhere and trannies people would like trannies for being hot.
Instead we have shit ton of ugly non-passing trannies spammed everywhere and the closest we get to hot ones are trannies like Hunter Schafer who are still fairly male looking but have good faces.
If hrt actually turned natal males into a mostly female form a lot more people would be taking it. Like as a thought experiment, suppose someone invented a machine that literally turns someone into the opposite sex e.g. if you're male it leaves you with a functional uterus and vagina and biology indistinguishable from a regular woman's. I don't think it's be controversial to claim such a machine would be used by a lot more people than hrt is used by people for transitions in real life. Calling what hrt does close to that hypothetical machine is just silly. It isn't close. A natal male on hrt is still far closer to other natal males not on hrt than to natal females.

>>40104235
>If we had a shit ton of cute female looking trannies everyone would spam their pics and videos everywhere and trannies people would like trannies for being hot.
we do, there's thousands of them who get spammed everywhere and endless amounts of tranny porn full off passoids
>Instead we have shit ton of ugly non-passing trannies spammed everywhere
we also have that because actually there's fucking 8 billion people in the world and some of them are ugly

now kill yourself, I won't be replying to you again

>>40100643 (OP)
>Why did it become a fundamental tenet that transitioning makes you become the opposite sex
Because it did make me into the opposite sex, at least 95% anyways and in every way that matters. It "became" the tenet when HRT and SRS became medical practices that exist, so in the 30s if not earlier. It was always considered a sex change long before tucute stuff existed.
>vs. just being an attempt to live like the opposite sex?
The way I'm living now is no different than any other women whom happen to have no uterus. It's not an "attempt" it's just my reality.


>>40104097
>Part of the issue is so many mtfs fraud their social media pics with filters and feed into this mythology where there's much more of a transformation than what's actually happening in real life.
Every tranny has an irl life too. It's extremely obvious when you don't pass just in the way other people treat you. That is why all but the most delusional boomerhons focus very hard on passing and why many have psychotic breaks and fall into echo chambers when they don't pass and need a reason to cope. When you pass you don't even need to worry about being a try hard anymore because you just blend in.

>>40104254
Almost all the ones who get spammed and look hot turn out to be filter frauders (or real women pretending to be trannies for attention).

>>40103939
for real, we've gone so far backwards. it's just acknowledging the reality of dysphoria. anything else is a half measure that will create more dysphoria

>>40104235
>A natal male on hrt is still far closer to other natal males not on hrt than to natal females.
How so?

>>40104286
Bone structure and organs, plus that study that showed trans women have more female-similar brains itself showed that trans women have brains more similar to other males than to females. It was just shifted in the female direction a bit but still closer to male. I'll see if I can find that one in archive in a bit.
Athletic performance too. It's not decimated by hrt like a lot of people want to believe. Strength doesn't suddenly drop to female levels from mere hormone use.

>>40104286
>>40104326
Here's that brain study I was talking about.
The mtf brains are relatively closer to the female pattern than the male brains are.
But they're closer to the male pattern than they are to the female pattern.
So more like slightly feminine males than they are like slightly masculine females.

>>40104355
it's over

>>40104365
Transitioning is still fine and mtfs can still be mtfs.
All I'm saying is everyone should try to be more realistic and less fantastical about how this stuff works.

>>40104385
iwnbaw but at least im not crazy is a complicated emotion

>>40102987
>Functionally, what's the difference?
Chromosomes, gametes, internal organs, bone density, muscle mass, and reproductive capability, all in the general case.
>inb4 the intersex/infertile/birth-defect edge case rabbit hole
Biological defects are not a category, and most trannies don't have a real intersex condition anyway.

>>40104326
>Bone structure
Determined by sex hormone makeup during puberty, and can be fixed by HRT at that time.
>organs
Wut?
>>40104326
>that study that showed trans women have more female-similar brains itself showed that trans women have brains more similar to other males than to females.
I'm pre-hrt, pre-srs, male-socialized manmoders, yeah. There's no study yet that compares these results to after 7+ years of non-hondose HRT and SRS.

>>40104385
>>40104355
>>40104365

This study didn't show if there was a difference between trans women on hrt and not. None of the trans women in it were in hrt.

For all we know sex hormone levels influence this and if you put a cis woman on testosterone her position on the chart may change more toward the male end.

If that were the case the gap would be narrower

>>40104647
>>40104661
If someone could get results showing mtfs had brains that looked more female than male we'd probably already have studies showing those results. That's just the best anyone's been able to do on that front so far. I don't think there are more female looking brains you can track down for an alternative study even if you limited to young starting mtfs who have been on hrt for a long time.

>>40104509
>Chromosomes
There are 46XY cishet women who've given birth and there's 46XX cishet men. Chromosomes don't affect anything once you've removed your gonads except your susceptibility to a couple rare blood diseases.
>gametes
my body does not and will never make gametes
>internal organs
Many cis women are born with no uterus.
>bone density muscle mass
Can be entirely affected by HRT.
>reproductive capability
I have no reproductive capability. Does this mean I'm no sex in your eyes?

>>40104694
Null hypothesis fallacy.

>>40104696
>Does this mean I'm no sex in your eyes?
It means you're a birth defect who's overwhemingly likely still classifiable as male or female unless you're the 0.002% which are true intersex.
You know this, which is why you play the bit.

>>40104661
i guess so. ive been on hrt for 7 years now and im def very different. of course, i am also 23 and not 16.

>>40104715
All trannies are birth defects, lmao.

>>40104741
Not how I'd frame it given most trannies aren't intersex, but you do you.

>>40104753
Trans persons' neurology is cross-sexed, at least the ones who experience sex dysphoria. You can insist and make up bogus excuses all you want but 7 year old me wasn't tempted to consider removing my pp with scissors because of "gender ideology" or whatever the heck you believe.

>>40104796
>Trans persons' neurology is cross-sexed
If you believe this, you should be able to detect and measure the neurology with quantitative means, like brain imagery. We can't. You don't need to coopt some intersex condition identity to be trans or have dysphoria. You also don't need to try to explode the sex categories to be trans.

>>40104097
Why are you downplaying the effects of estrogen? It does a HELL of a lot more than you're claiming here. And your hondose study means nothing to people who do DIY.

>>40103962
Except for like the one thing that actually matters to a sexual partner if you’re trying to date and not live alone the rest of your life. Sure.

>>40104987
if genitals are the "one thing that actually matters" your relationships have been so shallow they aren't worth the time they lasted

>>40104884
>you should be able to detect and measure the neurology with quantitative means, like brain imagery. We can't.
This >>40104355 and other studies have shown it before, though?
>You don't need to coopt some intersex condition identity to be trans or have dysphoria.
That's why I said cross, not inter, you dingus. Intersex people have different challenges than most trannies (such as nearly always getting nonconsensually mutilated as a baby) and that's why nearly every trans person gives intersex people a wide berth despite the parallels.
>You also don't need to try to explode the sex categories to be trans.
I've never seen but the most fringe enbies so this ridiculousness. Trans people existing doesn't magically make sex go away.

>>40104987
So you'd divorce your cishet wife if you learned that she was infertile? You're gross lol

>>40104928
It does a lot less than people keep meme-ing it to seem like it does. So much delusional hype.
>>40104884
Exactly. It's just greedy and dishonest to try to conflate wanting to be the opposite sex and doing a transition with being intersex.
I get the motivation for wanting the former to count as the latter since the latter would be a physical condition someone can pivot towards justifying a story in his or her head about genuinely being the opposite sex a la 'I needed surgery to """fix""" a pelvic area deformity' as opposed to 'I chose to get an extreme body mod done to remove my dick and fashion an artificial orifice in its place'. But that sort of thinking is so warped and dishonest.

>>40104753
>smaller, atypical/malformed, sterile genetalia
>lack of gonads and require outside hormonal supplementation
>mix of xx and xy physiological expression
That sounds like roughly similar to an intersex condition

>>40105033
ironically you're by far the most delusional person in this thread

>>40105078
Nah. I'm a radical sanity advocate.

>>40105106
what is your solution for the transsexual then?

>>40105131
My proposed solution is to be less delusional / more grounded, and to frame transition as body modding rather than literally becoming the opposite sex.
I'm opposed to saying things like "hrt makes you mostly like a woman." The reality is it makes you a more feminine male. But like if male is 1 and female is 10, hrt in most cases is going to bring you to a 2, not a 9. In extreme miracle cases you're looking at maybe a 4 to be super-generous. Probably too generous since I'd be saying at that point someone made it near halfway across the divide between men and women. Certainly no one is making it to anywhere near 10 where 10 is being a literal anatomical woman. The idea you inject some estradiol for a year and land at a 9 is so profoundly far off from reality, yet that's also something you hear people articulate on this topic all the time. And it just makes for an easy target when right wing chuds want to find clowns to pick on.

>>40105188
i mean id say im probably at at least a 6 or a 7 on that scale after being on hrt for 7 years. anyways you don't really address the full consequences of dysphoria. your solution literally only addresses hrt access